Potential items to improve the PvE experience in Cyrodiil/IC

spartaxoxo

Tabard

VaranisArano wrote: »

PVP is struggling primarily because persistent performance issues sap the will of players who love PVP to keep playing and make it that much harder for new players who like PVP to enjoy playing. And since that's an issue that started back when ZOS made dramatic code changes to counter cheaters, and since ZOS is still working on tests for performance fixes, its hard to agree that PVP is suffering because its insufficiently welcoming to players who don't really want to PVP in the first place.

They don't want to pvp because it's not fun. And one of the biggest reasons cited consistently is "I was there because I had to in order to do x pve thing, and couldn't get it done because of pvp"

It's not about deserve or risk or any of that. It's about psychology of gaming. People are less likely to enjoy things they feel forced into, and are even less likely if on top of being forced into it they don't have a good time.

Performance issues exist in pretty much any mmo out there as far as pvp goes. And people will put up with them if they have a good time. Right now, there is little way for new and inexperienced players to have a good time. These people have laid out how to fix it for them and I have seen other games move away from that type of reward structure for that reason to great success.

jle30303

No, PVP is not struggling because of performance issues. These things bother veterans. New players are bothered by the fact that, even if they try it, the chances are that they won't actually be able to ACHIEVE anything - i.e. kill another player - because of always getting thrown in among veterans.

Smitch_59

Other

I simply ignore Cyrodiil. PvP doesn't exist for me. Problem solved.

TequilaFire

Other

No it is a pvp zone.

VaranisArano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

PVP is struggling primarily because persistent performance issues sap the will of players who love PVP to keep playing and make it that much harder for new players who like PVP to enjoy playing. And since that's an issue that started back when ZOS made dramatic code changes to counter cheaters, and since ZOS is still working on tests for performance fixes, its hard to agree that PVP is suffering because its insufficiently welcoming to players who don't really want to PVP in the first place.

They don't want to pvp because it's not fun. And one of the biggest reasons cited consistently is "I was there because I had to in order to do x pve thing, and couldn't get it done because of pvp"

It's not about deserve or risk or any of that. It's about psychology of gaming. People are less likely to enjoy things they feel forced into, and are even less likely if on top of being forced into it they don't have a good time.

Performance issues exist in pretty much any mmo out there as far as pvp goes. And people will put up with them if they have a good time. Right now, there is little way for new and inexperienced players to have a good time. These people have laid out how to fix it for them and I have seen other games move away from that type of reward structure for that reason to great success.

I was speaking of the reasons why players who do like PVP and who do find it fun are struggling with continuing to play PVP.

Moreover, I find that "I was there because I had to in order to do x pve thing, and couldn't get it done because of pvp" is very indicative of players' mindsets. I do believe that they are sincere in their view of what happened because they view PvE as completely separate from PVP even in a zone designed and intended for PvPvE!

But if I restate that to more accurately reflect what happened, "I went to a PvPvE zone. I tried to do a thing ZOS intended to be done in a PvPvE zone. I couldn't, because the PvP that ZOS fully intended and designed for happened to me in a PvPvE zone." Then it starts to look a little more like "Well, what did you expect? You queued up for a PvPvE zone, not a regular PVE zone with no intended risk of PVP."

I find that a lot of casual or non-PVP players do not properly manage their expectations in a PvPvE zone, and it befuddles me. Whether its expecting that ZOS shouldn't celebrate PVP at all in a game that balances PVE and PVP together or expecting that Cyrodiil and IC should transform into PVP-free zones just for them during events (including the Anniversary Event when there are a multitude of other dailies available)...I supppse I do understand why players want to have their cake (get the event rewards) and eat it too (avoid risk of PVP). Its only human to want what we want without getting out of our comfort zone.

Starlight_Whisper

Sarannah wrote: »

None of those ideas should happen. This would imbalance the factions in those PvP areas, as they would have 'neutral' players hold a PvP player's spot.

If ZOS ever does something to aid PvE players in regards to PvP zones, they should simply make it a new zone with full PvE.

What I would like to see changed about the IC: Allow us to respawn in the district we died in, to remove the load to sewerbase and load to correct district loadings. And place ALL three alliance spawn spots the same distance from the flag in each district.

That would be very nice.

spartaxoxo

Tabard

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its only human to want what we want without getting out of our comfort zone.

It befuddles you because you're looking at it purely from your own pov, which is why you think this sums up the issue when it does not.

People are NOT questioning why something happened that was designed to happen, they are questioning why it's designed that way in the first place.

I have played other MMOs that were far more successful at attracting people into PvPvE by keeping things that casuals and newbies would want OUT of content where they interact a lot with veterans. They don't do this because it sets up the new player to feel forced into doing something they are doomed to fail at, and that's not a good design for enticing people into trying new things and stepping out of their comfort zone.

You don't tie those kinds of rewards into pvp. You give PvPvE it's own exclusive rewards that are either cosmetic or improve the experience of PvPvE. You also create some pvp system that is primarily designed at matching newbies with newbies OR give newbies some kind of noob cannon so they can get the occasional kill on a vet.

In this way people feel like they are opt-in and that they can actually do things in there. And when they can do that they are likely to explore more.

Merlin13KAGL

Other

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sure. Mark yourself safe from PVP in a PvPvE zone so you can quest and explore to your heart's content in safety. But there needs to be one additional effect.

"You get no AP, no event tickets, no leads, no loot, no quest rewards, no skyshards, and no achievements."

What? No rewards?!

Yeah! Why do you think you deserve rewards when you marked yourself safe from most of the intended risk of getting those rewards?

If you really just want to quest and explore, then you'll be happy to let those be their own reward. If you really want those other rewards after all, then what you are really asking for is the rewards of a PvPvE zone with none of the risk of PVP.


And giving the context of the event going on right now and the OP's comment that "yet again PVE players are struggling with the dailies"... I'm sorry, but players don't get to mark themselves safe from PVP and still reap the rewards of Midyear Mayhem, a celebration of all things PVP.

You want the rewards? You need to get them as intended - with the risk of PVP.

The entire point of this suggestion is to let pve people get their event tickets in imo, as that's an annual issue and drives a metric ton of people away from pvp. It's one of the biggest reasons PvP has received little new content since Morrowind, because new people joining is at a trickle. And a MASSIVE part of that is people participating in events having a disgustingly infuriating time and never stepping foot into pvp again.

This solution should change that. Agree about AP and Telvar, but the pve quests should still give their non-telvar rewards including event tickets. Skyshards should also be gettable.

If people couldn't get rare drops, telvar, ap, non-quest achievements that should be enough incentive to want to turn on pvp.

Its a PVP event taking place in a PvPvE zone. Why do you think you deserve event tickets after you turn off the intended risk of PvP?

Those skyshards are in a PvPvE zone. 4 of them require PvP actions on the part of your alliance to gain access. Why do you think you deserve skyshrds after you turn off the intended risk of PVP?

Those towns are PvPvE battle zones. 3 of them are capturapble transit points for their alliance. The other two are along scroll running routes. Their quests are short because of the risk of enemy players, and they sometimes involve delves, which grant an AP buff that's important for emperorship. Why do you think you deserve town quest rewards after you turn off the intended risk of PVP?


I see two reasons given:
1. New players will have a better introduction to PvPvE zones if they get the rewards they want with none of the risk they don't want. Or shorter, new players will have a great time if they don't actually have to deal with PVP in a PvPvE zone.
2. Look, I just want the event tickets, skyshards, and quest rewards without the risk of PvP, okay?

I already gave the reason, to make pvp an enjoyable experience you opt-in to for the chance of pvp exclusive rewards. Not something you feel forced into to get the kinds of minor rewards that you get everywhere else without trouble doing PvE.

I have seen other games have a healthier pvp base when people don't feel forced into it. Forcing people seldom works, enticing them and then rewarding them does better at making an activity more enjoyable.

But go ahead and cling to the skyshards and tickets for pvp, I guess. Just know that they are a big reason so few people want to pvp. They feel forced into their first experiences to get pve stuff done, have an absolutely horrendous time, and vow not to do it outside events. It's a metric ton of pve'ers with that experience.

You can toss the all the outrageous ad hominem you want about people being "entitled" but at the end of the day, if people aren't having fun they aren't gonna play the content. And if nobody plays that content, new stuff don't get added. It's that simple

They're choosing to travel a route during a parade and then wondering why traffic is slow?

No. Still not necessary.

Tank, stealth, bring 23 of your closest PvE friends, or x up in chat and follow any of a dozen groups doing the same thing.

IC is specifically hybrid for a reason. You don't get to build for just one aspect and expect to faceroll everything out there solo.

It's hardly an insurmountable obstacle here. Risk vs reward, the risk being a bit of your time and some of your stones. It's not like there's permadeath, you don't have to retrieve your belongings or lose them, and there is no real cost other than a little bit of hurt pride.

This won't inspire people to PvP any more than the current setup does. You don't get better by avoidance.

spartaxoxo

Tabard

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

This won't inspire people to PvP any more than the current setup does. You don't get better by avoidance.

Yeah it will because people tend to like things better when they don't feel forced

VaranisArano

spartaxoxo wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its only human to want what we want without getting out of our comfort zone.

It befuddles you because you're looking at it purely from your own pov, which is why you think this sums up the issue when it does not.

People are NOT questioning why something happened that was designed to happen, they are questioning why it's designed that way in the first place.

I have played other MMOs that were far more successful at attracting people into PvPvE by keeping things that casuals and newbies would want OUT of content where they interact a lot with veterans. They don't do this because it sets up the new player to feel forced into doing something they are doomed to fail at, and that's not a good design for enticing people into trying new things and stepping out of their comfort zone.

You don't tie those kinds of rewards into pvp. You give PvPvE it's own exclusive rewards that are either cosmetic or improve the experience of PvPvE. You also create some pvp system that is primarily designed at matching newbies with newbies OR give newbies some kind of noob cannon so they can get the occasional kill on a vet.

In this way people feel like they are opt-in and that they can actually do things in there. And when they can do that they are likely to explore more.

I guess that makes more sense if we are looking at how to completely redesign the PvPvE experience in ESO.

I've been approaching it from a different angle, one that's more concerned with how PvPvE was designed and intended, and how the Devs seem to treat it in events like Midyear Mayhem.

I'd also point out that PVP is far from the only area where the Devs utilize the "fear of missing out" and rewards to "force" players to do ALL the content. If we're going to redesign ESO's PVP so that players can opt-out of risk and opt-in when they want PVP exclusive rewards, perhaps it's worth taking a look at how ZOS locks other rewards behind PVE group content like dungeons and trials too.

I mean, if we're going to redesign the game so players don't feel "forced" to do content they don't like, why limit that to PVP?

(I kinda doubt a redesign will happen. If for no other reason than ZOS seems to be banking into using events to generate the "fear of missing out" to sell Chapters, DLCs, and boost their participation numbers. It doesn't really matter to them that Imperial City is a ghost town after the Double Tel Var goes away because they have a brand new circus Witches Festival setting up in a couple of weeks. Midyear Mayhem will generate Mayhem, then its time for new DLC hype and another Q1 event, while the regular PVPers lament that performance still sucks. The same is true of PVE zones - just look at the complaints about the balance of deserted dragon hunts and harrowstorms once the initial rush of players move on from those zones. The Devs aren't really treating ESO like they want to redesign old zones to last so much as they want to make sure players always have something to do.)

Emmagoldman

Other

Edaphon wrote: »

Other = none

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The entire point of this suggestion is to let pve people get their event tickets in imo, as that's an annual issue and drives a metric ton of people away from pvp.

No, it doesn't. Quite the opposite, actually.

Right? It literally has filled 4 new campaigns of people. Quantitatively its added more people.

Thechuckage

PvPvE in and of itself is a failed concept. You can run away from a boss and it will return to its area, players not so much. Same for gear, PvE setups never work against purpose built PvP builds. These zones are defacto PvP areas.

Removal of PvE objectives to be replaced with other rewards (cosmetics, consumables, gear *drops or vendors) could be used as incentives for player participation.

Also disagree with the OP on getting event tickets while ignoring the event. While a less punishing mode for PvP newbies would be welcome, maybe something based off alliance ranks.....dunno general spitball there.

The one thing I do advocate for is an additional IC campaign that is PvE only. Its a good quest chain and giving crafters easy access to the stations is a good thing IMO.

wolfbone

Maitsukas wrote: »

Yet again PvE players are struggling with getting dailies done, with them constantly being killed over and over again. Meanwhile I've been doing some thinking for possible additions to get the PvE players to enjoy questing a bit more:
1. Tabard of Neutrality (Cosmetic Slot)

Antiquity (Mythic, 5 pieces)
While wearing this item you are marked safe from other players in the Cyrodiil and Imperial City campaigns. All alliances can heal and resurrect you. Alliance Guards and Honor Guards will not attack you. You cannot use Siege Engines, Capture Keeps, Outposts, Resources, Towns and Imperial City Districts. You can only equip and un-equip it inside your Alliance Border Keeps, Alliance Sewer Base, outside of Cyrodiil and Imperial City.

2. Tome of Neutality (Interactable open world item, idea came from the Veteran Hard Mode Dungeon triggers.)

"This tome bears the insignia of the Imperial Legion and a potent spell. When invoked, the tome will make you appear as a regular citizen of Tamriel to the fighters of Cyrodiil." — Tome of Neutrality
Can be found next to the Border Keep Transitus Shrines and at your alliance's respawn shrine in the Imperial City Sewers.
Effect:
You are marked safe from other players in the Cyrodiil and Imperial City campaigns. All alliances can heal and resurrect you. Alliance Guards and Honor Guards will not attack you. You cannot use Siege Engines, Capture Keeps, Outposts, Resources, Towns and Imperial City Districts. You can only equip and un-equip it inside your Alliance Border Keeps, Alliance Sewer Base, outside of Cyrodiil and Imperial City.

3. Meal/Drink of Neutrality (Won't replace your buff-food)

Purchasable from Alliance vendors.
Effect:
You are marked safe from other players in the Cyrodiil and Imperial City campaigns. All alliances can heal and resurrect you. Alliance Guards and Honor Guards will not attack you. You cannot use Siege Engines, Capture Keeps, Outposts, Resources, Towns and Imperial City Districts. You can only equip and un-equip it inside your Alliance Border Keeps, Alliance Sewer Base, outside of Cyrodiil and Imperial City.

If these ideas are good or bad, leave a reply to discuss it further.

it's a pvp event. dont see why you think it should be changed to suit you just because you dont play pvp.

techyeshic

Other

This is not forced. People call rewards for PVPing forced. I have 0 tickets from PVE because I am not forced to do a damned thing.

And I am sure everyone wants players running around in a pop locked campaign wearing any item to make them quarter only and not contributing to the fight while locking out players who do.

Answer is no for this event and every future event, just like it was every past event.

Sephyr

Other

Keep it how it is.

Vorpan

It's PVP zones. Nothing about it should be changed.

Let them have their event. If you still want tickets, but want minimal PVP, then get creative and think outside the box. I'm not in the mood for PVP these days, but have managed to get my tickets and lots of boxes, and the only time I get bothered is when I encounter PVErs (who imo are the most toxic during MYM).

PVPers camping towns? Where? I keep seeing threads mentioning this. I've been playing every non-cp campaign on different alliances and have yet to see any such thing. They're busy at keeps where they are a lot more people to kill than the few PVErs running around a town. They don't care about towns unless they have a quest to capture the three.

renne

Other

Oh my god, just jump into a low population campaign - no coloured bars filled in - and you won't hardly even SEE a PvPer. It's not that hard, guys, that's why all the campaigns have those circular bars, not just to be pretty colours.

RedMuse

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

Other = none

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The entire point of this suggestion is to let pve people get their event tickets in imo, as that's an annual issue and drives a metric ton of people away from pvp.

No, it doesn't. Quite the opposite, actually.

Right? It literally has filled 4 new campaigns of people. Quantitatively its added more people.

Or it added more already pvp players on their alts who want to take them for a spin in a shorter campaign.

wolfbone

Maitsukas wrote: »

Yet again PvE players are struggling with getting dailies done, with them constantly being killed over and over again. Meanwhile I've been doing some thinking for possible additions to get the PvE players to enjoy questing a bit more:
1. Tabard of Neutrality (Cosmetic Slot)

Antiquity (Mythic, 5 pieces)
While wearing this item you are marked safe from other players in the Cyrodiil and Imperial City campaigns. All alliances can heal and resurrect you. Alliance Guards and Honor Guards will not attack you. You cannot use Siege Engines, Capture Keeps, Outposts, Resources, Towns and Imperial City Districts. You can only equip and un-equip it inside your Alliance Border Keeps, Alliance Sewer Base, outside of Cyrodiil and Imperial City.

2. Tome of Neutality (Interactable open world item, idea came from the Veteran Hard Mode Dungeon triggers.)

"This tome bears the insignia of the Imperial Legion and a potent spell. When invoked, the tome will make you appear as a regular citizen of Tamriel to the fighters of Cyrodiil." — Tome of Neutrality
Can be found next to the Border Keep Transitus Shrines and at your alliance's respawn shrine in the Imperial City Sewers.
Effect:
You are marked safe from other players in the Cyrodiil and Imperial City campaigns. All alliances can heal and resurrect you. Alliance Guards and Honor Guards will not attack you. You cannot use Siege Engines, Capture Keeps, Outposts, Resources, Towns and Imperial City Districts. You can only equip and un-equip it inside your Alliance Border Keeps, Alliance Sewer Base, outside of Cyrodiil and Imperial City.

3. Meal/Drink of Neutrality (Won't replace your buff-food)

Purchasable from Alliance vendors.
Effect:
You are marked safe from other players in the Cyrodiil and Imperial City campaigns. All alliances can heal and resurrect you. Alliance Guards and Honor Guards will not attack you. You cannot use Siege Engines, Capture Keeps, Outposts, Resources, Towns and Imperial City Districts. You can only equip and un-equip it inside your Alliance Border Keeps, Alliance Sewer Base, outside of Cyrodiil and Imperial City.

If these ideas are good or bad, leave a reply to discuss it further.

pve'ers get a lot of pve events, and content. wouldnt be fair on us to take away the small amounts of events and content we have just cos pve'er's dont like it.

Araneae6537

Other

No, for all the reasons stated. Join a group! Safety in numbers and you may even have fun!

Goregrinder

Other

I'd like the Tabard of Neutrality for Vet dungeons and Trials....make me immune to NPC's and bosses, but gave me the option to click each boss and force it to drop loot without actually attacking it. Seems fair to me.

highkingnm

Other

Here’s my item suggestion:

7 armour pieces with Impenetrable trait.

1 sword and board

1 resto staff

There you go, slot a heal and shield and you can now survive most people who just want easy AP from killing newbies (most of them aren’t that good) and do PvE. You can even get involved and help people, benefitting from the gold making opportunities of buying alliance war/battlegrounds motifs and experiencing PvP at its best if you do wish.

Chelo

jle30303 wrote: »

For me the problem with PVP - in any game that has it - isn't "new players are always dying", it's that "new players can't even kill". I mean, they don't even get to kill other new players because said kills are always being stolen by veterans. And if you can't *do* anything in PVP, then you don't want to PVP, which reduces the number of "weaker" players in PVP which means that weak players are always dumped in among a multitude of strong players with no option to play among others of their own skill and capability level.

Consider that in chess, you don't put newbies up against grandmasters in the same arena. You have carefully constructed tiers and rankings.

Devs don't care about a competitive PvP structure like mobas or any other PvP Game.

This should have Arenas like WoW, a real ranking system, leaderboards, seasons and PvP rewards at the end of every season.

In WoW there are PvP rewards from Arenas, you can get a title and a mount if you are top 10, other rewards for top 100, etc.

When people see you with that title, everybody on the server knows that you are the Apex Predator when it comes to PvP. It was super fun.

Imo Devs are wasting this Game, making it appeal only to the casual crowd or PvE people. The combat system of this game is wonderful for a competitive PvP approach.

The reason nobody does PvP in this game is because there's no unique PvP rewards here.

Put a Flying Dragon Mount as a PvP reward and I bet the ENTIRE server will collide in Cyrodill or BGs (or hopefully Arenas).

WiseSky

Other

I think that would remove the PVP from the PVP leaving:

spartaxoxo

Tabard

VaranisArano wrote: »

The Devs aren't really treating ESO like they want to redesign old zones to last so much as they want to make sure players always have something to do.)

I think they should change it so that the best pvp weapons come from pvp and not stuff like arenas. They are obviously designing things this way and I don't think it's good design, across the board.

That's why I'm for a story mode with nothing but quest rewards/achievements but not set drops or monster helms. I'm against any vet overland system that increased rewards but am in favor of a potion or something that gives a debuff for people that want to experience the story with some difficulty. I am for nerfing dragons and Harrowstorms too, as that's primarily content aimed at more casual players and it ends up a ghost zone after a new thing comes out or some odd weeks because it's not designed well for the people who want to play it.

In general I think it's better for content to be designed towards the people who want to consume that kind of content in the largest number, with lots of fun exclusive stuff to entice people into trying stepping outside their comfort zone.

I think doing things that way creates the most sustainable populations that keeps people enjoying new content but also being willing to go back to older content.

I feel like making people forced to try things instead of wanting to try things sabotages the likeliness of them sticking around.

Spawniaq

Other

vicious death + mechanical acuity + balorg

brings your PvE fun to another lvl in IC and Cyro

Alendrin

Other

What will improve the pvp experience of the 90% of events that are pve?

Ratzkifal

Other

Where is my tabbard/food/drink/tome that allows me to complete all my veteran hardmodes on my PvP setup without getting kicked? Because I am pretty sure that's where these neutrality items are as well.

BXR_Lonestar

Other

None of them are good ideas, unless you want to be targeted for repeated killing for just TRYING to have special rules that only apply to you. Its a PVP zone. You enter the zone, prepare to be killed, and if your careless, prepare to be killed a LOT.

If you don't want to fight people, then learn to be patient, learn to sneak, learn to use invisibility potions, work in groups so you can get revived if all else fails.

AlnilamE

Other

spartaxoxo wrote: »

You don't tie those kinds of rewards into pvp. You give PvPvE it's own exclusive rewards that are either cosmetic or improve the experience of PvPvE. You also create some pvp system that is primarily designed at matching newbies with newbies OR give newbies some kind of noob cannon so they can get the occasional kill on a vet.

It's called siege.

I don't know why people think PvP is only 1vXing people and beating them. Siege is the most fun part of PvP. And it does the same amount of damage regardless of your gear/experience.