How to "balance"?

UrbWzrd

What you guys are thinking about "balancing"? While reading forums seems everybody hates nerfs and [snip] how some "things" are "overpowered" and should be "balanced" and ZOS seems - from an end user perspective - considering "balancing" as an act of nerfing things until they are flat.

[edited for baiting]

Zodiarkslayer

Easy Decision!

Standardized and homogenized sets require players to develop player skill.

Rewards for the Worthy, if you don't mind the pun.

Zulera301

without getting too political here, balance is a farce, the same way income inequality is. No matter how much effort you put into trying to make everybody perform equally well, there will always be some that rise above others, whether from excessive number crunching, exploiting vicious combinations, or in some cases, flat-out cheating the system (those in the 3rd group should obviously be punished according to the TOS, that being said), or something else.

or just go through with the removal of proc sets from PvP. sure that removes 90% of the sets from the scene, but then on the plus side, it would mean that people would have to base their success on their own character skills, coupled with their own player skill, rather than just waiting for venomous strike/crimson twilight/Zaan/etc to do all the work for them.

Vevvev

Buff everything!

If everything's OP... nothing will be.

Raegwyr

I liked the original idea of each class being specific counter to something. Sorc toolkit was ideal for killing nb. DK defence was a hard counter to sorc burst. Templar healing and purge was a counter to dk dots. Nb major evasion as counter to main templar damage skill and burst to counter hots.
This design was so smart and fun. It creates some op builds but you had the feeling that even if your char was weak against some builds it was great to fight others.
Now? Everything can be killed by stamden, classes are flat, only intresting ones are sorcs, necros and wardens while templars, nbs and dks are in second citizens category.
Why instead of inteligent and fun approach we got this spreadsheet everything and make class skills boring bs?

Marto

Buff the stuff that's too weak, nerf the stuff that's too strong, easy.

Nerfs are not bad. In a game like an MMO, nerfs are arguably a much better way to do things, as they alleviate power creep.

If ZOS didn't nerf anything ever again, they'd be forced to make every new dungeon and trial into increasingly punishing DPS races with no interesting mechanics.

Do you want dungeons to be designed with the assumption that people should reach 100k DPS? I sure as hell don't. No one should be getting that sort of damage, it borders on exploiting. So, the people that reach 100k DPS get nerfed.

Plus, the recent changes guarantee that players that deal low DPS (we're talking 10-20k) would have a much easier time improving. They lowered the ceiling, and raised the floor.

Joy_Division

It's not rocket science. Something is too strong, it gets nerfed. If something is too weak, it gets buffed. If something is too bland, it gets reformed.

UntouchableHunter

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Easy Decision!

Standardized and homogenized sets require players to develop player skill.

Rewards for the Worthy, if you don't mind the pun.

They already did that on the tests and we are seeing how the classes are unbalanced. No player skill at all with the same sets only some god classes and other so weak that are vanishing from Cyrodill.

Kolzki

Another vote here for buffing things that are too weak while nerfing things that are obviously over powered. No poll option for it though.

JinMori

I don't care at this point, the devs have already demonstrated time and time again what they are willing to do exactly, making threads like these is just wishful thinking, they don't care.

Sure the best solution would be to actually improve the game in a way that makes it more enjoyable and gives you a feeling of power progression, but that also requires a degree of competency, hard work, and money, maybe they have the competency, but they are certainly not willing to put the work or the money into it.

So f it, nerf it all to the ground, ruin the game, couldn't care less at this point.

The forums really do not matter, your opinion does not matter, what's true does not matter, all that matters is how much money and work the people making the game are willing to put into it. And the only thing that will actively change the game for the better is if people stop playing, but honestly, as i have seen this game is not doing as well as many make it out to be, considering that it has the elder scroll franchise at it's back, and for the last 3 or 4 years the trend has been quite stagnant, sure it's going up, but not that much, the actual player count really is nothing to write home about, considering the situation, and yea with covid and all, every game activity has been inflated so.....

Really not too great, but you know what, i don't care, if this game actually improves, good, if it doesn't oh well, another game for the memory hole.

DT-ARR

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's not rocket science. Something is too strong, it gets nerfed. If something is too weak, it gets buffed. If something is too bland, it gets reformed.

That is nice in theory - unfortunately this outlook is solely dependent on how patient you are as a player. Reality in this game is that probably 85% of sets / skills that underperform get left that way for years.

Literally years.

iksde

you cant just keep something strong if thats to strong and buff rest to this lvl of power

while most nerfs by zos are real overnerfs it would be enought buffs and nerfs at once to what what is needed but instead zos only way is just nerf sledgehammer without even looking if they are demolishing load-bearing wall/column keeping class/skill alive, useable

Marto

iksde wrote: »

you cant just keep something strong if thats to strong and buff rest to this lvl of power

Power creep.

MMOs have power creep. That's why you can't just "buff everything that's weak and never nerf anything". Because you'll end up causing more power creep.

The reason why overworld mobs and some normal dungeons are so easy is because ZOS has not done enough nerfs.

remosito

Marto wrote: »

iksde wrote: »

you cant just keep something strong if thats to strong and buff rest to this lvl of power

Power creep.

MMOs have power creep. That's why you can't just "buff everything that's weak and never nerf anything". Because you'll end up causing more power creep.

The reason why overworld mobs and some normal dungeons are so easy is because ZOS has not done enough nerfs.

While I agree with your first paragraph. I disagree with your second. Overland and some normal are that easy not because of insufficient nerfs but by design (make eso very solo casual skyrim quester friendly).

Thannazzar

PVP should be balanced using Battle Spirit calcs, not nerfs on individual sets or abilities.

preevious

The real answer is that it's almost impossible to balance everything.

Especially when PvP is in the equation.

IMO, the power creep is a normal thing, and thing shouldn't be nerfed much. Older dungeons/trials are becoming easy? That's normal. new gear, new level cap .. we all got stronger.

It's a good thing.

I wouldn't nerf much, because, even if old content would maybe become interresting again for a fraction of the community, it removes a bit of the player base's sense of progress and accomplishment.

Now, I won't brandish pitchforks if things gets nerfed. It's just not what I would do.

GrimTheReaper45

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Easy Decision!

Standardized and homogenized sets require players to develop player skill.

Rewards for the Worthy, if you don't mind the pun.

But it also makes things boring and makes it so there is one clear best at everything.

What I want to see is everything in the game have its own purpose. Whether it be class, skills, armor, traits, race. Each class should have its own playstyle for starters. Each race should do something the best too

ArcVelarian

Overall the thing that needs some TLC is Stamina Class Abilities. The play-ability difference right now between Stamina and Magicka isn't just a gap, it's a friggin canyon.

UrbWzrd

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Overall the thing that needs some TLC is Stamina Class Abilities. The play-ability difference right now between Stamina and Magicka isn't just a gap, it's a friggin canyon.

I began to change my stamblade to a magblade. Till now all I did was getting a staff to the hand of my wood elf, no CP change, no stat change, no set change, just to level destruction skill line. Immediately game became a FPS and I was with a riffle shooting mindless monsters.

Like you said, this must change.

Anyron

You forgot one option
ZOS doesnt care about player opinion
Which is example of this pts patch
For example argonian resist passives doesnt work, resourceful healing part is cut by battlespirit and argonian got nerf even when he was already one of the weakest race

3 weeks of testing and nothing has changed

selig_fay

Go back to the trinity drawing board and understand that there are attacking stats, there are defensive stats, but we forgot something.

Sahidom

When you adjust all skills to abide by the same mechanic but redressed for their own graphic appearance on damage, healing, defense, buff or debuff, and CC enabled powers THEN you can road map how to address class distinctions. When you have a clear balance of skill baselines than you work up from the base to distinguish them.

Balance is also an illusion that quickly dismantled class distinction and identity over the years. It is evident in the Warden Sub Attack that is cheaper than Haunting Curse but does the same thing. The NB Spectral Bow was passed to the Sorcerers. The DW Hidden Blade skill gained the NB Teleport Strike.

All of these actions while novel to offer something new are novice decision making processes. These choices further remove any class distinctions. Balancs stems from having clear playstyle distinctions with the classes; while weapon, guild, world and sets shift that playstyle; balance finds its place when you have a clear original point i.e. classes.

selig_fay

Sahidom wrote: »

When you adjust all skills to abide by the same mechanic but redressed for their own graphic appearance on damage, healing, defense, buff or debuff, and CC enabled powers THEN you can road map how to address class distinctions. When you have a clear balance of skill baselines than you work up from the base to distinguish them.

Balance is also an illusion that quickly dismantled class distinction and identity over the years. It is evident in the Warden Sub Attack that is cheaper than Haunting Curse but does the same thing. The NB Spectral Bow was passed to the Sorcerers. The DW Hidden Blade skill gained the NB Teleport Strike.

All of these actions while novel to offer something new are novice decision making processes. These choices further remove any class distinctions. Balancs stems from having clear playstyle distinctions with the classes; while weapon, guild, world and sets shift that playstyle; balance finds its place when you have a clear original point i.e. classes.

There are many more fundamental problems. For example, canceling animations. Abilities compete not only for cost and efficiency, but also for time. In fact, all games should have a rule that a character can only do 1 thing at a time, but when you do cancel animations, you do 2 things. And I think people don't realize how much this can break the balance.
So are procksets, too, a problem. If the prock is associated with a separate ability in the game, you can balance exactly the power of one ability. But when there is something that is activated "with a chance when you deal damage" then people are quite free to choose to increase the op things. Realy, I'd like to see sets that turn bad things into good things, not this.
I also see the problem in the lack of support stats. At the moment, a dps with a lot of magic and spell power differs from a healer only in sets and the healing output parameter. Yes, if we forget about debuffs (which tanks do best right now) and buffs (which won't replace lost damage anyway), dps can do almost the same amount of healing as a healer. This is why many games share the parameters of attack and support. And speaking of support, I think that the buff strength and buff duration parameters take healers further away from the DPS.
But, you can throw things at me, but I find trinity good in eso right now. Not perfect, but I haven't seen a perfect trinity anywhere. There's always a role that dominates 1 on 1, but that's OK, because trinity is about groups, not solos. A more balanced and coordinated group should win, so as not to allow a situation where one of the roles will be on the pages of history. And that's why it's important to separate attack, defense, and support.