Is Mist Form going to get a nerf or what?

wheem_ESO

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Mist form was fine when it had an upfront cost(4k I think) and it was limited to 4 seconds. It should be reverted to this or have an escalating cost.

If they go back to the older style of Mist Form, I hope they use the even older version, where you keep Major Expedition for the duration if Mist Form is canceled early. Personally, I'd like to see the snare/root immunity remain as well, with the tradeoff being loss of damage reduction and hard-CC immunity while regaining the ability to cast/sprint/etc...Otherwise, I think Race Against Time just becomes the clear winner over Mist Form in almost all cases.

silver1surfer69

Major protection now gives 10% damage reduction. How much gives mistform? Ah yes 75%, sure. Imo it should cost health/sec. It should give like 45% mitigation. It should prevent any health/ressource return. That means no health recovery and such stuff and no return from sets or passives whatsoever. The immunity to disabling should be 5 sec after onset with a 20 sec cooldown. As is it atm u cannot kill an experienced player with clever mist form use. That breaks eso smallscale combat atm, because of an abilty. Some ppl here wrote a player using mistform cant kill u, thats totally untrue. As i stated already, as it is now, everyone that is in 1v1/1vx has to use it, because it breaks all blance (that is strived for). I think that is exactly what the eso combat dev team does not want - they want diversity. Tbh it just looks like that they forget the return from sets and passives when designing this skill.

VampireLordLover99

Dracane wrote: »

The most reasonable thing I have read here, is to give mistform a ramping cost. This is the way.

Why? Nobody just sits in mist form. And if they do, wow, they aren't doing anything themselves. So just ignore them? These people are the literal definition of overreacting

VampireLordLover99

ivramirez wrote: »

@hilmRex is clear that you don't understand the mist form skill and you understand less the impact of it on PvP. The mist form skill is beyond of an scaping tool, it has too many advantages and no disadvantages and it alters the game in a very negative way. The skill needs a significant penalty. BTW, the mist form is the least of the problems compared to other things.

No disadvantage? I'm sorry, I forgot the part where:

-mist form let me use abilities in it
-was faster than sprinting.
-Or that part where it still regened resources naturally.
-Or the part where it didn't drain magicka to keep up every second.
-And lastly I forgot it wasn't a part of an already bad skill line that comes with its own permanent weaknesses.

VampireLordLover99

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

It’s a catch 22. If you want to do enough damage to kill an “unkillable” player then you need to make sacrifices to your own build. If, for example, you are running a bunch of impen then you are leaving potential damage on the table.

If your reply is “I could never PvP without good defenses”, well that the exact reason why other people run mist form.

At the end of the day you 100% absolutely can kill any “unkillable” players with any CP810 toon in any class. You just might not be able to do it without going off meta.

Ruling: No Nerf Needed, Change Your Build

Note: I used to run Mist Form before it was cool like 4 years ago. I haven’t in at least 2 years because there are definitely better options if you look and get creative.

Yup. These people really out here complaining about a skill that doesn't need touched because they expect their one pro build they looked up online to kill everything.

I'd say mist form could use some very slight buffs, actually. Such as making elusive mist a bit faster than sprint or amping the damage on blood mist.

VampireLordLover99

ccfeeling wrote: »

Can mist form kill players?

You'd think mist form was attacking their families personally with the way these threads are worded.

techyeshic

Mist form is a great equalizer for those who are not sorcs or NBs and do not have an escape ability nor defense. Stripping that makes it not worthwhile to be a vamp. Probably what they should do is since you are not supposed to recover mag or receive heals; it should also block magicka return abilities and health recovery. Maybe get rid of the 75% damage reduction but TBH; im not sure that even works in PvP as I have melted players in mist and the only ones really tanky, were tanky without being in mist. Might be because them not getting their heals and its just those that have the high health recovery even while in mist form which would be fixed by blocking that out.

VampireLordLover99

HiImRex wrote: »

I think there's a few players in this thread who are frustrated because they don't really understand how mistform builds work.

The FIX for mistform is easy. Give the skill a scaling cost increase that begins on the 3rd tick, mistform fatigue persists for 2 seconds after coming out of mistform and then the cost increase resets. If you re-enter mistform before those two seconds pass, cost continues to scale up.

Now, let me de-MIST-ify mistform for some of you.

@ivramirez please don't take this the wrong way but you keep saying cheeky stuff about mistform and reposting that one video over and over again but how about clips of you dominating in a mistform build in high MMR bgs or soloing cyrodil and successfully getting kills and getting away? Because I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

If you fully invest into it, Mistform is one of the most powerful defensive abilities in the game. But it also requires insane amount of investment to make it practical, and also is one of the most all-in defensive moves in terms of actual gameplay.

#1 the investment:

First, 3x infused cost reduction... this gets thrown around like it's not a big deal but this is actually a huge investment to make mistform work. You're giving up 1000 spell or weapon dmg after major brutality/sorcery which is on at all times with no conditions. This is the single BEST source of spell or weapon damage you can get in the game, and most good players find a way to get sustain elsewhere so they can use triple infused spell or weapon damage. It's pretty much impossible to get this back efficiently, which just means mistform builds by their very design have to give up a ton of damage they otherwise would have had.

"But wait, what about procs doing damage for you with Malacath?"

Proc Malacath builds WITH eternal vigor also run triple infused damage glyphs on jewelry. On my stam sorc, I get to have 4k+ weapon damage AND vat 2h with malacath and it will melt people infinitely faster than my mistform vat ele magplar and have better sustain and more practical survivability with streak and speed.

Second, investing into HP regen... if you think that slapping on 1 random HP recov set gets you enough tankiness in mistform to laugh while being chased by 4 people, you're wrong or those 4 people are weak. You want to actively min-mix your setup to achieve significantly beyond cap resistances and 4k+ hp recovery in mistform, but at the same time you'll still die to good players unless you're LOSing and coming out of mistform to cleanse and heal. (source: hours of actual BG experience)

If the HP recovery set is active on your front bar (the bar you do damage on), then you can't achieve max hp regen on your back bar, which means a fully min-maxed mistform build will have pretty much ZERO special defense on their front bar, which they need to be on in order to influence the match in any real way.

BTW, actually getting to 4-5k hp recov in your back bar requires a specific 5 piece + 3 more pieces + full armor pots... where's the stam sustain coming from? Answer: nowhere. If you can't come out of mistform, you might as well not exist. If you don't have stamina to break free or block, you can't come out of mistform. If you use tripots for stam, you can't tank nearly as much as you ideally would want to.

Which brings us to the next point:

#2 the most one-dimensional defensive ability in the game:

If you want to be tanky and still be able to ... you know, DO stuff, building for block tanking is WAY better than mistform (I know this because I have played both styles extensively). You see, if a player is staying in mistform, he might as well not exist in the game.

"IT COSTS NOTHING" but you're also at best reginning 100 magicka per second, with very low regen on your character sheet to begin with, and probably using hp + armor pots, which means staying in Mistform ONLY ensures you live and absolutely nothing else. You can't heal your allies, cleanse yourself, debuff enemies, or deal damage.

And as I explained above, you are a low-stam squishy mag boy on your front bar, which means for a mistform build to really have an impact on a match they have to put themselves at risk.

Without getting too wordy, let me put it this way:

Getting a 0 death mistform BG game is easy.

Getting a 15 - 0 mistform BG game in high MMR is hard. It's way harder than, say... my meta stam sorc, that can streak in and 1 shot most people with 4k weapon damage with malacath and vat 2h (including mistform players on their front bar) and streak out.

(This will apply to players like Tondo who are mainly healers. BTW, mistform healers actually have it much harder since running HP regen + triple reduced cost glyphs will severely gimp the group utility of a healer... meaning Tondo probably isn't that tanky to begin with even in mistform and will REALLY have to choose when to be in mistform and when to... you know, actually cast abilities so the team doesn't wipe).

And if you're dying to a mistform player doing nothing but applying vat ele and zaan, I'm sorry, you are literally the kind of player that gets 1 shot by unleashed/vma 2h crit charge and this is clearly a learn to play issue that goes beyond nerfing one specific setup.

TLDR

Mistform requires a ton of investment in order to make it strong.
You're still squishy on your front bar with low stam sustain.
It makes your offensive very one-dimensional.
Using it effectively to actually influence a match requires a lot of skill.

Here's what you think will happen in mistform: you press a couple buttons and you melt everyone and is a god.

Here's yreality: You come out of mistform to cast ele drain, I streak in with my stam sorc and drop a 25k burst combo on you and execute you to dead in your mistform. You never leave mistform again, your team loses, you did nothing and end the game in 0-1-0.

Again, fix to mistform is very simple:

Scaling cost increase, begins with 3rd tick of skill. Mistform fatigue persists for 2 seconds after coming out of mistform.

A scaling cost increase would kill the skill. Why not just nerf the cost reduction runes? The actual source of the issue here.

VampireLordLover99

Also worth noting that ANY nerfs to this skill will make vampire more worse for pvp than it already is.

People really aren't taking into consideration that this skill is a part of an already trash line with a lot of weaknesses.

VampireLordLover99

techyeshic wrote: »

Mist form is a great equalizer for those who are not sorcs or NBs and do not have an escape ability nor defense. Stripping that makes it not worthwhile to be a vamp. Probably what they should do is since you are not supposed to recover mag or receive heals; it should also block magicka return abilities and health recovery. Maybe get rid of the 75% damage reduction but TBH; im not sure that even works in PvP as I have melted players in mist and the only ones really tanky, were tanky without being in mist. Might be because them not getting their heals and its just those that have the high health recovery even while in mist form which would be fixed by blocking that out.

There's no way someone has over 2k health recovery in mist form.

Also don't forget to get the skill cost reduced by maximum they need to sacrifice 100% of their health recovery from vampirism.

Nerfing this skill in anyway is all around a bad move and I hope ZoS doesn't listen to these very few naysayers

silver1surfer69

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Mist form is a great equalizer for those who are not sorcs or NBs and do not have an escape ability nor defense. Stripping that makes it not worthwhile to be a vamp. Probably what they should do is since you are not supposed to recover mag or receive heals; it should also block magicka return abilities and health recovery. Maybe get rid of the 75% damage reduction but TBH; im not sure that even works in PvP as I have melted players in mist and the only ones really tanky, were tanky without being in mist. Might be because them not getting their heals and its just those that have the high health recovery even while in mist form which would be fixed by blocking that out.

There's no way someone has over 2k health recovery in mist form.

Also don't forget to get the skill cost reduced by maximum they need to sacrifice 100% of their health recovery from vampirism.

Nerfing this skill in anyway is all around a bad move and I hope ZoS doesn't listen to these very few naysayers

U can use mistform on stage 1 right? Thats just minus 10% Hreg, 3% costincresase amd 5% fire dmg right.

silver1surfer69

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Also worth noting that ANY nerfs to this skill will make vampire more worse for pvp than it already is.

People really aren't taking into consideration that this skill is a part of an already trash line with a lot of weaknesses.

I played vamp on another char years back and i didnt wanted to play vamp again. With this mistform now i just turned vamp yesterday and i atm just have the drawbacks with no advantage because i havent levelled yet. Yestrady i fought in cyro and didnt even feel the drawbacks, so thats just a joke with the weaknesses on stage 1. I will have easily over 2 k Hreg on stage 1 bet on it.

dcmgti

People still easily die in mist even with a tanky health recovery build. You can't compare major protection to mist. In major protection you can self heal, attack, block, roll dodge, drop an ult. You can do anything you want with major protection up. I die in mist with strong health recovery, 30k health and strong resists. And I still can't sustain mist for a long period of time without draining my mag pool. Because to do that I would have to give up damage and healing power from a heal that scales with spell damage. "IF" someone is just sitting in mist form they aren't killing 90% of pvp players even with a Zaan's and Vate staff proc.

"IF" you see someone that just sits in mist, as stated before you can ignore them or maybe you have enough burst to kill them. Up to you. Yes ignoring certain players seems dumb in pvp. But out of all the troll builds that I ignore and choose to not waste energy on, I still haven't seen anyone just chilling in mist form.

silver1surfer69

dcmgti wrote: »

People still easily die in mist even with a tanky health recovery build. You can't compare major protection to mist. In major protection you can self heal, attack, block, roll dodge, drop an ult. You can do anything you want with major protection up. I die in mist with strong health recovery, 30k health and strong resists. And I still can't sustain mist for a long period of time without draining my mag pool. Because to do that I would have to give up damage and healing power from a heal that scales with spell damage. "IF" someone is just sitting in mist form they aren't killing 90% of pvp players even with a Zaan's and Vate staff proc.

"IF" you see someone that just sits in mist, as stated before you can ignore them or maybe you have enough burst to kill them. Up to you. Yes ignoring certain players seems dumb in pvp. But out of all the troll builds that I ignore and choose to not waste energy on, I still haven't seen anyone just chilling in mist form.

I used the major protection example just to show the scale of the 2. I do not play this game for years to ignore someone, if i cant come up with a build and enough skill to kill my opponent in a 1v1, because the game breaks the balance of power (there will never be 100% balance thats sure, but the devs strive for it), then the game has to be adjusted or everybody is using it. That are my 2 options atm.

wheem_ESO

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Mist form is a great equalizer for those who are not sorcs or NBs and do not have an escape ability nor defense. Stripping that makes it not worthwhile to be a vamp. Probably what they should do is since you are not supposed to recover mag or receive heals; it should also block magicka return abilities and health recovery. Maybe get rid of the 75% damage reduction but TBH; im not sure that even works in PvP as I have melted players in mist and the only ones really tanky, were tanky without being in mist. Might be because them not getting their heals and its just those that have the high health recovery even while in mist form which would be fixed by blocking that out.

There's no way someone has over 2k health recovery in mist form.

Also don't forget to get the skill cost reduced by maximum they need to sacrifice 100% of their health recovery from vampirism.

Nerfing this skill in anyway is all around a bad move and I hope ZoS doesn't listen to these very few naysayers

U can use mistform on stage 1 right? Thats just minus 10% Hreg, 3% costincresase amd 5% fire dmg right.

And +20% incoming damage from Fighter's Guild abilities, as well as big damage from prismatic weapon enchants if you fight someone obnoxious enough to use them.

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Also worth noting that ANY nerfs to this skill will make vampire more worse for pvp than it already is.

People really aren't taking into consideration that this skill is a part of an already trash line with a lot of weaknesses.

I played vamp on another char years back and i didnt wanted to play vamp again. With this mistform now i just turned vamp yesterday and i atm just have the drawbacks with no advantage because i havent levelled yet. Yestrady i fought in cyro and didnt even feel the drawbacks, so thats just a joke with the weaknesses on stage 1. I will have easily over 2 k Hreg on stage 1 bet on it.

There are a lot of really weak players in Cyrodiil, and fighting there for 1 evening isn't going to tell you much. Fight some of the stronger groups that actually coordinate their +20% damage Dawnbreakers, and do so without using cost reduction glyphs.

As I stated in a previous post where someone was complaining about Mist Form, on a Breton with Stage 1 Vampirism my Mist Form would cost 852 magicka/second. That's not something you can just chill in permanently, especially on a class that doesn't have access to abilities that are able to return resources while in Mist Form.

The "perma-Mist Form" builds that seem to have people upset are only possible due to cost reduction jewelry, proc sets for damage, and/or high health regen being active, and this somehow leads them to the conclusion that Mist Form itself is in need of essentially being gutted. Apparently Sorcs and dedicated healers are the only magicka builds that should be allowed to have any survivability.

dcmgti

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

dcmgti wrote: »

People still easily die in mist even with a tanky health recovery build. You can't compare major protection to mist. In major protection you can self heal, attack, block, roll dodge, drop an ult. You can do anything you want with major protection up. I die in mist with strong health recovery, 30k health and strong resists. And I still can't sustain mist for a long period of time without draining my mag pool. Because to do that I would have to give up damage and healing power from a heal that scales with spell damage. "IF" someone is just sitting in mist form they aren't killing 90% of pvp players even with a Zaan's and Vate staff proc.

"IF" you see someone that just sits in mist, as stated before you can ignore them or maybe you have enough burst to kill them. Up to you. Yes ignoring certain players seems dumb in pvp. But out of all the troll builds that I ignore and choose to not waste energy on, I still haven't seen anyone just chilling in mist form.

I used the major protection example just to show the scale of the 2. I do not play this game for years to ignore someone, if i cant come up with a build and enough skill to kill my opponent in a 1v1, because the game breaks the balance of power (there will never be 100% balance thats sure, but the devs strive for it), then the game has to be adjusted or everybody is using it. That are my 2 options atm.

So you just admitted that the reason you want to nerf a skill is because you couldn't kill someone in mist form. Even though said nerf would affect a lot of players. So if I can't kill a sorc because they are streak spamming, should I call to nerf the skill? Same thing goes for cloak/shade.

Goregrinder

dcmgti wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

dcmgti wrote: »

People still easily die in mist even with a tanky health recovery build. You can't compare major protection to mist. In major protection you can self heal, attack, block, roll dodge, drop an ult. You can do anything you want with major protection up. I die in mist with strong health recovery, 30k health and strong resists. And I still can't sustain mist for a long period of time without draining my mag pool. Because to do that I would have to give up damage and healing power from a heal that scales with spell damage. "IF" someone is just sitting in mist form they aren't killing 90% of pvp players even with a Zaan's and Vate staff proc.

"IF" you see someone that just sits in mist, as stated before you can ignore them or maybe you have enough burst to kill them. Up to you. Yes ignoring certain players seems dumb in pvp. But out of all the troll builds that I ignore and choose to not waste energy on, I still haven't seen anyone just chilling in mist form.

I used the major protection example just to show the scale of the 2. I do not play this game for years to ignore someone, if i cant come up with a build and enough skill to kill my opponent in a 1v1, because the game breaks the balance of power (there will never be 100% balance thats sure, but the devs strive for it), then the game has to be adjusted or everybody is using it. That are my 2 options atm.

So you just admitted that the reason you want to nerf a skill is because you couldn't kill someone in mist form. Even though said nerf would affect a lot of players. So if I can't kill a sorc because they are streak spamming, should I call to nerf the skill? Same thing goes for cloak/shade.

Caught him red handed lol.

geonsocal

yeah, good luck making it through a front door as a stage four vamp with oil pouring down and not having 75% damage mitigation...

thatESOdude

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

Major protection now gives 10% damage reduction. How much gives mistform? Ah yes 75%, sure. Imo it should cost health/sec. It should give like 45% mitigation. It should prevent any health/ressource return. That means no health recovery and such stuff and no return from sets or passives whatsoever. The immunity to disabling should be 5 sec after onset with a 20 sec cooldown. As is it atm u cannot kill an experienced player with clever mist form use. That breaks eso smallscale combat atm, because of an abilty. Some ppl here wrote a player using mistform cant kill u, thats totally untrue. As i stated already, as it is now, everyone that is in 1v1/1vx has to use it, because it breaks all blance (that is strived for). I think that is exactly what the eso combat dev team does not want - they want diversity. Tbh it just looks like that they forget the return from sets and passives when designing this skill.

So you're suggesting that experienced players should be easy prey for zergs?

Dracane

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The most reasonable thing I have read here, is to give mistform a ramping cost. This is the way.

Why? Nobody just sits in mist form. And if they do, wow, they aren't doing anything themselves. So just ignore them? These people are the literal definition of overreacting

I know you are very passionate about vampires.
Mistform is simply too cheap right now. It was alright when it had an upfront cost and a maximum duration. You could await that and stun them and try to burst them.

I want to see it return to either this or have its cost increased over time. There is a reason why the strongest defenses in the game have ramping costs. Mistform is without a doubt one of them.

If you so desperately want vampire buffed, then you need to make sacrifices. As of now, Mistform offers too much in my opinion and in order for other aspects of vampire to become better, mistform needs some rebalancing.
I as well would like to be a vampire for its passives. Though as long as this atrocious cost increase is a penalty, this will not happen for me. I tried it and felt much stronger after I returned to mortal form after a few weeks. The cost increase cripples everything that does not just run stage 1 for mistform. And that's the issue.

Sephyr

dcmgti wrote: »

silver1surfer69 wrote: »

dcmgti wrote: »

People still easily die in mist even with a tanky health recovery build. You can't compare major protection to mist. In major protection you can self heal, attack, block, roll dodge, drop an ult. You can do anything you want with major protection up. I die in mist with strong health recovery, 30k health and strong resists. And I still can't sustain mist for a long period of time without draining my mag pool. Because to do that I would have to give up damage and healing power from a heal that scales with spell damage. "IF" someone is just sitting in mist form they aren't killing 90% of pvp players even with a Zaan's and Vate staff proc.

"IF" you see someone that just sits in mist, as stated before you can ignore them or maybe you have enough burst to kill them. Up to you. Yes ignoring certain players seems dumb in pvp. But out of all the troll builds that I ignore and choose to not waste energy on, I still haven't seen anyone just chilling in mist form.

I used the major protection example just to show the scale of the 2. I do not play this game for years to ignore someone, if i cant come up with a build and enough skill to kill my opponent in a 1v1, because the game breaks the balance of power (there will never be 100% balance thats sure, but the devs strive for it), then the game has to be adjusted or everybody is using it. That are my 2 options atm.

So you just admitted that the reason you want to nerf a skill is because you couldn't kill someone in mist form. Even though said nerf would affect a lot of players. So if I can't kill a sorc because they are streak spamming, should I call to nerf the skill? Same thing goes for cloak/shade.

That's what most of the detractors of the skill want. Instead of actually fixing the things that are wrong with it, they just want to nerf the skill entirely because they couldn't get that kill. This is ESO, where everyone thinks they're a walking god.

Edit: Also for the record, I'm seeing some misinformation as well from others in the thread. Streak isn't a defensive skill. It both damages and stuns the player in order to disorient them. It's used as an escape tactic, sure. But it's not solely a 'defense' skill.

Secondly, asking to nerf Mist Form rather than the sources of magicka returns obviously shows a biased nature against the ability (and subsequently the line) itself. If the magicka returns were that much of an issue, why not ask for nerfs toward those sources? It seems rather duplicitous to nerf the ability that has the symptom rather than the actual problem because if it's a problem for Mist Form, it's a problem for others. Which leads me to suspect it's not the actual magicka returns or the cost - it's the fact that people can't make the kill on people in Mist Form because they refuse ignore them until they come out of Mist Form. I'm glad that there are people who see the reason though. Perhaps there's hope for the line yet.

erio

Its like the only thing mag has going for it

Goregrinder

erio wrote: »

Its like the only thing mag has going for it

I guess stam players don't wan't mag players to have the same chance at success as them.

Thogard

Invulnerability on demand is an issue as long as procs can still be fired.

If, while in mist form, your outgoing damage is reduced by 75% as well then that’s great. The zaan + vat destro unstoppable unkillable mist form chasing someone as they get procced to death needs to stop.

Health regen in mist form needs to stop. Players can already stay in it for 30s+ and heal to full from HP recovery.

Procs allow players to build for infused cost reduction and still do insane damage. Fix them both so that mist form trolls can’t output crazy damage while being invulnerable. This is the way.

HiImRex

Thogard wrote: »

Invulnerability on demand is an issue as long as procs can still be fired.

If, while in mist form, your outgoing damage is reduced by 75% as well then that’s great. The zaan + vat destro unstoppable unkillable mist form chasing someone as they get procced to death needs to stop.

Health regen in mist form needs to stop. Players can already stay in it for 30s+ and heal to full from HP recovery.

Procs allow players to build for infused cost reduction and still do insane damage. Fix them both so that mist form trolls can’t output crazy damage while being invulnerable. This is the way.

Big disagree here Mr. Thogard, I think you're saying these things because you've never played (or at least not enough) mistform builds in pvp and so you have only a 50% understanding of how it works and what effect changes will have.

The problem is no procsets should melt people while you do nothing PERIOD. Your reasoning of "vat ele, zaan, and malacath are broken so gut mistform so its unusable" doesn't make sense in the least. You said it yourself, the only reason the cheese you mentioned even works is because of proc sets and malacath together doing so much free damage.

The mistform vat / zaan cheese is so overstated it's not even funny. Any player that will die simply to vat ele and zaan alone is also getting AOE 1 shot by unleashed terror/master 2h crit rush. 130% movespeed mist successfully chasing a AT BASE 140% sprinting player (most likely 170% with RaT) is unreliable and once you add any LOS to it, it's not going to do anything.

Do me a favor, put on an unkillable mistform build with vat ele and zaan and get into BG with good players and tell me what your KDR looks like. It's going to be something like 5-0 at best while you play your heart out. Every night blade will immediately cloak off your only source of damage, every sorc will streak once and break the tether, any player in any build with RaT will LoS both beams off within 2 seconds... zaan mistform punishes bad players with weak builds and that's it, unless someone jumps you at 30% HP or no stam, but ANY build that jumps you in that scenario will destroy you, and probably quicker. Meanwhile I put on vat 2h and malacath on my stam sorc and I'm casually pulling off 10-2, 15-3 most games and I'm not even a stam sorc main.

Generally speaking I'll say this... mistform is situationally broken. But it is NOT WORTH USING AT ALL otherwise. That's what people don't seem to understand.

That's why the fix is the following:

(1) scaling cost increase - absolutely necessary to prevent the brokenness of staying in mistform for 20 seconds (big agree with you on this)

(2) cost increase only begins 3rd tick - triple infused reduction glyph is a huge investment that mainly ONLY benefits mistform, and you should be rewarded with at least 3 seconds of free mistform. Also, the MOST skilled use of mistform is being able to freely go in and out and weave in specific skills inbetween. This preserves the skill-based use of the mistform by not punishing you for expertly weaving mistform into your dynamic pvp rotations.

Also, if you make mistform a 4k, 4 second channel, then you can't replace RaT with mistform anymore and at that point there's no reason to use mistform.

(3) cost increase ramps up exponentially after 3rd tick - like streak, so that you have the CHOICE of staying in mistform for 5 or even 10 seconds but you know that the mistform user is paying a huge sustain price to do so, exponentially draining their magicka pool the longer they stay past 3 seconds

(4) cost increase sticks for 2 seconds after leaving mistform - this one should be obvious, if you just stayed in mistform for 10 seconds, going back into it should be very painful. 2 seconds should be plenty (by the time the scaling cost increase even matters, the mistform user should have almost no magicka anyway) to take advantage of a magicka class that can't use the only defensive ability they dumped so much of their build into.

Anyway, let me know what you think about this fix. I think it's basically perfect for addressing every complaint, without making mistform useless, and will still play nice with potential nerfs and changes to the proc meta.

SOLDIER_1stClass

Lol, It does not need a nerf. You can't do anything but escape. No stun, resource return, and can't do damage.

If you are chasing someone down who is in mist form, that is a poor choice on your end.

If they nerf its defensive capability the least they can do is add resource return to it.

There are other more problematic abilities such as the bolt escape morphs that need to be altered before mist form

HankTwo

@HiImRex

Yeah this is pretty much how I see it. Mist form proc tank gets an uber strong defense with an only okish offense. Tbh what annoys me the most is that in contrast to pretty much all other defensive strategies (streak spam, cloak spam, heal spam, shield spam, ...), mist form actively discourages the attacker to continue their offense, since if you would keep attacking as much as you can, you are most definitely just wasting your resources opening you up for an easy counter attack with stun + zaan. In a 1v1 its pretty much impossible to damage through a high resistance 4k+ health regen mist form build (unless already very deep in execute range. Edit: talking no CP here), so the only reasonable thing you can do is start heavy attacking to reset your own resource pools as well. This makes mist form the ultimate stalemate button, leading to never ending fights. Boring.

Personally, I can see 3 different ways of fixing this:

1) As you mentioned, stacking cost increase with a short duration (~2 to 4 seconds) after mist form ends. This would need to apply to the base cost to the ability, before any cost reduction is applied, to work.

OR

2) Disable all forms of mag sustain in mist form, including things like channeled focus

OR

3) Disable not only healing, but also health recovery (and potentially damage shields) while in mist form

To make this not a flat nerf, I think there is an interesting way to accommodate players that used mist form as a quick repositioning or burst denial tool: Change elusive mists speed buff into an unique 30% speed buff, so you could combo it intelligently with another form of major expedition for a short lasting, but very fast repositioning tool. Not sure if this would end up being op, but on paper it definitely sounds interesting, imo. Or alternatively but less interesting: Make the major expedition linger a bit after mist form ends (similarly to how it used to work when you could block cancel the old 4s duration version).

VampireLordLover99

Dracane wrote: »

VampireLordLover99 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

The most reasonable thing I have read here, is to give mistform a ramping cost. This is the way.

Why? Nobody just sits in mist form. And if they do, wow, they aren't doing anything themselves. So just ignore them? These people are the literal definition of overreacting

I know you are very passionate about vampires.
Mistform is simply too cheap right now. It was alright when it had an upfront cost and a maximum duration. You could await that and stun them and try to burst them.

I want to see it return to either this or have its cost increased over time. There is a reason why the strongest defenses in the game have ramping costs. Mistform is without a doubt one of them.

If you so desperately want vampire buffed, then you need to make sacrifices. As of now, Mistform offers too much in my opinion and in order for other aspects of vampire to become better, mistform needs some rebalancing.
I as well would like to be a vampire for its passives. Though as long as this atrocious cost increase is a penalty, this will not happen for me. I tried it and felt much stronger after I returned to mortal form after a few weeks. The cost increase cripples everything that does not just run stage 1 for mistform. And that's the issue.

Firstly, there are NO defensive skills in the entire game that have ramping cost to use. Streak is the only skill in the entire game that has such and it isn't a defensive one. It's a utility escape/offensive tool. This point of yours is objective misinformation and false, thus should not even be considered with the balance of Mist Form.

Mistform is simply alright right now. You could just, idk, not chase after someone you can't kill in mist form? If they aren't building tank/a build specifically around cheesing in mist form, you more than likely will be able to still kill them. A skill shouldn't be nerfed because people don't know how to not get baited.

Secondly, you acknowledge that vampire is bad and has its own issues. You also say that mist form is one of the only viable builds with vampire. Yet you in the same statement want to nerf the *one* viable, good thing about the class. That doesn't make any sense. You specifically say 'the cost increase cripples everything that does not just run stage 1 for mist form and that's the issue' yet your plan is to NERF that instead of buffing the rest of the class to be up to mist form level? Then what? Then nobody will have a reason to be vampire because you just effectively got rid of the only viable skill in the entire line?

The logic of 'we gotta nerf the already horrid skill line more before we can make improvements' is contradictory and does not make sense.

Mist Form will not change. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

VampireLordLover99

@HankTwo @HiImRex

Mist form does not need a nerf. It just doesn't, plain and simple. Hank, you have the right idea in mind about Elusive Mist offering a unique speed buff and lingering a little out of the form, though. That should be how it currently is if anything.

As for Hilm, why do you acknowledge the very few people on this thread complaining about Mist Form when the majority here have said that the skill doesn't need to be touched? You speak of 'quelling these complaints' as if everyone here is up in arms about mist form. When in reality it's more like 3 guys in a corner table screeching about dying because they were baited by a mist-form tank into a bunch of enemies. If we nerf an entire skill because a few randoms can't not chase a guy in mist form, we might as well nerf every skill into the ground while we're at it when even the slightest complaint comes up, right?

That's the facts of it.

The OP himself admitted he created this thread because he died due to being baited and not being able to kill a chonky tank in mist form. Is this proper grounds to suddenly nerf the ENTIRE skill for every player?

The skill doesn't need to be touched, these people just need to learn which mist form users are worth their time or not. [snip] And the vampire line does not deserve to suffer because people can't just not chase a guy who can't kill you cause he built into mist form yet you can't kill him easily. The entire point of those players are to be an annoyance and time sink for people foolish enough to chase after them.

Have you ever played League Of Legends? There's this champion called Singed. His entire gimmick is being tanky and annoying enough to get people to chase after him, thus causing them to not pay attention to their team or lose an objective. That's part of mist form's gimmick.

If these people are falling for it, that is on them. Not the skill itself.

People don't seem to understand that chances are if you can't kill a guy in mist form and he isn't building around it to where he's as equally useless, you more than likely wouldn't kill them anyways.

The skill already has a heavy set of disadvantages and honestly could use a bit of quality of life adjustments/minor buffs if anything. Such as the thing Hank mentioned regarding the unique speed buff.

Stop trying to get the only balanced and viable skill from a pathetic skill line nerfed [snip] Especially when there's easily triple the number of people here saying Mist Form is fine.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Fawn4287

Lmao mist form has been broken for years and only now people realise, wait until you find out about cloak! One major problem class was always magplars with a sword and board, even a mediocre one was essentially invincible kiting around a decent sized pile of rocks by cycling between a combination of mist form and block, with tri pots it seemed as though one could do this indefinitely. I could never understand as to why it wasn’t just major protection, especially considering it stacks with both the mitigation of the vamp undeath passives, major and minor protection. However its still better than watching a 55k health werewolf or warden get healed out of execute range back to full health by proccing crimson next to a group of ads in the IC.