For the love of Y’ffre!! Bring Back Bosmer Stealth Detection Radius Reduction Passive!!!

elven.were_wolf · February 2021

It’s been 3 Chapters now. Eveli is even the poster girl for this chapter. It’s the most appropriate time to bring it back. Please, Detecting Stealthed Enemies only caters to bosmers hunting background, but does NOT to both hunting AND their abilty to stealth and be good thieves!!!
Just BRING IT BACK PLEASE!! We don’t even need the previous crit bonus! You can keep it!! Just let my wood elf thieve again.
And no, the new CP perk does not alleviate the need for this, as all races will be able to access it and thus be just as stealthy as a wood elf, which is NOT lore friendly!!

Ratzkifal · February 2021

Agreed! I also want to point out that not all hunting is done by chasing prey to exhaustion. A lot of it is also tracking it down without being seen yourself and then there are ambush hunting tactics too, where the hunter needs to be stealthy all the way until the moment to strike. So stealth would help the hunter fantasy too!

Jolipinator · February 2021

Eveli definitely mentions being sneaky/stealthy at least once in the Blackwood prologue, possibly twice, can't quite remember. So now I know not to trust a word she says.

Ratzkifal · February 2021

Jolipinator wrote: »

Eveli definitely mentions being sneaky/stealthy at least once in the Blackwood prologue, possibly twice, can't quite remember. So now I know not to trust a word she says.

The Elsweyr chapter did too, even though Wrathstone was where it all started. To me it sounds like the lore team does not like what the combat team did. Or they don't care and simply do their own thing which includes Bosmer stealth because it is honestly just such a big part of their identity.

Araneae6537 · February 2021

Agreed, they NEED to reinstate Bosmer stealth! There is plenty that distinguishes Bosmer and Khajiit passives — they can share one! Move the stupid detection bonus to a new optional PvP passive if upcoming bonus from CP isn’t enough.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe · February 2021

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

Djennku · February 2021

You can now have the passive in addition to what the bosmer already have via the new CP system, so really, you get the best of both worlds.

Ratzkifal · February 2021

Djennku wrote: »

You can now have the passive in addition to what the bosmer already have via the new CP system, so really, you get the best of both worlds.

That's not the point. The point is that Bosmer in the lore are supposed to be stealthy. Something in their racial passives should acknowledge that. It was never about being unable to clear stealth content or anything, the issue lies with the investment needing to be made just to be as good as anyone else, on a race that we all kind of expected would always stay true to what they were in previous games and in the lore.

I love that these effects exist in the CP system now because that opens up the stealth game to more races and allows people to do heists and sacraments on their characters without needing to get a second set of gear. But that just shifts the problem from "shouldn't have to wear gear" to "shouldn't need to get that CP". Bosmer have been sneaky for 25 years until Wrathstone, but in ESO they are just as stealthy as the other races of Tamriel, when they even used to be stealthier than Khajiit before Skyrim removed Acrobatics and needed to compensate the cats! And Acrobatics are a thing in ESO in the form of dodgeroll too. All we ask is to be equal with them again and let us both enjoy the passive that we both deserve.

The detection stuff is just in the way of that because of the set bonus budget. But there are also several things wrong with the detection stat itself that make it unfit as a racial passive even if it should exist in the game.

I would honestly be satisfied if they gave us something else that was explicitly sneak related, like "Add 5% movementspeed, this bonus doubles when sneaking" or something. It's not enough that they are accidentally sneaky like Imperials with their 3%, now 6%, sneak cost reduction. As long as they specifically state that Bosmer are good at sneaking, I am going to be happy.

Djennku · February 2021

Imperials do not have 6% sneak cost reduction. that passive is to abilities only.

selig_fay · February 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I would honestly be satisfied if they gave us something else that was explicitly sneak related, like "Add 5% movementspeed, this bonus doubles when sneaking" or something. It's not enough that they are accidentally sneaky like Imperials with their 3%, now 6%, sneak cost reduction. As long as they specifically state that Bosmer are good at sneaking, I am going to be happy.

Well, if they really want to rolldodge mechanic, then I would not mind getting invisibility for 2 seconds after rolldodge. 2 seconds should be enough for most stealth activities. We may lose our speed and penetration, but that's just a thought. I just don't want to have the boring usual stealth bonus.

Ratzkifal · February 2021

Djennku wrote: »

Imperials do not have 6% sneak cost reduction. that passive is to abilities only.

@Djennku No it's not. It literally applies to everything. Everything with a cost has a 3% (or 6% on PTS) reduction. That includes ultimate, but also sneak, block, breakfree, dodgeroll. Everything. It works exactly like the Alteration Mastery and Battlefield Acrobat sets which also reduce all costs. I play an Imperial tank and believe me, you can tell that it's not just skills.

JobooAGS · February 2021

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

Damn you must think that argonian and redguard are abysmal beyond repair then

Ratzkifal · February 2021

selig_fay wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I would honestly be satisfied if they gave us something else that was explicitly sneak related, like "Add 5% movementspeed, this bonus doubles when sneaking" or something. It's not enough that they are accidentally sneaky like Imperials with their 3%, now 6%, sneak cost reduction. As long as they specifically state that Bosmer are good at sneaking, I am going to be happy.

Well, if they really want to rolldodge mechanic, then I would not mind getting invisibility for 2 seconds after rolldodge. 2 seconds should be enough for most stealth activities. We may lose our speed and penetration, but that's just a thought. I just don't want to have the boring usual stealth bonus.

Personally I wouldn't like that and I like that they finally untangled that passive from rolldodge, which was just unnecessary. Bosmer are better in PvE now because of it. But yes, even that would be more lore appropriate than what they have now without any ties to stealth, so while I would prefer a more permanent bonus to stealth than one after a dodgeroll, I'd accept it over having nothing stealth related.
I doubt NBs will be happy about every class getting invisibility though. They already complained about the vampire changes.

anadandy · February 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Djennku wrote: »

You can now have the passive in addition to what the bosmer already have via the new CP system, so really, you get the best of both worlds.

That's not the point. The point is that Bosmer in the lore are supposed to be stealthy. Something in their racial passives should acknowledge that. It was never about being unable to clear stealth content or anything, the issue lies with the investment needing to be made just to be as good as anyone else, on a race that we all kind of expected would always stay true to what they were in previous games and in the lore.

Yup. That's it. I like that other races have access to stealth bonuses through CP and gear - but as it stands now, every race is as good or better (Khajiit and Imperial) than Bosmer in Stealth.

Ratzkifal · February 2021

anadandy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Djennku wrote: »

You can now have the passive in addition to what the bosmer already have via the new CP system, so really, you get the best of both worlds.

That's not the point. The point is that Bosmer in the lore are supposed to be stealthy. Something in their racial passives should acknowledge that. It was never about being unable to clear stealth content or anything, the issue lies with the investment needing to be made just to be as good as anyone else, on a race that we all kind of expected would always stay true to what they were in previous games and in the lore.

Yup. That's it. I like that other races have access to stealth bonuses through CP and gear - but as it stands now, every race is as good or better (Khajiit and Imperial) than Bosmer in Stealth.

I don't think we can count Imperial anymore, since Bosmer do have 5% faster sneak speed now. That's kind of the same vague bonus to stealth like extra max stamina for sneaking longer - so one that doesn't count because it's not explicitly stealth related.

anadandy · February 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Djennku wrote: »

You can now have the passive in addition to what the bosmer already have via the new CP system, so really, you get the best of both worlds.

That's not the point. The point is that Bosmer in the lore are supposed to be stealthy. Something in their racial passives should acknowledge that. It was never about being unable to clear stealth content or anything, the issue lies with the investment needing to be made just to be as good as anyone else, on a race that we all kind of expected would always stay true to what they were in previous games and in the lore.

Yup. That's it. I like that other races have access to stealth bonuses through CP and gear - but as it stands now, every race is as good or better (Khajiit and Imperial) than Bosmer in Stealth.

I don't think we can count Imperial anymore, since Bosmer do have 5% faster sneak speed now. That's kind of the same vague bonus to stealth like extra max stamina for sneaking longer - so one that doesn't count because it's not explicitly stealth related.

Sorry - I meant as of now live game. The sneak speed is nice - but honestly, the fix is as simple as subbing stealth radius for detection and leaving everything else alone. Those that want detection have that option in CP and it doesn't give PVE players the shaft.

Jaraal · February 2021

They just aren't invested in the TES lore anymore. It's spreadsheet theory crafting (biased towards PvP in the case of the Bosmer passive), plain and simple. Story continuity and immersion appear to be of little value to the current team.

Josira · February 2021

I always see these threads on Bosmer. yet Argonians have been in the trash(again that is. they had a brief period of actually being good) for a long time. and have just gotten yet another nerf for....some reason.
I think most argonian players have gone to that old old old magic dk mentality of "yeah I know its shite. im still playing it though" from back before coagulating blood was made to be based off of max magicka and spell damage

emilyhyoyeon · February 2021

yeah and as a mainly khajiit player it's funny because the stealth radius passive suits khajiit a LOT less than it does bosmer imo. Khajiit culture is way more warrior and martial arts based overall.
Bosmer deserve the stealth passive and khajiit should get a melee range damage bonus or extra from behind melee damage bonus, or something similar to replace it (with balanced values)

Koronach · February 2021

Josira wrote: »

I always see these threads on Bosmer. yet Argonians have been in the trash(again that is. they had a brief period of actually being good) for a long time. and have just gotten yet another nerf for....some reason.
I think most argonian players have gone to that old old old magic dk mentality of "yeah I know its shite. im still playing it though" from back before coagulating blood was made to be based off of max magicka and spell damage

That's what bothered me going all the way back to Elswyer changes. They didn't even try with the lore to the point they messed up Bosmer and Argonian racials in ESO's lore itself. I'm glad they fixed Argonians but Bosmer has been known for their stealth going alllllll the way back to Arena. So I guess the Rite of Theft is now 1 Bosmer trying to steal from all the others while they just watch and detect? I get where ZoS is coming from that stealth detection has to do with stealth, but it's wrong. it should be reversed since Khajiit had night eye but nobody deserves that passive only good in one game mode like pvp. I still feel annoyed with how they are handling Argonian, no race should be stuck as only support so they could cater to the Dunmer fans. Specially since Argonians were never a tank race in any TES game.

Ratzkifal · February 2021

This is the "justification" they gave us. Turn a proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting stealthed targets. Such a silly concept, especially if you consider that this detection passive rigs the information game against the Bosmer that's supposed to be better at detecting. It's just overall a bad passive to force upon someone. If it's optional (like it is in gear or CP), then everyone can decide if they want it or not, but now it has literally the same drawbacks that the stealth radius has but with no benefits and no basis in the lore.

Previously if you weren’t able to utilize Stealth, you lost a large portion of effectiveness that Wood Elves provided, so we’ve put the bulk of their power into their flat bonuses to Stamina and recovery. We also wanted to have more of a distinct play pattern on how Wood Elves and Khajiit both engaged with Stealth, so we’ve repurposed Wood Elves’ passive into one that deals with turning their proficiency of Stealth into a proficiency of hunting Stealthed targets. Additionally, since Stealth is not always engaged with at the same rate across the game, we added a small boon to when you activate Roll Dodge to help enhance mobility and offensive turning power in order to slip to safety or reposition for an unexpected attack.

IronWooshu · February 2021

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

BlueRaven · February 2021

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

There is more to eso then pvp. Stealth detection has absolutely no practical use in pve, stealth does.

(I am astonished about how so many pvp players seem to keep forgetting that pve exists.)

Ratzkifal · February 2021

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

Detection has the same drawbacks as stealth, only that detection has less uses, is quite buggy, helps your enemy if you are in stealth as well, and takes the spot for a more lore appropriate passive in the bonus budget.

JobooAGS · February 2021

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

Lore is actually a huge aspect of the game. Break the lore and you break the meaning of the game. Break the meaning of the game, you lose the fan base. Lose the fan base you lose money. The rp portion of the game is much bigger than you think at least in crown sales. Lose them you lose an important source of revenue.

Ratzkifal · February 2021

JobooAGS wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

Lore is actually a huge aspect of the game. Break the lore and you break the meaning of the game. Break the meaning of the game, you lose the fan base. Lose the fan base you lose money. The rp portion of the game is much bigger than you think at least in crown sales. Lose them you lose an important source of revenue.

If this game wasn't set in the Elder Scrolls universe it probably wouldn't have taken off like it has, without a preexisting audience and all...
So yeah, the lore is important.

anadandy · February 2021

BlueRaven wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

There is more to eso then pvp. Stealth detection has absolutely no practical use in pve, stealth does.

Emphasis mine

Again, there are two entire DLCs that revolve around stealth, sneaking and being unseen. Can you do them without Stealth? Of course but it sure is easier with it. I am very tired of the "Stealth is RP" argument.

Vevvev · February 2021

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

Back when Bosmer had stealth the AD was the stealth based faction since the largest demographics of their playerbase excelled at staying hidden. Added flavor to the game and gave you an idea of what to expect when you faced off against them.

And stealth radius reduction as people have pointed out is amazing in PVE, required in certain areas, and does help them in PVP since the stealth detection passive is actually broken in PVP. If someone is sneaking and trying to find you that stealth detection will reveal you to them long before you even noticed you're being hunted.

Edit: it'd actually be more appropriate in regards to lore to switch the Khajiit stealth passive and the Bosmer detection passive around since Khajiit have had night eye allowing them to see in the dark for a very long time.

Ratzkifal · February 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

Back when Bosmer had stealth the AD was the stealth based faction since the largest demographics of their playerbase excelled at staying hidden. Added flavor to the game and gave you an idea of what to expect when you faced off against them.

And stealth radius reduction as people have pointed out is amazing in PVE, required in certain areas, and does help them in PVP since the stealth detection passive is actually broken in PVP. If someone is sneaking and trying to find you that stealth detection will reveal you to them long before you even noticed you're being hunted.

Edit: it'd actually be more appropriate in regards to lore to switch the Khajiit stealth passive and the Bosmer detection passive around since Khajiit have had night eye allowing them to see in the dark for a very long time.

Would agree with you if you didn't suggest to switch detection and stealth passives from Khajiit and Bosmer. Nobody deserves having something useful be taken away from them only to have it replaced with detection. It might be more lore appropriate for Khajiit than it is for Bosmer, but it's not like Khajiit aren't stealthy as well.

QuebraRegra · February 2021

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

Back when Bosmer had stealth the AD was the stealth based faction since the largest demographics of their playerbase excelled at staying hidden. Added flavor to the game and gave you an idea of what to expect when you faced off against them.

And stealth radius reduction as people have pointed out is amazing in PVE, required in certain areas, and does help them in PVP since the stealth detection passive is actually broken in PVP. If someone is sneaking and trying to find you that stealth detection will reveal you to them long before you even noticed you're being hunted.

Edit: it'd actually be more appropriate in regards to lore to switch the Khajiit stealth passive and the Bosmer detection passive around since Khajiit have had night eye allowing them to see in the dark for a very long time.

Would agree with you if you didn't suggest to switch detection and stealth passives from Khajiit and Bosmer. Nobody deserves having something useful be taken away from them only to have it replaced with detection. It might be more lore appropriate for Khajiit than it is for Bosmer, but it's not like Khajiit aren't stealthy as well.

ZOS does not listen.. again and again. Bad decisions, and contra their own lore. No money for BLACKWOOD from me.

Ratzkifal · February 2021

QuebraRegra wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Bosmer have the worst passives in game, imo. They really need some love

I can't believe stealth reduction is a major breaking point still for Wood Elf players. Stealth has been bad for awhile, many ways to pull out a player from stealth.

Literally one pot in PVP would negate an entire racial passive if you still had it.

I think Wood Elves have great passives that actually help them. Stealth reduction literally helps them in no way except to appease the lore of Wood Elves.

Not a very practical passive to bring back IMO

Back when Bosmer had stealth the AD was the stealth based faction since the largest demographics of their playerbase excelled at staying hidden. Added flavor to the game and gave you an idea of what to expect when you faced off against them.

And stealth radius reduction as people have pointed out is amazing in PVE, required in certain areas, and does help them in PVP since the stealth detection passive is actually broken in PVP. If someone is sneaking and trying to find you that stealth detection will reveal you to them long before you even noticed you're being hunted.

Edit: it'd actually be more appropriate in regards to lore to switch the Khajiit stealth passive and the Bosmer detection passive around since Khajiit have had night eye allowing them to see in the dark for a very long time.

Would agree with you if you didn't suggest to switch detection and stealth passives from Khajiit and Bosmer. Nobody deserves having something useful be taken away from them only to have it replaced with detection. It might be more lore appropriate for Khajiit than it is for Bosmer, but it's not like Khajiit aren't stealthy as well.

ZOS does not listen.. again and again. Bad decisions, and contra their own lore. No money for BLACKWOOD from me.

It's funny. I was going through the old 89 page thread again recently for the new Feedback thread I made and since we didn't have a lot to discuss we were speculating on what ZOS' plans were for this. And we straight up called what is happening now two years ago.
They are making a new system that opens up stealth to more races (we thought it would be a new skill line, but it turns out it was CP2.0) and back then we made it clear that this does not solve the core issue unless Bosmer racials include stealth or get a bonus to that new system. Since Detection is in Fitness and stealth in Craft, you can't even argue that they save on those points and can reinvest them into stealth. It's quite clear that ZOS did not actually go through those 89 pages at all. Not that they would have needed to anyway, we made summary posts of all the arguments we've gathered whenever we weren't dealing with people telling us to "give up".