Heavy Attack builds in CP 2.0

FrancisCrawford

I didn't notice anything in the CP revamp that specifically buffs basic attack damage.

Are heavy attack builds getting nerfed ... well, are they getting nerfed more HEAVILY than other builds are?

olsborg

Theres no cp in 2.0 that boosts Light or Heavy attacks, as far as I could see.

FrancisCrawford

olsborg wrote: »

Theres no cp in 2.0 that boosts Light or Heavy attacks, as far as I could see.

And I can't think of anything that makes up for that in a way that would keep this from being a nerf even relative to other things that are also getting nerfed.

That said, it's probably worth rechecking to see whether pure AoE or pure DoT builds have advantages over more mixed ones, perhaps due to the star-slotting mechanic.

Zodiarkslayer

Yes there are no specific cp jodes for Light or heavy attacks any more. I have to reroll my main quester/ adventurer because I'll have about 40% less damage output.

Luckily, there are alternatives to HA builds!

ealdwin

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Theres no cp in 2.0 that boosts Light or Heavy attacks, as far as I could see.

That said, it's probably worth rechecking to see whether pure AoE or pure DoT builds have advantages over more mixed ones, perhaps due to the star-slotting mechanic.

This is something I've been curious about. Initial glance over doesn't reveal anything too promising, but I could be missing the glaringly obvious. Admittedly, I'm not the best at theory-crafting.

That being said, I have grown kind of tired of most rotations involving hitting the same button more than 3 or 4 times in a row, and would not mind a reemergence of DoT builds as a viable alternative.

E-Zekiel

I feel like this is an oversight. If it's deliberate, it's a mistake imo.

itscompton

I tested LA's on the basic mob enemies at the farm outside Mournhold.

My sorc on live with 52 points in the la/ha CP star and buffed with major sorcery does 5700-6000 non-crit damage per LA.

My 810 template sorc on PTS is wearing the same gear but has precise instead of Nirnhoned (to keep my crit% up) on his staff. Despite that the PTS build still winds up with around 1200 more SD plus 1500 more max magic when buffed.

But the 1200 extra spell damage and 1500 max magic does not come close to making up for the loss of the CP buff on LA's as my PTS sorc only hits for between 4500-4700 non-crit damage per LA.

I also have the direct damage star maxed out and slotted on PTS but still lose a big chunk of damage on LA'/HA's.

katorga

They also adjusted the infiltrator sets to only activate in combat, not sure how that would impact the build.

Grianasteri

If my gorgeous, Heavy Attack MagDK has just been nerfed, I wont be happy. Ive been really, really enjoy playing that in Cyrodiil.

It is excellent for applying pressure in groups, it kicks out high, sustained damage over time on targets, which is very welcome while others are putting in the more technical work to bring down those 1vX types.

I have severe bursitis, repetitive strain and carpel tunnel in my shoulder, elbow and wrist... the simplicity of a heavy attack build is a god send for me to give me a rest.

Plus I am getting on a bit, my fast twitch and reactions just arnt what they used to be back when I almost went pro with Call of Duty! Give me a break!

zvavi

every. single. stat from sets. got nerfed. by either diminishing returns. or flat out nerf. heavy attack sets relatively stayed the same. so u got hit by cp. so did everything.

amir412

Good there isn't. It's like a proc build but worse.

FrancisCrawford

zvavi wrote: »

every. single. stat from sets. got nerfed. by either diminishing returns. or flat out nerf. heavy attack sets relatively stayed the same. so u got hit by cp. so did everything.

My point is that Heavy Attack builds had an EXTRA buff from CP that other builds didn't. And now they won't have that.

Lalothen

Having tested my HA magsorc on the PTS, the DPS loss isn't really any greater than the losses being seen on other DPS builds. The thing to remember is that we're getting extra base spell power which impacts base heavy tic dmg, and we consequently get a larger spell power buff from Sorcery.

Going to test my HA MagDK today and monitor staff tic dmg, since I can currently achieve 52k crits on live. That should give some idea of DPS loss from heavies at the high end of the spectrum.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

My point is that Heavy Attack builds had an EXTRA buff from CP that other builds didn't. And now they won't have that.

What extra buff is this? Light attacks benefit from Staff Expert too, and plenty of builds put points into it to further buff light attacks given they're the top dmg source for virtually any mag DPS that weaves well.

FrancisCrawford

Lalothen wrote: »

Having tested my HA magsorc on the PTS, the DPS loss isn't really any greater than the losses being seen on other DPS builds. The thing to remember is that we're getting extra base spell power which impacts base heavy tic dmg, and we consequently get a larger spell power buff from Sorcery.

Going to test my HA MagDK today and monitor staff tic dmg, since I can currently achieve 52k crits on live. That should give some idea of DPS loss from heavies at the high end of the spectrum.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

My point is that Heavy Attack builds had an EXTRA buff from CP that other builds didn't. And now they won't have that.

What extra buff is this? Light attacks benefit from Staff Expert too, and plenty of builds put points into it to further buff light attacks given they're the top dmg source for virtually any mag DPS that weaves well.

Is it not the case that the fraction of damage from basic attacks in a heavy attack build is well higher than the fraction of damage from light attacks in a normal build?

If I'm wrong about that then, yes, my premise is largely wrong.

Lalothen

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Is it not the case that the fraction of damage from basic attacks in a heavy attack build is well higher than the fraction of damage from light attacks in a normal build?

If I'm wrong about that then, yes, my premise is largely wrong.

Top end players achieve in the region of 20% (give or take a few % based on the build) of total damage output from basic attacks on light attack mag builds, which is around 10-15% less than basic attack output from a heavy attack build (inc. shock tics, final pulse, and light attacks) dependant upon the build in question. So yes, Staff Expert currently grants a bit more of a buff overall to heavy builds. However, there's not much point discussing basic attack damage in isolation with regard to the CP rework, as all builds still rely on a skill cast rotation for the majority of their DPS. Essentially it's more nuanced than reviewing the loss of individual nodes to determine how much overall impact there will be on any particular build, and heavy builds are no exception to that.

Personally, from what I've seen and tested thus far, I'm still going to happily main a heavy attack mag build after the update without feeling disproportionately nerfed compared to light attack counterparts.

jwarren68

I main a hvy attck magsorc and noticed, after U29, several hvy attk sets ( IA\UI\UU\Noble Duelist) don't seem to be applying their respective 5th set damage buff per tick, but only on the last "shock pulse" damage.

Has anyone else noticed this? It pretty much destroys my build.

FrancisCrawford

jwarren68 wrote: »

I main a hvy attck magsorc and noticed, after U29, several hvy attk sets ( IA\UI\UU\Noble Duelist) don't seem to be applying their respective 5th set damage buff per tick, but only on the last "shock pulse" damage.

Has anyone else noticed this? It pretty much destroys my build.

If that's intended behavior, you're right -- the whole build concept is fried.

Zodiarkslayer

jwarren68 wrote: »

I main a hvy attck magsorc and noticed, after U29, several hvy attk sets ( IA\UI\UU\Noble Duelist) don't seem to be applying their respective 5th set damage buff per tick, but only on the last "shock pulse" damage.

Has anyone else noticed this? It pretty much destroys my build.

That would indeed be awful. But also explain a lot. I fear they wanted to bring Shock Staff HA in line with all other Heavy Attack types and got carried away...

I noticed a significant drop in applied DPS. Meaning: not Dummy parses...

I am still able to SOLO all World Bosses (Okay, except maybe the Dragons, but you know...). The only thing I noticed was, that it was taking much longer. For example: where I got the Summerset Griffons in under five minutes before, it is now more than ten.

Secondsz

The single target and DoT 10% passives work on lightning heavies if you were wondering, the DPS loss is not as bad as it looks.

FrancisCrawford

Secondsz wrote: »

The single target and DoT 10% passives work on lightning heavies if you were wondering, the DPS loss is not as bad as it looks.

If the sets the build depends on no longer work for it, then it's toast. No?

phaneub17_ESO

The new CP tree focuses more on doing a blanket effect of increased damage with 3 Stars granting Weapon/Spell Damage, combined they give a maximum of 415 with one that is always active and two that need to be slotted. It gets rid of the specific niche ones while focusing on general overall increases.

Umbra

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Are heavy attack builds getting nerfed ... well, are they getting nerfed more HEAVILY than other builds are?

Yes they are. 20-25% DPS loss. Non crit HA noob friendly builds are dead IMO. Now we have only one working build archtype: backstab + crit + LA + direct damage.

Septimus_Magna

Secondsz wrote: »

The single target and DoT 10% passives work on lightning heavies if you were wondering, the DPS loss is not as bad as it looks.

In the old CP system these passives also increased HA damage so its actually quite a difference because the percentages were a lot higher for elemental, direct, crit and light/heavy attack damage.

I also noticed that HAs barely give back resources with the loss of Tenacity, on my magsorc I have to slot a Elemental Drain or Dark Conversion to sustain long solo fights without adds. Thats with False God+Mothers Sorrow and Ghastly Eye Bowl on a High Elf wearing 6L/1H.

The base amount of resources that gets restored should probably be increased, you already lose a lot of dps while heavy attacking so it should restore a decent amount of resources.

FrancisCrawford

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

The new CP tree focuses more on doing a blanket effect of increased damage with 3 Stars granting Weapon/Spell Damage, combined they give a maximum of 415 with one that is always active and two that need to be slotted. It gets rid of the specific niche ones while focusing on general overall increases.

It would be an odd build in which you'd take both the Spell Damage slottables, no? If even 20% of your damage is single-target/AoE/DoT, it's probably better to take th

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Secondsz wrote: »

The single target and DoT 10% passives work on lightning heavies if you were wondering, the DPS loss is not as bad as it looks.

In the old CP system these passives also increased HA damage so its actually quite a difference because the percentages were a lot higher for elemental, direct, crit and light/heavy attack damage.

I also noticed that HAs barely give back resources with the loss of Tenacity, on my magsorc I have to slot a Elemental Drain or Dark Conversion to sustain long solo fights without adds. Thats with False God+Mothers Sorrow and Ghastly Eye Bowl on a High Elf wearing 6L/1H.

The base amount of resources that gets restored should probably be increased, you already lose a lot of dps while heavy attacking so it should restore a decent amount of resources.

Wouldn't you want Elemental Drain anyway on a class without a good alternate source of Major Breach?

(Yeah, I know, sorcerer skill bars are very crowded if you use any kind of non-ultimate pet ...)

Dunning_Kruger

Thank god; this was destroying PvP and in general far too rewarding for how low skill it required to do.

Grianasteri

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Thank god; this was destroying PvP and in general far too rewarding for how low skill it required to do.

This is inaccurate ^

I cant even remember the last time I was taken out by a heavy attack focused player in Cyrodiil. In my experience its not overly common and certainly not destroying pvp.

It is a little sad when experienced players, often end game/meta types, seek to have the tools of new, inexperienced, and disabled players nullified.

Scardan

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I didn't notice anything in the CP revamp that specifically buffs basic attack damage.

Is Deadly Aim not buffing basic attacks?

ManM

My heavy attack build lost nearly half of it's dps. Gearing up a bit differently got me back up to ~65% of what it was before. Swapping one of the heavy attack sets for medusa provided similar DPS, which was weird. I think there was a significantly fundamental change to how that build worked, and it's no longer effective.

Mindcr0w

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If that's intended behavior, you're right -- the whole build concept is fried.

Alright chaps.

After some extremely quick and dirty testing with two slightly different gear setups on my Sorc 2 pet HA build I am happy to report that HA builds not only aren't "fried", but in some cases may have actually lost less than other builds.

Now I call these initial tests quick and dirty for several reasons:

1.) Parsing in the days right after a major patch is always a bit off due to server issues.
2.) I did not parse with each setup repeatedly to get a "perfect parse". I just went in did a quick one and done with each to get a feel for things and called it a day.
3.) Certain things on my character were not yet optimized for the current patch. For example I am still in only 5 pieces of light armor.

So keeping all these things in mind it should be possible to squeeze at least a few k more dps out under better circumstances.

Ok, so I tested with my two favorite pre-patch gear setups:

1) Zaan+Medusa+Infall for mobile fights.

2) Zaan + Medusa + Siroria for fights where Siroria is usable.

My pre-patch best ever parse with Setup 1 was 93k. Post patch I hit 87k. A drop of only 6.5%. I believe this to be a significantly lower drop than what most players are reporting, which I believe to be in the 10-20% range on average. (Someone correct me if I am wrong here)

My best pre-patch with Setup 2 was 101k. Post patch I hit 90k. A 10.9% drop which is more in line with the average drop, but still somewhat on the lower side.

Now obviously the stronger setup lost more and is closer to the weaker setup than it used to be. This could be due to several things. Siroria being a very spell damage heavy set is being hit very hard by the diminishing returns caused by our higher spell damage pools. Higher end builds may have been hit harder than more mid tier builds. Or a combination of the two.

Either way, all things considered I'd say HA builds can maintain their niche in this strange new CP 2.0 world as long as we are willing to adapt.

FrancisCrawford

Scardan wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I didn't notice anything in the CP revamp that specifically buffs basic attack damage.

Is Deadly Aim not buffing basic attacks?

There used to be a CP star solely for basic attacks, so that CP (if you so chose) buffed basic attacks MORE than they buffed skills.

That's what is no longer the case.

katorga

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Scardan wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I didn't notice anything in the CP revamp that specifically buffs basic attack damage.

Is Deadly Aim not buffing basic attacks?

There used to be a CP star solely for basic attacks, so that CP (if you so chose) buffed basic attacks MORE than they buffed skills.

That's what is no longer the case.

And that stacked with all of the other damage buffs, dot damage, elemental damage, direct damage.