Bretons could use a racial passive buff

BlissfulDeluge

Imperials are getting a 6% cost redux, up from 3%.

That's fine, except, Bretons have a 7% cost redux for magicka only.

Could the cost redux be bumped up to 9%, to make Bretons stand out more as a magicka spec?

Or, alternatively, can the magicka recovery buff of Spell Attunement be increased from 130 to 500, or even 400?

That way, Bretons will still remain an optimal choice for magicka cost reduction, without leaving Imperials in the dust.

And before ye bring up the 2000 max magicka and spell resistance, those are not relevant, as Imperials also get 2000 stamina and 2000 max health.

kojou

I agree that it would be more consistent to have the cost reduction closer to 9 given the way cost reduction was changed in a previous patch. The Seducer armor set was buffed at that time, but not the Breton passive.

xAlucardx92

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Or, alternatively, can the magicka recovery buff of Spell Attunement be increased from 130 to 500, or even 400?

Pls make my racial the best in the game......

ESO_Nightingale

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Imperials are getting a 6% cost redux, up from 3%.

That's fine, except, Bretons have a 7% cost redux for magicka only.

Could the cost redux be bumped up to 9%, to make Bretons stand out more as a magicka spec?

Or, alternatively, can the magicka recovery buff of Spell Attunement be increased from 130 to 500, or even 400?

That way, Bretons will still remain an optimal choice for magicka cost reduction, without leaving Imperials in the dust.

And before ye bring up the 2000 max magicka and spell resistance, those are not relevant, as Imperials also get 2000 stamina and 2000 max health.

500 and 400 are absolutely huge. I'd even say 200 would be too much.

BlissfulDeluge

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Imperials are getting a 6% cost redux, up from 3%.

That's fine, except, Bretons have a 7% cost redux for magicka only.

Could the cost redux be bumped up to 9%, to make Bretons stand out more as a magicka spec?

Or, alternatively, can the magicka recovery buff of Spell Attunement be increased from 130 to 500, or even 400?

That way, Bretons will still remain an optimal choice for magicka cost reduction, without leaving Imperials in the dust.

And before ye bring up the 2000 max magicka and spell resistance, those are not relevant, as Imperials also get 2000 stamina and 2000 max health.

500 and 400 are absolutely huge. I'd even say 200 would be too much.

The problem is, compared to Imperials in the current PTS iteration? Bretons are getting gimped.

Heck, I'd be cool with 6% overall cost redux, 2000 magicka and 2000 health, too. That way, Bretons would work as a magicka spec, and Imperials would work as a stamina spec.

Vizirith

I think Bretons are fine. 2310 sp resists, and doubled when burned, chilled, or concussed makes up for some of the survivability 2k health translates to. 7% mag cost reduction and 130 mag recovery does still make it a very good option for magicka roles compared to the imperial 6% overall cost reduction. Not to mention that cost reduction % modifiers lose valua the more you have, bretons also having 130 mag recovery will go up with light armor, class passives and buffs.

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Banana

I'm a happy Breton

Sahidom

I was looking at the two racial passives on which one would be better for a vampire. I feel the Imperial would be better because the -6% effects everything i.e. stamina, magicka and health costs.

The Bretons need a racial passive buff. Maybe boost their gained Spell Resistance more since its reliant on a status effect. For example, this could also lend themselves to be better heavy armor users too - at the sacrifice of martial prowess passives e.g. damage or weapon skill cost reductions, or stamina related resource management passives. Versus magic wielding opponents.

Vevvev

Banana wrote: »

I'm a happy Breton

Same, as long as the buffs are lore friendly I'm happy to.

ESO_Nightingale

Vizirith wrote: »

I think Bretons are fine. 2310 sp resists, and doubled when burned, chilled, or concussed makes up for some of the survivability 2k health translates to. 7% mag cost reduction and 130 mag recovery does still make it a very good option for magicka roles compared to the imperial 6% overall cost reduction. Not to mention that cost reduction % modifiers lose valua the more you have, bretons also having 130 mag recovery will go up with light armor, class passives and buffs.

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Exactly i think breton was always good. I use it on all of my mag builds because the sustain is fantastic.

dwig

Vizirith wrote: »

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.

Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).

Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).

One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.

That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.

GoodFella146

dwig wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.

Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).

Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).

One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.

That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.

Lol

Olupajmibanan

dwig wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.

Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).

Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).

One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.

That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.

Usual ranged spammable cost is 2700.

Apply 7 light pieces (new meta for a DD after armor changes). That reduces the FP cost to 2322 ( 2700 * ( 1 - 7 * 0,02 )).

Apply Breton passive on top of Light armor passive. That reduces the cost to 2159 ( 2322 * ( 1 - 0,07 )).

First 14% of magicka cost reduction caused flat cost reduction of 378 (or every 1% of cost reduction from light armor passive reduced the cost by 27).
Next 7% of magicka cost reduction caused another flat cost reduction of 163 (or every 1% of cost reduction from Breton reduced the cost by 23,285).

And this is certainly diminishing returns, the more % cost reduction you bring, the less flat cost reduction you will actually see.

preevious

Yeah, no.

High-elves have to be buffed.They are underperforming.
Please add 10k max magicka, and 1k spell damage to altmer.
And maybe nerf the other racials, as they are all overperforming.

No?
Hmmmm, I guess it must be fine, then.

Seriously, now, bretons have excellent racials, already. Up there for magicka builds with altmers.
If you wanna buff something, pick nord, redguard or argonian instead.

BlissfulDeluge

Vizirith wrote: »

I think Bretons are fine. 2310 sp resists, and doubled when burned, chilled, or concussed makes up for some of the survivability 2k health translates to. 7% mag cost reduction and 130 mag recovery does still make it a very good option for magicka roles compared to the imperial 6% overall cost reduction. Not to mention that cost reduction % modifiers lose valua the more you have, bretons also having 130 mag recovery will go up with light armor, class passives and buffs.

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Thing is, the upcoming patch also makes it so that the status effects won't be applied to you by pve mobs unless specified. That means that the double resistance to status effects will be a pvp effect, at best.

How exactly does 2310 spell resistance match up against 2k health? Genuine question.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

dwig wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.

Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).

Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).

One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.

That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.

Usual ranged spammable cost is 2700.

Apply 7 light pieces (new meta for a DD after armor changes). That reduces the FP cost to 2322 ( 2700 * ( 1 - 7 * 0,02 )).

Apply Breton passive on top of Light armor passive. That reduces the cost to 2159 ( 2322 * ( 1 - 0,07 )).

First 14% of magicka cost reduction caused flat cost reduction of 378 (or every 1% of cost reduction from light armor passive reduced the cost by 27).
Next 7% of magicka cost reduction caused another flat cost reduction of 163 (or every 1% of cost reduction from Breton reduced the cost by 23,285).

And this is certainly diminishing returns, the more % cost reduction you bring, the less flat cost reduction you will actually see.

If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.

If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?

That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.

Mayrael

With new patch I'll be no longer Breton that's sure (In current PTS state), there are way better options now. So yup, I wouldn't mind some slight buff.

Ragnaroek93

Bretons are fine, it's Imperials who got overbuffed. You compare them to Bretons because when you look at the cost reduction it's easy to see that Imperial is flat out better but objectively the race is ahead of every other race now. Nothing else to expect tho, the paywall classes are broken and now the paywall race will be broken too. They're milking this game so hard...

Scardan

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Bretons are fine, it's Imperials who got overbuffed. You compare them to Bretons because when you look at the cost reduction it's easy to see that Imperial is flat out better but objectively the race is ahead of every other race now. Nothing else to expect tho, the paywall classes are broken and now the paywall race will be broken too. They're milking this game so hard...

I disagree. Breton is better magica race then imperial, just compare the passives. With new Red Diamond.

Xarc

bretons vs imperial.
7% cost redux for magicka-only VS 6% for all

You got a point.

dwig

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

dwig wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.

Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).

Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).

One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.

That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.

Usual ranged spammable cost is 2700.

Apply 7 light pieces (new meta for a DD after armor changes). That reduces the FP cost to 2322 ( 2700 * ( 1 - 7 * 0,02 )).

Apply Breton passive on top of Light armor passive. That reduces the cost to 2159 ( 2322 * ( 1 - 0,07 )).

First 14% of magicka cost reduction caused flat cost reduction of 378 (or every 1% of cost reduction from light armor passive reduced the cost by 27).
Next 7% of magicka cost reduction caused another flat cost reduction of 163 (or every 1% of cost reduction from Breton reduced the cost by 23,285).

And this is certainly diminishing returns, the more % cost reduction you bring, the less flat cost reduction you will actually see.

You are missing the forest for the trees... Yes, you get diminishing returns in terms of the reduction to spell cost. However, what is actually important is the number of times you can cast the spell before running out of magicka.

Lets assume a magicka pool of 36k and then use your numbers for cost.

No reduction: 13.3 casts
7 light: 15.5 casts
7 light + breton: 16.7 casts

You get 0.157 casts per % for the first 14%
You get 0.17 casts per % for the next 7%

That means that for the thing that actually matters (how many times we can cast an ability before running out of magicka) we get increasing returns.

JobooAGS

dwig wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

dwig wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.

Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).

Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).

One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.

That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.

Usual ranged spammable cost is 2700.

Apply 7 light pieces (new meta for a DD after armor changes). That reduces the FP cost to 2322 ( 2700 * ( 1 - 7 * 0,02 )).

Apply Breton passive on top of Light armor passive. That reduces the cost to 2159 ( 2322 * ( 1 - 0,07 )).

First 14% of magicka cost reduction caused flat cost reduction of 378 (or every 1% of cost reduction from light armor passive reduced the cost by 27).
Next 7% of magicka cost reduction caused another flat cost reduction of 163 (or every 1% of cost reduction from Breton reduced the cost by 23,285).

And this is certainly diminishing returns, the more % cost reduction you bring, the less flat cost reduction you will actually see.

You are missing the forest for the trees... Yes, you get diminishing returns in terms of the reduction to spell cost. However, what is actually important is the number of times you can cast the spell before running out of magicka.

Lets assume a magicka pool of 36k and then use your numbers for cost.

No reduction: 13.3 casts
7 light: 15.5 casts
7 light + breton: 16.7 casts

You get 0.157 casts per % for the first 14%
You get 0.17 casts per % for the next 7%

That means that for the thing that actually matters (how many times we can cast an ability before running out of magicka) we get increasing returns.

Not to be that guy, but do those numbers include regeneration?

dwig

Regeneration won't change the basic conclusion that cost reduction has increasing returns.

Olupajmibanan

dwig wrote: »

Regeneration won't change the basic conclusion that cost reduction has increasing returns.

It will. Let's assume 1600 final mag recovery (after scaling) within your 36k magicka example and my 2700 cost Force Pulse.

0 light, no Breton
2700 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1900 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 18 seconds.

7 light, no Breton
2322 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1522 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 23 seconds.

7 light, Breton without Spell Attunement
2159 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1359 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 26 seconds.

By default, in this scenario you have "fuel" for 18 seconds (or 18 FP casts in your language). 7 light pieces will give you "fuel" for 5 more seconds (5 more FPs). Adding Breton on top of that will give you "fuel" for another 3 more seconds (3 more FPs). Diminishing returns.

dwig

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

dwig wrote: »

Regeneration won't change the basic conclusion that cost reduction has increasing returns.

It will. Let's assume 1600 final mag recovery (after scaling) within your 36k magicka example and my 2700 cost Force Pulse.

0 light, no Breton
2700 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1900 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 18 seconds.

7 light, no Breton
2322 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1522 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 23 seconds.

7 light, Breton without Spell Attunement
2159 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1359 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 26 seconds.

By default, in this scenario you have "fuel" for 18 seconds (or 18 FP casts in your language). 7 light pieces will give you "fuel" for 5 more seconds (5 more FPs). Adding Breton on top of that will give you "fuel" for another 3 more seconds (3 more FPs). Diminishing returns.

You forgot that Breton only gives an additional 7%... So the first 14% from light armor gives you an addtional 5 seconds, which translates to 0.357 seconds per 1%. The 7% from Breton passive gives you another 3 seconds, at 0.429 seconds per 1%.

Increasing returns...

Olupajmibanan

dwig wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

dwig wrote: »

Regeneration won't change the basic conclusion that cost reduction has increasing returns.

It will. Let's assume 1600 final mag recovery (after scaling) within your 36k magicka example and my 2700 cost Force Pulse.

0 light, no Breton
2700 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1900 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 18 seconds.

7 light, no Breton
2322 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1522 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 23 seconds.

7 light, Breton without Spell Attunement
2159 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1359 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 26 seconds.

By default, in this scenario you have "fuel" for 18 seconds (or 18 FP casts in your language). 7 light pieces will give you "fuel" for 5 more seconds (5 more FPs). Adding Breton on top of that will give you "fuel" for another 3 more seconds (3 more FPs). Diminishing returns.

You forgot that Breton only gives an additional 7%... So the first 14% from light armor gives you an addtional 5 seconds, which translates to 0.357 seconds per 1%. The 7% from Breton passive gives you another 3 seconds, at 0.429 seconds per 1%.

Increasing returns...

Imperial example with 7 light (2182 cost)
26 casts before going OOM, unable to cast another FP.

By the "per unit" logic, Imperials should be able to cast less than Bretons (Imperial passive is 1% weaker and the increasing returns theory should put Bretons even more ahead and make them clear winners) however they get the same, simply because reality is different from laboratory calculations, and forces us to scale results down to nearest integer (as non-integer numbers make no sense in reality, you can't get fraction of a cast).

Even if the increasing returns theory is true, it does not have any effect on reality making it meaningless.

dwig

I think that Breton should get a buff too, for pretty much the same reasons that others have mentioned in this thread (7% for JUST magicka is weak compared to 6% to everything).

I was just pointing out that cost reduction is not diminishing returns, since that's a pet peeve of mine.

if people understood this point better then the nords would not have lost the best defensive passive in the game... 6% damage reduction. Everybody whined about it because it *looks* like diminishing returns, but for exactly the same reasons I outlined about it turns out to be a much stronger defensive passive than the bonus armor they get now.

Anyway, I'll get off my soap box now, since that is water under the bridge.

JobooAGS

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

dwig wrote: »

Regeneration won't change the basic conclusion that cost reduction has increasing returns.

It will. Let's assume 1600 final mag recovery (after scaling) within your 36k magicka example and my 2700 cost Force Pulse.

0 light, no Breton
2700 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1900 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 18 seconds.

7 light, no Breton
2322 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1522 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 23 seconds.

7 light, Breton without Spell Attunement
2159 magicka drain per second
800 magicka gain per second
1359 total magicka drain per second, you will be OOM, unable to cast another FP in 26 seconds.

By default, in this scenario you have "fuel" for 18 seconds (or 18 FP casts in your language). 7 light pieces will give you "fuel" for 5 more seconds (5 more FPs). Adding Breton on top of that will give you "fuel" for another 3 more seconds (3 more FPs). Diminishing returns.

You missed the recovery light armor provides

ealdwin

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.

If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?

That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.

It may be balanced as opposed to Imperials, and create a dichotomy between Imperial = Stamina and Breton = Magicka.

However, in order to grant Breton 2K Health, they would likely end up losing the Spell Resistance, which would be contrary to the lore of the race. In lore, Bretons are a combination of the magickal prowess of their elven ancestors and the hardiness of their mannish ancestors. This has nearly always resulted in a gain to the ability to resist damage from or shrug off Magicka based attacks.

IMO, Bretons are fairly fine where they are, with their passives reflecting their lore pretty well within the confines of ESO's system (as opposed to the single player games).

BUT. If there were any changes that could be made to the Breton passives, it would be to better reflect the influence of the Willpower attribute from previous games. In this change, the Spell Resist passive would no longer provide situational extra resists, but remain at a flat static gain. Then, Bretons would gain either a slight Max Stamina Bonus or a slight Stamina Recovery Bonus (reflecting the influence of Willpower on Fatigue).

Vizirith

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I think Bretons are fine. 2310 sp resists, and doubled when burned, chilled, or concussed makes up for some of the survivability 2k health translates to. 7% mag cost reduction and 130 mag recovery does still make it a very good option for magicka roles compared to the imperial 6% overall cost reduction. Not to mention that cost reduction % modifiers lose valua the more you have, bretons also having 130 mag recovery will go up with light armor, class passives and buffs.

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Thing is, the upcoming patch also makes it so that the status effects won't be applied to you by pve mobs unless specified. That means that the double resistance to status effects will be a pvp effect, at best.

How exactly does 2310 spell resistance match up against 2k health? Genuine question.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

dwig wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.

Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).

Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).

One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.

That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.

Usual ranged spammable cost is 2700.

Apply 7 light pieces (new meta for a DD after armor changes). That reduces the FP cost to 2322 ( 2700 * ( 1 - 7 * 0,02 )).

Apply Breton passive on top of Light armor passive. That reduces the cost to 2159 ( 2322 * ( 1 - 0,07 )).

First 14% of magicka cost reduction caused flat cost reduction of 378 (or every 1% of cost reduction from light armor passive reduced the cost by 27).
Next 7% of magicka cost reduction caused another flat cost reduction of 163 (or every 1% of cost reduction from Breton reduced the cost by 23,285).

And this is certainly diminishing returns, the more % cost reduction you bring, the less flat cost reduction you will actually see.

If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.

If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?

That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.

Both health and resists are functionally both survivability mechanics. Let's say there is an incoming 5k magicka dmg hit. A breton would take 4650 dmg (presuming 0 resist and are affected by a magic status effect doubling resist passive). An Imperial would take 5000 dmg but have 2k more health, allowing you to take more damage. They are not really competitive comparatively and resists scale worse as there are no real resist % bonuses compared to health. They simply are both survival based passives.

You don't really want to just start making races perfectly offset each other. Then it just gets boring. Adding more recovery would be too powerful, wood elves only get 258 which is basically 2x what bretons get but no 7% stam cost reduction.

BlissfulDeluge

ealdwin wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.

If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?

That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.

It may be balanced as opposed to Imperials, and create a dichotomy between Imperial = Stamina and Breton = Magicka.

However, in order to grant Breton 2K Health, they would likely end up losing the Spell Resistance, which would be contrary to the lore of the race. In lore, Bretons are a combination of the magickal prowess of their elven ancestors and the hardiness of their mannish ancestors. This has nearly always resulted in a gain to the ability to resist damage from or shrug off Magicka based attacks.

IMO, Bretons are fairly fine where they are, with their passives reflecting their lore pretty well within the confines of ESO's system (as opposed to the single player games).

BUT. If there were any changes that could be made to the Breton passives, it would be to better reflect the influence of the Willpower attribute from previous games. In this change, the Spell Resist passive would no longer provide situational extra resists, but remain at a flat static gain. Then, Bretons would gain either a slight Max Stamina Bonus or a slight Stamina Recovery Bonus (reflecting the influence of Willpower on Fatigue).

Vizirith wrote: »

BlissfulDelusions wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I think Bretons are fine. 2310 sp resists, and doubled when burned, chilled, or concussed makes up for some of the survivability 2k health translates to. 7% mag cost reduction and 130 mag recovery does still make it a very good option for magicka roles compared to the imperial 6% overall cost reduction. Not to mention that cost reduction % modifiers lose valua the more you have, bretons also having 130 mag recovery will go up with light armor, class passives and buffs.

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Thing is, the upcoming patch also makes it so that the status effects won't be applied to you by pve mobs unless specified. That means that the double resistance to status effects will be a pvp effect, at best.

How exactly does 2310 spell resistance match up against 2k health? Genuine question.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

dwig wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

I can see Imperial being in a better spot than bretons in a heavy armor mag build because HA has no diminshing returns on overall cost reduction, unlike being in more light armor with light armor cost reduction for break free, sprint and roll dodge.

Slightly off topic, but the returns to more cost reduction are INCREASING, not decreasing. Remember, what matters is the number of times you can cast before you run out of mana/stam or whatever.

Let say you can cast an ability 100 times without any cost reduction. Apply a 4% reduction and you can cast it 100/0.96 = 104.16 times (basically 4 extra times, which is probably what you would have guessed without the math).

Now apply another 4% cost reduction. 104.16/0.96 = 108.5 (notice that you also get for more here, but its a slightly larger remainder).

One more 4%. 108.5/0.96 = 113.02 (which means you get FIVE extra casts this time). Increasing returns, not diminishing returns.

That's why ZoS is so stingy with cost reduction.

Usual ranged spammable cost is 2700.

Apply 7 light pieces (new meta for a DD after armor changes). That reduces the FP cost to 2322 ( 2700 * ( 1 - 7 * 0,02 )).

Apply Breton passive on top of Light armor passive. That reduces the cost to 2159 ( 2322 * ( 1 - 0,07 )).

First 14% of magicka cost reduction caused flat cost reduction of 378 (or every 1% of cost reduction from light armor passive reduced the cost by 27).
Next 7% of magicka cost reduction caused another flat cost reduction of 163 (or every 1% of cost reduction from Breton reduced the cost by 23,285).

And this is certainly diminishing returns, the more % cost reduction you bring, the less flat cost reduction you will actually see.

If adding more cost redux has diminishing returns, then I think adding more recovery to them would be better. I know some of you guys disagree with me, that's cool, but I think it would be most balanced to make Bretons a magicka counter to the new iteration of Imperials.

If Bretons and Imperials get 2k health each, as well as 2k of magicka or stamina, and a 6% overall skill redux cost?

That's balanced, and lore-wise, Bretons would still be more apt as spellcasters.

Both health and resists are functionally both survivability mechanics. Let's say there is an incoming 5k magicka dmg hit. A breton would take 4650 dmg (presuming 0 resist and are affected by a magic status effect doubling resist passive). An Imperial would take 5000 dmg but have 2k more health, allowing you to take more damage. They are not really competitive comparatively and resists scale worse as there are no real resist % bonuses compared to health. They simply are both survival based passives.

You don't really want to just start making races perfectly offset each other. Then it just gets boring. Adding more recovery would be too powerful, wood elves only get 258 which is basically 2x what bretons get but no 7% stam cost reduction.

I hear you both, and I think if, we are to stay lorefriendly by sticking with the resists, then it would be fair to at least give Bretons higher spell resistance, or higher magicka. Personally I would prefer a "specializations" system where you have one racial passive for each race (faster swimming for Argonians, Nords resistant to cold, Bretons resistant to spells etc), and a set of passives to choose from, but that's just a pipedream. Still, I don't think the current magic resistance that the Bretons have weighs well against the 2k health that the Imperials get, and I think that 7% magicka redux vs 6% all skill redux is rather unbalanced. If the magicka redux was higher, then we would be talking, but just 1% more isn't all that great, imo, when it only affects one attribute.

WrathOfInnos

@dwig I see what you’re saying about additional cost reduction having more impact, but I believe you get more benefit from stacking other methods of sustain on top of cost reduction.

Here’s an example, a build has Magicka drain of 2100 mag/s and is deciding between race changing to Breton or wearing Grundwulf. Grund gives a flat 140 Magicka/s, while Breton’s 7% cost reduction would save 0.07 x 2100 = 147 Magicka/s. So in this case the cost reduction is better (ignoring the fact that Breton gets some recovery too for simplicity).

Now this same build slots 7 Light Armor to receive 14% cost reduction, resulting in their Magicka drain dropping to 1806 mag/s. Again they want to choose between Grundwulf’s 140 mag/s or Breton’s 7% cost reduction. Now 0.07 x 1806 = 126 mag/s, so the cost reduction is significantly worse than the flat restore from Grundwulf.

I believe this is what people are referring to when they say additional cost reduction has diminishing returns. It results in lower mag/s, and is quickly outclassed by other sources of sustain (that aren’t multiplicative). Maybe in a purely mathematical definition this would be viewed as flat sustain getting increasing returns at a higher rate than cost reduction, when stacking cost reduction. Relative to other options, it’s easier to just call cost reduction diminishing IMO. The more sources you have, the less each one affects Magicka/s.