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In defense of Dead-Water's Guile
redmacil
Soul Shriven
Time and time again it has been stated that a goal of the balance team is to raise the skill floor, lowering the skill gap, and ideally not raise the skill ceiling along with it. To make it easier for lower and middle tier players to do well, without also increasing how well exceptional players can perform. Dead-Water's Guile, as it is on live, fits that ideology to a T. It is powerful for lower and middle tier players, and niche for the very top players in the world.
Score pushing groups use DWG very rarely, either on a support in trash fights for war horns, or on a necro for colossus, but only on DPS if they specifically need an ultimate for a specific fight.
Groups that are not as incredibly high tier, those pushing trial HMs just trying to get a clear, use this set to great effect on DPS players, because of how strong the destruction staff ultimate is. They can do almost as good in trash fights between bosses as the pros, while the pros get limited use. That, as I understand it, is the goal of this "skill gap" perspective. DWG fits perfectly as to what ZOS has said they want to do.
And yet, they are nerfing it into the ground. It is generally toxic to have things that only proc when you deal a killing blow (Thrassian meta, magplars would use their execute on adds just to make sure they got a stack). If you want to nerf it, I suggest lowering the ultimate gained, rather than making it basically useless in trials.
Please reconsider what you're trying to do with this set. It'll push the set to be exclusively used in skyreach to grind and to generate ult before a trial (though there's that furnishing to replace that).
Score pushing groups use DWG very rarely, either on a support in trash fights for war horns, or on a necro for colossus, but only on DPS if they specifically need an ultimate for a specific fight.
Groups that are not as incredibly high tier, those pushing trial HMs just trying to get a clear, use this set to great effect on DPS players, because of how strong the destruction staff ultimate is. They can do almost as good in trash fights between bosses as the pros, while the pros get limited use. That, as I understand it, is the goal of this "skill gap" perspective. DWG fits perfectly as to what ZOS has said they want to do.
And yet, they are nerfing it into the ground. It is generally toxic to have things that only proc when you deal a killing blow (Thrassian meta, magplars would use their execute on adds just to make sure they got a stack). If you want to nerf it, I suggest lowering the ultimate gained, rather than making it basically useless in trials.
Please reconsider what you're trying to do with this set. It'll push the set to be exclusively used in skyreach to grind and to generate ult before a trial (though there's that furnishing to replace that).
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ShortBusSoul ShrivenCompletely agree, if ZOS wish to nerf the set then just lower the amount of ult gained. Making it so it only returns ult on kills renders the set useless.7
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Kiyakotari✭✭✭✭✭Especially since kills are so often only counted when the player is the one who deals the final blow...0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This set was one of, if not the most, wildly OP sets in ESO and it was only a matter of time until the nerf bat finally caught it.
That said, the set got completely dumpstered - and that's unfortunate.
A better compromise would have been something like: "Gain 5 ultimate when an enemy you have damaged recently dies. This bonus is doubled if you strike the killing blow."
That way, you could leave the base utility of this set (harvesting ultimate by damaging many opponents) while still encouraging players to finish off enemies themselves.9 -
redmacilSoul ShrivenYandereGirlfriend wrote: »This set was one of, if not the most, wildly OP sets in ESO and it was only a matter of time until the nerf bat finally caught it.
I disagree that it was as overpowered as you claim. In good hands, there are better trash setups that kill more efficiently than DWG.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »A better compromise would have been something like: "Gain 5 ultimate when an enemy you have damaged recently dies. This bonus is doubled if you strike the killing blow."
I disagree with this as it adds extra server calculations, and also will still lead to the in-fighting I mentioned in my original post.0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »This set was one of, if not the most, wildly OP sets in ESO and it was only a matter of time until the nerf bat finally caught it.
I disagree that it was as overpowered as you claim. In good hands, there are better trash setups that kill more efficiently than DWG.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »A better compromise would have been something like: "Gain 5 ultimate when an enemy you have damaged recently dies. This bonus is doubled if you strike the killing blow."
I disagree with this as it adds extra server calculations, and also will still lead to the in-fighting I mentioned in my original post.
I'm sorry, but nobody can credibly claim that the set wasn't OP.
And in PvP, it was the uncontested BiS for any Stamina group (or Volendrung!) build.
That said, the set was also extremely fun to use and ZOS could take a valuable lesson in game design from developers that successfully manage to balance around overpowered sets and abilities rather than nerfing every divergent element into dust.0 -
Foolebuilt_33✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »This set was one of, if not the most, wildly OP sets in ESO and it was only a matter of time until the nerf bat finally caught it.
I disagree that it was as overpowered as you claim. In good hands, there are better trash setups that kill more efficiently than DWG.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »A better compromise would have been something like: "Gain 5 ultimate when an enemy you have damaged recently dies. This bonus is doubled if you strike the killing blow."
I disagree with this as it adds extra server calculations, and also will still lead to the in-fighting I mentioned in my original post.
I'm sorry, but nobody can credibly claim that the set wasn't OP.
And in PvP, it was the uncontested BiS for any Stamina group (or Volendrung!) build.
That said, the set was also extremely fun to use and ZOS could take a valuable lesson in game design from developers that successfully manage to balance around overpowered sets and abilities rather than nerfing every divergent element into dust.
No no he's right there are sets that would yield more damage in trash without a doubt but dwg was used more so by low tier and mid tier people in trials consistently where as in end game groups would use it only when needed it definitely helped close the gap from the ceiling to the floor on those low and mid grade groups
Pvp is a whole nother story0 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Foolebuilt_33 wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »This set was one of, if not the most, wildly OP sets in ESO and it was only a matter of time until the nerf bat finally caught it.
I disagree that it was as overpowered as you claim. In good hands, there are better trash setups that kill more efficiently than DWG.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »A better compromise would have been something like: "Gain 5 ultimate when an enemy you have damaged recently dies. This bonus is doubled if you strike the killing blow."
I disagree with this as it adds extra server calculations, and also will still lead to the in-fighting I mentioned in my original post.
I'm sorry, but nobody can credibly claim that the set wasn't OP.
And in PvP, it was the uncontested BiS for any Stamina group (or Volendrung!) build.
That said, the set was also extremely fun to use and ZOS could take a valuable lesson in game design from developers that successfully manage to balance around overpowered sets and abilities rather than nerfing every divergent element into dust.
No no he's right there are sets that would yield more damage in trash without a doubt but dwg was used more so by low tier and mid tier people in trials consistently where as in end game groups would use it only when needed it definitely helped close the gap from the ceiling to the floor on those low and mid grade groups
Pvp is a whole nother story
In that case, they're missing the forest for the trees.
Perhaps it wasn't OP on Craglorn groups trying to get their first clears but for high-end trials and PvP the set was absolutely broken good. And it wasn't nerfed on account of the Craglorn groups, it was nerfed on account of the latter two use-cases.0 -
Foolebuilt_33✭✭✭YandereGirlfriend wrote: »Foolebuilt_33 wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »YandereGirlfriend wrote: »This set was one of, if not the most, wildly OP sets in ESO and it was only a matter of time until the nerf bat finally caught it.
I disagree that it was as overpowered as you claim. In good hands, there are better trash setups that kill more efficiently than DWG.YandereGirlfriend wrote: »A better compromise would have been something like: "Gain 5 ultimate when an enemy you have damaged recently dies. This bonus is doubled if you strike the killing blow."
I disagree with this as it adds extra server calculations, and also will still lead to the in-fighting I mentioned in my original post.
I'm sorry, but nobody can credibly claim that the set wasn't OP.
And in PvP, it was the uncontested BiS for any Stamina group (or Volendrung!) build.
That said, the set was also extremely fun to use and ZOS could take a valuable lesson in game design from developers that successfully manage to balance around overpowered sets and abilities rather than nerfing every divergent element into dust.
No no he's right there are sets that would yield more damage in trash without a doubt but dwg was used more so by low tier and mid tier people in trials consistently where as in end game groups would use it only when needed it definitely helped close the gap from the ceiling to the floor on those low and mid grade groups
Pvp is a whole nother story
In that case, they're missing the forest for the trees.
Perhaps it wasn't OP on Craglorn groups trying to get their first clears but for high-end trials and PvP the set was absolutely broken good. And it wasn't nerfed on account of the Craglorn groups, it was nerfed on account of the latter two use-cases.
It wasn't really op for high end trials either the only thing it literally helped in was trash pulls... which let's be honest there is no trash pulls in any trials that the high end community needs help with whereas for these low end and mid tier that actually struggle with trash pulls like in vka it helped tremendously with1 -
noneatza✭✭✭Yeah nerfing DWG into becoming obsolete isn't a good idea, the suggestion of "get x ultimate when an enemy recently dies, double when you strike the killing blow" is very good and i like it.
As for DWG being super OP in high end groups, i strongly disagree, there are other setups which do much better and most pulls die fast enough that you have 100% collosus uptime if you have 2-3 necros in your group. So as OP said, DWG was definitely not "meta" in high tier groups.1