(PVP) The problem of combat mechanics in mana builds.

Merllow

Dear Developers and Community, I hope this title grabs your attention.
The essence of the problem is as follows.
Mana builds cannot compete with stamina builds. Because, mana classes cannot release from control or roll dodge, also a lot. Such assemblies are initially in a losing state. I'll give you some examples. Classes playing with mana cannot afford to give up stamina, unlike build stamina (for stamina, a base value of 10k mana will be enough).
For mana builds, 10k stamina will equal one release and one roll dodge, after which the control, which cannot be removed.
It turns out that mana classes must sacrifice mana regen and take food for 3 resources without increasing mana regeneration (such food simply does not exist). Again, unlike the stamina classes, which practically do not need mana, it is like a nice bonus and that's it. Stamina classes take food for stamina and stamina regeneration (where regeneration increases substantially). It turns out that mana classes cannot afford to develop in the same way in their direction. They have to do something like a hybrid differently after the stamina runs out, and this will happen very quickly (even with food for 3 resources), because mana regeneration is accelerated on the base, because this is the main resource and even with 15-20k stamina it does not is restored and any stamina class will beat you.Because the stamina of the class will always have enough resource to
Breakfree it with a regeneration of 2-3k, while the mana builds of the class will run out of it and there will not be enough stamina recovery. And that's not to mention blocking and a lot of RollDodge, which ignore 100% damage and naturally mana classes cannot allow this.
I suggest balancing so that magical assemblies can be use Breakfree for mana. And add small teleportations of 1.5 meters instead of Rolldodge. And it would be determined by the number of points in the characteristics.
Because it turns out that magic classes die after 2-3 stuns. And it turns out that the mana build needs the stamina, just like the stamina build.

WoppaBoem

So build better you have the stam to keep going. Plus loads of changes in this area on PTS right now to give magica very good control over their stam pool in light armor. Check out : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559360/pts-patch-notes-v6-3-0#latest

Merllow

WoppaBoem wrote: »

So build better you have the stam to keep going. Plus loads of changes in this area on PTS right now to give magica very good control over their stam pool in light armor. Check out : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/559360/pts-patch-notes-v6-3-0#latest

I'm familiar with the changes, but in the champion system, it's available to anyone. And an overall 21% reduction in the cost of Rolldodge does not provide any simplification. Because the current system has a 30% reduction. And reducing the cost of release by 35%, and in the current situation by 20-25%. You have not fully grasped the situation. And all this for 7 pieces of light armor with a strong loss of survival. While in 7 parts of medium armor, you can still completely devote all your enchant to stamina.

Merllow

Please understand what the injustice is. Stamina classes are maximally invested in stamina. They increase its total supply, increase its recovery as much as possible. They can take food to restore stamina, which is almost 500 points of recovery. And they absolutely don't need mana. Ultimately stamina grades have around 3500-4500 stamina recovery.
Magic classes cannot do the same with mana and increase its recovery rate to such an amount, because they cannot survive without stamina. And it turns out there is no bonus from food to restore mana, you have to take food to increase 3 basic characteristics. You have to spend champion points to restore stamina. You have to enchant jewelry to restore stamina. And this is still not enough. That's about 2500 mana regen and 1000 stamina regen. I think it's clear - the magic class will run out of resources faster.

WabanakiWarrior

[removed]

WoppaBoem

Merllow wrote: »

Please understand what the injustice is. Stamina classes are maximally invested in stamina. They increase its total supply, increase its recovery as much as possible. They can take food to restore stamina, which is almost 500 points of recovery. And they absolutely don't need mana. Ultimately stamina grades have around 3500-4500 stamina recovery.
Magic classes cannot do the same with mana and increase its recovery rate to such an amount, because they cannot survive without stamina. And it turns out there is no bonus from food to restore mana, you have to take food to increase 3 basic characteristics. You have to spend champion points to restore stamina. You have to enchant jewelry to restore stamina. And this is still not enough. That's about 2500 mana regen and 1000 stamina regen. I think it's clear - the magic class will run out of resources faster.

Stam does need also to attack and heal on top of movement. While mag can balance this between 2 resource pools.

I played a lot of mag and did encountered the same problem but this was way before stam recovery was more avaliable for mag classes and even when sprint costed like 1k per second. But you do point out one of the major differences and that is oke it can be an injustive for some them play stam it can be a blessing for others and mag they play. You need to find what works for you with whats in the game and not to try to make the game work for you. You only end up frustrated while that is not needed. Use the build calculator and work out what you need.

Merllow

WoppaBoem wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

Please understand what the injustice is. Stamina classes are maximally invested in stamina. They increase its total supply, increase its recovery as much as possible. They can take food to restore stamina, which is almost 500 points of recovery. And they absolutely don't need mana. Ultimately stamina grades have around 3500-4500 stamina recovery.
Magic classes cannot do the same with mana and increase its recovery rate to such an amount, because they cannot survive without stamina. And it turns out there is no bonus from food to restore mana, you have to take food to increase 3 basic characteristics. You have to spend champion points to restore stamina. You have to enchant jewelry to restore stamina. And this is still not enough. That's about 2500 mana regen and 1000 stamina regen. I think it's clear - the magic class will run out of resources faster.

Stam does need also to attack and heal on top of movement. While mag can balance this between 2 resource pools.

I played a lot of mag and did encountered the same problem but this was way before stam recovery was more avaliable for mag classes and even when sprint costed like 1k per second. But you do point out one of the major differences and that is oke it can be an injustive for some them play stam it can be a blessing for others and mag they play. You need to find what works for you with whats in the game and not to try to make the game work for you. You only end up frustrated while that is not needed. Use the build calculator and work out what you need.

I've been playing for a long time and I know how it is necessary to develop a character in order to somehow compete, but this does not mean that this is a fair distribution. Stamina builds can do rollDodge, although they have a lot of armor, build mana is usually in light armor and rollDodge are almost not available to them. And once it gets under control without stamina, the assembly cannot get out of it, the recovery is approximately 1000. Stamina builds with 4000 stamina regeneration can safely exit almost immediately. And you probably didn’t notice that in PVP, most of them run in stamina, everyone knows that stamina wins. If an experienced fighter in stamina is against you, he will never let you go, because he knows that if he stuns you, you will simply be stunned for 7 seconds and you will not have enough stamina recovery.

StarOfElyon

I still have not perfected this yet. For a magicka character, you must build for stamina, damage, and survivability. Stamina fighters get stamina and damage at once, so they only need to build for survivability. That part comes easy - just slap on heavy armor. Unless you play a sorc, you're going to be at a disadvantage. It's just the way it is.

Merllow

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I still have not perfected this yet. For a magicka character, you must build for stamina, damage, and survivability. Stamina fighters get stamina and damage at once, so they only need to build for survivability. That part comes easy - just slap on heavy armor. Unless you play a sorc, you're going to be at a disadvantage. It's just the way it is.

In your comment, just everything says that stamina wins, she does not need to think about anything other than stamina and health at all. And you still do not understand that it is more about the release system. even a sorcerer with a streak will not run away if he runs out of stamina. All stamina classes have an instant rendezvous ability with a radius of 20-30 meters. Stamina class with 0% stamina once in control should just wait 2 seconds for their stamina recovery. A mana class with 0% stamina, having come under control, must look for a place of revival.

Beardimus

Each has their advantage.

Build Tri Stat, food & pots..
Since the Impen changes run a few Well Fitted..

I hear your point, I used to say it. That Magika Builds are Tri stat hybrids in PvP. But learn to manage your resources and it's ok.

I'm Tri stat enchants, food and pots but my Magika is still very high (Necro & Bright) and damage strong in noCP

Firstmep

I know its a small thing, but in the Elder Scrolls universe, its called MAGICKA, not mana.

On topic tho: The break free cost reduction light armor gets next patch is actually pretty big, on the other hand i dont aggree with the roll cost reduction, it feels like a cop out, that the devs couldnt come up with something better.
Damage shields should be the prime defensive mechanic for light armor, it would make more sense thematically as well.

Merllow

Beardimus wrote: »

Each has their advantage.

Build Tri Stat, food & pots..
Since the Impen changes run a few Well Fitted..

I hear your point, I used to say it. That Magika Builds are Tri stat hybrids in PvP. But learn to manage your resources and it's ok.

I'm Tri stat enchants, food and pots but my Magika is still very high (Necro & Bright) and damage strong in noCP

Why force mana builds to make a hybrid, even if they have an identical situation, but mana is spent instead of stamina. And a hybrid is a losing proposition. You can never experience tight control either. Stamina builds easily choose what they do with stamina, heal, use rolldodge and if they manage to restore health, they start attacking. Mana assembly has no advantages and after the end of resources, no choice.

Merllow

Firstmep wrote: »

I know its a small thing, but in the Elder Scrolls universe, its called MAGICKA, not mana.

On topic tho: The break free cost reduction light armor gets next patch is actually pretty big, on the other hand i dont aggree with the roll cost reduction, it feels like a cop out, that the devs couldnt come up with something better.
Damage shields should be the prime defensive mechanic for light armor, it would make more sense thematically as well.

then the shields must have some kind of protection from control or be applied during control

Raideen

I agree 100% Merllow.

It's no surprise to anyone that magicka right now suffer pretty much across the board. Stamina not only gets iWin attacks with Dizzing swing, a low cost, hard hitting attack that stuns and immobilizes...all in a spammable. But they get more burst up front and more defenses up front. Stamina get more gear choices, by about a factor of 2. There are more gear combinations for stamina than magicka. Stamina also enjoy more options for races. Magicka gets 5, Stamina gets 8.

I always laugh when I see a stamina player QQ about having to use stamina as their DPS resource and their sprint/break free resource because their builds are easy to make, straight forward. Max stamina, get some stamina regen...WIN.

Magicka on the other hand have to find gear that supports both stamina AND magicka regen, but at the cost of some offensive or defensive utility. Stamina are not faces with this issue and the reduces options for building a character.

There are so many terrible design decisions behind how this game addresses stamina vs magicka I can't do anything but shake my head in disbelief.

HankTwo

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

Raideen

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You dont need all of that for stam DK's lol. They are literally the best iWin PVP class in the game. Leap, HA while mid air, DS, DS, exc opponent is dead inside of 2 seconds.

HankTwo

Raideen wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You dont need all of that for stam DK's lol. They are literally the best iWin PVP class in the game. Leap, HA while mid air, DS, DS, exc opponent is dead inside of 2 seconds.

If your opponent is a scrub that doesnt know what the heck hes doing that is. Edit: And even then you cant do a leap, a heavy attack, two dizzies and an execute in just 2 seconds.

Here is a PvP tier list by veteran PvPers for the current patch:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/557210/pvp-tierlist-for-markarth/p1

See how low they ranked stam DK overall? Personally, I think they undervalued the class a bit, but it is most definitely not the 'best iWin PVP class in the game'.

Merllow

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

Firstmep

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

It is true that both magicka and stamina players use magicka abilities for utility skills, and in some cases healing, however dont forget that on top of both using stamina for core combat skills like block, dodge etc, stamina users also use stamina for most of their attacks and heals.

In a lot of cases stamina players use magicka for certain skills, simply beacuse theres no better alternative that costs stamina, not beacuse they "have to do something" with their magicka bar.

It is true that stamina has it a bit easier right now, but thats largely due to sets.

That being said the changes to light armor next patch do worry me, i dont like being forced into being a roll dodge monkey on a magicka build, just beacuse the devs cant come up with something more fitting as a defense mechanic.

Damage shields should get a rework, that shouldve happened ages ago, and light armor should be the prime damage shielding armor type.

In previous ES games Mysticism and Alteration magic dealt with the defense of magicka users, and frankly nothing about wearing a robe gives me the impression of being an agile/acrobatic and evasive person.

I do like the light armor passive next patch that provides break free cost reduction, i think that one is needed and is fitting, magicka users in older ES games focused on the Willpower stat, so one can make connection between Willpower and being able to break free from crowd control.

But roll dodge? Please no. It makes no sense thematically, and further erodes the distinction between magicka and stamina playstyles.

Merllow

Firstmep wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

It is true that both magicka and stamina players use magicka abilities for utility skills, and in some cases healing, however dont forget that on top of both using stamina for core combat skills like block, dodge etc, stamina users also use stamina for most of their attacks and heals.

In a lot of cases stamina players use magicka for certain skills, simply beacuse theres no better alternative that costs stamina, not beacuse they "have to do something" with their magicka bar.

It is true that stamina has it a bit easier right now, but thats largely due to sets.

That being said the changes to light armor next patch do worry me, i dont like being forced into being a roll dodge monkey on a magicka build, just beacuse the devs cant come up with something more fitting as a defense mechanic.

Damage shields should get a rework, that shouldve happened ages ago, and light armor should be the prime damage shielding armor type.

In previous ES games Mysticism and Alteration magic dealt with the defense of magicka users, and frankly nothing about wearing a robe gives me the impression of being an agile/acrobatic and evasive person.

I do like the light armor passive next patch that provides break free cost reduction, i think that one is needed and is fitting, magicka users in older ES games focused on the Willpower stat, so one can make connection between Willpower and being able to break free from crowd control.

But roll dodge? Please no. It makes no sense thematically, and further erodes the distinction between magicka and stamina playstyles.

Of course, stamina players use skills for stamina, but their stamina regeneration allows them to do so. There is no build stamina where the player just got into control for 7 seconds, the stamina will be restored already in 2 seconds. Magika builds also use skills for stamina. For some reason you think that since stamina is not used for skills, then it is always in excess, but it ends after the second control and is no longer restored.

HankTwo

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

Mate, I'm not exclusively playing stam, I have more mag characters than stam and even play a hybrid from time to time. You sound a bit like you almost exclusively play mag (correct me if I'm wrong). If thats the case that very much limits your perception about balance. Imo mag is very strong rn, especially in high mmr bgs, but you can also make strong mag builds for open world cyro.

For stam sustain without sacrificing all that much you have multiple options (and no, you definitely dont need 2k stam regen on mag builds)
- sets like eternal vigor (heavy) or amber plasm (light)
- heavy armor passives
- tri pots (especially on malacath builds)
- some races have extra stam sustain
- some classes have good stam sustain as well

For max stat its also not that hard:
- Tri stat glyphs everywhere. Seriously do it. Not only does it give you mag and stam but also health which is very useful
- Triune jewelry (same as above)
- Bewitched sugar skulls, overall an amazing top tier food, I use it on most of my characters, both on mag and stam
- Dunmer race (or Khajiit but its more niche)
- Undaunted passives (play 5/1/1)

And to preserve stam:
- Get a mag mobility option. Some classes have very nice tools in this regard, but race against time and mistform are available to everyone. Instead of dodge rolling after getting immobilized/snared use these tools instead

Personally, I like that stam and mag builds have this clear distinction that mag uses their off stat for break free, dodge, sprint and block, while stam uses their off stat mostly for utility skills. It creates a clear distinction between the two playstyles, and more streamlining is definitely not what this game needs.

Merllow

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

Mate, I'm not exclusively playing stam, I have more mag characters than stam and even play a hybrid from time to time. You sound a bit like you almost exclusively play mag (correct me if I'm wrong). If thats the case that very much limits your perception about balance. Imo mag is very strong rn, especially in high mmr bgs, but you can also make strong mag builds for open world cyro.

For stam sustain without sacrificing all that much you have multiple options (and no, you definitely dont need 2k stam regen on mag builds)
- sets like eternal vigor (heavy) or amber plasm (light)
- heavy armor passives
- tri pots (especially on malacath builds)
- some races have extra stam sustain
- some classes have good stam sustain as well

For max stat its also not that hard:
- Tri stat glyphs everywhere. Seriously do it. Not only does it give you mag and stam but also health which is very useful
- Triune jewelry (same as above)
- Bewitched sugar skulls, overall an amazing top tier food, I use it on most of my characters, both on mag and stam
- Dunmer race (or Khajiit but its more niche)
- Undaunted passives (play 5/1/1)

And to preserve stam:
- Get a mag mobility option. Some classes have very nice tools in this regard, but race against time and mistform are available to everyone. Instead of dodge rolling after getting immobilized/snared use these tools instead

Personally, I like that stam and mag builds have this clear distinction that mag uses their off stat for break free, dodge, sprint and block, while stam uses their off stat mostly for utility skills. It creates a clear distinction between the two playstyles, and more streamlining is definitely not what this game needs.

everything that you named so is used by me, except equipment. Stamina classes have enough simple enchantments and food to get 3000 recovery. and using such sets will take away your damage. Stamina assemblies can completely dispense with protection and just somersault. And tell me what will happen to you when you run out of energy and stunned? I guess you have about 1000 stamina recovery even with this equipment

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I will concede that head to head, stamina is stronger than magic as a general rule in PVP. You are also on to the main issue that magic must consider their stamina pool in a build, and stamina can ignore their magic pool, or at least, not worry about it too much.

I will say, there are things you can do to close the gap. Tri-stat food is a strong choice. Sugar skulls are hard to beat as a food. I dont think that in it of itself puts you at a disadvantage. Play to your magic survival tools, heals and shields.

Run well-fitted gear. I was so hesitant to do it, but I made the change to seven well fitted on my mag sorc and it is night and day better than 7 impen, or anything else I have tried. Use your CP to invest heavily into break free. Consider monster set bonuses that give both stam and magic. I run two one piece bonuses that give approx 1k of each. Sets like Trainee can also be good to help fill out a build, especially if using mythic items. Tri Stat glyphs are best in slot use them on everything.

My mag sorc sits at 49k magic, 19k stam and 26k health. A stamina build is almost certainly going to have more weapon damage than I do spell damage, but those raw stats are harder to achieve on stamina. I can roll dodge with stacking costs 7 times in a row. It is rare that running out of stam (or any resource) is what kills me. I am at the speed cap and can burst from range, so there are advantages to magic. Overall, I think the balance favors stamina, but it's closer than people like to admit if I am being honest with myself.

Merllow

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I will concede that head to head, stamina is stronger than magic as a general rule in PVP. You are also on to the main issue that magic must consider their stamina pool in a build, and stamina can ignore their magic pool, or at least, not worry about it too much.

I will say, there are things you can do to close the gap. Tri-stat food is a strong choice. Sugar skulls are hard to beat as a food. I dont think that in it of itself puts you at a disadvantage. Play to your magic survival tools, heals and shields.

Run well-fitted gear. I was so hesitant to do it, but I made the change to seven well fitted on my mag sorc and it is night and day better than 7 impen, or anything else I have tried. Use your CP to invest heavily into break free. Consider monster set bonuses that give both stam and magic. I run two one piece bonuses that give approx 1k of each. Sets like Trainee can also be good to help fill out a build, especially if using mythic items. Tri Stat glyphs are best in slot use them on everything.

My mag sorc sits at 49k magic, 19k stam and 26k health. A stamina build is almost certainly going to have more weapon damage than I do spell damage, but those raw stats are harder to achieve on stamina. I can roll dodge with stacking costs 7 times in a row. It is rare that running out of stam (or any resource) is what kills me. I am at the speed cap and can burst from range, so there are advantages to magic. Overall, I think the balance favors stamina, but it's closer than people like to admit if I am being honest with myself.

the fact of the matter is that people make half mana, half stamina class. And imagine, this is not the first day I have been playing and I have almost the same set as yours. But you will always lose 1v1 to stamina. And you just need to come up with 1 thing, this is the breakfree for mana

HankTwo

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

Mate, I'm not exclusively playing stam, I have more mag characters than stam and even play a hybrid from time to time. You sound a bit like you almost exclusively play mag (correct me if I'm wrong). If thats the case that very much limits your perception about balance. Imo mag is very strong rn, especially in high mmr bgs, but you can also make strong mag builds for open world cyro.

For stam sustain without sacrificing all that much you have multiple options (and no, you definitely dont need 2k stam regen on mag builds)
- sets like eternal vigor (heavy) or amber plasm (light)
- heavy armor passives
- tri pots (especially on malacath builds)
- some races have extra stam sustain
- some classes have good stam sustain as well

For max stat its also not that hard:
- Tri stat glyphs everywhere. Seriously do it. Not only does it give you mag and stam but also health which is very useful
- Triune jewelry (same as above)
- Bewitched sugar skulls, overall an amazing top tier food, I use it on most of my characters, both on mag and stam
- Dunmer race (or Khajiit but its more niche)
- Undaunted passives (play 5/1/1)

And to preserve stam:
- Get a mag mobility option. Some classes have very nice tools in this regard, but race against time and mistform are available to everyone. Instead of dodge rolling after getting immobilized/snared use these tools instead

Personally, I like that stam and mag builds have this clear distinction that mag uses their off stat for break free, dodge, sprint and block, while stam uses their off stat mostly for utility skills. It creates a clear distinction between the two playstyles, and more streamlining is definitely not what this game needs.

everything that you named so is used by me, except equipment. Stamina classes have enough simple enchantments and food to get 3000 recovery. and using such sets will take away your damage. Stamina assemblies can completely dispense with protection and just somersault. And tell me what will happen to you when you run out of energy and stunned? I guess you have about 1000 stamina recovery even with this equipment

If you have a big stam pool from bewitched suger skulls and full tri stat enchants, are in heavy armor and use tri stat pots I honestly dont know how you run out of stamina that easily. Maybe you dodge roll too much? If so try well fitted. And you don't loose too much damage with a set like eternal vigor, since the mag sustain you get from this set lets you build for more spell damage elsewhere. After all, a lot of stam builds use that set as well.

Another way of indirectly strengthening your stam sustain would be to learn how to avoid stuns better. Depending on your class and build style there are different options. Sorc for example can avoid a lot via ball of lighting, while mag DK for example synergizes well with snb to block the most dangerous attacks.

Merllow

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

Mate, I'm not exclusively playing stam, I have more mag characters than stam and even play a hybrid from time to time. You sound a bit like you almost exclusively play mag (correct me if I'm wrong). If thats the case that very much limits your perception about balance. Imo mag is very strong rn, especially in high mmr bgs, but you can also make strong mag builds for open world cyro.

For stam sustain without sacrificing all that much you have multiple options (and no, you definitely dont need 2k stam regen on mag builds)
- sets like eternal vigor (heavy) or amber plasm (light)
- heavy armor passives
- tri pots (especially on malacath builds)
- some races have extra stam sustain
- some classes have good stam sustain as well

For max stat its also not that hard:
- Tri stat glyphs everywhere. Seriously do it. Not only does it give you mag and stam but also health which is very useful
- Triune jewelry (same as above)
- Bewitched sugar skulls, overall an amazing top tier food, I use it on most of my characters, both on mag and stam
- Dunmer race (or Khajiit but its more niche)
- Undaunted passives (play 5/1/1)

And to preserve stam:
- Get a mag mobility option. Some classes have very nice tools in this regard, but race against time and mistform are available to everyone. Instead of dodge rolling after getting immobilized/snared use these tools instead

Personally, I like that stam and mag builds have this clear distinction that mag uses their off stat for break free, dodge, sprint and block, while stam uses their off stat mostly for utility skills. It creates a clear distinction between the two playstyles, and more streamlining is definitely not what this game needs.

everything that you named so is used by me, except equipment. Stamina classes have enough simple enchantments and food to get 3000 recovery. and using such sets will take away your damage. Stamina assemblies can completely dispense with protection and just somersault. And tell me what will happen to you when you run out of energy and stunned? I guess you have about 1000 stamina recovery even with this equipment

If you have a big stam pool from bewitched suger skulls and full tri stat enchants, are in heavy armor and use tri stat pots I honestly dont know how you run out of stamina that easily. Maybe you dodge roll too much? If so try well fitted. And you don't loose too much damage with a set like eternal vigor, since the mag sustain you get from this set lets you build for more spell damage elsewhere. After all, a lot of stam builds use that set as well.

Another way of indirectly strengthening your stam sustain would be to learn how to avoid stuns better. Depending on your class and build style there are different options. Sorc for example can avoid a lot via ball of lighting, while mag DK for example synergizes well with snb to block the most dangerous attacks.

you are talking about something completely different and did not answer the question, the stamina pool is not a solution if you are focused

HankTwo

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

Mate, I'm not exclusively playing stam, I have more mag characters than stam and even play a hybrid from time to time. You sound a bit like you almost exclusively play mag (correct me if I'm wrong). If thats the case that very much limits your perception about balance. Imo mag is very strong rn, especially in high mmr bgs, but you can also make strong mag builds for open world cyro.

For stam sustain without sacrificing all that much you have multiple options (and no, you definitely dont need 2k stam regen on mag builds)
- sets like eternal vigor (heavy) or amber plasm (light)
- heavy armor passives
- tri pots (especially on malacath builds)
- some races have extra stam sustain
- some classes have good stam sustain as well

For max stat its also not that hard:
- Tri stat glyphs everywhere. Seriously do it. Not only does it give you mag and stam but also health which is very useful
- Triune jewelry (same as above)
- Bewitched sugar skulls, overall an amazing top tier food, I use it on most of my characters, both on mag and stam
- Dunmer race (or Khajiit but its more niche)
- Undaunted passives (play 5/1/1)

And to preserve stam:
- Get a mag mobility option. Some classes have very nice tools in this regard, but race against time and mistform are available to everyone. Instead of dodge rolling after getting immobilized/snared use these tools instead

Personally, I like that stam and mag builds have this clear distinction that mag uses their off stat for break free, dodge, sprint and block, while stam uses their off stat mostly for utility skills. It creates a clear distinction between the two playstyles, and more streamlining is definitely not what this game needs.

everything that you named so is used by me, except equipment. Stamina classes have enough simple enchantments and food to get 3000 recovery. and using such sets will take away your damage. Stamina assemblies can completely dispense with protection and just somersault. And tell me what will happen to you when you run out of energy and stunned? I guess you have about 1000 stamina recovery even with this equipment

If you have a big stam pool from bewitched suger skulls and full tri stat enchants, are in heavy armor and use tri stat pots I honestly dont know how you run out of stamina that easily. Maybe you dodge roll too much? If so try well fitted. And you don't loose too much damage with a set like eternal vigor, since the mag sustain you get from this set lets you build for more spell damage elsewhere. After all, a lot of stam builds use that set as well.

Another way of indirectly strengthening your stam sustain would be to learn how to avoid stuns better. Depending on your class and build style there are different options. Sorc for example can avoid a lot via ball of lighting, while mag DK for example synergizes well with snb to block the most dangerous attacks.

you are talking about something completely different and did not answer the question, the stamina pool is not a solution if you are focused

By being focused do you mean a single player or multiple? Because if multiple good players focus you down you will either run out of resources after some struggle or simply get mowed down by damage you cant outheal. The same applies to stam builds, thats just the nature of the game.

Otherwise I'm sorry for misunderstanding you I guess? Just explain in detail what you actually mean then. Maybe there is some unnecessary stamina drain in your playstyle (you mentioned using stamina skills on a mag toon, maybe thats where your issues are coming from?).

Joy_Division

While I do think stamina specs are better than magicka specs, the reasoning in the OP here may have been true in 2015, but isn;t the case anymore. An experienced magicka player using Sugar Skulls should not run out of stamina - especially now with the regen buffed so much - and will not run out next update if they have 800 CP or so.

Stamina specs are generally better because:

• they have a choice of 4 weapons, whereas magicka only has access to one offensive weapon and it isn;t that good
• Cheap burst ultimates, whereas magicka's has expensive super telegraphed meteor
• New classes have stamina scaling class heals, which used to be exclusively a magicka thing.
• Inherent speed / mobility advantage
• Generally more bar space freedom because ZOS took away the multifunctionality of many magicka skills. It would take my templar 3 bar slots to get what Rally gives stam specs.
• dodge is usually a better means of defense than block or shield.

fred4

I fundamentally agree with the OP. For my playstyle being stamina constrained on magicka characters is a major issue. More so in no CP, but even in CP where I play. It's not just a performance issue, it also saps the fun out of the game as it forces you to streak away, cloak away or go into Mist Form or Meditate to manage your stamina. These are things that take you out of active combat and hold you back. Of course this can happen on stamina characters as well, but it happens much more easily on magicka ones.

I prefer stamina regen, such as from Eternal Vigor, Amber Plasm, Restoring Focus and the Bull Netch over merely a decent pool (Sugar Skulls) on magicka builds. You can manage with less than 1K, but I love playing with more. What really drove this home to me is my magplar. Combining Eternal Vigor, Amber Plasm, Restoring Focus and Sugar Skulls in a light armor build feels better for me than any heavy armor build I've tried, but of course you limit your damage that way and become shoehorned into just those sets.

I want to specifically counter the stam DK player who said he uses 4 magicka skills and wears Eternal Vigor. There is no question in my mind that that is a choice, not a necessity. Some skills are nice. Fossilize, perhaps wings, or simply repeated casts of Fragmented Shield. However you can absolutely limit your build to avoid that. I have done so and my DK is all the stronger for it. You can't ignore the opposite stat on a magicka build nearly as easily.

Having said all that, I would not like to see magicka classes become carbon copies of stamina ones. I think there is one magicka class which gets it right and that is sorc. Bolt Escape is a unique mobility skill, unmatched by stamina. A stamsorc is quite limited in their use of Streak, much like magicka characters have limited dodge rolls. Magorcs are also known for that other distinct magicka defense: Shields. There was a time when shields, sorc shields in particular, were viewed as OP. This has gradually been eroded with shields being able to be crit, with armor starting to play a role underneath the shield and with nerfs to Healing Ward. That last skill is a pale shadow of it's former self.

Race Against Time has been a nice addition that mitigates some of the downsides of a magicka build. I don't dodge roll, if I'm in a root, I use that skill instead. Nevertheless, it's not the same. A dodge roll happens off GCD, mitigates damage, moves you quite a distance (out of danger) and, if you equip a bow, also gives you Major Expedition. That is a LOT, especially considering you can also cast a skill in that GCD. Dodge rolls are responsive and they don't (or at least don't appear to) fail in lag. There is a timing advantage over casting RAT. There is also an efficiency advantage by not wasting a GCD. The only skill that feels as visceral and effective to me, despite being a skill, is Bolt Escape. Tell me you do anything but dodge roll or Streak, if you suddenly get caught in a necro ult, for example.

I don't really know what the solution is. Make something akin to a dodge roll, a teleport as you call it, and it risks being a dodge roll by another name. We already have that. It's called Streak. Give magicka classes something off GCD, like a dodge roll, and sorcs will have their cake and eat it, while the other magicka classes are merely catching up. The usual. I'm really struggling with a solution. ZOS gave us RAT. That's kind of been it. They also gave us vampires, e.g. Mist Form.

Merllow

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Merllow wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You have no clue what you are talking about if you think that stam classes don't utilize magicka. On my stam DK for example 4 out of 10 skills are magicka. On my build they are used for buffs, cc, mobility, and extra healing, so they are quite critical for success. The only way I can sustain that on this build is with eternal vigor and tri stat pots during kite intensive fights.

And just fyi 99% of stam builds are not even close to 4k stam regen since that is wasteful oversustain that is better invested elsewhere.

You use magika because it exists and you have to do something with it. I would feel great if I needed stamina for buffs, control, mobility and additional healing. However, magika builds need stamina for abilities (sometimes), as well as for break free, rolldodge, sprint. Let's take into account that for this you have 15k stamina and then 15k due to the use of three-stat food to reduce your magika regeneration by 500 points. And the stamina regeneration is 800 points. You play as a stamina build and say with confidence that magika builds feel good. Or maybe magika builds should increase their stamina regeneration to 1500-2000? at the same time have good magika regeneration and not lose in damage

Mate, I'm not exclusively playing stam, I have more mag characters than stam and even play a hybrid from time to time. You sound a bit like you almost exclusively play mag (correct me if I'm wrong). If thats the case that very much limits your perception about balance. Imo mag is very strong rn, especially in high mmr bgs, but you can also make strong mag builds for open world cyro.

For stam sustain without sacrificing all that much you have multiple options (and no, you definitely dont need 2k stam regen on mag builds)
- sets like eternal vigor (heavy) or amber plasm (light)
- heavy armor passives
- tri pots (especially on malacath builds)
- some races have extra stam sustain
- some classes have good stam sustain as well

For max stat its also not that hard:
- Tri stat glyphs everywhere. Seriously do it. Not only does it give you mag and stam but also health which is very useful
- Triune jewelry (same as above)
- Bewitched sugar skulls, overall an amazing top tier food, I use it on most of my characters, both on mag and stam
- Dunmer race (or Khajiit but its more niche)
- Undaunted passives (play 5/1/1)

And to preserve stam:
- Get a mag mobility option. Some classes have very nice tools in this regard, but race against time and mistform are available to everyone. Instead of dodge rolling after getting immobilized/snared use these tools instead

Personally, I like that stam and mag builds have this clear distinction that mag uses their off stat for break free, dodge, sprint and block, while stam uses their off stat mostly for utility skills. It creates a clear distinction between the two playstyles, and more streamlining is definitely not what this game needs.

everything that you named so is used by me, except equipment. Stamina classes have enough simple enchantments and food to get 3000 recovery. and using such sets will take away your damage. Stamina assemblies can completely dispense with protection and just somersault. And tell me what will happen to you when you run out of energy and stunned? I guess you have about 1000 stamina recovery even with this equipment

If you have a big stam pool from bewitched suger skulls and full tri stat enchants, are in heavy armor and use tri stat pots I honestly dont know how you run out of stamina that easily. Maybe you dodge roll too much? If so try well fitted. And you don't loose too much damage with a set like eternal vigor, since the mag sustain you get from this set lets you build for more spell damage elsewhere. After all, a lot of stam builds use that set as well.

Another way of indirectly strengthening your stam sustain would be to learn how to avoid stuns better. Depending on your class and build style there are different options. Sorc for example can avoid a lot via ball of lighting, while mag DK for example synergizes well with snb to block the most dangerous attacks.

you are talking about something completely different and did not answer the question, the stamina pool is not a solution if you are focused

By being focused do you mean a single player or multiple? Because if multiple good players focus you down you will either run out of resources after some struggle or simply get mowed down by damage you cant outheal. The same applies to stam builds, thats just the nature of the game.

Otherwise I'm sorry for misunderstanding you I guess? Just explain in detail what you actually mean then. Maybe there is some unnecessary stamina drain in your playstyle (you mentioned using stamina skills on a mag toon, maybe thats where your issues are coming from?).

I mean, when a stamina build uses a time cooldown stun on you, you will soon sit down and you don't have enough stamina regeneration to free yourself.It's not enough to just have a large pool without regeneration

fred4

Joy_Division wrote: »

An experienced magicka player using Sugar Skulls should not run out of stamina.

I wonder would that player specifically play an Altmer though (stam return passive) or perhaps an Argonian (potion passive). I play Bretons. My bad.