To the ZoS balancing team, with regards to PvE Bow/Bow DDs

Faded

Annurang wrote: »

If the mechanics of a certain bossfight require you to do so (stand in melee range) for a phase it's understandable but I am noticing that the "stacking" in melee range tactic is a staple in many (if not most) bossfights making ranged playstyle lose its substance.

Ironic, isn't it. You're penalized before the fight starts (and always) based on the assumption you're safer and everything's easier at range, yet you too will be fighting in melee range. Staff wielders say hi.

Annurang wrote: »

I neither think that "running around" is a sound alternative, trials require (as they should) discipline, but having a ranged DD group aside the "melee stack" and healers assigned to specific groups of people doesn't seem like an awfully complicated plan, then again this point could be another thread by itself and leads away from the discussion at hand.

PVE mechanics need an upgrade. lurk mode re-activates

Jimbru

I am a 99% PVE player, so take the rest of my post in that context: I have tried several times to use a stam bow build on my Nightblade. No matter what I've tried so far, it feels undergunned and fragile compared to stam melee or mag staff builds on the same toon.

One thing I've particularly noticed is the lack of durability mechanisms for bowblade builds. Melee builds can use 2H Brawler skill for barrier or use 1H weps with Flurry, marrying those options with Leeching Strikes and Briarheart to self-heal like crazy. Magblades can wear Iceheart set, use the barrier skill from light armor and have many self-healing skills. Bowblades have...well, not nearly as much. Nothing for barriers; Mirage helps but isn't the same kind of hard protection, and healing options are more limited. So when I have used bow builds, I have found myself more often running for my life than actually being able to fight -- especially on things like world bosses and dragons -- and it's very frustrating.

MudcrabAttack

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

The pet stamsorc easily hits the highest bow damage along with having the easiest rotation, it's usually 5kdps higher than the others each patch.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/dwJbXvT8yABpGrRN#fight=last&type=summary&source=1

The twilight tormenter is doing bigger dps than that on the PTS since it's getting buffed by CP

Juhasow

Annurang wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

@Annurang Your setup and possibly rotation are not fully optimised. Bow/bow setup is capable to get way more then 70-73k on iron dummy. Just slotting dual wield on front bar won't give You 20k DPS more. You can oscillate in the 90k-100k departament with bow/bow on stamblade.

Have you done it? (or do you have a link to a build video that displays that 90-100k dps). One part of my post is about investigating if there is a way, and by all means any useful information is welcome.

Here is one of the top parses one the bow/bow setup atm You can find. Warden is best class to do it currently but let's be honest other classes won't be falling 20-30k behind. Personally when I was parsing with bow/bow on my stamsroc I was in around 100k bracket. You can definietly pull more then 73k on stamblade. There was a time when team almost full on bow/bow stamblades was keepinmg top score in vAS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eE0WN74YoE

Annurang

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

Annurang

Juhasow wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

@Annurang Your setup and possibly rotation are not fully optimised. Bow/bow setup is capable to get way more then 70-73k on iron dummy. Just slotting dual wield on front bar won't give You 20k DPS more. You can oscillate in the 90k-100k departament with bow/bow on stamblade.

Have you done it? (or do you have a link to a build video that displays that 90-100k dps). One part of my post is about investigating if there is a way, and by all means any useful information is welcome.

Here is one of the top parses one the bow/bow setup atm You can find. Warden is best class to do it currently but let's be honest other classes won't be falling 20-30k behind. Personally when I was parsing with bow/bow on my stamsroc I was in around 100k bracket. You can definietly pull more then 73k on stamblade. There was a time when team almost full on bow/bow stamblades was keepinmg top score in vAS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eE0WN74YoE

Seen that one too, too bad it's on warden but the fact that there's a magnum shot in his front bar means vBRP bow... which is what Im constantly trying to find grps to do (2 runs and nothin T_T ) This is promising but probably not as much... on Nightblades there's the problem that as stam they are completely melee oriented (Killer's Blade / Incap strike / Barbed Trap)

Annurang

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

So without the barbed trap and with ballista instead of incap you get this: (I did mess up a bit on execute as im not 100% used to executing only with perfect rotation ) https://files.fm/f/7radjyb96

JobooAGS

Annurang wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

So without the barbed trap and with ballista instead of incap you get this: (I did mess up a bit on execute as im not 100% used to executing only with perfect rotation ) https://files.fm/f/7radjyb96

Use the brp bow and channeled focus, the dot you get is insane

Annurang

JobooAGS wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

So without the barbed trap and with ballista instead of incap you get this: (I did mess up a bit on execute as im not 100% used to executing only with perfect rotation ) https://files.fm/f/7radjyb96

Use the brp bow and channeled focus, the dot you get is insane

Wondering why channeled focus instead of a lightweight trap that gives you a good DoT too... also what would you wear if not tzogv. ? (im thinking swamp raider tbh)

Juhasow

Annurang wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

So without the barbed trap and with ballista instead of incap you get this: (I did mess up a bit on execute as im not 100% used to executing only with perfect rotation ) https://files.fm/f/7radjyb96

You're overpenning dummy a lot.

Juhasow

Annurang wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

@Annurang Your setup and possibly rotation are not fully optimised. Bow/bow setup is capable to get way more then 70-73k on iron dummy. Just slotting dual wield on front bar won't give You 20k DPS more. You can oscillate in the 90k-100k departament with bow/bow on stamblade.

Have you done it? (or do you have a link to a build video that displays that 90-100k dps). One part of my post is about investigating if there is a way, and by all means any useful information is welcome.

Here is one of the top parses one the bow/bow setup atm You can find. Warden is best class to do it currently but let's be honest other classes won't be falling 20-30k behind. Personally when I was parsing with bow/bow on my stamsroc I was in around 100k bracket. You can definietly pull more then 73k on stamblade. There was a time when team almost full on bow/bow stamblades was keepinmg top score in vAS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eE0WN74YoE

Seen that one too, too bad it's on warden but the fact that there's a magnum shot in his front bar means vBRP bow... which is what Im constantly trying to find grps to do (2 runs and nothin T_T ) This is promising but probably not as much... on Nightblades there's the problem that as stam they are completely melee oriented (Killer's Blade / Incap strike / Barbed Trap)

You would gain DPS also if You would run vMA + master bow.

Juhasow

Annurang wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

So without the barbed trap and with ballista instead of incap you get this: (I did mess up a bit on execute as im not 100% used to executing only with perfect rotation ) https://files.fm/f/7radjyb96

Use the brp bow and channeled focus, the dot you get is insane

Wondering why channeled focus instead of a lightweight trap that gives you a good DoT too... also what would you wear if not tzogv. ? (im thinking swamp raider tbh)

36 sec duration and costs magicka vs 10 sec dutration and stamina cost. Withinh lets say 70 seconds You'll be able to cast 5 additional lethal arrows because You wont have to cast trap 7 times but chanelled focus 2 times plus magicka cost helps a little with sustain.

Luckylancer

Bows do les damage in real life. I think long shot should be removed if not reversed for +20 ranges. PvP cause bow nerfs and dealing less damage at range will hurt snipe spammers. This means ZoS can properly buff bow and PvP players wont complain much.

OP try some weapons sets. BRP turns magnum shot in to a potent DoT. AS bow give 14 second 6k pen.

zvavi wrote: »

bow has one thing doing bad for it, and it is that it forces u into range to gain "maximum" damage.
sadly it is not always possible in dungeons/trials, and most importantly, it puts u away from the heals/buffs.

Vateshran bow was a step that might have closed the gap, but since the 33% was additive and not multiplied, it was hurt by old cp (and will be hurt by new cp) for diminishing returns, making it worse than wearing a monster set (especially noticable now when tzogvin is buffed). if they ever make Vateshran bow a multiplied buff, it will open new options for bow users. (i tried making a thread about it, but people were saying that it is still used in no cp pvp, which gets no change if it will be a multiplied buff cause there is no cp there:/)

Buff up, cloak, vatesran poin blank snipe, incap. Do you know what happens if the enemy die to this atack? Set will get nerfed.

Annurang

Juhasow wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

So without the barbed trap and with ballista instead of incap you get this: (I did mess up a bit on execute as im not 100% used to executing only with perfect rotation ) https://files.fm/f/7radjyb96

You're overpenning dummy a lot.

So my cmx in screenshot shows 7578 pen/0% overpen, but i'm guessing the rest of the pen (up to the 18200 we need) is not shown in there as it is not "caused" by me. I'm not 100% sure if the ppl I raid with always have like Alkosh or torug's and I liked keeping it on the high side to help with PvP as well (which surely makes me less optimized). So how much pen would you like to see me have there?

Annurang

Luckylancer wrote: »

Bows do les damage in real life. I think long shot should be removed if not reversed for +20 ranges. PvP cause bow nerfs and dealing less damage at range will hurt snipe spammers. This means ZoS can properly buff bow and PvP players wont complain much.

OP try some weapons sets. BRP turns magnum shot in to a potent DoT. AS bow give 14 second 6k pen.

zvavi wrote: »

bow has one thing doing bad for it, and it is that it forces u into range to gain "maximum" damage.
sadly it is not always possible in dungeons/trials, and most importantly, it puts u away from the heals/buffs.

Vateshran bow was a step that might have closed the gap, but since the 33% was additive and not multiplied, it was hurt by old cp (and will be hurt by new cp) for diminishing returns, making it worse than wearing a monster set (especially noticable now when tzogvin is buffed). if they ever make Vateshran bow a multiplied buff, it will open new options for bow users. (i tried making a thread about it, but people were saying that it is still used in no cp pvp, which gets no change if it will be a multiplied buff cause there is no cp there:/)

Buff up, cloak, vatesran poin blank snipe, incap. Do you know what happens if the enemy die to this atack? Set will get nerfed.

"OP try some weapons sets": I am now tryharding to find groups for vBRP, finished it 2 times and no bow drop (T_T) I'm sure the vBRP bow on front bar (perfected that gives the extra crit ;d) with a Master's Bow backbar, for the single target dmg boost, should net me a dps increase over any other combo -if we keep in mind that I like to stay in at least medium range (~2 steps in front of the furthest back support that can provide synergies) and not stab the mob with incaps and 25% of it with killer's blade which is the generic melee stamblade rotation, because when I tell a Trial Group "I'm a ranged DD" it means that I can do the vast majority of my damage at range (like most other Mag DD classes) not "30% or more of it from melee, but the rest from range"

Same goes for Vateshran. A StamNB with Vate is a melee stam DD. He can do his 90k+ dps in melee range ONLY. That's what I'm forced to clear vBRP with if I want to be effective. And melee bow playstyle makes me kindda wanna throw up. I can't but keep wondering why am I not dual wielding. If my dog watches the screen he'll probably think "HWhy u use bow ehn Malee hooman?!" and I'm just gonna pat him on the head, look in his troubled eyes (like I'm reading his mind) and tell him "It's OK buddy!!!"

Luckylancer

@Annurang melee snipe is a bad desing logic wise, I dont like it too. But dont underestimate ranged potantial of a vatesran bow build. Other stam DDs have to spam light atack when they are at range. Mag DDs may lose blockade (and vMA staff) and zaan. Every spec lose something when boss is at far.

Juhasow

Annurang wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

So without the barbed trap and with ballista instead of incap you get this: (I did mess up a bit on execute as im not 100% used to executing only with perfect rotation ) https://files.fm/f/7radjyb96

You're overpenning dummy a lot.

So my cmx in screenshot shows 7578 pen/0% overpen, but i'm guessing the rest of the pen (up to the 18200 we need) is not shown in there as it is not "caused" by me. I'm not 100% sure if the ppl I raid with always have like Alkosh or torug's and I liked keeping it on the high side to help with PvP as well (which surely makes me less optimized). So how much pen would you like to see me have there?

Iron atro have most of the armor reduction debuffs present in the group scenario already applied thus penetration You need to provide from Yourself is around 3,2k. Having 7k pen like You is pure DPS waste. CMX was designed to count overpen only after reaching 18,2k penetration from You and Your group members debuffs. That is why You see 0% overpen because for CMX Iron Atro still have 18,2k resistances when in reality it have 3,2k.

Provin915

Interesting post. I started ESO a couple of month's ago, I always roll bow builds. Started as NB bow/bow, around 600 CP now. While my setup is not fully optimised yet, it's still so much fun to play as bow/bow, but sadly the DPS is lacking compared to traditional stam and mag builds. It does feel as if the ranged playstyle is not suitable in this game. In other MMOs during raids I could be max range and DPS whilst dodging mechanics, whereas in ESO raiding it's almost always stay stacked etc.

I can understand that this is a strategy, but it kind of defeats the ''purpose'' of long-range builds. This ''stacking'' playstyle in trials defeat the purpose of the passive ''long shots''. And then they introduced Point-Blank bow...

It's great to see other players support bow/bow playstyle. Also, cool to see other people's setup!! I really need to get my damn maelstrom bow on offbar. In addition, awesome to see people rocking BRP bow on frontbar. I need to test that out!

QuebraRegra

deleted because stupid.

Annurang

@Luckylancer Hmmm interesting. I looked around about it a bit and found this thread here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498407/trial-dummy-resistances

Most of them in there say you need arround 5,3 - 5,8k (which is still less than I'm pen.ing but closer. Kindda hard to decide who to believe now >.<

Annurang

Provin915 wrote: »

Interesting post. I started ESO a couple of month's ago, I always roll bow builds. Started as NB bow/bow, around 600 CP now. While my setup is not fully optimised yet, it's still so much fun to play as bow/bow, but sadly the DPS is lacking compared to traditional stam and mag builds. It does feel as if the ranged playstyle is not suitable in this game. In other MMOs during raids I could be max range and DPS whilst dodging mechanics, whereas in ESO raiding it's almost always stay stacked etc.

I can understand that this is a strategy, but it kind of defeats the ''purpose'' of long-range builds. This ''stacking'' playstyle in trials defeat the purpose of the passive ''long shots''. And then they introduced Point-Blank bow...

It's great to see other players support bow/bow playstyle. Also, cool to see other people's setup!! I really need to get my damn maelstrom bow on offbar. In addition, awesome to see people rocking BRP bow on frontbar. I need to test that out!

Thank you for taking the time to go through it. It really surprised me too how unsupported and underwhelming endgame PvE bow playstyle felt in this game (especially as NB) compared to other DDs when I first started couple of years back or a bit more. In literally every game that bows exist, they are decently balanced one way or another. But no, in our favorite and all inclusive ESO world, bows in PvE seem like what crossbows are in Witcher, just a secondary off-weapon (to stack some DoTs with).

I've narrowed down the biggest problem to be Incap strike ult + Killer's blade combo. Those 2 skills alone are the biggest class specific DPS sources a stamNB has. And them being melee makes the nightblade exclusively melee too no matter what he's holding (in PvE at least).

The only immediate solution to the problem seems to be rolling a warden. That is, if you like shooting mostly pterodactyls and burrowing dinosaurs to your enemies instead of arrows (which is not my "drift" or fetish). I wanted a ranged bow wielding Rogue/Ranger character like I always managed to make work in almost every other MMO/RPG game (from DnD based games to WoW, Path of Exile, TERA, L2, NwN etc). What can I say... "I'm sorry if my ideal character sounds too far fetched" (more than a highly performing "Necromancer archer" as it seems)

Provin915

Annurang wrote: »

Provin915 wrote: »

Interesting post. I started ESO a couple of month's ago, I always roll bow builds. Started as NB bow/bow, around 600 CP now. While my setup is not fully optimised yet, it's still so much fun to play as bow/bow, but sadly the DPS is lacking compared to traditional stam and mag builds. It does feel as if the ranged playstyle is not suitable in this game. In other MMOs during raids I could be max range and DPS whilst dodging mechanics, whereas in ESO raiding it's almost always stay stacked etc.

I can understand that this is a strategy, but it kind of defeats the ''purpose'' of long-range builds. This ''stacking'' playstyle in trials defeat the purpose of the passive ''long shots''. And then they introduced Point-Blank bow...

It's great to see other players support bow/bow playstyle. Also, cool to see other people's setup!! I really need to get my damn maelstrom bow on offbar. In addition, awesome to see people rocking BRP bow on frontbar. I need to test that out!

Thank you for taking the time to go through it. It really surprised me too how unsupported and underwhelming endgame PvE bow playstyle felt in this game (especially as NB) compared to other DDs when I first started couple of years back or a bit more. In literally every game that bows exist, they are decently balanced one way or another. But no, in our favorite and all inclusive ESO world, bows in PvE seem like what crossbows are in Witcher, just a secondary off-weapon (to stack some DoTs with).

I've narrowed down the biggest problem to be Incap strike ult + Killer's blade combo. Those 2 skills alone are the biggest class specific DPS sources a stamNB has. And them being melee makes the nightblade exclusively melee too no matter what he's holding (in PvE at least).

The only immediate solution to the problem seems to be rolling a warden. That is, if you like shooting mostly pterodactyls and burrowing dinosaurs to your enemies instead of arrows (which is not my "drift" or fetish). I wanted a ranged bow wielding Rogue/Ranger character like I always managed to make work in almost every other MMO/RPG game (from DnD based games to WoW, Path of Exile, TERA, L2, NwN etc). What can I say... "I'm sorry if my ideal character sounds too far fetched" (more than a highly performing "Necromancer archer" as it seems)

No worries I always like to read up on anything bow related .

It does seem that Warden is the most optimal class for bow/bow playstyle, but honestly I just like the NB's skillset and I always thought it's much more complimentary for the bow skill line. I do miss my Hunter in WoW .

Graphically, Lethal Arrow doesn't look that appealing too ahahah but that's just me I guess. Hopefully, with the new changes to LA's cast time it'll become much smoother during laggy times.

MudcrabAttack

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

Yeah, for me Nightblade drops to mid-eighties when standing at range with a BRP bow. There's really a lot to lose from dropping the execute and incapacitating strike. Another thing that suffers is the slower building of assassin's scourge, since ranged light attack weaving is so much slower. Dual wielding Nightblade has very decent dps because they can cast light attacks and skills 20% faster than a ranged archer. Endless hail takes almost 1/2 second longer to cast than deadly cloak, it all takes a heavy toll on assassin's scourge dps output. On the PTS, with the changes to light attacks and snipe, it's roughly 10% better attack speed, but Nightblade bow/bow is still lagging behind the other classes by quite a lot.

By contrast, if I build my warden or sorcerer for dps far from the target, their dps only goes up, especially when using BRP bow. And it was already higher than the Nightblade when they were standing under the boss's butt with a Vateshran Bow.

JobooAGS

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

Yeah, for me Nightblade drops to mid-eighties when standing at range with a BRP bow. There's really a lot to lose from dropping the execute and incapacitating strike. Another thing that suffers is the slower building of assassin's scourge, since ranged light attack weaving is so much slower. Dual wielding Nightblade has very decent dps because they can cast light attacks and skills 20% faster than a ranged archer. Endless hail takes almost 1/2 second longer to cast than deadly cloak, it all takes a heavy toll on assassin's scourge dps output. On the PTS, with the changes to light attacks and snipe, it's roughly 10% better attack speed, but Nightblade bow/bow is still lagging behind the other classes by quite a lot.

By contrast, if I build my warden or sorcerer for dps far from the target, their dps only goes up, especially when using BRP bow. And it was already higher than the Nightblade when they were standing under the boss's butt with a Vateshran Bow.

This makes little sense to me as everything is tied to a 1 second global cooldown. Especially when all your skills save for channeled acceleration have a cast time of less than 1 second (tzogvins takes care of channeled) just like dw. BRP bow provides a HUGE dot which would be a mistake for not using it as bow/bow even for 4 seconds at ranges where you are literally shoving arrows up the boss’s arse. You can fit in execute, snipe, assassin’s scrouge, incap and magnum shot on the same bar and have ballista back bar. Hail can be animation cancelled by bar swapping or block cancelling easily. You don’t need to be at 28 m brp and long shots get their max effect at 20 m and it is easy to close the gap as you are reapplying dots before execute

As for your execute issue, just move up to the target just before execute and use incap as an ult then.

MudcrabAttack

JobooAGS wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

Yeah, for me Nightblade drops to mid-eighties when standing at range with a BRP bow. There's really a lot to lose from dropping the execute and incapacitating strike. Another thing that suffers is the slower building of assassin's scourge, since ranged light attack weaving is so much slower. Dual wielding Nightblade has very decent dps because they can cast light attacks and skills 20% faster than a ranged archer. Endless hail takes almost 1/2 second longer to cast than deadly cloak, it all takes a heavy toll on assassin's scourge dps output. On the PTS, with the changes to light attacks and snipe, it's roughly 10% better attack speed, but Nightblade bow/bow is still lagging behind the other classes by quite a lot.

By contrast, if I build my warden or sorcerer for dps far from the target, their dps only goes up, especially when using BRP bow. And it was already higher than the Nightblade when they were standing under the boss's butt with a Vateshran Bow.

This makes little sense to me as everything is tied to a 1 second global cooldown. Especially when all your skills save for channeled acceleration have a cast time of less than 1 second (tzogvins takes care of channeled) just like dw. BRP bow provides a HUGE dot which would be a mistake for not using it as bow/bow even for 4 seconds at ranges where you are literally shoving arrows up the boss’s arse. You can fit in execute, snipe, assassin’s scrouge, incap and magnum shot on the same bar and have ballista back bar. Hail can be animation cancelled by bar swapping or block cancelling easily. You don’t need to be at 28 m brp and long shots get their max effect at 20 m and it is easy to close the gap as you are reapplying dots before execute

As for your execute issue, just move up to the target just before execute and use incap as an ult then.

I don't have an execute issue since I love using killers blade and incap strike. The OP said they don't want to use any melee, so I'm showing my own nightblade numbers for a comparison between pure range and moving into melee.

And the global cooldown + time delay of waiting for a bow light attack to land tends to be longer than a second. Here's an example someone posted on the PTS channel of the ESOU discord, where bow light attacks were supposedly improved. Just move forward to 3:45 where the total # of skills cast are displayed, 187.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepUIUIX3-4

If you divide 187 by 3.3 minutes It's 56.6 skills / minute. On live servers it's generally 52 skills/minute since snipe and light attacks take longer.

Melee builds can land more than 59 light attacks + skills/minute. Theoretically bows should be capable of that but the best parsers aren't doing it

JobooAGS

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

Yeah, for me Nightblade drops to mid-eighties when standing at range with a BRP bow. There's really a lot to lose from dropping the execute and incapacitating strike. Another thing that suffers is the slower building of assassin's scourge, since ranged light attack weaving is so much slower. Dual wielding Nightblade has very decent dps because they can cast light attacks and skills 20% faster than a ranged archer. Endless hail takes almost 1/2 second longer to cast than deadly cloak, it all takes a heavy toll on assassin's scourge dps output. On the PTS, with the changes to light attacks and snipe, it's roughly 10% better attack speed, but Nightblade bow/bow is still lagging behind the other classes by quite a lot.

By contrast, if I build my warden or sorcerer for dps far from the target, their dps only goes up, especially when using BRP bow. And it was already higher than the Nightblade when they were standing under the boss's butt with a Vateshran Bow.

This makes little sense to me as everything is tied to a 1 second global cooldown. Especially when all your skills save for channeled acceleration have a cast time of less than 1 second (tzogvins takes care of channeled) just like dw. BRP bow provides a HUGE dot which would be a mistake for not using it as bow/bow even for 4 seconds at ranges where you are literally shoving arrows up the boss’s arse. You can fit in execute, snipe, assassin’s scrouge, incap and magnum shot on the same bar and have ballista back bar. Hail can be animation cancelled by bar swapping or block cancelling easily. You don’t need to be at 28 m brp and long shots get their max effect at 20 m and it is easy to close the gap as you are reapplying dots before execute

As for your execute issue, just move up to the target just before execute and use incap as an ult then.

I don't have an execute issue since I love using killers blade and incap strike. The OP said they don't want to use any melee, so I'm showing my own nightblade numbers for a comparison between pure range and moving into melee.

And the global cooldown + time delay of waiting for a bow light attack to land tends to be longer than a second. Here's an example someone posted on the PTS channel of the ESOU discord, where bow light attacks were supposedly improved. Just move forward to 3:45 where the total # of skills cast are displayed, 187.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepUIUIX3-4

If you divide 187 by 3.3 minutes It's 56.6 skills / minute. On live servers it's generally 52 skills/minute since snipe and light attacks take longer.

Melee builds can land more than 59 light attacks + skills/minute. Theoretically bows should be capable of that but the best parsers aren't doing it

In this case, some discrepancy can be explained that he is moving back and forth to cast trap unlike melee who doesn’t have to move in that parse. It likely caused a hiccup or 2. In any case, because of how gcds work, a delay in light attacks would be made up eventually by having the final attack being on the tail end of such delay, if that makes any sense.


Lets put it this way. In music, in 4/4 count if you play notes on the 1st and 3rd beats in one case and notes on the 2nd and 4th beats in another, as long as you don’t have a partial measure (in this case a light attack without a skill or vice versa), you will always play the same amount of notes.

Krayl

I'm not much of a parser but depending on the fight I bounce between melee and bow/bow on my stamcro. Haven't had any problems with it in pve. I suppose the damage could be better if the mentioned parse stuff is true but I find that I like the build for the flexibility, survivability etc. . . cleared vet trails and arenas with it, maybe it needs some love to be competitive but in regards to being viable in pve content it's more than enough damage and utility.

Annurang

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

Yeah, for me Nightblade drops to mid-eighties when standing at range with a BRP bow. There's really a lot to lose from dropping the execute and incapacitating strike. Another thing that suffers is the slower building of assassin's scourge, since ranged light attack weaving is so much slower. Dual wielding Nightblade has very decent dps because they can cast light attacks and skills 20% faster than a ranged archer. Endless hail takes almost 1/2 second longer to cast than deadly cloak, it all takes a heavy toll on assassin's scourge dps output. On the PTS, with the changes to light attacks and snipe, it's roughly 10% better attack speed, but Nightblade bow/bow is still lagging behind the other classes by quite a lot.

By contrast, if I build my warden or sorcerer for dps far from the target, their dps only goes up, especially when using BRP bow. And it was already higher than the Nightblade when they were standing under the boss's butt with a Vateshran Bow.

Sorcerer is an option I am seriously considering for a reroll since something like an arcane archer sounds a lot cooler (class I've always enjoyed in DnD type games etc) than shooting pterodactyls and stumbling on my netch pets. I get it, for many people hunters are cool, I just personally can't be "ok" with having automated pets do the work for me.

At least I've figured that sorc would surely be my favorite class for PvP. Maybe the only class that can play double bar bow and still get major brut w/o needing to "dangle" his clunky 2H every 12 seconds in the air. So if I can actually see a parse of 85k+ with that vBRP frontbar / Master's backbar (for OP single target), I will be lots more satisfied than my hover to 75-76k dps "with almost everything I got" now.

There are many other considerations that factor in though. Actual DPS in real boss mechanics requires things like "sustained DPS while target switching" that if you possess with your build can end up making your build look rly good in those dmgmeters in the end. Pal from my guild (won't say names etc) said he's actually beaten ~95k parser-bots in some rough vTrials (won't go into details) so maybe groups with multiple stam buffing sets and a strong archer DD core could be very effective as they would require the least effort to deliver DPS mainly from range while executing mechanics with faster and more agile toonies (dreams of a meta that would never come :P ).

I'm excited and salty at the same time with this game. If the rumors are true and you cant cheat your way to "upper DD tiers"(90k+dps) it will be another sad story for the dream of Ranged PvE stamplay...

Annurang

Krayl wrote: »

I'm not much of a parser but depending on the fight I bounce between melee and bow/bow on my stamcro. Haven't had any problems with it in pve. I suppose the damage could be better if the mentioned parse stuff is true but I find that I like the build for the flexibility, survivability etc. . . cleared vet trails and arenas with it, maybe it needs some love to be competitive but in regards to being viable in pve content it's more than enough damage and utility.

My problem is that I wanna clear endgame content with my Bow/Bow, and aside from stams being the least desirable choice Trialwise, in most of the good guilds that I am, DDs are tiered. Higher Tier DDs can participate in more demanding fights (like vCR+1/2/3 etc). For me to get my Rele body gear with at least vCR+1 runs, I have to be "

JobooAGS wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Annurang wrote: »

MudcrabAttack wrote: »

Here's a link to a target dummy log I made for the Stamblade archer, I top out in the low 90's since it's a wood elf. One of the tabs shows the whole build if you're interested.

https://www.esologs.com/reports/Lt8vxZdC4brGPQnN

Out of my 4 bow builds the Stamblade is in 3rd place, but I still play it the most. It's a slightly complicated rotation where dark shade and barbed trap are out of phase with the rest, but stacking relentless focus to 5 and leaving it for the crit damage buff yields the highest dps for me.

Thnx for the input. Took a hard look Your results relying a whole too much on NB's melee execute (killers blade 3rd with 12.7%) followed by the trap, that if interchange it for the lightweight bear trap (as ranged) you get about the same dps as tzogv.,(which is generally a bit lower than running melee barbed trap) and the last but not least incap strike which is amazing for melee NB dps (again melee). This just confirms my reasons to be disappointed. I'd use this build right now, if it could allow me to be a ranged dps. Still choosing to do less dps to support my role as ranged DD. But why do I have to pay a penalty in DPS while other ranged mag classes perform exactly the same >.>

Im putting an effort to do more vBRPs to get a perfected BRP bow... I'm thinking this combined maybe with master could be the "ultimate" for a ranged build (ultimate = at best 80k T_T for ranged NB at least)

Yeah, for me Nightblade drops to mid-eighties when standing at range with a BRP bow. There's really a lot to lose from dropping the execute and incapacitating strike. Another thing that suffers is the slower building of assassin's scourge, since ranged light attack weaving is so much slower. Dual wielding Nightblade has very decent dps because they can cast light attacks and skills 20% faster than a ranged archer. Endless hail takes almost 1/2 second longer to cast than deadly cloak, it all takes a heavy toll on assassin's scourge dps output. On the PTS, with the changes to light attacks and snipe, it's roughly 10% better attack speed, but Nightblade bow/bow is still lagging behind the other classes by quite a lot.

By contrast, if I build my warden or sorcerer for dps far from the target, their dps only goes up, especially when using BRP bow. And it was already higher than the Nightblade when they were standing under the boss's butt with a Vateshran Bow.

This makes little sense to me as everything is tied to a 1 second global cooldown. Especially when all your skills save for channeled acceleration have a cast time of less than 1 second (tzogvins takes care of channeled) just like dw. BRP bow provides a HUGE dot which would be a mistake for not using it as bow/bow even for 4 seconds at ranges where you are literally shoving arrows up the boss’s arse. You can fit in execute, snipe, assassin’s scrouge, incap and magnum shot on the same bar and have ballista back bar. Hail can be animation cancelled by bar swapping or block cancelling easily. You don’t need to be at 28 m brp and long shots get their max effect at 20 m and it is easy to close the gap as you are reapplying dots before execute

As for your execute issue, just move up to the target just before execute and use incap as an ult then.

Walking up to the boss at execute range (say 25% for NB) if you're in a vTrial like vSS HM or vCR+1++ you're spending little less than 1/4th of your time as melee, automatically disabling your "ranged" designation (and benefits of easier avoiding mechanics). In a high HP encounter like that A LOT goes wrong during the later stages of a fight were mechanics usually get more ..intense, and that danger can last several minutes. Also If there's an add at like 18 meters away, a ranged dd will have negligible dps loss compared to a melee that would have to run up to it then chase the next one. My problem with the NB bow/bow is that no other ranged class gets penalized so hard for not going in melee range (like most magDDs) and the result of this is the exclusion of the ranged Stamblade role from the 90k+ tier DDs that in most guilds are the ones able to participate in end game PvE content. /salt

Pink_Pixie

As a bow/bow player myself I find a few issues with it, one of the passives we have is called long shots, but most fights tend to negate that passive due to being in melee. I think a good way to fix this, would to rework long shots passive to something much more helpful to bow users.

Similar to the hawk eye passive the more shots you fire could increase your damage by 5% from light and heavy attacks (rather than at x meters away), this would result in bow/bow being more flexible. And not stuck at trying to get out of melee.

And it'd prevent the back bar only users gaining the benefit from that passive, and gaining to much damage from it. Which I think was something someone brought up before in a different thread.

All in all bow/bow does need some love as much of it's utility is lost at closer range, which brings me to the Vat Bow, which I find totally pointless as you're losing the long shots passive to use it. Of course many will argue differently, but I don't see losing a passive is worth the use of the bow.

Just a slight edit to add a bit of source on longbow history.

http://www.history-magazine.com/longbow.html