just hard cap health

Fawn4287

Werewolfs, wardens, DKs, necros or just about anyone running around with 40k+ health whilst still hitting 4k+ Spammables or 6k+ heavy attacks whilst hitting 10k+ crit on instant cast heals are never going to be balanced appropriately, thats just the reality of having both PvE and PvP balanced together. The easy fix is to hard cap health in PvP since really nothing that benefits the game in terms of balance of performance has ever comes out of high health pool tanks. Until the promised fixes and balances (which are never happening) its better the devs apply fast blanket fixes than let game sit stagnant and borderline unplayable, plagued by builds like this for months and years.

[Edited title to remove Bashing]

Bergzorn

Yes, I approve of a health hard cap of 22k HP in no cp Cyrodiil.

Stahlor

Another solution would be damage and speed penalties for heavy armor/high health.

Jierdanit

Bergzorn wrote: »

Yes, I approve of a health hard cap of 22k HP in no cp Cyrodiil.

22k seems quite low tbh.

I think about 25k - 28k would be better as a health cap for noncp since otherwise everyone is just going to die in a few seconds because you if you cant get tankier anyways everyone is just going to run around with a 22k hp cap and as much damage as possible on top of it.

relentless_turnip

I can't see people running high health outside of the current meta. It is only possible at the moment because you don't need to invest in offensive stats. I think all of my characters have at least 25k health in cp PvP, but none have even 30k health... I refuse to run proc sets and as such have to actually invest in offensive stats to kill those that do. I would like to see proc sets scale with offensive stats and then see how it plays out. I suspect high health wouldn't be an issue anymore.

Raegwyr

Just force procs to scale with max offensive stat so it would be profitable to use one proc on dd, not 3 proc on 40k hp, 33k resists warden. How hard is that? And buff light/medium in terms of damage. The problem is not hp but facts that you can kill multiple ppl with proc while staying tanky af

Fawn4287

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I can't see people running high health outside of the current meta. It is only possible at the moment because you don't need to invest in offensive stats. I think all of my characters have at least 25k health in cp PvP, but none have even 30k health... I refuse to run proc sets and as such have to actually invest in offensive stats to kill those that do. I would like to see proc sets scale with offensive stats and then see how it plays out. I suspect high health wouldn't be an issue anymore.

The last 18 months was actually just a break from the high health heavy armour meta, for years and years the meta was sevenths, fury, ravager etc. prior to that it was reactive, black rose etc. this update is now crimson, eternal vigor coupled with CP crit nerfs which has been worsened further by malacath giving substantial damage to builds running 1 front bar damage set and the regen buffs making heavy sustain easier than ever, allowing people to stack absolutely everything else in to health and boost their health based heals.

Dracane

They must restore the original game idea. I have no problem with people stacking health. Though originally, those people had no damage and tended to have bad healing because they had no stats. Only Dragonknights and Templars were able to do it properly.

Now there is more and more easy healing options with health recovery, sets as well as high, unconditional damage. I want those times where high health gave you immediate burst resistence, but at a price. Now there is absolutely no tradeoff for stacking it with heavy armor.

I think a health cap is only a band aid fix, since by original design, it was well balanced. At this point, I must spitefully admit, I wish proc sets would be a pve only thing, with perhaps a few exceptions. Pvp will never be balanced unless we see a blanket nerf. Simply letting them scale with offensive stats, would only shift the issue. When damage builds can have proc sets as they are + high ability damage, people would again be forced to stack health to have any chance to survive.

And everyone knows, pvpers in ESO do not want to kill, no. They only ever want to survive.

Thraben

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I can't see people running high health outside of the current meta. It is only possible at the moment because you don't need to invest in offensive stats.

There has been a steady increase of average health in Cyro over the past 5 years. People will not suddenly stop being tanky.

jaws343

The problem with a health cap is it just becomes the health standard. If the cap is 25K, everyone will be running 25k health across the board.

The problem is the way procs work, not high health. A 60K health tank with no proc sets is just a meatbag standing in your way. Effective in some defensive situations, but not really lethal on their own. High health is not the problem. Procs not scaling and procs stacking is the problem.

katorga

Proc sets become proportionally more powerful as health goes down.

Bergzorn

Jierdanit wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Yes, I approve of a health hard cap of 22k HP in no cp Cyrodiil.

22k seems quite low tbh.

I think about 25k - 28k would be better as a health cap for noncp since otherwise everyone is just going to die in a few seconds because you if you cant get tankier anyways everyone is just going to run around with a 22k hp cap and as much damage as possible on top of it.

The only reason I suggested 22k HP is that I'm running around with 21.8somthing k HP and I'm to lazy to change my build ;-)

SgtNuttzmeg

Reducing damage of procs or players won't curtail this issue. People will still build this way, fights will just tend to stalemate more frequently. What we need is a cap on health, a rework of wws where they get less survivability and a little bit more damage, a rework of the vampire ultimate and a rework of the Goliath ultimate.

Something they also need to consider is how difficult it is to build a heavy armor warden and keep your health below 30k with minor toughness.

dcmgti

I also think Malacath is an offender here. I think changing Malacath to only affect class abilities would be a step in the right direction. And I'm in no way a Malacath hater, I run it on a few builds. The "downside" to Malacath is pointless in pvp in my opinion since crit scales so poorly in pvp. Really only one class makes use of crit builds and that's Nightblade. I would love to do a crit magplar or stamplar but to get crit high enough to match the damage of Malacath I feel it would be pretty squishy while lacking anything close to what keeps nightblades alive in a fight.

Jsmalls

@Dracane

First I'd like to say I'm an advocate for health hard cap.

That being said...
I do like @Dracane 's analysis of this issue. Previously 40k health meant it would just take longer to kill them, not that it would be impossible. And removing a playstyle from players is never something I want specifically to pursue...

However, I feel as if, in order to protect the PvE side of high health tanks, having a battle spirit health card cap would be the lesser of two evils. At least in my eyes... We will never get a separation of PvP/PvE skills I've come to term with that. So nerfing health based heals or healing sets would directly destroy both sides of tanking.

As far as being a band aid fix... Its very possible. The community always find a way. 35k health and 30k resists may change to 25k health and 40k resists. Then that 25k health may feel like 35k still, and we'll still see the same problem (I know there is a hard cap on resistance, but resistances over hard cap still apply after attackers penetration has been calculated).

But I think it's worth a shot. Console PvP isn't the most populated thing out there, but a hardcore PvP server with a health cap I think would be the best of all worlds, and a good test at minimum.

I would also like to bring this tidbit up since it's very much relevant.

As a Mag Sorcerer I am capable of running with 23k health because I can hide behind 30k in wards. Of course I'm wearing light armor underneath, and if you get past my shields I go down very easily. But it has been brought up to me that I hold a bias for a health cap because of this (it doesn't change my playstyle).

I'd like other opinions on the balance/over tuned reality of damage shields in a PvP with health caps.

erio

Fix health scaling for skills in pvp, Make it not go past 28k or something

SgtNuttzmeg

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Dracane

First I'd like to say I'm an advocate for health hard cap.

That being said...
I do like @Dracane 's analysis of this issue. Previously 40k health meant it would just take longer to kill them, not that it would be impossible. And removing a playstyle from players is never something I want specifically to pursue...

However, I feel as if, in order to protect the PvE side of high health tanks, having a battle spirit health card cap would be the lesser of two evils. At least in my eyes... We will never get a separation of PvP/PvE skills I've come to term with that. So nerfing health based heals or healing sets would directly destroy both sides of tanking.

As far as being a band aid fix... Its very possible. The community always find a way. 35k health and 30k resists may change to 25k health and 40k resists. Then that 25k health may feel like 35k still, and we'll still see the same problem (I know there is a hard cap on resistance, but resistances over hard cap still apply after attackers penetration has been calculated).

But I think it's worth a shot. Console PvP isn't the most populated thing out there, but a hardcore PvP server with a health cap I think would be the best of all worlds, and a good test at minimum.

I would also like to bring this tidbit up since it's very much relevant.

As a Mag Sorcerer I am capable of running with 23k health because I can hide behind 30k in wards. Of course I'm wearing light armor underneath, and if you get past my shields I go down very easily. But it has been brought up to me that I hold a bias for a health cap because of this (it doesn't change my playstyle).

I'd like other opinions on the balance/over tuned reality of damage shields in a PvP with health caps.

The other problem with overly tanky characters is they tend to make combat stalemate. This of course doesn't help performance.

Hotdog_23

Don’t see ZOS adding anything to battlespirit. Sure, they have and will adjust values it already uses just don’t see them adding a health cap or anything like that to it.

Don’t forget that the changes done to proc sets was to make thing easier for the servers as in less calculations. So, any idea on how to fix the problem needs to do so without increasing server load. Which is why I don’t think anything will be added to battlespirit.

Stay safe and have fun

relentless_turnip

I really don't think capping health is the answer. It limits support roles even further in PvP. I have a guy in my guild that has a functional PvP tank and he does no damage, he just absorbs it for everyone else.

High health isn't the core problem anyway it is a side effect of damage scaling. Proc sets especially allow the user to have no offensive stats, but have crazy survivability with high damage too. In a high stat meta you couldn't stack much health and still kill competent players.

Jierdanit

Bergzorn wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Yes, I approve of a health hard cap of 22k HP in no cp Cyrodiil.

22k seems quite low tbh.

I think about 25k - 28k would be better as a health cap for noncp since otherwise everyone is just going to die in a few seconds because you if you cant get tankier anyways everyone is just going to run around with a 22k hp cap and as much damage as possible on top of it.

The only reason I suggested 22k HP is that I'm running around with 21.8somthing k HP and I'm to lazy to change my build ;-)

Youre playing magsorc right? ^^

Fawn4287

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I really don't think capping health is the answer. It limits support roles even further in PvP. I have a guy in my guild that has a functional PvP tank and he does no damage, he just absorbs it for everyone else.

High health isn't the core problem anyway it is a side effect of damage scaling. Proc sets especially allow the user to have no offensive stats, but have crazy survivability with high damage too. In a high stat meta you couldn't stack much health and still kill competent players.

That is a major issue, PvP has 1 battlegrounds mode with the incentive to put out high damage with there being far more incentives to survive and capture, objectives, towns, keeps and resources. Utility builds have been incredibly overperforming as CP has continued to creep, now healers can build disgustingly tanky with all their healing power coming from CP, tanks get all their debuffs from sets, ultimates and CP not from skills which allows them to stack health and block cost reduction. Even being able to pop a immov pot and res a 60k health tank that it takes the damage of 10 people to kill, these builds should be stuck walking from the gate back to fights.

caperb

High health isn't the problem at least on solo and smallscale builds. The problem is defensive skills scaling with health and offensive proc sets getting boosted by malacath and penetration. These two scaling mechanics assure there is no reason to theorycraft a build, killing build diversity and promoting the tank meta.

Waffennacht

@Jsmalls unless they changed it back you should be limited to 11.5 shields

At 23k health they are capped then halved.

So first shield max is 11.5 (before BS) then down to 5.75.

The markarth update changed when shields got halved. Did they revert this?

Jsmalls

@Waffennacht
They changed it to 60% of your max health, which mine as well been reverting it. I run about 24k health so .6 is 14.4k damage shield which is about where I'm sitting at for my hardened ward.
Don't get me wrong I appreciate the revert to increase their strength. Makes my setup stronger.

Edit: Missed part of your post. That's not how it gets calculated. The halving doesn't account for your max health. So it takes your theoretical shield size 29k before health %, then it halves that. To 14.5k, then if your health isn't high enough it'll drop that value down accordingly.

Honestly if it was the way you posted I'd have quit Mag Sorc instantly 6k shield is unplayable, and I certainly will never be slotting twilight on both bars.

Waffennacht

.

jaws343

Jsmalls wrote: »

@Waffennacht
They changed it to 60% of your max health, which mine as well been reverting it. I run about 24k health so .6 is 14.4k damage shield which is about where I'm sitting at for my hardened ward.
Don't get me wrong I appreciate the revert to increase their strength. Makes my setup stronger.

Edit: Missed part of your post. That's not how it gets calculated. The halving doesn't account for your max health. So it takes your theoretical shield size 29k before health %, then it halves that. To 14.5k, then if your health isn't high enough it'll drop that value down accordingly.

Honestly if it was the way you posted I'd have quit Mag Sorc instantly 6k shield is unplayable, and I certainly will never be slotting twilight on both bars.

Shields are currently broken and they are getting hit with battle spirit after the health scale and not before.

Jsmalls

@jaws343

I play on console, and that's not how it currently is.

I've been away from the game for probably 2 years so I'm not sure what changes have and haven't happened.

But from experience, and looking at tooltips on console is currently calculated as I described in my post. And the way the damage shield covers my health bar is consistent with the tooltip.

katorga

So cap health. Guess what, players calling for the removal of health based builds in this meta will be back in 3 months calling for the removal of whatever build becomes dominant in the New Meta.

The only difference is that proc sets just become 100% more effective if you cap health at half what is possible today.

Ultimates that boost health like Goliath just become proportionally more powerful.

Proc players who don't have to invest in damage today, simply turn around and invest in any other area: healing, health regen, mitigation, whatever. As long as you don't have to invest in damage, you can over-invest in any other area in a search for advantage.

Waffennacht

Jsmalls wrote: »

@jaws343

I play on console, and that's not how it currently is.

I've been away from the game for probably 2 years so I'm not sure what changes have and haven't happened.

But from experience, and looking at tooltips on console is currently calculated as I described in my post. And the way the damage shield covers my health bar is consistent with the tooltip.

You in PvP area when testing this?

Bergzorn

Jierdanit wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Bergzorn wrote: »

Yes, I approve of a health hard cap of 22k HP in no cp Cyrodiil.

22k seems quite low tbh.

I think about 25k - 28k would be better as a health cap for noncp since otherwise everyone is just going to die in a few seconds because you if you cant get tankier anyways everyone is just going to run around with a 22k hp cap and as much damage as possible on top of it.

The only reason I suggested 22k HP is that I'm running around with 21.8somthing k HP and I'm to lazy to change my build ;-)

Youre playing magsorc right? ^^

Yes, but my Conjured Ward is only 4.5k points strong, getting a little inferiority complex here...

Jsmalls wrote: »

I run about 24k health so .6 is 14.4k damage shield which is about where I'm sitting at for my hardened ward.

Jsmalls

@Waffennacht
This might take me a few tries but these are screenshots in cyrodiil

https://i.ibb.co/tL9FzNF/IMG-20210122-162919964.jpg"
"https://i.ibb.co/FBmN7jK/IMG-20210122-162932951.jpg" "https://i.ibb.co/YN3FG9t/IMG-20210122-162959996.jpg"

I really tried to imbed them but no luck, but those are them haha