15% Base Damage Reduction

MurderMostFoul

"Characters now also take 15% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system."

This change bothers me. It feels like a weird shoe-horning to just take 15% off the top of all damage received. I understand the intent, and obviously there needs to be a way to account for not having as many mitigation options in the CP system, but just granting everyone 15% flat damage reduction seems like a very blunt solution. There must be a more eloquent way to do this. Perhaps add passive damage reduction per level from 1 to 50? Anything to make this feel more refined would be nice.

VaranisArano

Where this confuses me is that the damage mitigation from CP shouldn't have applied in Below 50 PVP or No CP PVP, right?

So this is a big boost for brand new players playing in PVE and CP PVP, as it puts them on an equal level with players on low level alts with CP boosts.

But lots of players like No CP PVP after level 50 because they don't get the extra resources, sustain, and mitigation from Champion points. So if those boosts are getting added to the base characters, doesn't that sort of miss part of the point of No CP PVP? Sure, you can't use the CP stars and passives, still, but not having those extra stats were a part of building and playing in No CP too.


Admittedly, I don't play much No CP PVP aside from the occasional battleground. My jam is CP PVP, so I think this will be a boost for new players who go to my favored campaigns. So maybe players who regularly play No CP have a different take on the impact, and I'll be glad to here it.

Firstmep

VaranisArano wrote: »

Where this confuses me is that the damage mitigation from CP shouldn't have applied in Below 50 PVP or No CP PVP, right?

So this is a big boost for brand new players playing in PVE and CP PVP, as it puts them on an equal level with players on low level alts with CP boosts.

But lots of players like No CP PVP after level 50 because they don't get the extra resources, sustain, and mitigation from Champion points. So if those boosts are getting added to the base characters, doesn't that sort of miss part of the point of No CP PVP? Sure, you can't use the CP stars and passives, still, but not having those extra stats were a part of building and playing in No CP too.


Admittedly, I don't play much No CP PVP aside from the occasional battleground. My jam is CP PVP, so I think this will be a boost for new players who go to my favored campaigns. So maybe players who regularly play No CP have a different take on the impact, and I'll be glad to here it.

Well no cp pvp isnt much different from cp these days. 40k hp heavy armor blockdens are everywhere, perma misting mag toons etc. Its all the same.
That being said the 15% mit and the extra hp in no cp is going to make an already boring meta even worse..

Dracane

During my testing, it was shown that damage was reduced by 16,5% actually, not just 15%.
The 1000 spell/weapon damage offered as a compensation (to keep pvp damage similar) does not even come close to either 15% or even 16,5% even after modifiers.

And I agree with OP, it's strange to randomly give everyone 15% damage mitigation that can not be seen somewhere. A more logical approach would have been to give everyone base armor instead. Explaining to a new player that some patch just gave everyone invisible 15% damage mitigation, would be strange.

Granting everyone 9900 armor (15%) could be more elegant. If we put aside sets that grant something based on your armor, of course.

OlumoGarbag

the other attempt could be, that they flat out lower every damage source in the game by 15% but that would mean they have to rewrite all the set, monster and player ability numbers.

So while this seems weird, its still the better way to make choosing cp and lvling a better expirience.

As a non-cp pvp player i like the idea, since proc sets are dominating non-cp pvp way way way way more then cp pvp.
Giving everyone more proc damage reduction and more skill damage lowers proc damage potential by a small amount.

Further steps need to be taken to end this trash tank proc meta, but its definetly a step in the right direction.

MurderMostFoul

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

the other attempt could be, that they flat out lower every damage source in the game by 15% but that would mean they have to rewrite all the set, monster and player ability numbers.

100% agree.

Obviously taking 15% damage off of all damage sources in the game would be a much bigger lift. But it makes a heck of a lot more sense than just saying, "Hey, you're going to take damage from a whole bunch of stuff in this game, but don't worry, the first 15% of it doesn't matter."

MentalxHammer

The main issue with the 15% mitigation will lie in no CP pvp. Obviously in no CP you wont have access to damage CP, but we will all have the 15% mitigation to make up for loss of defensive CP. This will raise the time to kill drastically in no CP environments.

One of the great parts of no CP pvp is the fast paced nature of the combat. Now no CP will seem slower than even CP combat, as we will all have defensive benefits (15% mit) but no offensive benefits.

sweatapodimas

God this is terrible, no one will die lol

CleymenZero

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

"Characters now also take 15% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system."

This change bothers me. It feels like a weird shoe-horning to just take 15% off the top of all damage received. I understand the intent, and obviously there needs to be a way to account for not having as many mitigation options in the CP system, but just granting everyone 15% flat damage reduction seems like a very blunt solution. There must be a more eloquent way to do this. Perhaps add passive damage reduction per level from 1 to 50? Anything to make this feel more refined would be nice.

There are many ways to achieve balancing of damage intake VS old CP system but the method does not really matter.

Make the enemies do 15% less damage, reduce damage taken. No matter.

Just consider that these changes are made to make the game more friendly to the new players and the less-skilled veteran players.

Would a damage reduction increasing from 1 to 50 be friendly to new players? Nope.

Your proposition would need to consider that very important matter.

MurderMostFoul

MentalxHammer wrote: »

The main issue with the 15% mitigation will lie in no CP pvp. Obviously in no CP you wont have access to damage CP, but we will all have the 15% mitigation to make up for loss of defensive CP. This will raise the time to kill drastically in no CP environments.

One of the great parts of no CP pvp is the fast paced nature of the combat. Now no CP will seem slower than even CP combat, as we will all have defensive benefits (15% mit) but no offensive benefits.

I truly hope that the meta will shift to building for damage. Seeing as it won't be as important to invest in defensive sets/stats, hopefully we can get away with building for damage and actually keep the time to kill reasonable in no CP.

MurderMostFoul

CleymenZero wrote: »

Just consider that these changes are made to make the game more friendly to the new players and the less-skilled veteran players.

Would a damage reduction increasing from 1 to 50 be friendly to new players? Nope.

Your proposition would need to consider that very important matter.

Sorry, I'm not following the point you're making here.

WrathOfInnos

It is strange to see this for no-CP PvP. Everywhere else it makes sense because most builds in the original CP system had 22-24% mitigation from Ironclad/Thick-skinned and another 11-13% from Hardy/Elemental Defender for a total of around 35% mitigation from CPs. The new system only allows up to 20% mitigation, so this flat bonus of 15% is there to make up the difference.

Giving an armor bonus wouldn’t have the same effect because tanks get nothing out of additional armor after hitting the cap if 33k. Flat mitigation helps everyone equally.

StarOfElyon

yeah, honestly I have a problem with this and the extra health everyone is going to be getting. It gives me a sense of "stat inflation". It's not a solution to a problem (whatever that problem was supposed to be). It will only make the tank-canon meta worse.

the1andonlyskwex

I think the point of this change (and the relatively large increase in base HP) is to ensure that endgame PvE is still doable without 2500+ CP. On live, we generally get a bunch of mitigation passives from CP, but on the PTS you need to choose between damage and mitigation until you can afford to max out both at very high CP.

Unfortunately, the way the change is currently implemented on the PTS, it doesn't make any sense in PvP, where it's going to make everyone much tankier in no CP, while doing nothing to alleviate the need for 2500+ CP to be competitive in CP, where all stats are important for everybody.

Furthermore, even in PvE, the higher end guilds are going to want people with maxed out CP because the extra survivability people get will lighten the load on healers, allowing them to spec harder into buffs and damage for faster clears.

jaws343

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

the other attempt could be, that they flat out lower every damage source in the game by 15% but that would mean they have to rewrite all the set, monster and player ability numbers.

100% agree.

Obviously taking 15% damage off of all damage sources in the game would be a much bigger lift. But it makes a heck of a lot more sense than just saying, "Hey, you're going to take damage from a whole bunch of stuff in this game, but don't worry, the first 15% of it doesn't matter."

Can't really take 15% damage off skills because the 15% damage mit doesn't get added to PVE enemies. So players having more defense doesn't change the pve offensive power. But knocking 15% off of damage skills would impact pve in a way having more mitigation doesn't.

virtus753

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It is strange to see this for no-CP PvP. Everywhere else it makes sense because most builds in the original CP system had 22-24% mitigation from Ironclad/Thick-skinned and another 11-13% from Hardy/Elemental Defender for a total of around 35% mitigation from CPs. The new system only allows up to 20% mitigation, so this flat bonus of 15% is there to make up the difference.

Giving an armor bonus wouldn’t have the same effect because tanks get nothing out of additional armor after hitting the cap if 33k. Flat mitigation helps everyone equally.

Is the 20% from the new system the max only in PvE, or is there a way to get it in CP PvP too?

I see the 5% from Hardy and Ele Aegis in the center minimage, which will work in PvP, but the bottom node applies only to damage from non-players and is also suffering from a typo: it gives 3% per stage but maxes out at 10% for all 5 stages. That would be 15-20% total in PvE, depending on how it’s bugged, but still only 5% in PvP.

I may well be missing where to get the rest of the mitigation for CP PvP. As of now I can only see 5% from Hardy/EA, so add in the 15% base reduction for a 20% cap, down from that 35% you cited under the old system.

That would seem to increase the mitigation in no-CP by 15% but decrease it in CP PvP by the same.

exeeter702

I know this is a bit of a broad point, and I realize the importance of having a longer progression path post level cap for this genre, but I wonder how much better (or worse) it would be to substantially slow down the leveling process from 1 to 50, cap gear at 50 (no cp160 gear), adjust crafting mat level ranges, and give players 72 cp per level (24x3) and do away with no cp pvp.

The new cp system is clearly re distributing and in some ways restricting, power. It's already clear the system is modular and is far easier to expand upon than the previous cp system while still being able to avoid power creep with the passives slots in place.

danno8

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It is strange to see this for no-CP PvP. Everywhere else it makes sense because most builds in the original CP system had 22-24% mitigation from Ironclad/Thick-skinned and another 11-13% from Hardy/Elemental Defender for a total of around 35% mitigation from CPs. The new system only allows up to 20% mitigation, so this flat bonus of 15% is there to make up the difference.

Giving an armor bonus wouldn’t have the same effect because tanks get nothing out of additional armor after hitting the cap if 33k. Flat mitigation helps everyone equally.

Why not just change the scaling of armour then?

Why not change the formula so 33000 armour is 60 or 65% cap instead of the current 50%. Makes way more sense and everyone will get a boost in nearly the same way.

Instead of 660 being 1% of armour it would be around 500 for the same 1%.

I don't like the "your skin provides 15% mitigation" logic.

MashmalloMan

exeeter702 wrote: »

I know this is a bit of a broad point, and I realize the importance of having a longer progression path post level cap for this genre, but I wonder how much better (or worse) it would be to substantially slow down the leveling process from 1 to 50, cap gear at 50 (no cp160 gear), adjust crafting mat level ranges, and give players 72 cp per level (24x3) and do away with no cp pvp.

The new cp system is clearly re distributing and in some ways restricting, power. It's already clear the system is modular and is far easier to expand upon than the previous cp system while still being able to avoid power creep with the passives slots in place.

I quite like the new system so I disagree with giving players 72 cp per level, but maybe you can ellaborate on that..

However cp 1 vs 160 gear is very confusing for new players and frankly makes no sense, it's only there because of the previous vet ranks being capped to 16. I'd be happy to see those items replaced to just level 50 like you stated.

With the new system and curve adjustment, I imagine it will take a few hours, if that with enlightenment to level from 1-160cp anyway. I think this not only complicates the game, but adds a ton of useless junk in between, crafting mats, gear, potions, you name it. Things that appear as "level 50" but are really like level 47 because they're cp50 or 100.

I've actually mistakenly bought a very expensive item thinking it was cp 160, but it was cp 150 prompting me to destroy it for all the money I wasted being scammed. I'm sure most players have made that mistake by now.

ExistingRug61

danno8 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It is strange to see this for no-CP PvP. Everywhere else it makes sense because most builds in the original CP system had 22-24% mitigation from Ironclad/Thick-skinned and another 11-13% from Hardy/Elemental Defender for a total of around 35% mitigation from CPs. The new system only allows up to 20% mitigation, so this flat bonus of 15% is there to make up the difference.

Giving an armor bonus wouldn’t have the same effect because tanks get nothing out of additional armor after hitting the cap if 33k. Flat mitigation helps everyone equally.

Why not just change the scaling of armour then?

Why not change the formula so 33000 armour is 60 or 65% cap instead of the current 50%. Makes way more sense and everyone will get a boost in nearly the same way.

Instead of 660 being 1% of armour it would be around 500 for the same 1%.

I don't like the "your skin provides 15% mitigation" logic.

Yeah the 15% seems really arbitrary and tacked on.

Changing armour could be an alternative, although rather than changing scaling (which would disproportionately favour high armour builds while low armour builds get little) another alternative would be to add base armour, say 9900 (15%) and then change the cap from 33000 to something like 39600 (60%). This would mean with no armour you now have 15% reduction, and being at the cap now potentially means a relative reduction of 20% (changing from 50% reduction to 60%).

Basically achieves a very similar thing, but works within the existing systems and doesn’t add another layer of calculation over the top that’s just an arbitrary band aid.

sabresandiego_ESO

From my testing this 15% is not active in pvp with battle spirit. I tested Valium skoria and it hit for the correct value in a duel factoring battle spirit, malacath, and armor/pen values. There was no additional 15% reduction.

Did you guys actually test this in pvp or are you theory crafting?

MurderMostFoul

jaws343 wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

the other attempt could be, that they flat out lower every damage source in the game by 15% but that would mean they have to rewrite all the set, monster and player ability numbers.

100% agree.

Obviously taking 15% damage off of all damage sources in the game would be a much bigger lift. But it makes a heck of a lot more sense than just saying, "Hey, you're going to take damage from a whole bunch of stuff in this game, but don't worry, the first 15% of it doesn't matter."

Can't really take 15% damage off skills because the 15% damage mit doesn't get added to PVE enemies. So players having more defense doesn't change the pve offensive power. But knocking 15% off of damage skills would impact pve in a way having more mitigation doesn't.

Just reduce all PVE sources of damage to characters by 15%, and make up the difference in PVP by adjusting battle spirit.

sabresandiego_ESO

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

the other attempt could be, that they flat out lower every damage source in the game by 15% but that would mean they have to rewrite all the set, monster and player ability numbers.

100% agree.

Obviously taking 15% damage off of all damage sources in the game would be a much bigger lift. But it makes a heck of a lot more sense than just saying, "Hey, you're going to take damage from a whole bunch of stuff in this game, but don't worry, the first 15% of it doesn't matter."

Can't really take 15% damage off skills because the 15% damage mit doesn't get added to PVE enemies. So players having more defense doesn't change the pve offensive power. But knocking 15% off of damage skills would impact pve in a way having more mitigation doesn't.

Just reduce all PVE sources of damage to characters by 15%, and make up the difference in PVP by adjusting battle spirit.

The 15% already isn’t working in pvp from my simple Balkan skoria test. Try it yourself. I think everyone in this thread isn’t actually testing but instead just theory crafting.

Maybe the 15% reduction is already factored into the damage tooltips on the attacker?

MurderMostFoul

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

the other attempt could be, that they flat out lower every damage source in the game by 15% but that would mean they have to rewrite all the set, monster and player ability numbers.

100% agree.

Obviously taking 15% damage off of all damage sources in the game would be a much bigger lift. But it makes a heck of a lot more sense than just saying, "Hey, you're going to take damage from a whole bunch of stuff in this game, but don't worry, the first 15% of it doesn't matter."

Can't really take 15% damage off skills because the 15% damage mit doesn't get added to PVE enemies. So players having more defense doesn't change the pve offensive power. But knocking 15% off of damage skills would impact pve in a way having more mitigation doesn't.

Just reduce all PVE sources of damage to characters by 15%, and make up the difference in PVP by adjusting battle spirit.

The 15% already isn’t working in pvp from my simple Balkan skoria test. Try it yourself. I think everyone in this thread isn’t actually testing but instead just theory crafting

Lol, on console, all I can do is theory craft, but,

"Characters now also take 15% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system,"

sounds universal. I'd feel a lot better if this wasn't active in PvP. But even if that's the case, the 15% is still weird and tacked on seeming.

exeeter702

MashmalloMan wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

I know this is a bit of a broad point, and I realize the importance of having a longer progression path post level cap for this genre, but I wonder how much better (or worse) it would be to substantially slow down the leveling process from 1 to 50, cap gear at 50 (no cp160 gear), adjust crafting mat level ranges, and give players 72 cp per level (24x3) and do away with no cp pvp.

The new cp system is clearly re distributing and in some ways restricting, power. It's already clear the system is modular and is far easier to expand upon than the previous cp system while still being able to avoid power creep with the passives slots in place.

I quite like the new system so I disagree with giving players 72 cp per level, but maybe you can ellaborate on that..

However cp 1 vs 160 gear is very confusing for new players and frankly makes no sense, it's only there because of the previous vet ranks being capped to 16. I'd be happy to see those items replaced to just level 50 like you stated.

With the new system and curve adjustment, I imagine it will take a few hours, if that with enlightenment to level from 1-160cp anyway. I think this not only complicates the game, but adds a ton of useless junk in between, crafting mats, gear, potions, you name it. Things that appear as "level 50" but are really like level 47 because they're cp50 or 100.

I've actually mistakenly bought a very expensive item thinking it was cp 160, but it was cp 150 prompting me to destroy it for all the money I wasted being scammed. I'm sure most players have made that mistake by now.

Not much to elaborate on. Provide cp through leveling and at lvl 50 you have 3600 points of cp spent. This results in unifying pvp at level cap amongst all players at the cost of less time sink post cp160 for new players.

Starlight_Whisper

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

"Characters now also take 15% reduced damage at base, to reduce the loss of the mitigation from the Champion Point system."

This change bothers me. It feels like a weird shoe-horning to just take 15% off the top of all damage received. I understand the intent, and obviously there needs to be a way to account for not having as many mitigation options in the CP system, but just granting everyone 15% flat damage reduction seems like a very blunt solution. There must be a more eloquent way to do this. Perhaps add passive damage reduction per level from 1 to 50? Anything to make this feel more refined would be nice.

This is pretty good actually so non cp high players aren't struggling. Let me tell you co 160 below tanks need this.

Emma_Overload

I'm pretty sure the reason they did this was so they wouldn't have to rebalance a ton of content. In other words, it's for developer benefit, not player benefit.

Firstmep

Dracane wrote: »

During my testing, it was shown that damage was reduced by 16,5% actually, not just 15%.
The 1000 spell/weapon damage offered as a compensation (to keep pvp damage similar) does not even come close to either 15% or even 16,5% even after modifiers.

And I agree with OP, it's strange to randomly give everyone 15% damage mitigation that can not be seen somewhere. A more logical approach would have been to give everyone base armor instead. Explaining to a new player that some patch just gave everyone invisible 15% damage mitigation, would be strange.

Granting everyone 9900 armor (15%) could be more elegant. If we put aside sets that grant something based on your armor, of course.

1k spell and wpd will also massively boost heals in no cp, on top of that we get a bunch free hp Stam and mag as well.
I wonder if with all the free stats we're given, procs might be a bit more bearable in no cp next patch.

Dracane

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

From my testing this 15% is not active in pvp with battle spirit. I tested Valium skoria and it hit for the correct value in a duel factoring battle spirit, malacath, and armor/pen values. There was no additional 15% reduction.

Did you guys actually test this in pvp or are you theory crafting?

I tested it against monster in the imperial city without any gear equipped. Testing it against players is quite futile, since we have received over 1k spell and weapon damage to make damage relatively even.

I will test it with proc sets as well though. This did not occur to me, because I took their word for it.
I would assume something could have gone wrong in your testing, because this damage reduction should be active unconditionally. Otherwise, it's probably a bug and can be submitted.

Dracane

Firstmep wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

During my testing, it was shown that damage was reduced by 16,5% actually, not just 15%.
The 1000 spell/weapon damage offered as a compensation (to keep pvp damage similar) does not even come close to either 15% or even 16,5% even after modifiers.

And I agree with OP, it's strange to randomly give everyone 15% damage mitigation that can not be seen somewhere. A more logical approach would have been to give everyone base armor instead. Explaining to a new player that some patch just gave everyone invisible 15% damage mitigation, would be strange.

Granting everyone 9900 armor (15%) could be more elegant. If we put aside sets that grant something based on your armor, of course.

1k spell and wpd will also massively boost heals in no cp, on top of that we get a bunch free hp Stam and mag as well.
I wonder if with all the free stats we're given, procs might be a bit more bearable in no cp next patch.

They would be slightly more tolerable, yes. Dealing damage in general should become harder though. People have more ressources to work with and light armor also encourages a dodge monkey playstyle now. So even Denaeryyss of Daggerfall can now spam roll dodge on her healer templar.

Add to that massive health and healing and fights should become pretty boring if nothing changes.

sabresandiego_ESO

Is the 15% dmg reduction baked into the attackers tooltip? That would make sense because I tested Balkan skoria which had a 9k tooltip on the attacking testers screen and it hit me for exactly what it should after malacath, battlespirit, and armor/pen values. This means if the 15% reduction is active perhaps it’s baked into the tooltip already?