ALTMER WEAPON DAMAGE!!!!!! YESSS
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tenryuta✭✭✭does 250~ WP make that much of a difference before/after bloodthirsty jewelry? cuz my altmer only list of characters with stam/mag skills(currently only necro is true hybrid, whos in a rut do to not getting the right ice furnace parts<_<), are doing pretty well(once i get eternal vigor for the classes without resource regen on demand)0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭does 250~ WP make that much of a difference before/after bloodthirsty jewelry? cuz my altmer only list of characters with stam/mag skills(currently only necro is true hybrid, whos in a rut do to not getting the right ice furnace parts<_<), are doing pretty well(once i get eternal vigor for the classes without resource regen on demand)
It's only making a difference for people who want to chase the META. If they're not getting the highest stats available, it hampers their fun. Some of us just want to be competitive while playing the way we want, which makes the game fun. People like me don't want to be the best and X ten people - I just want to be competitive.0 -
bluelights400✭✭✭Its a stupid change much like ZOS giving Orc spell damage but what do you expect from the people who try and make Khajiits mages. In all the TES games Altmer have never had any martial skill bonuses and Orcs and Khajiits have never had any magic skill bonuses. But ZOS logic
*Ahem* Battle mages/spell swords. Using swords amd magic
The new change definatley supports hybrid builds, but as of today as a stamina altmer I am doing pretty much better than I was before. Its just a small change for players who would like it for their character builds. Khajiit have crit anyway if I remember.i love borzois!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
bluelights400✭✭✭MorganaBlue wrote: »You could always play Altmer with swords. However, that won't give you the highest dps- neither before, nor after these changes...
totally agree^^
OP....please don't bring your hybrid build into my vet trial or vDLC. Have a blast with them if you find them fun, but don't illude yourself that you'll be competitive - you won't.
Edit for context
Good news btw as of the update, I am doing better than before on my altmer. Guess I'll see you in that trial 😉i love borzois!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!3 -
TheNuminous1✭✭✭✭✭
✭StarOfElyon wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »
Harder than a redguard or nord, you know 2 races that are supposed to be hitting hard with swords and the like rather than dedicated magicka races:)
IDC my head canon states that my altmer hit hard and are very skilled with weapons. Frfr
In my head canon, Altmer were never "magic only". They had warriors and spell swords too. The outside world saw their prowess with magic and stereotyped them as being capable with magic only - but that was far from the truth. They were not a match for an Orc in brute strength but an Altmer warrior has centuries to perfect sword techniques.
My hybrid was never as gifted as her sister with magic but she did learn that separating someone's head from their body with a battle axe could be just as effective (and cathartic).
Don't the battle reeves have to train for like 500 years to be a grand battle reeve. Isnt there the auridon marines and like a bunch of other altmeri orders that are martial and use physical weapons over magic. It's totally Canon that elves are good with physical ability. Any race that could live that long could become good at probably anything.2 -
NoSoup✭✭✭✭✭MorganaBlue wrote: »You could always play Altmer with swords. However, that won't give you the highest dps- neither before, nor after these changes...
totally agree^^
OP....please don't bring your hybrid build into my vet trial or vDLC. Have a blast with them if you find them fun, but don't illude yourself that you'll be competitive - you won't.
Edit for context
If he or she is doing 50k dps already then I'd say they're better than most players you'd fine a vDLC or vet trial these days....Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....3 -
NoSoup✭✭✭✭✭Its a stupid change much like ZOS giving Orc spell damage but what do you expect from the people who try and make Khajiits mages. In all the TES games Altmer have never had any martial skill bonuses and Orcs and Khajiits have never had any magic skill bonuses. But ZOS logic
ZOS has new owners so they have to feed the cash cow. Strip Orcs of max Stam to force people to buy race changes. Reverse decision in 6 months & remove a resource from Dunmer.......Formally SirDopey, lost forum account during the great reset.....0 -
ealdwin✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheNuminous1 wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »
Harder than a redguard or nord, you know 2 races that are supposed to be hitting hard with swords and the like rather than dedicated magicka races:)
IDC my head canon states that my altmer hit hard and are very skilled with weapons. Frfr
In my head canon, Altmer were never "magic only". They had warriors and spell swords too. The outside world saw their prowess with magic and stereotyped them as being capable with magic only - but that was far from the truth. They were not a match for an Orc in brute strength but an Altmer warrior has centuries to perfect sword techniques.
My hybrid was never as gifted as her sister with magic but she did learn that separating someone's head from their body with a battle axe could be just as effective (and cathartic).
Don't the battle reeves have to train for like 500 years to be a grand battle reeve. Isnt there the auridon marines and like a bunch of other altmeri orders that are martial and use physical weapons over magic. It's totally Canon that elves are good with physical ability. Any race that could live that long could become good at probably anything.
If we are talking lore-wise, then the racial passives in the previous games represent natural in-born abilities and strengths/weaknesses inherent in every race. These racial bonuses were not meant to reflect what was possible for each race to achieve, but rather the nature of each race that results in an affinity for different pursuits.
So, for Altmer, their racial bonuses in previous games reflects their in-born natural gift for magical pursuits. We see in TES IV: Oblivion, that they receive massive boosts to their Magicka pools through starting boosts to Intelligence, as well as starting boosts in 6 magical skills. These bonus did not limit a high elf from becoming a renowned warrior, but rather that one seeking to do so would have to put more work into doing so.
If a novice Altmer picked up a sword for the first time and found themselves against a novice Nord also picking up a sword for the first time, they would be at a natural disadvantage. The opposite would go for the Nord if they and the Altmer were attempting to cast a flame spell for the first time. (But, these are also generalizations, and not reflective of all members of the children of Kyne or the descendants of Old Elnohfey. Racial passives reflect the natural talents of the average member.)
For a more general example, consider how Maria and Wolfgang Mozart had a natural affinity for music, being able to pick it up from a young age and excel. Certainly, there was nothing stopping them from pursuing a different endeavor—they could have become just as good fencers. But, it would have taken more work. They took to music easier than others. And so, in ESO, Altmer take to magic easier than others. But nothing is stopping them from pursuing other endeavors.
Where am I going with this?
There is no lore backing up the notion of Altmer having a Weapon Damage bonus. Despite some members of their race becoming notable or even decent warriors, those are more the result of years of dedication and not the natural affinities that racial bonuses reflect (or should reflect). If racial bonuses in ESO reflected the full potential of a race, then you would see Breton passives all over the place, reflecting their cultural enjoyment of intellectual, commercial, and espionage-related pursuits. But, cultural enjoyments are not the same as natural affinities. So, no, it is not Canon that Altmer have an affinity for physical pursuits. But there's nothing stopping them from partaking in such.
But, ESO has different gameplay elements than in the previous single player games. And sometimes decisions are made from a gameplay perspective that contradict the established lore. And that is what is happening here. A gameplay decision has been made that goes against the lore. But, such a decision makes it easier for a player to pursue physical endeavors on an Altmer, thus lessening the impact of race in one instance. It's not a bad decision. But, do not let us mistake it as abiding by the lore as established in previous games. The change is purely for gameplay related reasons—not lore.3 -
SirPaws✭✭✭
If we are talking lore-wise, then the racial passives in the previous games represent natural in-born abilities and strengths/weaknesses inherent in every race. These racial bonuses were not meant to reflect what was possible for each race to achieve, but rather the nature of each race that results in an affinity for different pursuits.
So, for Altmer, their racial bonuses in previous games reflects their in-born natural gift for magical pursuits. We see in TES IV: Oblivion, that they receive massive boosts to their Magicka pools through starting boosts to Intelligence, as well as starting boosts in 6 magical skills. These bonus did not limit a high elf from becoming a renowned warrior, but rather that one seeking to do so would have to put more work into doing so.
If a novice Altmer picked up a sword for the first time and found themselves against a novice Nord also picking up a sword for the first time, they would be at a natural disadvantage. The opposite would go for the Nord if they and the Altmer were attempting to cast a flame spell for the first time. (But, these are also generalizations, and not reflective of all members of the children of Kyne or the descendants of Old Elnohfey. Racial passives reflect the natural talents of the average member.)
For a more general example, consider how Maria and Wolfgang Mozart had a natural affinity for music, being able to pick it up from a young age and excel. Certainly, there was nothing stopping them from pursuing a different endeavor—they could have become just as good fencers. But, it would have taken more work. They took to music easier than others. And so, in ESO, Altmer take to magic easier than others. But nothing is stopping them from pursuing other endeavors.
Where am I going with this?
There is no lore backing up the notion of Altmer having a Weapon Damage bonus. Despite some members of their race becoming notable or even decent warriors, those are more the result of years of dedication and not the natural affinities that racial bonuses reflect (or should reflect). If racial bonuses in ESO reflected the full potential of a race, then you would see Breton passives all over the place, reflecting their cultural enjoyment of intellectual, commercial, and espionage-related pursuits. But, cultural enjoyments are not the same as natural affinities. So, no, it is not Canon that Altmer have an affinity for physical pursuits. But there's nothing stopping them from partaking in such.
But, ESO has different gameplay elements than in the previous single player games. And sometimes decisions are made from a gameplay perspective that contradict the established lore. And that is what is happening here. A gameplay decision has been made that goes against the lore. But, such a decision makes it easier for a player to pursue physical endeavors on an Altmer, thus lessening the impact of race in one instance. It's not a bad decision. But, do not let us mistake it as abiding by the lore as established in previous games. The change is purely for gameplay related reasons—not lore.
Well-written and insightful, good post. While I agree with the ultimate point that the changes are for gameplay reasons, I disagree with the idea these changes do not abide by previous lore established.
In general, gameplay never truly equals lore due to the limitations of a given game's system. Nor is gameplay consistent across multiple games within the series. For example, it is established lore that Altmer are strongly gifted in the arcane arts and each game's lore description gives us a variation of that sentiment.
However, it can't be said that Altmer are naturally weaker to magic than other races. In TES Oblivion they were, but not in Skyrim or ESO. So, we cannot take established gameplay from previous games as being exact lore.
That said, we can take the general theme that Altmer are naturally gifted in the arcane arts as being lore and see how that fits into a different game system. In Skyrim's system, I agree that it gave us advantages and disadvantages reflecting our racial choice when starting out, but that evened out by endgame so that there was little to distinguish a Nord and Altmer by level 50.
In ESO, the game's system is such that racial choice does impact the endgame, even if only by a hair. ESO also gives us something new that previous game systems didn't need to really deal with: The concept of martial magic.
For example, from a lore point of view what is the difference between a Magicka Warden and a Stamina Warden? Both can stir up a group of shalks to attack an enemy and both groups of shalks are either magical in nature or effect. We could say that a Magicka Warden makes this happen by harnessing the magicka of the the world around him/her while a Stamina Warden harnesses their internal magicka or vitality. Or something else entirely.
Whatever way we use to describe the difference between magicka and stamina skills, we are left with a narrow margin seperating magic and martial skills and effects. Why, then, does it make more sense to play an Altmer as a magicka Warden instead of a stamina Warden? What seperates the two?
So, my point is that an increase to an Altmer's weapon damage fits the idea that they are naturally gifted in the arcane arts, for weapon damage will affect the potency of my stamina Warden's shalks. Whether I play stamina or magicka, the idea that my Altmer is naturally gifted in the arcane stays consistently true and therefore fits in with established lore.3 -
Grianasteri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes?
The archetypal magica race from across the fantasy genre... in ESO now does more stam based damage than several stam based races... makes sense.
Why dont they just scrap racial passives altogether and save us from this slow erosion of racial individuality.
Again of course, this is a PVP issues impacting PVE. Why cant they just deal with this kind of thing through battle spirit adjustments for PVP only and stop messing with PVE, surely this would be preferable...0 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TheNuminous1 wrote: »StarOfElyon wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »
Harder than a redguard or nord, you know 2 races that are supposed to be hitting hard with swords and the like rather than dedicated magicka races:)
IDC my head canon states that my altmer hit hard and are very skilled with weapons. Frfr
In my head canon, Altmer were never "magic only". They had warriors and spell swords too. The outside world saw their prowess with magic and stereotyped them as being capable with magic only - but that was far from the truth. They were not a match for an Orc in brute strength but an Altmer warrior has centuries to perfect sword techniques.
My hybrid was never as gifted as her sister with magic but she did learn that separating someone's head from their body with a battle axe could be just as effective (and cathartic).
Don't the battle reeves have to train for like 500 years to be a grand battle reeve. Isnt there the auridon marines and like a bunch of other altmeri orders that are martial and use physical weapons over magic. It's totally Canon that elves are good with physical ability. Any race that could live that long could become good at probably anything.
If we are talking lore-wise, then the racial passives in the previous games represent natural in-born abilities and strengths/weaknesses inherent in every race. These racial bonuses were not meant to reflect what was possible for each race to achieve, but rather the nature of each race that results in an affinity for different pursuits.
So, for Altmer, their racial bonuses in previous games reflects their in-born natural gift for magical pursuits. We see in TES IV: Oblivion, that they receive massive boosts to their Magicka pools through starting boosts to Intelligence, as well as starting boosts in 6 magical skills. These bonus did not limit a high elf from becoming a renowned warrior, but rather that one seeking to do so would have to put more work into doing so.
If a novice Altmer picked up a sword for the first time and found themselves against a novice Nord also picking up a sword for the first time, they would be at a natural disadvantage. The opposite would go for the Nord if they and the Altmer were attempting to cast a flame spell for the first time. (But, these are also generalizations, and not reflective of all members of the children of Kyne or the descendants of Old Elnohfey. Racial passives reflect the natural talents of the average member.)
For a more general example, consider how Maria and Wolfgang Mozart had a natural affinity for music, being able to pick it up from a young age and excel. Certainly, there was nothing stopping them from pursuing a different endeavor—they could have become just as good fencers. But, it would have taken more work. They took to music easier than others. And so, in ESO, Altmer take to magic easier than others. But nothing is stopping them from pursuing other endeavors.
Where am I going with this?
There is no lore backing up the notion of Altmer having a Weapon Damage bonus. Despite some members of their race becoming notable or even decent warriors, those are more the result of years of dedication and not the natural affinities that racial bonuses reflect (or should reflect). If racial bonuses in ESO reflected the full potential of a race, then you would see Breton passives all over the place, reflecting their cultural enjoyment of intellectual, commercial, and espionage-related pursuits. But, cultural enjoyments are not the same as natural affinities. So, no, it is not Canon that Altmer have an affinity for physical pursuits. But there's nothing stopping them from partaking in such.
But, ESO has different gameplay elements than in the previous single player games. And sometimes decisions are made from a gameplay perspective that contradict the established lore. And that is what is happening here. A gameplay decision has been made that goes against the lore. But, such a decision makes it easier for a player to pursue physical endeavors on an Altmer, thus lessening the impact of race in one instance. It's not a bad decision. But, do not let us mistake it as abiding by the lore as established in previous games. The change is purely for gameplay related reasons—not lore.
I agree. It's just the way the game works. Without stamina regeneration, max stamina, or weapon damage, it's hard to play with physical weapons. So weapon damage seems less like an innate thing than a stamina resource pool or regeneration does. I don't think the older games even had "weapon damage". ZOS created that stat so it's the least "lore breaking" trait to give Altmer, in my opinion. Giving them stamina or stamina regeneration (like spell recharge) is probably what's actually lore breaking. But again, it's just the way the game works. But all that said, I would have gladly taken just 129 weapon damage (better than nothing). But I understand ZOS standardizing things this way.0 -
Integral1900✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I am genuinely confused at this point.
Why should high elves having the same bonus to magic and weapon damage be a surprise?
In this and pretty much every other fantasy world they are described as being amongst if not the greatest warriors in existence.
A combination of superhuman reflexes and vast lifespans.
To me it made no sense that they would only gain skill on the magic side of it when the games own history has examples of formidable high elf swords wielders.
Never played one yet but I think it’s time to change that.0 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭bluelights400 wrote: »srsly why did they gave altmer a weap bonus? lol
I give up trying to figure stuff out. Like some races fit their roles from the series perfect, or at least one role. Then they give others stuff they never had or roles they were never known for. They also seem to not care about some races, it's just wtf at this point.
I mean skyrim races had very little effect on playstyle, which I liked. Lots of orc users and altmee users wanted to do mag and stam builde but felt limited. This spell+wep dmg increase is a really nice addition. Altmer in the lore also have weapon users, and I always wanted my classes to have this. My redguard hasn't got a wep dmg increase, but lots of stam, my altmer has a nice balance of stam, and mag (which as a stam sorc is great bc of the stam resource restore ability). The fact I now have the wep dmg increase is nice for PVP and PVE reason. Same goes for orcs btw. It to me comes down to character building. You want an orc that grew up in a breton village and excelled at magic? Cool you can now do that. Doesn't change the meta, just adds something nice for those of us character builders.
didnt changed the fact lets say.. that dunmer were so good against dragons flame. imo pretty good passive that you cant really neglect.
and you could still do that with old altmer though. thats what people here seem to not understand.
without 258wd you could enter the vet trial and do absolute beast damage anyway. instead of 100k it would be 90k but hey, everything dies way too fast at this point why care then?
people here have this "you can do everything but vet trials or score boards" nahh even thats wrong. you can still do those.
and i didnt even mentioned dungeons and overland stuff. those are piece of cake regardless of what you choose.
source: i was a stam dark elf way before our passives changed drastically with the update like 2-3 years ago.
2 -
Evil_Rurouni✭✭✭bluelights400 wrote: »
And now I'm visualising your Altmer looking like this when they're practicing on the training dummy:
[snip]
[edited for inappropriate content]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 27, 2021 2:44PM1 -
Scardan✭✭✭✭✭Evil_Rurouni wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »
And now I'm visualising your Altmer looking like this when they're practicing on the training dummy:
[snip]
Edge alignment for a cut looks good. Something wrong is with the blade. Look, the moment it impacts at right angle it actually contra twists, ouch.
So, you see altmers testing bad made swords. Ookay
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 27, 2021 2:44PMLet's be extremely precise in our use of terms.1 -
Evil_Rurouni✭✭✭Evil_Rurouni wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »
And now I'm visualising your Altmer looking like this when they're practicing on the training dummy:
[snip]
Edge alignment for a cut looks good. Something wrong is with the blade. Look, the moment it impacts at right angle it actually contra twists, ouch.
So, you see altmers testing bad made swords. Ookay
Yeah, probably.
All of the steel swords I've handled over the years had some flex, but not THAT much.
Something ain't right with it.
We're kinda killing a joke post by being overly serious tho.
Its a dude slapping a pigs arse with a floppy sword.
Its funny.
Let fun things be fun.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 27, 2021 2:45PM3 -
JohnOfMarkarth✭✭✭bluelights400 wrote: »I'm so happy. I have stamina based altmer, and nowI can play how Ive seen in ever trailer altmers being- with swords! Ive always wanted to have a super functioning altmer guy who can do more than just 50k, hopefully this increase will help me more Thank you devs, please ever nerf this I want to do hard trials 9n my dps soon thanks!!!!!!
No... no.
NO.
nords should have gotten weapon damage years... decades... millenia... *insert how long universe exists here*... before altmer punks.
Bretons should have gotten weapon dmg before altmer.
Bosmer should have gotten magic dmg before altmer got weapon dmg
Every race should have gotten its oppositor before altmer did and it would make more sense than this absurdity beyond comprehension.Integral1900 wrote: »I am genuinely confused at this point.
Why should high elves having the same bonus to magic and weapon damage be a surprise?
In this and pretty much every other fantasy world they are described as being amongst if not the greatest warriors in existence.
A combination of superhuman reflexes and vast lifespans.
To me it made no sense that they would only gain skill on the magic side of it when the games own history has examples of formidable high elf swords wielders.
Never played one yet but I think it’s time to change that.
Id like to call Penn and Teller here to say words "bs" atop their lungs.
Cus:
1) Every race has stories of a formidable *insert opposite of its stereotype* so that point about altmer having great swordsmen becomes irrelevant due to its lack of specialness
2) This lore does not say anything and i mean ANYTHING. About them being "amongst if not the greatest warriors in existence." by any source that isnt altmer themselves, thus invalidated.
3) Racial presence/Existence isnt so varied in ES as it is in other ... elf worshipping literature. IE: High Elves arent... tens of thousands of years older race as other races. Theres even theory (just like anything you could say to it being otherwise; speculation) that high elves are descendants of Ayleids and Aldmeris is merely a legend without substance.
Examples of point 1):
- Shalidor, the Nord mage that even Elves had great respect for
- *Insert any imperial of note from Reman Era here... any*
- *insert any spinner of Yffre*
- *Insert the entirety of Bretonic culture based on proving themselves either financially, socially, magically, or in combat, breeding surprisingly capable fighters*
And saying that "Altmer have a Warrior's caste" doesnt mean much... When some cultures dont even need such caste when everyone is required to be such. Or have its equivalents.
That argument has more flaws than a child's drawing of a human face, while it tries to be realistic but fails at all fronts.So, my point is that an increase to an Altmer's weapon damage fits the idea that they are naturally gifted in the arcane arts, for weapon damage will affect the potency of my stamina Warden's shalks. Whether I play stamina or magicka, the idea that my Altmer is naturally gifted in the arcane stays consistently true and therefore fits in with established lore.
Then... why... cant a nord be naturaly gifted with a sword at all in this game...
I get you. But I dont think this game's racial passives have any right to be defended at all anymore after these changes.I can't do this anymore. Every small ... petit change that went against any semblance of sense has snowballed into an avalanche of (Penn & Teller:) Bulls...!
Gods, bless me with patience.1 -
SirPaws✭✭✭JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »I'm so happy. I have stamina based altmer, and nowI can play how Ive seen in ever trailer altmers being- with swords! Ive always wanted to have a super functioning altmer guy who can do more than just 50k, hopefully this increase will help me more Thank you devs, please ever nerf this I want to do hard trials 9n my dps soon thanks!!!!!!
No... no.
NO.
nords should have gotten weapon damage years... decades... millenia... *insert how long universe exists here*... before altmer punks.
Bretons should have gotten weapon dmg before altmer.
Bosmer should have gotten magic dmg before altmer got weapon dmg
Every race should have gotten its oppositor before altmer did and it would make more sense than this absurdity beyond comprehension.Integral1900 wrote: »I am genuinely confused at this point.
Why should high elves having the same bonus to magic and weapon damage be a surprise?
In this and pretty much every other fantasy world they are described as being amongst if not the greatest warriors in existence.
A combination of superhuman reflexes and vast lifespans.
To me it made no sense that they would only gain skill on the magic side of it when the games own history has examples of formidable high elf swords wielders.
Never played one yet but I think it’s time to change that.
Id like to call Penn and Teller here to say words "bs" atop their lungs.
Cus:
1) Every race has stories of a formidable *insert opposite of its stereotype* so that point about altmer having great swordsmen becomes irrelevant due to its lack of specialness
2) This lore does not say anything and i mean ANYTHING. About them being "amongst if not the greatest warriors in existence." by any source that isnt altmer themselves, thus invalidated.
3) Racial presence/Existence isnt so varied in ES as it is in other ... elf worshipping literature. IE: High Elves arent... tens of thousands of years older race as other races. Theres even theory (just like anything you could say to it being otherwise; speculation) that high elves are descendants of Ayleids and Aldmeris is merely a legend without substance.
Examples of point 1):
- Shalidor, the Nord mage that even Elves had great respect for
- *Insert any imperial of note from Reman Era here... any*
- *insert any spinner of Yffre*
- *Insert the entirety of Bretonic culture based on proving themselves either financially, socially, magically, or in combat, breeding surprisingly capable fighters*
And saying that "Altmer have a Warrior's caste" doesnt mean much... When some cultures dont even need such caste when everyone is required to be such. Or have its equivalents.
That argument has more flaws than a child's drawing of a human face, while it tries to be realistic but fails at all fronts.So, my point is that an increase to an Altmer's weapon damage fits the idea that they are naturally gifted in the arcane arts, for weapon damage will affect the potency of my stamina Warden's shalks. Whether I play stamina or magicka, the idea that my Altmer is naturally gifted in the arcane stays consistently true and therefore fits in with established lore.
Then... why... cant a nord be naturaly gifted with a sword at all in this game...
I get you. But I dont think this game's racial passives have any right to be defended at all anymore after these changes.
I think Nords still take the top spot for tanking and remain a solid choice for solo content, preserving the "strong, hardy and resilient" aspects of established lore. Their 1500 bonus to stamina equals about 150 weapon damage if you're inclined to interpret it that way.
I totally get the frustration, though. I have a Nord stamden damage-dealer for that classic ranger archetype. The bear companion, skills reflecting the natural world and the whole ice theme of the Warden class fit Nords like a glove, yet they never get into the top three DPS slots. That said, I think Nords remain in a good place for the content I enjoy.
It's the Redguard fans I feel bad for.0 -
JohnOfMarkarth✭✭✭JohnOfMarkarth wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »I'm so happy. I have stamina based altmer, and nowI can play how Ive seen in ever trailer altmers being- with swords! Ive always wanted to have a super functioning altmer guy who can do more than just 50k, hopefully this increase will help me more Thank you devs, please ever nerf this I want to do hard trials 9n my dps soon thanks!!!!!!
No... no.
NO.
nords should have gotten weapon damage years... decades... millenia... *insert how long universe exists here*... before altmer punks.
Bretons should have gotten weapon dmg before altmer.
Bosmer should have gotten magic dmg before altmer got weapon dmg
Every race should have gotten its oppositor before altmer did and it would make more sense than this absurdity beyond comprehension.Integral1900 wrote: »I am genuinely confused at this point.
Why should high elves having the same bonus to magic and weapon damage be a surprise?
In this and pretty much every other fantasy world they are described as being amongst if not the greatest warriors in existence.
A combination of superhuman reflexes and vast lifespans.
To me it made no sense that they would only gain skill on the magic side of it when the games own history has examples of formidable high elf swords wielders.
Never played one yet but I think it’s time to change that.
Id like to call Penn and Teller here to say words "bs" atop their lungs.
Cus:
1) Every race has stories of a formidable *insert opposite of its stereotype* so that point about altmer having great swordsmen becomes irrelevant due to its lack of specialness
2) This lore does not say anything and i mean ANYTHING. About them being "amongst if not the greatest warriors in existence." by any source that isnt altmer themselves, thus invalidated.
3) Racial presence/Existence isnt so varied in ES as it is in other ... elf worshipping literature. IE: High Elves arent... tens of thousands of years older race as other races. Theres even theory (just like anything you could say to it being otherwise; speculation) that high elves are descendants of Ayleids and Aldmeris is merely a legend without substance.
Examples of point 1):
- Shalidor, the Nord mage that even Elves had great respect for
- *Insert any imperial of note from Reman Era here... any*
- *insert any spinner of Yffre*
- *Insert the entirety of Bretonic culture based on proving themselves either financially, socially, magically, or in combat, breeding surprisingly capable fighters*
And saying that "Altmer have a Warrior's caste" doesnt mean much... When some cultures dont even need such caste when everyone is required to be such. Or have its equivalents.
That argument has more flaws than a child's drawing of a human face, while it tries to be realistic but fails at all fronts.So, my point is that an increase to an Altmer's weapon damage fits the idea that they are naturally gifted in the arcane arts, for weapon damage will affect the potency of my stamina Warden's shalks. Whether I play stamina or magicka, the idea that my Altmer is naturally gifted in the arcane stays consistently true and therefore fits in with established lore.
Then... why... cant a nord be naturaly gifted with a sword at all in this game...
I get you. But I dont think this game's racial passives have any right to be defended at all anymore after these changes.
I think Nords still take the top spot for tanking and remain a solid choice for solo content, preserving the "strong, hardy and resilient" aspects of established lore. Their 1500 bonus to stamina equals about 150 weapon damage if you're inclined to interpret it that way.
I totally get the frustration, though. I have a Nord stamden damage-dealer for that classic ranger archetype. The bear companion, skills reflecting the natural world and the whole ice theme of the Warden class fit Nords like a glove, yet they never get into the top three DPS slots. That said, I think Nords remain in a good place for the content I enjoy.
It's the Redguard fans I feel bad for.
Nord ultigen only tops Imperial cost reduction in short bosses. So nah i dont think nords are even top (this is what supposedly makes them unique).
Redguards and Nords suffer the same fate in this:
They are given one. ONE role they can try. And they dont even top in that game. What is a nord good for outside... tanking (a friendly ... daily reminder that Nord ultigen is ON BEING HIT. Which is ONLY good for a TANK)...
unlike altmer (who can now stam and mag... and outbrawn a nord, outsword a redguard... like what the Penn and Teller's favourite word, orc... dunmer... bretons (who can heal and dd acceptably well)... 'jiits
But i also feel kinda bad for Argonauts. I mean Agroneans... Agrarian slaves? --- uhh. The lads that are being treated badly by ash-knife-earsI can't do this anymore. Every small ... petit change that went against any semblance of sense has snowballed into an avalanche of (Penn & Teller:) Bulls...!
Gods, bless me with patience.0 -
bluelights400✭✭✭
If we are talking lore-wise, then the racial passives in the previous games represent natural in-born abilities and strengths/weaknesses inherent in every race. These racial bonuses were not meant to reflect what was possible for each race to achieve, but rather the nature of each race that results in an affinity for different pursuits.
So, for Altmer, their racial bonuses in previous games reflects their in-born natural gift for magical pursuits. We see in TES IV: Oblivion, that they receive massive boosts to their Magicka pools through starting boosts to Intelligence, as well as starting boosts in 6 magical skills. These bonus did not limit a high elf from becoming a renowned warrior, but rather that one seeking to do so would have to put more work into doing so.
If a novice Altmer picked up a sword for the first time and found themselves against a novice Nord also picking up a sword for the first time, they would be at a natural disadvantage. The opposite would go for the Nord if they and the Altmer were attempting to cast a flame spell for the first time. (But, these are also generalizations, and not reflective of all members of the children of Kyne or the descendants of Old Elnohfey. Racial passives reflect the natural talents of the average member.)
For a more general example, consider how Maria and Wolfgang Mozart had a natural affinity for music, being able to pick it up from a young age and excel. Certainly, there was nothing stopping them from pursuing a different endeavor—they could have become just as good fencers. But, it would have taken more work. They took to music easier than others. And so, in ESO, Altmer take to magic easier than others. But nothing is stopping them from pursuing other endeavors.
Where am I going with this?
There is no lore backing up the notion of Altmer having a Weapon Damage bonus. Despite some members of their race becoming notable or even decent warriors, those are more the result of years of dedication and not the natural affinities that racial bonuses reflect (or should reflect). If racial bonuses in ESO reflected the full potential of a race, then you would see Breton passives all over the place, reflecting their cultural enjoyment of intellectual, commercial, and espionage-related pursuits. But, cultural enjoyments are not the same as natural affinities. So, no, it is not Canon that Altmer have an affinity for physical pursuits. But there's nothing stopping them from partaking in such.
But, ESO has different gameplay elements than in the previous single player games. And sometimes decisions are made from a gameplay perspective that contradict the established lore. And that is what is happening here. A gameplay decision has been made that goes against the lore. But, such a decision makes it easier for a player to pursue physical endeavors on an Altmer, thus lessening the impact of race in one instance. It's not a bad decision. But, do not let us mistake it as abiding by the lore as established in previous games. The change is purely for gameplay related reasons—not lore.
Well-written and insightful, good post. While I agree with the ultimate point that the changes are for gameplay reasons, I disagree with the idea these changes do not abide by previous lore established.
In general, gameplay never truly equals lore due to the limitations of a given game's system. Nor is gameplay consistent across multiple games within the series. For example, it is established lore that Altmer are strongly gifted in the arcane arts and each game's lore description gives us a variation of that sentiment.
However, it can't be said that Altmer are naturally weaker to magic than other races. In TES Oblivion they were, but not in Skyrim or ESO. So, we cannot take established gameplay from previous games as being exact lore.
That said, we can take the general theme that Altmer are naturally gifted in the arcane arts as being lore and see how that fits into a different game system. In Skyrim's system, I agree that it gave us advantages and disadvantages reflecting our racial choice when starting out, but that evened out by endgame so that there was little to distinguish a Nord and Altmer by level 50.
In ESO, the game's system is such that racial choice does impact the endgame, even if only by a hair. ESO also gives us something new that previous game systems didn't need to really deal with: The concept of martial magic.
For example, from a lore point of view what is the difference between a Magicka Warden and a Stamina Warden? Both can stir up a group of shalks to attack an enemy and both groups of shalks are either magical in nature or effect. We could say that a Magicka Warden makes this happen by harnessing the magicka of the the world around him/her while a Stamina Warden harnesses their internal magicka or vitality. Or something else entirely.
Whatever way we use to describe the difference between magicka and stamina skills, we are left with a narrow margin seperating magic and martial skills and effects. Why, then, does it make more sense to play an Altmer as a magicka Warden instead of a stamina Warden? What seperates the two?
So, my point is that an increase to an Altmer's weapon damage fits the idea that they are naturally gifted in the arcane arts, for weapon damage will affect the potency of my stamina Warden's shalks. Whether I play stamina or magicka, the idea that my Altmer is naturally gifted in the arcane stays consistently true and therefore fits in with established lore.
I completley agree. Plus magic in the TES universe can be health based or even stamina based Its very weird as you look at equilibrium or stam morph of jabs, its obvious magic, just with a different sourcei love borzois!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
milesrodneymcneely2_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I HATE to be the guy that brings real world anything into an Elder Scrolls game, but - as a Jiu Jitsu practitioner - TRUST me on this:StarOfElyon wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »bluelights400 wrote: »
Harder than a redguard or nord, you know 2 races that are supposed to be hitting hard with swords and the like rather than dedicated magicka races:)
IDC my head canon states that my altmer hit hard and are very skilled with weapons. Frfr
In my head canon, Altmer were never "magic only". They had warriors and spell swords too. The outside world saw their prowess with magic and stereotyped them as being capable with magic only - but that was far from the truth. They were not a match for an Orc in brute strength but an Altmer warrior has centuries to perfect sword techniques.
My hybrid was never as gifted as her sister with magic but she did learn that separating someone's head from their body with a battle axe could be just as effective (and cathartic).
If I was in Elder Scrolls and I wanted to be the best grappler in the bunch, I would DEFINITELY want to be born an Altmer.
That six-and-a-half to seven-foot-tall frame with those long arms and legs? Sign me UP!1 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You could always play Altmer with swords. However, that won't give you the highest dps- neither before, nor after these changes...MorganaBlue wrote: »You could always play Altmer with swords. However, that won't give you the highest dps- neither before, nor after these changes...
totally agree^^
OP....please don't bring your hybrid build into my vet trial or vDLC. Have a blast with them if you find them fun, but don't illude yourself that you'll be competitive - you won't.
Edit for context
I love how important people think 2k resources makes to a dps parse.
Resources are probably the lowest form of increasing your damage and thats really all you give up playing a High Elf instead of a Dark Elf. I'm willing to bet it's like 2-3% dps since at the highest level you gain 5-6% dps from a best in slot race vs one that doesn't help at all.
Please tell me how a 110k parse can't compete with a 105k parse? The point is, it can, it's entirely based on the skill level of the user, racial passives really don't do as much of a difference as we like to think, a best in slot race isn't going to magically fix a bad Damage Dealer and some people can't wrap their head around that for whatever reason.
Edit: Commented on some old comments, but still relevant I guess.Edited by MashmalloMan on October 15, 2021 1:23PMPC Beta - 2200+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit2 -
Syrpynt✭✭✭I just wanted to say, before Skyrim Argonians were always known as mages, thieves, assassins. In Morrowind Argonians made some of the best Nightblade. So you come to ESO thinking yeah I can play what I always played and be competitive, that seemed not to be the case. You find out your race on here is a complete flip from the whole series, had the lowest stats for healing and tanking. So you hope and hope and hope they adjust or change it, and they never seem to care. Then you see Altmer known for magic in the entire series get weapon dmg. You are just sitting and wondering, why they can make that race a good dps, but not yours when it was known for it. It just feels like the combat team does't care about that race. It feels like they see how overwhelming the hate in the community is for a single race, so they decide to ignore it. That's honestly how it feels.
That's because in ESO, Healing and damage are still (stupidly) linked to the same stats. The stronger bonus you get to heals, the more you can focus on damage and you have more survivability despite doing slightly less damage. People who want both are arguing that healers shouldn't even have a role in an MMO.
If they made a single-player client based server, then the self-healing buff would make sense. Until then, it's a "feature"
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Stx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The racials in this game are atrocious. Poorly balanced, and go against the original lore of the game.
I still play the races I want to regardless of stats, but it pisses me off that I'm basically playing with a handicap for no reason other than ZoS sucks at implementing useful racials.1 -
Syrpynt✭✭✭The racials in this game are atrocious. Poorly balanced, and go against the original lore of the game.
I still play the races I want to regardless of stats, but it pisses me off that I'm basically playing with a handicap for no reason other than ZoS sucks at implementing useful racials.
It's the "MMO" portion that keeps breaking the lore-friendly features.
TES single player games are balanced in that the player isn't too OP compared to mobs and there's a difficulty slider to adjust. There's no animation cancelling that gives you wild "dps" numbers. There's actual need to block or heavy attack other than resource regeneration (to stun).
Remember when the racial passives were tiny and then an update a few years ago "gave them more meaning"? Well the meaning gapped casuals from doing end-game content. So here we are. Make the gap bigger, and you *** off more people and they leave the game.
The "rebalancing" is done to make players who asked for stuff for years, that gave up, return to the game. Simple as that.
Do you want to be a spellsword? This is the first step, with the new update. Will it be perfect the first time? No. Because it's an MMO and someone will exploit the best combo and ruin PvP with it, like every patch, and the complainers/streamers will make changes vicariously through the devs.0 -
Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Have fun! For most content, any race/spec combo can work and be effective (and if you really know what you're doing you can even be more efefctive than someone who doesn't but has a more optimized combo). I hope they can give redguards some love too at some point, right now all races can bring something to the table whether it's pve or pvp, but redguard falls back in that regard.0 -
moleculardrugs✭✭✭✭MorganaBlue wrote: »You could always play Altmer with swords. However, that won't give you the highest dps- neither before, nor after these changes...
totally agree^^
OP....please don't bring your hybrid build into my vet trial or vDLC. Have a blast with them if you find them fun, but don't illude yourself that you'll be competitive - you won't.
Edit for context
Oh, so you’re one of those players that like to form assumptions before giving anyone the chance? Having a Stam High Elf may not chase the highest DPS possible but it won’t bring an entire group down and make it difficult to complete a vDLC. If the elf has high penetration and decent weapon damage, it will do just fine.0 -
milllaurie✭✭✭✭MorganaBlue wrote: »You could always play Altmer with swords. However, that won't give you the highest dps- neither before, nor after these changes...
totally agree^^
OP....please don't bring your hybrid build into my vet trial or vDLC. Have a blast with them if you find them fun, but don't illude yourself that you'll be competitive - you won't.
Edit for context
How is altmer with swords hybrid? DW is a legit option to push spell dmg now.
Edit:nvm, old thread, brainfartEdited by milllaurie on December 28, 2021 4:46PM0