40% DPS nerf ?

Vostorn

Greetings,

I am what many people would call a casual player. I play mainly for fun while still trying to do my best : I have 2*5pieces set + monster set, full stamina (as DPS) and I try to keep my DoTs and buffs up while weaving a light/heavy attack between each skill.

With the exact same gear/skills
On live, with 810 CP, I can get roughly to 20k DPS on skeleton dummy.
On PTS without CP, I can get to roughly 9k DPS on skeleton dummy
On PTS with 888CP, I can get to roughly 12k DPS on skeleton dummy

So this mean a 40% DPS nerf for me (and many other casual players I guess). This is huge[.

I really hope this DPS nerf won't go live. Not only will it be frustrating for me and my friend not being able to finish content we could finish before, but it would also be unfair because there are achievements that will be way harder to get than before like those that require you to clean a vet dungeon in less than X minutes.

I understand that you try to reduce the gap between casual and top players which is good imho. But why nerf casual's DPS to the ground in the process ?

Aapjes

DPS is nerfed, but not by nearly as much as you suggest. There are a lot of debuffs bugged on PTS, like penetration. It is kind of frustrating though that no meaningful testing can be done as a consequence.

Jimbob47

Definitely not a 40% nerf to DPS. Just did a run through Vateshran Arena on the PTS and it felt very similar to running it on live.

ErMurazor

With the extra health u can run max stat/regen drink and u can fully spec into damage and only use damage skills on your bar. In a trial scenario i actually think damage is higher next patch.

As a Magblade for example i will ditch siph attacks and put another dot on my bar and run 7 light.

vesselwiththepestle

Vostorn wrote: »

With the exact same gear/skills

Try adapting to the new patch and compare again.

Septimus_Magna

ErMurazor wrote: »

In a trial scenario i actually think damage is higher next patch.

I like your optimism but I dont think end-game players will be buffed next patch. Everyone gains 1000 weapon/spell damage but you lose a big percentage of the crit damage, physical/elemental damage, direct damage, dot damage etc. Resistance wise we also lose quite a lot but we gain 15% base resist and more health so the change should be less significant. I also dont think 18k health will be enough because you mitigate less damage.

For skilled players with around 1000CP the dps loss will probably be around 15-20% if penetration values work correctly. For low CP players the dps will probably increase because they get the benefit of 1000 wepaon/spell damage without missing much of the high percentage based damage increase from CP.

Alendrin

There are some pretty big bugs on the PTS. I think all the armor debuffs do work work on the PTS, at least against target dummies. You can only compare tooltips right now. Mine are similar.

MrZeDark

Vostorn wrote: »

Greetings,

I am what many people would call a casual player. I play mainly for fun while still trying to do my best : I have 2*5pieces set + monster set, full stamina (as DPS) and I try to keep my DoTs and buffs up while weaving a light/heavy attack between each skill.

With the exact same gear/skills
On live, with 810 CP, I can get roughly to 20k DPS on skeleton dummy.
On PTS without CP, I can get to roughly 9k DPS on skeleton dummy
On PTS with 888CP, I can get to roughly 12k DPS on skeleton dummy

So this mean a 40% DPS nerf for me (and many other casual players I guess). This is huge[.

I really hope this DPS nerf won't go live. Not only will it be frustrating for me and my friend not being able to finish content we could finish before, but it would also be unfair because there are achievements that will be way harder to get than before like those that require you to clean a vet dungeon in less than X minutes.

I understand that you try to reduce the gap between casual and top players which is good imho. But why nerf casual's DPS to the ground in the process ?

I appreciate this math, but I hope it does go live.

We need less zerg, and more attention to dealing with mechanics and less mitigation - so we can rely on healers.

Pallio

It is the new version of content, make everything harder by nerfing players. So anything VET level can be more "fun" because dps is going to drop. But, at least pvp got the nerfs they wanted and RP got cool stuff to spend gold/crown on too.

Cycle of life in ZOS, spoon feed pvp/RP, punish PVE either by accident or intentionally, they don't care as long as the 1st 2 keep playing.

Firstmep

Apart from the bugged buffs and debuff a tanking your dps, I can tell you that you can improve your dps by far more than any pts changes, just by playing better.
There is nothing wrong with only doing 20k dps, but you really should worry more about a better rotation, sets, weaving etc at this point than losing dmg from cp changes.

jonathanb16_ESO

What i tested so far, we get around 15-20% dmg nerf.
I tested with my magcro on life and pts and adjusted for the missing pen.

MudcrabAttack

They really aren't raising the floor by reducing damage gained from CP when so many are already sitting around 810.

All you can compare to live for now is the 6mil or 3 mil target dummy without penetration debuffs applied. The trial Atronach is bugged.

Universe

More like 26% nerf to DPS but that's when I tested on 3M skeleton target dummy and some say it currently ignores penetration on PTS.
So I'm not sure if it is legit.

jonathanb16_ESO

Universe wrote: »

More like 26% nerf to DPS but that's when I tested on 3M skeleton target dummy and some say it currently ignores penetration on PTS.
So I'm not sure if it is legit.

Minor and Major Breach are not working on pts. So you missing out on ~9k ok pen or ~13.4% dps.
And testing on the small dummy is not a good baseline anyway, because almost every class brings some unique dmg buff.

jonathanb16_ESO

Just a missing Major Breach(from drain for example) would be 9% more dps.

Pallio

Firstmep wrote: »

Apart from the bugged buffs and debuff a tanking your dps, I can tell you that you can improve your dps by far more than any pts changes, just by playing better.
There is nothing wrong with only doing 20k dps, but you really should worry more about a better rotation, sets, weaving etc at this point than losing dmg from cp changes.

So is that what we should do after every nerf patch, get gooder? Great, thanks for your helpful insight.

Jierdanit

Pallio wrote: »

It is the new version of content, make everything harder by nerfing players. So anything VET level can be more "fun" because dps is going to drop. But, at least pvp got the nerfs they wanted and RP got cool stuff to spend gold/crown on too.

Cycle of life in ZOS, spoon feed pvp/RP, punish PVE either by accident or intentionally, they don't care as long as the 1st 2 keep playing.

"Spoon feed PvP"??????

Did you ever play a second of PvP in this game?
If you did then you would know that ZOS really does do too much for PvP at all, aside from a few balance changes (which still leave PvP way too unbalanced as well).

As a PvE player you get 1 trial and 4 dungeons every year (im not counting All the story elements from new zones as PvE content as that doesnt do anything for endgame PvEers), as a PvE player you do barely get anything that really is specificially made for PvP.

The only real additions to PvP in the last years were Battlegrounds (4 years ago), Volendrung (2 years ago), a few Battleground maps and some adjustments to the Cyrodiil map.

So where exactly is ZOS "spoon feeding" PvPers?

And obviously there are going to be more balance changes directed at PVP than there are balance changes directed at PvE, which simply is because youre way rather to complain if some other player kills you with some too strong skill than if the other DD has 3k more DPS than you.

RandomKodiak

The test dummies on the pts are all bugged there is no debuffs working so basically set at max resist of 18200. So we are going to have to wait til next week (Gina said in another thread there is a fix next week so let's hope) to actually test damage numbers. From number crunchers and what I have tested at 810 CP we are probably looking at a 10-20% damage reduction overall but as already said can't know for sure till we can really test.

fxeconomisteb17_ESO

I find the blue CP tree so disgusting that it's not even worth the effort to put points in it.

Pallio

EVERY NERF is for pvp, proc sets, snipe... years long whining about sorcs, nbs etc.
I have never once seen an NPC Boss mob on here complaining about some skill that killed them and is therefore OP and needs to be nerfed.
But, anything that kills someone in pvp, results in a whining nerf request on these forms.

Pallio

Read the Tank post.. PVP had turtles who were too tanky, so all tanks will now be nerfed. Because, its not fair to not be able kill anyone you encounter 1v1 in pvp either.

Jierdanit

Pallio wrote: »

EVERY NERF is for pvp, proc sets, snipe... years long whining about sorcs, nbs etc.
I have never once seen an NPC Boss mob on here complaining about some skill that killed them and is therefore OP and needs to be nerfed.
But, anything that kills someone in pvp, results in a whining nerf request on these forms.

Yea, that is exactly what i said.

Jierdanit wrote: »

And obviously there are going to be more balance changes directed at PVP than there are balance changes directed at PvE, which simply is because youre way rather to complain if some other player kills you with some too strong skill than if the other DD has 3k more DPS than you.

Its absolutely obvious that nerfs are directed at PvP, since there is just way more of a competition between players in PvP than there is in PvE and therefore there are going to be more complaints.

That still isnt even close to ZOS spoonfeeding PvPers though lol

GreenHere

Pallio wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Apart from the bugged buffs and debuff a tanking your dps, I can tell you that you can improve your dps by far more than any pts changes, just by playing better.
There is nothing wrong with only doing 20k dps, but you really should worry more about a better rotation, sets, weaving etc at this point than losing dmg from cp changes.

So is that what we should do after every nerf patch, get gooder? Great, thanks for your helpful insight.

I mean, I generally agree with your sentiment, but in this case I think @Firstmep is right and wasn't condescending about it or anything; if you're struggling with ~12K dps, it's less about the changes and more about the player. I'm not seeing anything close to a 40% drop on PTS, and I'm a fairly average player (though my testing has admittedly been somewhat limited so far).

And the PTS bugs related to damage output are not insignificant, which is a point a lot of the people making these threads do seem to miss or ignore.

Jierdanit

Pallio wrote: »

Read the Tank post.. PVP had turtles who were too tanky, so all tanks will now be nerfed. Because, its not fair to not be able kill anyone you encounter 1v1 in pvp either.

Yea that is certainly true for PvP.

Also yea it is a problem that ZOS is just plain ignoring the idea to do PvP balance changes via Battle Spirit so that the changes would not impact PvE in a bad way.

But balance changes are just needed for PvP way more than they are needed in PvE, so ofc they are going to happen for PvP...

Sahidom

I have also noticed some of the proc set damage has dropped significantly under 2.0 compared to tool tips under the current CP system - about 26-30% lower even with Malacath Band equipped.

preevious

Now; about that debuff bug..

Can anyone tell me if all penetration is bugged, or if it is just fracture/breach?

For instance, light armor added penetration? Cp star added penetration? sharpened weapons? Destro-staff penetration? Are they buggy as well?

Tannus15

preevious wrote: »

Now; about that debuff bug..

Can anyone tell me if all penetration is bugged, or if it is just fracture/breach?

For instance, light armor added penetration? Cp star added penetration? sharpened weapons? Destro-staff penetration? Are they buggy as well?

as far as i understand armour debuffs are bugged, but armour pen is fine.

RandomKodiak

preevious wrote: »

Now; about that debuff bug..

Can anyone tell me if all penetration is bugged, or if it is just fracture/breach?

For instance, light armor added penetration? Cp star added penetration? sharpened weapons? Destro-staff penetration? Are they buggy as well?

Cannot say for the magicka side of things but for stam toons at least it is all. I equiped Tzogvin's, Krag's Monster set, Lover Mundus, all 1400 from CP, on a Bosmer and it made no difference my damage would just keep going up incrementally in proportion to how much pen I had added. I got to well over 11k pen and gave up nothing on the 21k dummy helped. As I said earlier Gina said they are supposed to fix that next week with the patch on the 15th but until then no real testing can be done. Also a number of the big streamers have said there is not way to test as the dummies are all set at max resists.

Raegwyr

Pallio wrote: »

EVERY NERF is for pvp, proc sets, snipe... years long whining about sorcs, nbs etc.
I have never once seen an NPC Boss mob on here complaining about some skill that killed them and is therefore OP and needs to be nerfed.
But, anything that kills someone in pvp, results in a whining nerf request on these forms.

They nerfed pre buff sets because of PvE. Same story with Dead water. And crit.
Three biggest nerfs not related to cp (new cp system is a for both PvE and pvp) are strictly because of PvE so what the hell are you talking about?

itscompton

I like the new system overall and feel like my PvP sorc plays pretty much the same but that's with the advantage of being able to ignore the star that buffs Dot damage. I can definitely see where the new system would cause headaches for PvE DD's.
The way they split up single target, AOE, and Dot damage into three separate active stars, which are all indispensable for a PvE build, leaves room for only one more active choice.
My preference would be to get rid of the Thaumaturge star and buff the base damage of Dots by 10% so that PvE DD's have a bit more freedom to choose one of the many other useful active stars.

Shantu

From a PVE perspective, when you're looking at bosses with 100+ mil health and 150K one-shots, a blanket nerf to DPS is just plain dumb.