Server Lag and Light Attacks: Its a problem.

Unknown_Redemption

There is a new addon that just released for PC called "Perfect Weave". It essentially is asking players to spam everything 3x as often to line up perfect millisecond delays and queues. And while it is not blatantly stating it, it looks like an addon for people who macro. While you guys are investigating how to relieve server strain, you may want to consider reworking LAs again. If player combat actions are being tripled only to add that 12-15k dps its not worth it. LAs should be used to proc enchants/poisons or snag enemy attention in PvE, but do no significant damage.

QuebraRegra

interesting... consider also that ESO is TCP based rathe than UDP, and all the additional ACKs, etc.

Rungar

Unknown_Redemption wrote: »

There is a new addon that just released for PC called "Perfect Weave". It essentially is asking players to spam everything 3x as often to line up perfect millisecond delays and queues. And while it is not blatantly stating it, it looks like an addon for people who macro. While you guys are investigating how to relieve server strain, you may want to consider reworking LAs again. If player combat actions are being tripled only to add that 12-15k dps its not worth it. LAs should be used to proc enchants/poisons or snag enemy attention in PvE, but do no significant damage.

Time to reactivate the holy weaving inquisition again. Blasphemy against the righteous and holy weaving will not be tolerated.

Goregrinder

Yeah I wasn't a fan of LA weaving when I first started back at 2014 launch...but don't worry, you get used to it. Now I can't imagine playing ESO any other way, it's just become second nature to me!

Grimlok_S

QuebraRegra wrote: »

interesting... consider also that ESO is TCP based rathe than UDP, and all the additional ACKs, etc.

I would like to know more about what this means

Rungar

Grimlok_S wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

interesting... consider also that ESO is TCP based rathe than UDP, and all the additional ACKs, etc.

I would like to know more about what this means

ITs two different ways of communicating with the server and packaging information. TCP i believe requires more communication where UDP is more like fire and forget though there's more to it than that.

QuebraRegra

Grimlok_S wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

interesting... consider also that ESO is TCP based rathe than UDP, and all the additional ACKs, etc.

I would like to know more about what this means

this is really something we should all be talking about...

This person explains it VERY well
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/256376/eso-performance-and-lag-technical-discussion

etchedpixels

Grimlok_S wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

interesting... consider also that ESO is TCP based rathe than UDP, and all the additional ACKs, etc.

I would like to know more about what this means

TCP delivers data across the internet reliably and so that the sender and receiver get the same data in the same order, but possibly with delays when recovering from data loss. UDP is more like a postcard - it'll probably turn up, and two of them could turn up out of order.

Most games that use UDP actually then put a layer of error checking, recovery and the like on it and usually end up re-implementing TCP badly.

Somewhat of a side discussion though - the real problerm is that skills don't always fire when they should and the game skill/attack/block usage is ridiculously sensitive to this. People are spamming the skill button 3 times because that's how you make the game work.

QuebraRegra

Rungar wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

QuebraRegra wrote: »

interesting... consider also that ESO is TCP based rathe than UDP, and all the additional ACKs, etc.

I would like to know more about what this means

ITs two different ways of communicating with the server and packaging information. TCP i believe requires more communication where UDP is more like fire and forget though there's more to it than that.

We use UDP at work for some real time critical flows, which is kinda silly and I took to calling it "unreliable Datagram Protocol", where as, TCP is socket based connection oriented and requires acknowledge ments between the the clinet/server... with more overhead and processing).

There was some thought that perhaps TCP would be more secure and prevent cheating? Not really, if someone is clever. UDP can use RTP sequencing to add some 'reliability' at the application layer. We use RTP and 'command" echos, as an app layer acknowledgement system.

IMHO, for PVE, there's no reason the software should not be changed to UDP to vastly improve performance... Also more client side calculations for non-critical operations.

F... then need to hire some network engineers/software developers to rework the whole engine frankly at this point.

Freakin_Hytte

I completely agree with you how light attacks should be used to procc only doing a small amount of damage. It's ridiculous how much light attacks do, they could easily nerf light attacks by 30% in my mind

Rungar

sooner or later they will run out of things to test and have to test light attacks impact on server load.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Some people will use any excuse possible to attack weaving, which is frankly what makes combat in this game good because it is based on skill.

Is that addon over the line? Probably. My guess is that it's days are numbered, but who knows. Just because someone found a way to exploit the system, doesnt mean it should be scrapped. Weaving threads always come down to a group of people that refuse to put the effort in to master the combat system that is ESO. Enough already. If you want a game that doesnt require skill, there are plenty available.

GrumpyDuckling

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Some people will use any excuse possible to attack weaving, which is frankly what makes combat in this game good because it is based on skill.

Is that addon over the line? Probably. My guess is that it's days are numbered, but who knows. Just because someone found a way to exploit the system, doesnt mean it should be scrapped. Weaving threads always come down to a group of people that refuse to put the effort in to master the combat system that is ESO. Enough already. If you want a game that doesnt require skill, there are plenty available.

I disagree -- weaving in ESO doesn't make me feel "skilled." I feel "skilled" when I go into content blind and react/adapt in real time to an unexpected attack from an enemy, or piece together how to do a combat mechanic on the fly while fighting and surviving against an enemy.

Weaving is just about building muscle memory and it has us all reacting to the same boring button pattern -- that doesn't feel like "skill" to me, but rather robotic and uninteresting requirements that make me yawn.

Unknown_Redemption

The gaming skill isnt muscle memory though, if it worked smoothly buttons wouldnt need to be spammed 3x in quick succession. This isnt an attack on weaving, its showing how the server isnt able to queue commands correctly and has resulted in people putting even more strain on it.

katorga

While you guys are investigating how to relieve server strain, you may want to consider reworking LAs again.

If the server needs to reduce player keystrokes to relieve server strain, they need to just shut down.

Rungar wrote: »

sooner or later they will run out of things to test and have to test light attacks impact on server load.

If the server can't handle light attacks then it can't handle players moving around. Maybe add cooldowns to movement every 1m.

This is as basic as it gets guys. If they can't handle processing keystrokes....

andy_s

The addon actually helps servers' performance, because it blocks skill buttons on the client side only, e.g. you won't accidentally cast your fire rune twice or spam jabs too much without light attacks inbetween.

Ryuvain

Anyone else notice light attack animations being saved up and then spasming them out all at once? It's really a problem with a lot of weaving. Seems to also negate other skill animations sometimes.

Rungar

katorga wrote: »

While you guys are investigating how to relieve server strain, you may want to consider reworking LAs again.

If the server needs to reduce player keystrokes to relieve server strain, they need to just shut down.

Rungar wrote: »

sooner or later they will run out of things to test and have to test light attacks impact on server load.

If the server can't handle light attacks then it can't handle players moving around. Maybe add cooldowns to movement every 1m.

This is as basic as it gets guys. If they can't handle processing keystrokes....

Theres a lot more to a light attack than meets the eye. Light attacks can trigger procs, enchants and conditions, can crit and reduce the cycle for all other skills through the animation cancelling aspect.

so playing the game with light attacks in-between the gcd as opposed to on the gcd could literally double to triple server load.

The more people that L2P the more the server is crippled, the more impact on everyone's game is felt.

Certainly its worth a test?

Jaimeh

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Weaving is just about building muscle memory and it has us all reacting to the same boring button pattern -- that doesn't feel like "skill" to me, but rather robotic and uninteresting requirements that make me yawn.

While doing mechanics, which is not something as straightforward as you make it to be. Plus, it's almost always what seperates good DDs from lower damage DDs, and it does come down to skill and speed. End game combat in ESO is a lot of things, but it's not yawn-inducing.

Rungar

why do I get the feeling this addon has been around a long time.

this is just more proof of the shoddiness of the whole weaving thing. You can have crews going around with mods like this in secret and zos balancing the game based on their results.

whether its things like this, the fancy keyboards or mice or people with scripts or whatever.

Its all the same. Bad design.

GrumpyDuckling

Jaimeh wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Weaving is just about building muscle memory and it has us all reacting to the same boring button pattern -- that doesn't feel like "skill" to me, but rather robotic and uninteresting requirements that make me yawn.

While doing mechanics, which is not something as straightforward as you make it to be. Plus, it's almost always what seperates good DDs from lower damage DDs, and it does come down to skill and speed. End game combat in ESO is a lot of things, but it's not yawn-inducing.

Building muscle memory for a rotation is absolutely yawn-inducing.