(PVP) The problem of combat mechanics in mana builds.

HankTwo

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

Mate, I'm not exclusively playing stam, I have more mag characters than stam and even play a hybrid from time to time. You sound a bit like you almost exclusively play mag (correct me if I'm wrong). If thats the case that very much limits your perception about balance. Imo mag is very strong rn, especially in high mmr bgs, but you can also make strong mag builds for open world cyro.

For stam sustain without sacrificing all that much you have multiple options (and no, you definitely dont need 2k stam regen on mag builds)
- sets like eternal vigor (heavy) or amber plasm (light)
- heavy armor passives
- tri pots (especially on malacath builds)
- some races have extra stam sustain
- some classes have good stam sustain as well

For max stat its also not that hard:
- Tri stat glyphs everywhere. Seriously do it. Not only does it give you mag and stam but also health which is very useful
- Triune jewelry (same as above)
- Bewitched sugar skulls, overall an amazing top tier food, I use it on most of my characters, both on mag and stam
- Dunmer race (or Khajiit but its more niche)
- Undaunted passives (play 5/1/1)

And to preserve stam:
- Get a mag mobility option. Some classes have very nice tools in this regard, but race against time and mistform are available to everyone. Instead of dodge rolling after getting immobilized/snared use these tools instead

Personally, I like that stam and mag builds have this clear distinction that mag uses their off stat for break free, dodge, sprint and block, while stam uses their off stat mostly for utility skills. It creates a clear distinction between the two playstyles, and more streamlining is definitely not what this game needs.

everything that you named so is used by me, except equipment. Stamina classes have enough simple enchantments and food to get 3000 recovery. and using such sets will take away your damage. Stamina assemblies can completely dispense with protection and just somersault. And tell me what will happen to you when you run out of energy and stunned? I guess you have about 1000 stamina recovery even with this equipment

If you have a big stam pool from bewitched suger skulls and full tri stat enchants, are in heavy armor and use tri stat pots I honestly dont know how you run out of stamina that easily. Maybe you dodge roll too much? If so try well fitted. And you don't loose too much damage with a set like eternal vigor, since the mag sustain you get from this set lets you build for more spell damage elsewhere. After all, a lot of stam builds use that set as well.

Another way of indirectly strengthening your stam sustain would be to learn how to avoid stuns better. Depending on your class and build style there are different options. Sorc for example can avoid a lot via ball of lighting, while mag DK for example synergizes well with snb to block the most dangerous attacks.

you are talking about something completely different and did not answer the question, the stamina pool is not a solution if you are focused

By being focused do you mean a single player or multiple? Because if multiple good players focus you down you will either run out of resources after some struggle or simply get mowed down by damage you cant outheal. The same applies to stam builds, thats just the nature of the game.

Otherwise I'm sorry for misunderstanding you I guess? Just explain in detail what you actually mean then. Maybe there is some unnecessary stamina drain in your playstyle (you mentioned using stamina skills on a mag toon, maybe thats where your issues are coming from?).

I mean, when a stamina build uses a time cooldown stun on you, you will soon sit down and you don't have enough stamina regeneration to free yourself.It's not enough to just have a large pool without regeneration

Yes, that last sentence 100% correct and it's why I mentioned multiple sources of stam sustain separately from sources of max stam. Max stat is just a buffer, what keeps you alive in prolonged fights is stam sustain. Generally speaking, a good rule of thumb to gauge if you have enough stam sustain on a mag build (at least on mag builds that cant easily disengage/avoid stuns) is if you are able to indefinitely break free when stunned on cooldown.

Base break free cost is 5.4k, with a cc cooldown of 7 seconds that leads to a stam drain of up to 771 stam per second. How you reach a number close to this is up to you, as explained there are multiple ways of obtaining decent stam sustain, with tri stat potions being the most ubiquitously available one (also keep in mind that race, class and armor passives might already provide a good chunk of sustain). But don't be mistaken, stam builds also need to sacrifice other stats for the sustain to be able to break free/dodge/block/sprint on top of their regular ability cost.

fred4

Joy_Division wrote: »

• Generally more bar space freedom because ZOS took away the multifunctionality of many magicka skills. It would take my templar 3 bar slots to get what Rally gives stam specs.
• dodge is usually a better means of defense than block or shield.

These things are kind of related. Not having an efficient Major Sorcery skill results in pressure on magicka builds to use Major Sorcery potions, which don't include stamina.

Speaking specifically about nightblades, magblade lacks everything stamblade gets from Rally altogether. It has no way to pre-buff Major Sorcery, which is kind of important for the class. Choose a potion and you forgo stam sustain from potions. Magblade also has no burst heal and no heal that does not uncloak you. This adds up and even that last part is really important. A stamblade can briefly disappear via cloak, heal up and counterattack. Not even that, they can burst heal in people's face. As a magblade I have Healing Ward or Rapid Regen. Those are not instant heals that take me out of execute range and the Healing Ward shield really isn't anything to write home about anymore. I often find that I need to Cloak or Shade to safety, before I can heal, and then it's a 4 second heal. As I'm writing this I'm starting to realise just how ridiculous this is.

fred4

HankTwo wrote: »

But don't be mistaken, stam builds also need to sacrifice other stats for the sustain to be able to break free/dodge/block/sprint on top of their regular ability cost.

On the other hand:

(1) I haven't looked lately, so you can correct me if I'm wrong: ZOS originally accounted for this by making stamina skills cheaper than magicka ones, did they not?

(2) Being on the attack and being on the defense is cyclical. To a certain degree you do one or the other. What I'm getting at is that, when you get pushed into defense, say by an additional foe arriving, you statistically tend to have more remaining stamina and higher stam regen available on a stamina character than a magicka character ever has. You are then free to spend that entirely on defense. Granted this includes heals and such, but as we've established, dodge rolls alone are extremely powerful. It's the fact that you can use two or three of those without fear of not being able to break free that feels very powerful in my experience.

(3) What does Rally cost? Vigor? You're not telling me someone uses Soothing Spores or some other such expensive nonsense, are you? Now look at the costs of magicka heals. Honor the Dead is perhaps not a good example as it gives you magicka back. Shields and Cloak, though. Those are expensive skills.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

It's also worth mentioning that stam pvp builds have much higher weapon damage than magicka does spell damage, and therefore benefit more from their heals (the design choice to make healing scale off of damage potential is also baffling). Vigor alone ticks for a very high amount for a cheap cost and can be accessed by all classes. The difference between mag and stam right now in pvp is hilariously lopsided. And yes, I'm aware there are talented mag players still, and that mag sorc can still usually compete. Overall though, it's my opinion that mag is in a sorry state as far as competition is concerned.

Firstmep

fred4 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

An experienced magicka player using Sugar Skulls should not run out of stamina.

I wonder would that player specifically play an Altmer though (stam return passive) or perhaps an Argonian (potion passive). I play Bretons. My bad.

My magplar is breton, 0 Stam issues ever, not using év or any stam sustain sets.
Granted it's in heavy armor, but it's not very difficult to land a heavy attack from s/b or go into mist form for a few seconds.
My stamplar runs EV and tripots for extra mag sustain to able to purge more often(and I have no other mag skill on it atm).

Anyway, in mag classes I don't have to use my Stam for anything other than core combat skills, so I don't see how it's an issue.
Well maybe on light armor, but who even plays light in the current meta.
Also next patch light armor gets a massive cost reduction for break free, which is really good imo, it won't make me play it still, cuz it's too squishy, but that's a different discussion.

Firstmep

fred4 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

But don't be mistaken, stam builds also need to sacrifice other stats for the sustain to be able to break free/dodge/block/sprint on top of their regular ability cost.

On the other hand:

(1) I haven't looked lately, so you can correct me if I'm wrong: ZOS originally accounted for this by making stamina skills cheaper than magicka ones, did they not?

(2) Being on the attack and being on the defense is cyclical. To a certain degree you do one or the other. What I'm getting at is that, when you get pushed into defense, say by an additional foe arriving, you statistically tend to have more remaining stamina and higher stam regen available on a stamina character than a magicka character ever has. You are then free to spend that entirely on defense. Granted this includes heals and such, but as we've established, dodge rolls alone are extremely powerful. It's the fact that you can use two or three of those without fear of not being able to break free that feels very powerful in my experience.

(3) What does Rally cost? Vigor? You're not telling me someone uses Soothing Spores or some other such expensive nonsense, are you? Now look at the costs of magicka heals. Honor the Dead is perhaps not a good example as it gives you magicka back. Shields and Cloak, though. Those are expensive skills.

My stamplar sits at around 22k Stam while my magplar is at about 15k (no cp both) and I have no Stam sustain issues on either.
Building for max Stam on Stam toons is usually not that great, since wpd scales better, or well right now procsets take the cake over any Stat anyway.
You can build for really high spell damage nowadays, also a lot of current meta Stam builds don't even break 3k wpd due to procsets.
Rally is indeed very powerful, and I have been asking for a better universal major sorcery self buff for a while, changing the healing morph of entropy into a proper self buff would be a great way towards that.
Using break free+roll dodge + skill will usually drain more of your stamina on a Stam toon, due the skills cost.
They have already reduced the gap between mag and stam ability costs once, the fact still remains you use your main stat on stamina to use skills and core combat skills.
Also just see how many mag players choose to use their Magicka to block, that should be very telling about why it's good to use your off resource for core defenses.

SshadowSscale

10k max mag is enough for Stambuilds...... stamblades crying in the corner because cloak failed 3 times and they are out of mag lol

Merllow

Firstmep wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

But don't be mistaken, stam builds also need to sacrifice other stats for the sustain to be able to break free/dodge/block/sprint on top of their regular ability cost.

On the other hand:

(1) I haven't looked lately, so you can correct me if I'm wrong: ZOS originally accounted for this by making stamina skills cheaper than magicka ones, did they not?

(2) Being on the attack and being on the defense is cyclical. To a certain degree you do one or the other. What I'm getting at is that, when you get pushed into defense, say by an additional foe arriving, you statistically tend to have more remaining stamina and higher stam regen available on a stamina character than a magicka character ever has. You are then free to spend that entirely on defense. Granted this includes heals and such, but as we've established, dodge rolls alone are extremely powerful. It's the fact that you can use two or three of those without fear of not being able to break free that feels very powerful in my experience.

(3) What does Rally cost? Vigor? You're not telling me someone uses Soothing Spores or some other such expensive nonsense, are you? Now look at the costs of magicka heals. Honor the Dead is perhaps not a good example as it gives you magicka back. Shields and Cloak, though. Those are expensive skills.

My stamplar sits at around 22k Stam while my magplar is at about 15k (no cp both) and I have no Stam sustain issues on either.
Building for max Stam on Stam toons is usually not that great, since wpd scales better, or well right now procsets take the cake over any Stat anyway.
You can build for really high spell damage nowadays, also a lot of current meta Stam builds don't even break 3k wpd due to procsets.
Rally is indeed very powerful, and I have been asking for a better universal major sorcery self buff for a while, changing the healing morph of entropy into a proper self buff would be a great way towards that.
Using break free+roll dodge + skill will usually drain more of your stamina on a Stam toon, due the skills cost.
They have already reduced the gap between mag and stam ability costs once, the fact still remains you use your main stat on stamina to use skills and core combat skills.
Also just see how many mag players choose to use their Magicka to block, that should be very telling about why it's good to use your off resource for core defenses.

it's not about protection. shields do not protect against control effects. your stamina won't be enough against build stamina. Stamina assemblies can really choose the path of protection if they start to focus strongly and their regeneration is enough, because it is about 3000 and in addition, alchemical potions are used to regenerate stamina + 40%. If magic assemblies have at least 30k stamina, they will not have enough regeneration

Merllow

Firstmep wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

But don't be mistaken, stam builds also need to sacrifice other stats for the sustain to be able to break free/dodge/block/sprint on top of their regular ability cost.

On the other hand:

(1) I haven't looked lately, so you can correct me if I'm wrong: ZOS originally accounted for this by making stamina skills cheaper than magicka ones, did they not?

(2) Being on the attack and being on the defense is cyclical. To a certain degree you do one or the other. What I'm getting at is that, when you get pushed into defense, say by an additional foe arriving, you statistically tend to have more remaining stamina and higher stam regen available on a stamina character than a magicka character ever has. You are then free to spend that entirely on defense. Granted this includes heals and such, but as we've established, dodge rolls alone are extremely powerful. It's the fact that you can use two or three of those without fear of not being able to break free that feels very powerful in my experience.

(3) What does Rally cost? Vigor? You're not telling me someone uses Soothing Spores or some other such expensive nonsense, are you? Now look at the costs of magicka heals. Honor the Dead is perhaps not a good example as it gives you magicka back. Shields and Cloak, though. Those are expensive skills.

My stamplar sits at around 22k Stam while my magplar is at about 15k (no cp both) and I have no Stam sustain issues on either.
Building for max Stam on Stam toons is usually not that great, since wpd scales better, or well right now procsets take the cake over any Stat anyway.
You can build for really high spell damage nowadays, also a lot of current meta Stam builds don't even break 3k wpd due to procsets.
Rally is indeed very powerful, and I have been asking for a better universal major sorcery self buff for a while, changing the healing morph of entropy into a proper self buff would be a great way towards that.
Using break free+roll dodge + skill will usually drain more of your stamina on a Stam toon, due the skills cost.
They have already reduced the gap between mag and stam ability costs once, the fact still remains you use your main stat on stamina to use skills and core combat skills.
Also just see how many mag players choose to use their Magicka to block, that should be very telling about why it's good to use your off resource for core defenses.

understand if you have about 3000-4000 regeneration you have enough pool and 20k stamina

Merllow

Firstmep wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

An experienced magicka player using Sugar Skulls should not run out of stamina.

I wonder would that player specifically play an Altmer though (stam return passive) or perhaps an Argonian (potion passive). I play Bretons. My bad.

My magplar is breton, 0 Stam issues ever, not using év or any stam sustain sets.
Granted it's in heavy armor, but it's not very difficult to land a heavy attack from s/b or go into mist form for a few seconds.
My stamplar runs EV and tripots for extra mag sustain to able to purge more often(and I have no other mag skill on it atm).

Anyway, in mag classes I don't have to use my Stam for anything other than core combat skills, so I don't see how it's an issue.
Well maybe on light armor, but who even plays light in the current meta.
Also next patch light armor gets a massive cost reduction for break free, which is really good imo, it won't make me play it still, cuz it's too squishy, but that's a different discussion.

you just use a meta build with alessian defense and how, as soon as they start attacking you, you enter to the mystform. this is not an argument in favor of sufficient stamina. I think soon they will turn off the restoration of health in the mystform and then the conversation will be different

Merllow

fred4 wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

But don't be mistaken, stam builds also need to sacrifice other stats for the sustain to be able to break free/dodge/block/sprint on top of their regular ability cost.

On the other hand:

(1) I haven't looked lately, so you can correct me if I'm wrong: ZOS originally accounted for this by making stamina skills cheaper than magicka ones, did they not?

(2) Being on the attack and being on the defense is cyclical. To a certain degree you do one or the other. What I'm getting at is that, when you get pushed into defense, say by an additional foe arriving, you statistically tend to have more remaining stamina and higher stam regen available on a stamina character than a magicka character ever has. You are then free to spend that entirely on defense. Granted this includes heals and such, but as we've established, dodge rolls alone are extremely powerful. It's the fact that you can use two or three of those without fear of not being able to break free that feels very powerful in my experience.

(3) What does Rally cost? Vigor? You're not telling me someone uses Soothing Spores or some other such expensive nonsense, are you? Now look at the costs of magicka heals. Honor the Dead is perhaps not a good example as it gives you magicka back. Shields and Cloak, though. Those are expensive skills.

Stamina classes have:
1) reduced cost of abilities;
2) increased indicator of damage on weapons, which also increases healing;
3) food to increase stamina recovery; (2 stats)
4) Mundus stone to increase stamina recovery.

Therefore, in critical situations, there is no problem for these guys to free themselves once again and make a rolldodge. Yes you are right

Merllow

SshadowSscale wrote: »

10k max mag is enough for Stambuilds...... stamblades crying in the corner because cloak failed 3 times and they are out of mag lol

you only need this pool for invisibility, and these three times are enough for NB. You have a Rolldodge in case of trouble.if you had these 10k magic used for breakfree and rolldodge, you would understand magic classes

Firstmep

Merllow wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

10k max mag is enough for Stambuilds...... stamblades crying in the corner because cloak failed 3 times and they are out of mag lol

you only need this pool for invisibility, and these three times are enough for NB. You have a Rolldodge in case of trouble.if you had these 10k magic used for breakfree and rolldodge, you would understand magic classes

Well if you run around with 10k Stam and you run out you have no one to blame but yourself mate..

fred4

Firstmep wrote: »

My magplar is breton, 0 Stam issues ever, not using év or any stam sustain sets.
Granted it's in heavy armor, but it's not very difficult to land a heavy attack from s/b or go into mist form for a few seconds.

You claim there are zero sustain issues, then go on to describe how you (were forced to) wear heavy armor, use a stamina weapon and became a vampire, which also gives you more regen. Ooopsies.

I can understand heavy armor and 1H+S to a degree, but being forced into vamp on magplar in particular, that was always a bridge too far for me. I therefore write from the perspective of a non-vampire who merely uses RAT.

I also find getting stam back from a heavy attack on a magicka character self-defeating at times. I get CCd right around the same time and back to zero. People are so fast and hard to hit these days, I really hate even partially relying on heavies for stam sustain. As a stamina character I can fit those in naturally into a my rotation without worrying too much about the timing of the next hard CC. As a magicka charcter it is about life and death.

My stamplar runs EV and tripots for extra mag sustain to able to purge more often(and I have no other mag skill on it atm).

I would claim that that is also a choice. Granted stamplar is IMO bad in the defense department, but I've never felt that Ritual is the essential skill most claim it is. I find it too situational for that, though I am probably alone here.

Well maybe on light armor, but who even plays light in the current meta.

I do. Losing the crit bonus and the pen has always felt really bad to me, especially on this class. I also don't like how heavy armor plays. I find the sustain from the Constitution passive oddly inconsistent. I find your attack rotation becomes more complicated with Degeneration and Elemental Drain almost mandatory to claw back damage. I suppose some of that is offset by Malacath and proc sets these days.

Also next patch light armor gets a massive cost reduction for break free, which is really good imo,

I agree and we definitely have to wait for how next patch shakes out.

it won't make me play it still, cuz it's too squishy, but that's a different discussion.

Ah, but here's the rub. If you go all out in stam sustain, then light armor isn't that squishy. In fact, for me subjectively, it feels better than heavy ... albeit I don't use Mist.

If it wasn't obvious already, there are of course many solutions to this problem. I also have to acknowledge my own bias towards using movement-based and damage-avoiding playstyles. On the other hand, I don't think it's controverial to say stamina is stronger than magicka, with only sorc being the one clear outlier. From my experience the greater dodge roll sustain of stamina classes contributes to that. Again, this is not to say I want magicka classes to play the same way as stamina, but I don't think the OP is wrong pointing to stamina sustain as a main reason for the imbalance.

fred4

Firstmep wrote: »

Also just see how many mag players choose to use their Magicka to block, that should be very telling about why it's good to use your off resource for core defenses.

I'll have to give you that one, though there are many reasons to prefer 1H+S over ice staff:

Better defense-focused passives for your off bar, e.g. the movement penalty reduction while blocking.

The combined penetration buffs from Pierce Armor, but especially the ultimate, Spell Wall.

The uselessness of ice staves as an attacking weapon. What I'm talking about is everyone's favorite build pattern, where you have a single attacking skill on the back bar, such as Elemental Drain or Degeneration, and where you light attack for the Berserker enchant, then cast that skill and bar swap as you approach the target from range. The problem - it's one of those insidious little things that makes all the difference - is that ice staff light attacks are slow. If you are more than about 10 meters away, the light attack only lands after the bar swap and the Berserker enchant doesn't get activated. This is what seals the deal and tilts me in favor of 1H+S over frost staff on magicka builds.

I think I would be inclined to experiment with magicka blocking, if frost staff was better overall. That said, the final reason I personally don't block with magicka is that I use Restoring Focus on magplar and the Bull Netch on warden. This means I have some sustain while either sprinting or blocking. I would give up sprint sustain, if I switched my sustain skill to magicka.

Firstmep

fred4 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

My magplar is breton, 0 Stam issues ever, not using év or any stam sustain sets.
Granted it's in heavy armor, but it's not very difficult to land a heavy attack from s/b or go into mist form for a few seconds.

You claim there are zero sustain issues, then go on to describe how you (were forced to) wear heavy armor, use a stamina weapon and became a vampire, which also gives you more regen. Ooopsies.

I can understand heavy armor and 1H+S to a degree, but being forced into vamp on magplar in particular, that was always a bridge too far for me. I therefore write from the perspective of a non-vampire who merely uses RAT.

I also find getting stam back from a heavy attack on a magicka character self-defeating at times. I get CCd right around the same time and back to zero. People are so fast and hard to hit these days, I really hate even partially relying on heavies for stam sustain. As a stamina character I can fit those in naturally into a my rotation without worrying too much about the timing of the next hard CC. As a magicka charcter it is about life and death.

My stamplar runs EV and tripots for extra mag sustain to able to purge more often(and I have no other mag skill on it atm).

I would claim that that is also a choice. Granted stamplar is IMO bad in the defense department, but I've never felt that Ritual is the essential skill most claim it is. I find it too situational for that, though I am probably alone here.

Well maybe on light armor, but who even plays light in the current meta.

I do. Losing the crit bonus and the pen has always felt really bad to me, especially on this class. I also don't like how heavy armor plays. I find the sustain from the Constitution passive oddly inconsistent. I find your attack rotation becomes more complicated with Degeneration and Elemental Drain almost mandatory to claw back damage. I suppose some of that is offset by Malacath and proc sets these days.

Also next patch light armor gets a massive cost reduction for break free, which is really good imo,

I agree and we definitely have to wait for how next patch shakes out.

it won't make me play it still, cuz it's too squishy, but that's a different discussion.

Ah, but here's the rub. If you go all out in stam sustain, then light armor isn't that squishy. In fact, for me subjectively, it feels better than heavy ... albeit I don't use Mist.

If it wasn't obvious already, there are of course many solutions to this problem. I also have to acknowledge my own bias towards using movement-based and damage-avoiding playstyles. On the other hand, I don't think it's controverial to say stamina is stronger than magicka, with only sorc being the one clear outlier. From my experience the greater dodge roll sustain of stamina classes contributes to that. Again, this is not to say I want magicka classes to play the same way as stamina, but I don't think the OP is wrong pointing to stamina sustain as a main reason for the imbalance.

Few things, vamp doesn't give you extra sustain anymore, it actually makes your skills not expensive now.
Heavy armor is not really for sustain only, it's mainly cuz light armor has no mitigation m, and damage shields aren't strong enough on something like a magplar, especially if you run full procs, which I do.
I never said light armor ws in a good spot, but Magicka can be played quite comfortably in heavy, and actually most meta Stam builds are also heavy, for the very same reasons.
Next patch the crit bonus of light armor is so little that you can have sub 20% crit chance while wearing 5 pieces, hardly worth and you can then run 2 light to get 1800 pen and still have 5 heavy pieces.
On classes like magplar that have little to no defensive mobility, and your main spammable is a channeled ability, you have to be able to soak up hits.
Just look at puncturing sweeps, in heavy you take less dmg, and you get more % healing out of it, and frankly you don't lose any dmg over light, unless you wanna run a really squishy build.
In light to get a similar level of tankiness that heavy gets naturally you would have to run at least one but really two defensive sets, and then your damage is nowhere near as great.
And yes mist form is incredibly busted rn, and I don't feel one bit bad about using it, when 40k hp stamdens can fart out 20k burst combos with procs.

My main point is that Magicka as a whole isn't in such a bad shape as some ppl here make it out to be, in fact in organized large groups they're still king over Stam.
If you run a squishy light armor build, and don't account for its weaknesses, then yes you will feel weak in the situations where it becomes apparent.

fred4

Merllow wrote: »

and their regeneration is enough, because it is about 3000 and in addition, alchemical potions are used to regenerate stamina + 40%.

I'm with you, but IMO you have to stop with the hyperbole. Few builds have 3K stam regen before potions and those that do are seriously compromising other factors, such as their damage or tankiness.

Athan1

Stamina builda do everything that magicka builds do, cheaper and stronger. And they can use their small magicka pool to cast the few magicka exclusive utility spells anyway. There's basically no reason to play magicka except for actually having class skills.

fred4

@Firstmep, well, I am not a templar main. I play it rarely these days and I have only played stat-based builds on it. I agree that Sweeps being a channel is a major downside to the class. For a long time I believed that some tankiness and no shields were the way to go. Not being afraid of letting your health run a bit low, because it happened slowly enough, before recovering with Honor the Dead, if neded. That was the way I thought you played templar, except it didn't feel great in recent patches.

I put on Eternal Vigor, Amber Plasm, Sugar Skulls and Restoring Focus in exasperation one day, taking it into CP open world first. This was a light armor build and, to my surprise, it worked well. The whole "stay in your house" of yore was never my thing. I play melee classes to weave in and out of combat, be it stamsorc, stamblade or ... magplar. Dodge rolling and sprinting back towards your home team when out of position just felt sooo defensively sound.

I subsequently duelled my friend, who played magsorc at the time. I tried heavy armor. It was crap, compared to this build. When a mag sorc hammers you from range, dodge rolls are just too good. Cleanses too, obviously, but I'm also talking things like Overload. Not worrying about stamina, breaking free and immediately gap closing and hammering the sorc, knowing you could dodge roll the next big attack or roll towards LoS, that felt tremendously freeing. It's the playstyle for me, that's for sure. I will probably love the light armor changes next patch.

Firstmep

fred4 wrote: »

@Firstmep, well, I am not a templar main. I play it rarely these days and I have only played stat-based builds on it. I agree that Sweeps being a channel is a major downside to the class. For a long time I believed that some tankiness and no shields were the way to go. Not being afraid of letting your health run a bit low, because it happened slowly enough, before recovering with Honor the Dead, if neded. That was the way I thought you played templar, except it didn't feel great in recent patches.

I put on Eternal Vigor, Amber Plasm, Sugar Skulls and Restoring Focus in exasperation one day, taking it into CP open world first. This was a light armor build and, to my surprise, it worked well. The whole "stay in your house" of yore was never my thing. I play melee classes to weave in and out of combat, be it stamsorc, stamblade or ... magplar. Dodge rolling and sprinting back towards your home team when out of position just felt sooo defensively sound.

I subsequently duelled my friend, who played magsorc at the time. I tried heavy armor. It was crap, compared to this build. When a mag sorc hammers you from range, dodge rolls are just too good. Cleanses too, obviously, but I'm also talking things like Overload. Not worrying about stamina, breaking free and immediately gap closing and hammering the sorc, knowing you could dodge roll the next big attack or roll towards LoS, that felt tremendously freeing. It's the playstyle for me, that's for sure. I will probably love the light armor changes next patch.

A lot of people don't really know how to get out as much or more damage from heavy armor, than they can from light for example.
Maybe you don't run into these situations a lot, but when you get multiple ppl gapclosing into you, hammering away at you with high dmg, light armor really doesn't do much.
You're not going to disengage from these ppl unless they let you, sprinting away from them is usually not a viable escape, this is where mist form comes in handy.
Heavy armor just synergies with the current proc meta far to well, especially with malacath negating the loss of crit so well and boosting your proc dmg by an insane amount.

fred4

Firstmep wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

@Firstmep, well, I am not a templar main. I play it rarely these days and I have only played stat-based builds on it. I agree that Sweeps being a channel is a major downside to the class. For a long time I believed that some tankiness and no shields were the way to go. Not being afraid of letting your health run a bit low, because it happened slowly enough, before recovering with Honor the Dead, if neded. That was the way I thought you played templar, except it didn't feel great in recent patches.

I put on Eternal Vigor, Amber Plasm, Sugar Skulls and Restoring Focus in exasperation one day, taking it into CP open world first. This was a light armor build and, to my surprise, it worked well. The whole "stay in your house" of yore was never my thing. I play melee classes to weave in and out of combat, be it stamsorc, stamblade or ... magplar. Dodge rolling and sprinting back towards your home team when out of position just felt sooo defensively sound.

I subsequently duelled my friend, who played magsorc at the time. I tried heavy armor. It was crap, compared to this build. When a mag sorc hammers you from range, dodge rolls are just too good. Cleanses too, obviously, but I'm also talking things like Overload. Not worrying about stamina, breaking free and immediately gap closing and hammering the sorc, knowing you could dodge roll the next big attack or roll towards LoS, that felt tremendously freeing. It's the playstyle for me, that's for sure. I will probably love the light armor changes next patch.

A lot of people don't really know how to get out as much or more damage from heavy armor, than they can from light for example.
Maybe you don't run into these situations a lot, but when you get multiple ppl gapclosing into you, hammering away at you with high dmg, light armor really doesn't do much.
You're not going to disengage from these ppl unless they let you, sprinting away from them is usually not a viable escape, this is where mist form comes in handy.
Heavy armor just synergies with the current proc meta far to well, especially with malacath negating the loss of crit so well and boosting your proc dmg by an insane amount.

Well, this is all true, not disagreeing, but now we're veering into what works in solo play specifically. I agree that sprintiog / dodge rolling alone is insufficient. You already need to be near a good LoS opportunity or you need Mist / Streak / Shadow Image / Cloak ...

Merllow

Well, in the end what we came to. Magic builds are very good. However, in 90% of PVP, build stamina is played, and many have changed their main stat to stamina. If the magic class has gone, something is wrong, then he is looking for a respawn point, and the stamina assembly starts to do Rolldodge, and they will not leave him behind. On igade for stamina assemblies, if you see a mage, give him 3 stuns every 7 seconds and for 4 times he will sit quietly and wait until you finish him off. You will never see how the magic class kites a crowd of players, unless of course it abuses the Alessian defense + the Myst Form

exeeter702

So once upon a time, the design philosophy for eso shifted into stamina builds used magicka for utility spells, while having an abundannce of stamina for their general offensive purposes while being more afforded the use of the games universal defensive actions (roll dodge, block, break free & bash). And magicka builds were able to lean heavy into magicka pools for thier offensive and dfensive/utility spells while stamina was exclusively dedicated to the universal defensive actions, and they needed to be careful in managing stamina.

Over the years this has grossly mutated into the hodgepodge mess that currently exists, thanks to a multiple of different sets and skill line changes that been added.

Heres the thing though, and it's something that I fundamentally believe should be the case and to a certain extent it was like this (not entirely) in the past..... hard crowd control abilities need to be tied to the magicka pool for use full stop. What happens here is that magicka builds have the ability to pressure a targets stamina pool more often than a stamina build would. Stamina builds currently have so much more capability to get out of hard CCs without hitting thier sustain or ability to take offense that it often becomes a losing battle for magicka builds that arent able to, through raw force, overwhelm the stamina build to the point where their self heals arent enough and then it becomes rolly polly city. If there are stamina versions of hard CCs they should be far more expensive per cast than magicka counter parts.

Obviously injecting this into the current game as it exists now, would be terrible. But it makes sense with a game where the only inhibitor for ability use cadence is a single GCD and resource pools. If a magicka build cant break free, they are dead. If a stamina build cant break free, it's because thier sustain is terrible and they likely werent going to be able to pressure the magicka build enough.

fred4

Merllow wrote: »

Well, in the end what we came to. Magic builds are very good. However, in 90% of PVP, build stamina is played, and many have changed their main stat to stamina. If the magic class has gone, something is wrong, then he is looking for a respawn point, and the stamina assembly starts to do Rolldodge, and they will not leave him behind. On igade for stamina assemblies, if you see a mage, give him 3 stuns every 7 seconds and for 4 times he will sit quietly and wait until you finish him off. You will never see how the magic class kites a crowd of players, unless of course it abuses the Alessian defense + the Myst Form

Or Streak out of range, or Cloak, or Shadow Image, or Meditate, or uses Engine Guardian, Eternal Vigor, Amber Plasm, Bloodspawn (1x stam regen), heavy armor (Constitution passive), is a high elf (Spell Recharge passive), is an Argonian (potion passive), or uses Restoring Focus, Leeching Strikes, Bull Netch, 1H+S heavy attacks, and so on, and so on.

I agree that the gist of your original post is true, but it's not that bleak. If you die due to a lack of stamina on a magicka build, then you're running a bad build, you're inexperienced or you overextended. If you build and play properly then you don't die, but this affects how hard you can push and how conservatively you must play or how much your build diverted resources into stamina sustain, which you might have invested into damage.

soniku4ikblis

I have built for Stam on my Magplar. 20k Stam, 1500 regen. I can block and dodge just fine.

What I end up running out of is my Mag pool. It's at 30k. 1800 regen.

VS 1, I can't hit hard, I can't push well, I mostly end up tanking and playing defense and I can outlast quite a long time, while having average dps. I get stalemates consistently with any class.

The only classes I struggle with right now are a good Sorck or a Pet build Mag Sorc. Everyone else I stalemate with: cannot kill the Vamp-Mist regen DKs for anything. I leave those fights. Very pointless.

So, I went ahead and switched to more DPS. For 6 seconds I have: 20K Pen, 5500 Spell Damage, 4500 Jabs, 10.5K Sweep, 10K Jesus Beam. Lost some defense. 33000 on my backbar blocking with shield as opposed to near 50k before. I think I do like 26k on combo in total. Not enough to kill most people with at least 20k+ defense and more.

I can get a few kills versus decent players. Good players I still stalemate. Cannot kill a good Sorck or Pet Mag Sorc still.

And I have to kiss a rosary, pray to RNGesus, and hope my combo lands. Otherwise, I'm on my backfoot most of the time.


I just..... don't feel the design is supposed to make you feel this way. Stressed and living on a prayer. It's not fun, it's frustrating, it's rough. I just don't see other Stam classes struggling the way a Magplar would.

Finally, please just stand still so I can jab you. Otherwise, please make jabs into a something else. It's so easy to strafe it. lol

EDIT: I would kill for 40K mag pool. What is dee wey

Merllow

soniku4ikblis wrote: »

I have built for Stam on my Magplar. 20k Stam, 1500 regen. I can block and dodge just fine.

What I end up running out of is my Mag pool. It's at 30k. 1800 regen.

VS 1, I can't hit hard, I can't push well, I mostly end up tanking and playing defense and I can outlast quite a long time, while having average dps. I get stalemates consistently with any class.

The only classes I struggle with right now are a good Sorck or a Pet build Mag Sorc. Everyone else I stalemate with: cannot kill the Vamp-Mist regen DKs for anything. I leave those fights. Very pointless.

So, I went ahead and switched to more DPS. For 6 seconds I have: 20K Pen, 5500 Spell Damage, 4500 Jabs, 10.5K Sweep, 10K Jesus Beam. Lost some defense. 33000 on my backbar blocking with shield as opposed to near 50k before. I think I do like 26k on combo in total. Not enough to kill most people with at least 20k+ defense and more.

I can get a few kills versus decent players. Good players I still stalemate. Cannot kill a good Sorck or Pet Mag Sorc still.

And I have to kiss a rosary, pray to RNGesus, and hope my combo lands. Otherwise, I'm on my backfoot most of the time.


I just..... don't feel the design is supposed to make you feel this way. Stressed and living on a prayer. It's not fun, it's frustrating, it's rough. I just don't see other Stam classes struggling the way a Magplar would.

Finally, please just stand still so I can jab you. Otherwise, please make jabs into a something else. It's so easy to strafe it. lol

EDIT: I would kill for 40K mag pool. What is dee wey

the fact of the matter is that it's ridiculous to do such a regeneration of staimins on a magic assembly. And you end up with a terrible magic class and a terrible stamina class. it's a losing development choice

Merllow

fred4 wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

Well, in the end what we came to. Magic builds are very good. However, in 90% of PVP, build stamina is played, and many have changed their main stat to stamina. If the magic class has gone, something is wrong, then he is looking for a respawn point, and the stamina assembly starts to do Rolldodge, and they will not leave him behind. On igade for stamina assemblies, if you see a mage, give him 3 stuns every 7 seconds and for 4 times he will sit quietly and wait until you finish him off. You will never see how the magic class kites a crowd of players, unless of course it abuses the Alessian defense + the Myst Form

Or Streak out of range, or Cloak, or Shadow Image, or Meditate, or uses Engine Guardian, Eternal Vigor, Amber Plasm, Bloodspawn (1x stam regen), heavy armor (Constitution passive), is a high elf (Spell Recharge passive), is an Argonian (potion passive), or uses Restoring Focus, Leeching Strikes, Bull Netch, 1H+S heavy attacks, and so on, and so on.

I agree that the gist of your original post is true, but it's not that bleak. If you die due to a lack of stamina on a magicka build, then you're running a bad build, you're inexperienced or you overextended. If you build and play properly then you don't die, but this affects how hard you can push and how conservatively you must play or how much your build diverted resources into stamina sustain, which you might have invested into damage.

if you have a bad stamina regen, then it will end with you, I assure you, and when a stamina class fights with a getclouser, even a magpie's streak won't save you, because it is 15 meters and costs 33% more each streak, this means that 4 times you will cost 20,000 magic, I wonder how to restore it without regen. And the cost of a getclouser is about 2500 stamina at a time and it does not increase and the radis is 22 meters, which allows you to literally ride on your back at the mаggork

[Edit to remove bait]

soniku4ikblis

Merllow wrote: »

soniku4ikblis wrote: »

I have built for Stam on my Magplar. 20k Stam, 1500 regen. I can block and dodge just fine.

What I end up running out of is my Mag pool. It's at 30k. 1800 regen.

VS 1, I can't hit hard, I can't push well, I mostly end up tanking and playing defense and I can outlast quite a long time, while having average dps. I get stalemates consistently with any class.

The only classes I struggle with right now are a good Sorck or a Pet build Mag Sorc. Everyone else I stalemate with: cannot kill the Vamp-Mist regen DKs for anything. I leave those fights. Very pointless.

So, I went ahead and switched to more DPS. For 6 seconds I have: 20K Pen, 5500 Spell Damage, 4500 Jabs, 10.5K Sweep, 10K Jesus Beam. Lost some defense. 33000 on my backbar blocking with shield as opposed to near 50k before. I think I do like 26k on combo in total. Not enough to kill most people with at least 20k+ defense and more.

I can get a few kills versus decent players. Good players I still stalemate. Cannot kill a good Sorck or Pet Mag Sorc still.

And I have to kiss a rosary, pray to RNGesus, and hope my combo lands. Otherwise, I'm on my backfoot most of the time.


I just..... don't feel the design is supposed to make you feel this way. Stressed and living on a prayer. It's not fun, it's frustrating, it's rough. I just don't see other Stam classes struggling the way a Magplar would.

Finally, please just stand still so I can jab you. Otherwise, please make jabs into a something else. It's so easy to strafe it. lol

EDIT: I would kill for 40K mag pool. What is dee wey

the fact of the matter is that it's ridiculous to do such a regeneration of staimins on a magic assembly. And you end up with a terrible magic class and a terrible stamina class. it's a losing development choice

Agreed. That much I clearly stated using words.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Merllow wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I will concede that head to head, stamina is stronger than magic as a general rule in PVP. You are also on to the main issue that magic must consider their stamina pool in a build, and stamina can ignore their magic pool, or at least, not worry about it too much.

I will say, there are things you can do to close the gap. Tri-stat food is a strong choice. Sugar skulls are hard to beat as a food. I dont think that in it of itself puts you at a disadvantage. Play to your magic survival tools, heals and shields.

Run well-fitted gear. I was so hesitant to do it, but I made the change to seven well fitted on my mag sorc and it is night and day better than 7 impen, or anything else I have tried. Use your CP to invest heavily into break free. Consider monster set bonuses that give both stam and magic. I run two one piece bonuses that give approx 1k of each. Sets like Trainee can also be good to help fill out a build, especially if using mythic items. Tri Stat glyphs are best in slot use them on everything.

My mag sorc sits at 49k magic, 19k stam and 26k health. A stamina build is almost certainly going to have more weapon damage than I do spell damage, but those raw stats are harder to achieve on stamina. I can roll dodge with stacking costs 7 times in a row. It is rare that running out of stam (or any resource) is what kills me. I am at the speed cap and can burst from range, so there are advantages to magic. Overall, I think the balance favors stamina, but it's closer than people like to admit if I am being honest with myself.

the fact of the matter is that people make half mana, half stamina class. And imagine, this is not the first day I have been playing and I have almost the same set as yours. But you will always lose 1v1 to stamina. And you just need to come up with 1 thing, this is the breakfree for mana

I beat stamina classes 1v1 all the time. I don't disagree that head to head, stamina has an advantage. I just dont think the balance is nearly as disproportionate as you do. I have 18 max level characters. I generally chase the Meta. I still play magic in PVP all the time because it does have it's advantages over stam.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

fred4 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

An experienced magicka player using Sugar Skulls should not run out of stamina.

I wonder would that player specifically play an Altmer though (stam return passive) or perhaps an Argonian (potion passive). I play Bretons. My bad.

I play a breton sorc a decent amount of the time. I use sugar skulls, well fitted gear, and anywhere from 3-7 tri stat glyphs. Other than a bit of CP into stam recovery, I don't do anything to specifically boost my stam recovery. Running out of stamina is simply never what kills me. I cannot remember the last time I went to break free and did not have the resources. I am able to break free on cooldown essentially indefinitely.

Yes magic players need to give more thought to their stamina pool than stamina players do to their magic pool, but its just not that hard to give yourself the ability to always break free on cooldown.

The only time I have have stamina issues is when I am stealthing around a fight, decide to engage, and realize I have been sneaking for 10 minutes and therefore start the fight with low stamina. But that is 100% user error. LOL.