Real horizontal progression from CP. Changes that should be made.

zvavi

Alright, after so many complaints about the new CP it is time to explain the problem (Vertical progression until very high CP, highlighted in my thread in general forums, The new CP system. False promises of horizontal progression.), and talk about the solution.

Before getting to the solution, lets look at the trees:
Green tree:
Passive CP total: 465
Active CP total: 1380
Total CP to max: 1845 Green CP, 5535 CP total.
Blue tree:
Passive CP total: 860
Active CP total: 1150
Total CP to max: 2010 Blue CP, 6030 CP total.
Red tree:
Passive CP total: 953 (wtf number?!?!)
Active CP total: 850
Total CP to max: 1803 Red CP, 5409 CP total (...)

The main offender to the vertical progression, is the Passive CP. In that regard, the Green tree does it best, but it is not the best either, since it got too many active stars, that it becomes a headache to juggle them all.
The Red and Blue trees have better balance of active and passive stars, but their issue is that since all the passive stars are important for combat (PvP said hi :waves:).

Power level aside (can be balanced either) Dev's aim was to make the new CP vertical progression until CP 1200 (assumption by all their "ye vertical progression stops at 1200 cp"), it is time to talk about the solution. :drums: :drums: :drums:

The solution::
Passive CP's are strong, so are actives, as they should be, vertical progression ends when you can slot 4 active skills (5 for Blue tree), and have most of the passive skills.
Here is what should be done with each tree:

Green tree:
Move to passive CP: Soul Reservoir (because it is that bad), Master Gatherer, Treasure Hunter (those 2 actions are too common to make people juggle them) and Rationer (slotting this one in and out every time you eat food.... nehhhh).
Cut and balance CP of all passives until all passives together amount to 300 CP

End result: 300 passive CP, 1100 active CP, total green CP 1400.

Red tree:
This one has a better Balance of active and passive stars but we have one very strong passive star that should be in the active stars, move fortification to active stars, and lower it's cost to 50.
Cut and balance CP of all passives until all passives together amount to 300 CP

End result: 300 passive CP, 900 active CP, total Red CP 1200.

Blue tree:
oooo boy. this one is way way way too pricy. so changes would be:
Reduce cost of all active stars by 20%~(yes it is intended to have cheaper stars in this tree, and yes I am biased for the end game dps, and I know it)
Cut and balance CP of all passives until all passives together amount to 300 CP

End result: 300 passive CP, 900 active CP, total Blue CP 1200.

End end result: vertical progression ends between 1200 to 1500 CP, depending on your preference.

Additional QoL changes:
Make the lines between CP more visible, it is impossible to see them.
Pressing +/- in the CP star will automatically fill/empty it to the next stage. No CP can be allocated to a passive you don't have enough CP to unlock.

Future plans:
Consider class specific active CP.

Ty for reading.

tl;dr
The only way to make vertical progression stop earlier is lower the cost of passive stars by a lot.

Kurat

Passives dont add much dps. In fact the whole cp system doesn't mean much. I have 1400 cp and did some parsing on pts, with and without cp. With 0 cp points assigned I lost about 20% of dps on 3 mil dummy. And because of the 4 slot thing, someone with only half my cp is only behind 5-10%. What vertical progression everyone moaning about. Theres no more power creep from cp.

zvavi

Kurat wrote: »

Passives dont add much dps.

another reason to lower the costs of passives.

AMeanOne

Kurat wrote: »

Passives dont add much dps. In fact the whole cp system doesn't mean much. I have 1400 cp and did some parsing on pts, with and without cp. With 0 cp points assigned I lost about 20% of dps on 3 mil dummy. And because of the 4 slot thing, someone with only half my cp is only behind 5-10%. What vertical progression everyone moaning about. Theres no more power creep from cp.

The passives, not the slottables.

Foto1

Kurat wrote: »

Passives dont add much dps. In fact the whole cp system doesn't mean much. I have 1400 cp and did some parsing on pts, with and without cp. With 0 cp points assigned I lost about 20% of dps on 3 mil dummy. And because of the 4 slot thing, someone with only half my cp is only behind 5-10%. What vertical progression everyone moaning about. Theres no more power creep from cp.

Now think about pvp. which stars would you not take? how many points would you need? (I counted about 2700cp)

Olupajmibanan

I think that whole sub-Warfare tree that has mitigation cps (healing taken, mitigation from non-player attacks, mitigation from magic/martial and one active for critical resistance) should be moved under Fitness. This would fit the theme better and would solve some problems.

You can have your damage passives and actives relatively quickly, but you'll end up being without any mitigation which is crucial for some trials. Fitness tree has 2 useful passives and 4 actives, so you end up having everything useful at 1000 CPs and you are spending the rest elsewhere so having mitigation sub-tree under Fitness would reduce the need for blue CPs and increase the need for red ones, resulting in overal less CP demand and possibly bringing it to advertised 1200.

Kurat

Foto1 wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Passives dont add much dps. In fact the whole cp system doesn't mean much. I have 1400 cp and did some parsing on pts, with and without cp. With 0 cp points assigned I lost about 20% of dps on 3 mil dummy. And because of the 4 slot thing, someone with only half my cp is only behind 5-10%. What vertical progression everyone moaning about. Theres no more power creep from cp.

Now think about pvp. which stars would you not take? how many points would you need? (I counted about 2700cp)

Pvp is different story I agree. But we are supposed to make choices now. Pick the stars that you think are best for your build and playstyle. Others may choose different ones and maybe it adds more fun. But I'm sure some meta will form. Also don't forget that most players are about the same cp range, give or take 200-300 cp. And that's nothing. No one is gonna be 2700 soon. I'm currently 1400cp and I need 1.1mil xp to gain 1 cp. That's alot of cp, and it will take years to reach high enough that I would have small advantage. Just play the game and don't worry about cp, you'll be fine.

lillybit

Kurat wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Passives dont add much dps. In fact the whole cp system doesn't mean much. I have 1400 cp and did some parsing on pts, with and without cp. With 0 cp points assigned I lost about 20% of dps on 3 mil dummy. And because of the 4 slot thing, someone with only half my cp is only behind 5-10%. What vertical progression everyone moaning about. Theres no more power creep from cp.

Now think about pvp. which stars would you not take? how many points would you need? (I counted about 2700cp)

Pvp is different story I agree. But we are supposed to make choices now. Pick the stars that you think are best for your build and playstyle. Others may choose different ones and maybe it adds more fun. But I'm sure some meta will form. Also don't forget that most players are about the same cp range, give or take 200-300 cp. And that's nothing. No one is gonna be 2700 soon. I'm currently 1400cp and I need 1.1mil xp to gain 1 cp. That's alot of cp, and it will take years to reach high enough that I would have small advantage. Just play the game and don't worry about cp, you'll be fine.

It doesn't matter to you. It doesn't matter to me that much either. The thing is, it very much does matter to some. While there are people who will grind to get closer to cap, there will become more of a problem. There will be groups in PvP that new players can't compete with. Trials will be harder to get in to - between someone at 1000 and someone at 2000, the higher CP gives an advantage so that's what groups will look for. People who are currently doing endgame content may not be stopped from doing it from a purely power level perspective, but they will be overlooked in favour of someone with higher CP.

Changes like this don't happen in isolation. It's not enough to look at the CP system and say "you can get most of the benefits at 1200" and think that's all that will matter. You have to take in to account how people play. While there are people playing that will only care about being max level (and there are), it will have a bounce down effect that will make it harder and harder for everyone else, especially newcomers. Add in the gating and paths and new players have even more of an uphill fight before they can even start to be competitive

VoidCommander

I’m fairly sure the rate of co gain at 1400 cp will be similar to how long it takes to level up at 400 cp right now, meaning it shouldn’t take too horribly long to gain some cp.

ZeroDPS

Kurat wrote: »

Passives dont add much dps. In fact the whole cp system doesn't mean much. I have 1400 cp and did some parsing on pts, with and without cp. With 0 cp points assigned I lost about 20% of dps on 3 mil dummy. And because of the 4 slot thing, someone with only half my cp is only behind 5-10%. What vertical progression everyone moaning about. Theres no more power creep from cp.

and are you okay with the idea that your 1400+ cp doesnt mean much?

Foto1

Kurat wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Passives dont add much dps. In fact the whole cp system doesn't mean much. I have 1400 cp and did some parsing on pts, with and without cp. With 0 cp points assigned I lost about 20% of dps on 3 mil dummy. And because of the 4 slot thing, someone with only half my cp is only behind 5-10%. What vertical progression everyone moaning about. Theres no more power creep from cp.

Now think about pvp. which stars would you not take? how many points would you need? (I counted about 2700cp)

Pvp is different story I agree. But we are supposed to make choices now. Pick the stars that you think are best for your build and playstyle. Others may choose different ones and maybe it adds more fun. But I'm sure some meta will form. Also don't forget that most players are about the same cp range, give or take 200-300 cp. And that's nothing. No one is gonna be 2700 soon. I'm currently 1400cp and I need 1.1mil xp to gain 1 cp. That's alot of cp, and it will take years to reach high enough that I would have small advantage. Just play the game and don't worry about cp, you'll be fine.

I have friends who have 2900+ cp right now. I would not like to meet with them in pvp. after the update, there are players who want to farm in order to get the required 2700 cp. because of this, other players, like me, who are tired of farming, will be forced to either do this or never enter the cp-campaign

Lughlongarm

The things I found really strange about the system:

1)Based on the dev comment, the future of the system will be based on adding purple star constellations(like the 2 we have on the blue tree). The 2 purple stars we already have are almost completely passive bonuses. If they will add even more g purple star constellations(Like they said they would), we'r talking about even more passives, more vertical progression and more power creep. How is this in line with the their vision about emphasizing horizontal progression.

2)There are some huge power gaps between slottables stars. For example, +1900 armor while wielding a shield competes with +10% single target attacks mitigation. For PvP for example 90% of the builds, blue CP tree will be: +10% single target damage/+10% dot target damage/ +10% single target damage mitigation/+10% dot target damage mitigation. So only the illusion of choice.

3)There are much more options to increase defense from CP compared to Increasing damage. One of the reasons everyone is immortal on PTS, and this gap will keep on increasing the more CP you have.

Ocelot9x

Foto1 wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Foto1 wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Passives dont add much dps. In fact the whole cp system doesn't mean much. I have 1400 cp and did some parsing on pts, with and without cp. With 0 cp points assigned I lost about 20% of dps on 3 mil dummy. And because of the 4 slot thing, someone with only half my cp is only behind 5-10%. What vertical progression everyone moaning about. Theres no more power creep from cp.

Now think about pvp. which stars would you not take? how many points would you need? (I counted about 2700cp)

Pvp is different story I agree. But we are supposed to make choices now. Pick the stars that you think are best for your build and playstyle. Others may choose different ones and maybe it adds more fun. But I'm sure some meta will form. Also don't forget that most players are about the same cp range, give or take 200-300 cp. And that's nothing. No one is gonna be 2700 soon. I'm currently 1400cp and I need 1.1mil xp to gain 1 cp. That's alot of cp, and it will take years to reach high enough that I would have small advantage. Just play the game and don't worry about cp, you'll be fine.

I have friends who have 2900+ cp right now. I would not like to meet with them in pvp. after the update, there are players who want to farm in order to get the required 2700 cp. because of this, other players, like me, who are tired of farming, will be forced to either do this or never enter the cp-campaign

That's what i fear the most, I have like 3-4k hours one eso and since I did almost only pvp I'm sitting at 1200 cp. Suddenly I heal 10% less and take 10% increased damage from other players so I'm forced to start grinding again, and it's not one month of grinding+enjoying what i like to do, it's just grinding and grinding for months because I want to have a fair fight.

To all people saying that you should not care too much, well it's true but it would be the same thing as playing with purple charged weapons instead of gold nirn, with the only difference that you can gold a weapon in 3-4 days of farming, while you need months to get to a reasonable cp level

the1andonlyskwex

I totally agree with severely limiting the number of non-slotted passives.

That said, I would also rework the slottables so that instead of allowing 4 of each color, there would be a more strict hierarchy. For example, there might be a tree of damage bonuses, where they need to be unlocked sequentially, but only one can be equipped at a time. I would then design the passives so they get more powerful, but also more specific/narrow, as you go up the tree. So, the bonuses might be the following as you go up the tree (specific numbers aren't necessarily balanced, and only one branch of the tree included):
1) +5% to all damage
2) +10% to all direct damage
3) +15% to all single target direct damage
4) +10% to all damage dealt, and +15% to all damage received

This sort of approach would allow people with more CP to experiment with more niche/unique builds, without giving them a significant overall power advantage (if the numbers are balanced appropriately).