Penalty Timer

BackStabeth

Edited for clarity: I am not commenting on penalty timers for people who leave random veteran dungeons. I am only referring to queuing for dungeons that are required for veteran undaunted pledges. Random dungeons are an entirely different issue. You are not required to complete random veteran dungeons n hard mode for any extra resources. You are required to complete undaunted veteran pledges in hard mode for extra resources.

This is more or less a complaint about the penalty timer for leaving a dungeon group when queuing for an undaunted pledge dungeon.

We cannot choose which dungeons we must complete for an undaunted pledge, and are rewarded with extra resources for doing veteran dungeons in hard mode.

This creates a situation where people who need to be carried, will queue for a dungeon they shouldn't queue for because they will need to be carried. This isn't so bad an issue when it's one person that needs to be carried, and I don't mind helping people out at all. But when it's 3 people who need to be carried it's a bit much and makes completing the dungeon in HM difficult if not impossible.

People leave under these circumstances, or they become toxic so the others kick them and they don't receive a penalty. I recently queued for a veteran dungeon for an undaunted pledge and was thrown into a group that completed the first boss. All were under 250 cp. At this point I have a choice, try to complete the dungeon and doing so only for the benefit of those that require being carried, and not doing it in HM so not getting the extra resources, which is why I queued for veteran undaunted pledge, and then having to repeat the dungeon yet again to get all the bosses for the pledge, or I can leave and catch the penalty timer, or I can behave in a childish toxic way so they kick me and I don't get the penalty timer and can queue right away for the dungeon I need.

So in this case, knowing I would have to do the dungeon over again because I didn't get all the bosses, I went ahead and struggled through the dungeon for the sake of the three that needed to be carried, for no other reason and for no benefit to myself I did this. On the last boss someone hit the scroll and made it HM, of course there is no way we could do it. Soon as everyone ressed again they hit HM again. I let them know that our group was not going to be able to do HM. There was some name calling, and one of the group left complaining that we were all lame because we couldn't do HM. I suspect he went off to find another group that could carry him through HM.

So the way I see it there are a few issues here. First, the penalty timer. If you are going to punish people for leaving a veteran undaunted pledge there is no way to complete in HM, don't punish them for staying. Either fix the system so that they get credit for the boss already killed and don't have to repeat the dungeon again, or don't allow for the replacement of people in a dungeon that has a current pledge that requires all the bosses killed to complete the dungeon or get rid of the penalty timer in these cases. I'm not a huge fan of the penalty timer, it feels like I am being forced to play with people I wouldn't choose to even when doing so does not benefit me at all, and only benefits the other people in the group. But if there is going to be a punishment for people leaving when they are replacing someone in a group, then also reward them if they stay with a group that will not fulfill their pledge requirements because a required boss was already killed. Why would I want to stay in a pledge dungeon I am receiving no undaunted credit for, or any other rewards past the gear that I have already filled my sticker book with? What benefit for me is there to stay with a group when I'm not completing my pledge requirements and it will take far more time to complete it than waiting out the penalty timer? After all, the only reason I am even doing the dungeon is so that I get keys and crystals for the veteran pledge, otherwise, mostly, I wouldn't be doing them.

Do not allow more than one person under a certain CP to be in any given random veteran dungeon group. Having 3 people under 250 CP makes it so that the person with a higher CP cannot complete the dungeon in hard mode, and thus will not get the HM credit, crystals, etc for doing so. That person would have to leave, then take the penalty timer just so they can get a group that can complete in in HM. Carrying one person is fine, but 3 is way too much to put on any one player. If you remove the reasons why people leave a dungeon group, then there will be no need to create a situation to force them to stay against their wishes, or to punish them for leaving.

This entire concept of punishing people for not wanting to play with toxic players, or in a group doing a pledge that will not get credit for because one of the requirements were already done prior to them joining the group, or not being able to complete in hard mode with the group they were thrown in with, or being thrown into a group with three players that have no business queuing for a dungeon they will have to be carried through to complete just seems very wrong. Forcing people to play or do things they are not wanting to do is not how you retain a good strong happy player base.

preevious

Well, if you use the dungeon finder, you have to accept that you might be paired with someone unable to perform HM. Not everyone wants to.

I suppose, in those case, the majority should prevail. If you don't want to follow, create a pre-made or eat the penalty.
Because, yes .. fleeing because you don't like the group you were assigned, knowing full well the way the finder works, is a bit on the selfish side..

The penalty timer serves a usefull purpose : when you are a DPS, and your tank abruptly leaves because he don't like the dungeon being ran, you can cry. You just waited 15 mins, and you'll have to wait 15 more minutes to find a replacement. This is disheartening. So, that the runaway, selfish tank should be forced to wait as well with a penalty, in those cases, is only fair.

However, you make a very valid point about the halfway_completed dungeon one might end up in. It's punishing to stay, and It's punishing to go. Maybe ZOS should change the pledge so that only the last boss is needed? Most bosses aren't skippable, anyway.

BackStabeth

preevious wrote: »

Well, if you use the dungeon finder, you have to accept that you might be paired with someone unable to perform HM. Not everyone wants to.

I'm not talking about regular random veteran dungeons, I am talking specifically about pledges. There would be no reason to do a veteran pledge unless you were doing hard mode. If you were doing vet for a pledge and not wanting to do HM, then you get the same rewards doing regular.

The reason people are doing veteran pledges, knowing they will need to be carried, is because they want the extra key and crystals. I get it, I understand, I don't blame them for wanting to do veteran HM for the extra goodies. And it's usually not a problem. Oh, it's harder when you are DPS and you get paired up with DPS you have to carry, in vet. It takes a lot more time and it's a drag but I don't mind helping people out at all. I actually like helping people.

However, when it's 3 people that have to be carried, and they all want HM, it's not like they are choosing not to do HM, they want it, but it's not possible. You just wasted much of the few hours you might play ESO that day and all just to fail because there was no chance to accommodate all the people in your group that want to be carried so they get an extra key and crystals for their undaunted pledge. What I am saying is that it might be a good idea to limit how many people under a certain CP can join a veteran pledge, unless it's a pre-made.

Or allow me to state this more clearly. If a person is queuing for a Veteran Undaunted Pledge, they are doing so to obtain the extra key and crystals. I think we can all agree on that, right? If not, then there would be absolutely no reason to try to do an undaunted pledge, in vet for the same reward you would get in regular if you don't do HM.

So, when you are doing an undaunted veteran pledge, and teamed up with 3 other people that make it impossible to complete it in HM, meaning there is absolutely no chance you can complete the requirements for HM, and all are wanting HM, maybe to make it possible, ZOS should limit the number of people in a veteran undaunted pledge dungeon, that are under a certain CP, so people DON'T leave.

The key here is not to get rid of the timer, I don't mind it in most cases at all. And I am not talking about random veteran dungeons that is totally different. I am talking about people specifically queuing for undaunted veteran pledge dungeons specifically to do them in HM so as to get more undaunted resources. If ZOS doesn't want to address the issues and problems in regards to the dungeons, and undaunted veteran pledges then don't punish people, specially when they wait 20 min in queue, by putting them with a group of people who cannot do veteran HM, or have already killed one of the bosses required to complete the undaunted pledge. You get punished waiting in queue, then punished when you get a dungeon you cannot complete the pledge in hard mode with the people you are thrown in with, or are thrown into a group that all need a carry in a veteran dungeon, and then punish them by a timer when they leave what is otherwise impossible to complete. It makes no sense. It's not being selfish at all, if you cannot complete the dungeon for the undaunted pledge, then you shouldn't have to make a choice between not getting the extra resources, or taking the timer penalty. When it's a choice between the timer penalty, and the time it will take to try to complete the veteran dungeon with people who will not be able to do hard mode, the timer ends up being a shorter time you have to wait. You are punished either way, just one you might be able to do the dungeon in hardmode and it's probably slightly less and far less frustration, people will probably choose the penalty timer but really there shouldn't be one in this case.

I think you must have thought I was speaking about any random dungeon, I am commenting only on undaunted pledges, and only veteran. I am strictly talking about undaunted pledges and the dungeons we do for them. If you queue for a random dungeon then you should stick with what you get. And if you leave you should get a penalty timer. But in those case there is no requirement to do them in HM for any extra resources, so HM isn't an issue at all.

preevious

Another tip, that might be usefull to you.

If you end-up in a already halfway run, you can finish it, and then go solo the missed bosses in normal. It doesn't take much time and works for most dungeons (at last, the base game ones).
As long as the last boss was killed in vHM, you'll get the vHM credit.

For the rest, random group can and will sometimes fail. It's annoying, but it's life.
If I may, I'd suggest asking in zone chat for group. Most of the time, the people there a slightly better than in the finder.

svendf

From how I see all this, is no one have to accept anything, when using DF especially, when we talk about carry people. I´m fine with people leaving a group because I do the same.

It´s without any doubt my believe the responsebility is on the guilds out there to help their members and most of them are doing a reaally great job to do so - others are not that great so to speak.

There is also an responsebility on the player not to "just use" other members in the community for the sake of just doing a dungeon in vet and/or HM to get the a ativemennt or, what ever.

In these times there are alot of player´s in both norm and vet dungeon´s, who believe they can taxi along, without being helpfull to the group. Being a burden can happen to all in group content - doing it on purpose is way out off line.

People should focus on level skillines and toon instead of all this power leveling, without learning their toon, meaning leaning the toons and their potential for content. I,m not talking about those making a mistake (we all do) I´m talking about those doing it on purpose and don´t give a flying about anything.

I don´t run dungeon´s as much as I have done, simply becaause I still want to enjoy the ESO and have fun. I have my crystals for now so I can take it easy and enjoy other parts of ESO - I pretty much have what I need for now.

I do feel sorry for those, who need to run these dungeon´s everyday to get their stuff and struggle with player´s, who believe they have no responsebility towards the group they are in.

When all this is over I´m sure we can look back and say - lol what a ride.

Stay safe

BackStabeth

preevious wrote: »

Another tip, that might be usefull to you.

If you end-up in a already halfway run, you can finish it, and then go solo the missed bosses in normal. It doesn't take much time and works for most dungeons (at last, the base game ones).
As long as the last boss was killed in vHM, you'll get the vHM credit.

For the rest, random group can and will sometimes fail. It's annoying, but it's life.
If I may, I'd suggest asking in zone chat for group. Most of the time, the people there a slightly better than in the finder.

I have gone back and killed the first boss a few times, but many times it's not just the first boss you are missing, and that's not something you can do in all vet dungeons. It also comes with the requirement that you finished the first dungeon in vet HM.

What you are talking about is a work around that was thought up by players who are attempted to fix through our own ways, what should be addressed by ZOS. My complaint here is in what ZOS should be doing to address and fix the issue, not on what trickery we can use to circumvent a broken system that doesn't work well for the players.

Players that need to be carried will always queue for veteran dungeons, hoping to be carried because of the benefit in rewards, in resources doing undaunted pledges in HM. That is not going to stop unless ZOS does a CP check prior, but even then I have seen low CP players able to do things far better than players at 810, so that's not even fair.

TO fix the issues? A few suggestions to ZOS

1. If a player is replacing another player in any group in any dungeon, that player replacing someone should get the benefit of all the bosses killed to that point.
2. Remove the penalty for leaving a group only in veteran undaunted pledges, and only when they are replacing someone if they are not getting the benefit of all the bosses killed prior to replacing another player.
3. If more than one player is below a certain CP, no penalty for someone leaving an undaunted pledge. We worked really hard to get to the CP we all are at, we should not be punished trying and working towards higher CP by being paired with too many people that need to be carried. I also do not feel people with lower CP should be shut out from doing veteran content.
4. Only allow 1 player per group of a lower CP to play with others that have a higher CP in undaunted pledges unless it's a pre-formed group.

I'm sure there are many other ways to address the issues. The point is, there are far better ways to fix these issues than requiring players to play through, and then go back and kill the first boss or the bosses they missed. People will do this, queue with another group to get the first bosses they missed. Then they leave, causing the problem again with the new replacement required for the group to complete the dungeon. The current system creates and causes all kinds of issues that ZOS would do well to take a look at what could be done to resolve these issues.

OlumoGarbag

The game needs a small barrier between normal and vet dungeons. Something like: finish the first 4 stages of normal Maelstrom to have access to the Vet non DLC Que (you still have access to everything through premade que).

That way people would actually have to do semi advanced PVE content for once without getting carried by group memebers and even a damage tank or damage healer can do those.

Xuhora

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

The game needs a small barrier between normal and vet dungeons. Something like: finish the first 4 stages of normal Maelstrom to have access to the Vet non DLC Que (you still have access to everything through premade que).

That way people would actually have to do semi advanced PVE content for once without getting carried by group memebers and even a damage tank or damage healer can do those.

imagine.... having to do an activity from DLC to enter vet NON DLC content....
random is and will allways be random. if you use DF for pledges, well why not form a group in zChat, thats fast and you get mostly the right people. if you use DF for 10 transmutes, do it normal. if you use DF for vet and just for the fun of random VET content (like me) learn to deal with the randomness of randoms.

zvavi

cp doesnt matter, i completed vBC2 HM at the time with a 500 cp tank, while both dds (me and another guy, i think i was around 213 cp then, the other dd was around 170) were below 250, and healer below 160.

what i am trying to say is:
CP thresholds wont help, since it is usually the player's fault.

i will agree though on few things:
1. penalty timer should be doubled for random dungeons. the amount of people who queue for random, and then leave group ditching players right away is unbelievably high.
2. if you do that more than 3 times a day on your account, you will have a 24 hours penalty.
3. queue penalties on non random should be halved (cause people can crash).
4. all undaunted pledges should be updated to the new format of the dlc dungeons, requiring only last boss for completion.

magnusthorek

Yeah, the timer punishes legitimate players way too hard.

Today I queued for Direfrost Keep pledge and one of the pugs, can't say if it was a "DPS" or another fake-tank plague and the guy/girl ran everything towards the first boss, fought a little and before the boss was dead (guess he abused my jesus beam, as people often do <_<) and ran to next. Sure, that's not a problem, you may think. But then this person aggroed everything on his/her path (as expected) and died at boss' feet (also as expected). And then the whole team died because a pug healer usually can't stand the pressure of, like, 15 mobs all attacking at once and, in the end, I paid the price, being forced to leave a group that perhaps would take more than 10mins to clear the dungeon, and had to wait the full time.

hafgood

Just like to point out that those you have grouped with have not necessarily queued for that specific dungeon and may not be expecting to do hm.

They may have queued for a random vet dungeon. Their random happens to coincide with your pledge.

Stop judging them.

Stop expecting all players to be capable of doing vet hm.

Want a group that can do it? Find 3 friends and do it with them.

I know the group finder should be able to do what you want but it can't.

svendf

The penaltry timer some call it. I call it an assurance not to end up in the same group again, which I´m fully ok with.

Having the timer raised futher if leaving before time looks more like a player, want an assurance for a free carrie more than everthing if needed despite what have been said. The timer is working fine so no reason to change it.

Further I feel it´s not for any to force "anyone" to play in a group or with people they don´t feel give the enjoyment we all hope for. I believe Zos will never give in to suggestions like that as it will bring alot of negativity

svendf

Regarding activating HM. A good method in avoiding people to activate HM because they feel they are entitled to. Could be all have to activate HM scrole.

For trials it should be the host/lead, who are the only one able to activate HM. I will be fine with that and if I don´t get my HM I can get it another day.

CrashTest

You get the penalty even if you're kicked.

You get it for any reason you leave the group if you're still under the 15 minute queue cool down timer when you enter the dungeon.

zaria

hafgood wrote: »

Just like to point out that those you have grouped with have not necessarily queued for that specific dungeon and may not be expecting to do hm.

They may have queued for a random vet dungeon. Their random happens to coincide with your pledge.

Stop judging them.

Stop expecting all players to be capable of doing vet hm.

Want a group that can do it? Find 3 friends and do it with them.

I know the group finder should be able to do what you want but it can't.

This, now I say if you can not do most vet dlc dungeons don't queue for random vet.

However if you pug a vet dlc do not expect HM, on many of them HM is Hard!
People do vet dungeons for monster sets and purple jewelry to.

But yes for the base game dungeons people expect HM, but again I think its a bit obsession about it.
I'm not bothering spending 40 minutes trying to get HM because people die in the one shot on last boss over and over.
Then I take one key.

AlnilamE

OP, you know the timer starts when you accept the group, right? Give the group 15 minutes and then leave and requeue if you really think they can't make it.

And if they are in a pledge and already killed a boss, then you could simply say "Hey guys, I'm on the pledge and I needed that boss. Do you mind kicking me so I can requeue?"

BackStabeth wrote: »

TO fix the issues? A few suggestions to ZOS

1. If a player is replacing another player in any group in any dungeon, that player replacing someone should get the benefit of all the bosses killed to that point.

And then we are going to have groups of 3 queueing for pledges/dungeons and when you get to the last boss, one of their guildies logs on and they kick you so he/she can take your place and get the pledge done.

My choice for resolving your issue would be that if you queue for a specific dungeon (not a random), you have an option to check "fresh group only".

3. Remove the penalty for leaving a group only in veteran undaunted pledges, and only when they are replacing someone if they are not getting the benefit of all the bosses killed prior to replacing another player.
4. If more than one player is below a certain CP, no penalty for someone leaving an undaunted pledge. We worked really hard to get to the CP we all are at, we should not be punished trying and working towards higher CP by being paired with too many people that need to be carried. I also do not feel people with lower CP should be shut out from doing veteran content.
5. Only allow 1 player per group of a lower CP to play with others that have a higher CP in undaunted pledges unless it's a pre-formed group.

You are putting way to much faith in CP. I have 1400 CP and I would not dream of running a vet pledge on most of my DPS toons if it's not with guildies.

You are also making it sound that dungeons should just be finished asap and there should be no challenge or learning going on. People will try things they are not ready for. That's ok.

EDITED TO ADD: Reasons to do vet pledges even if not doing HM: Purple jewelry and maybe the character you're on needs the achievement.

Grega

I don’t think there’s a way ZOS can code the finder so It can differentiate between pledges and not pledges queues especially with finder being finicky and buggy and many times not working any additional work on it might break it more again.

But I do agree with OP, most people who cannot complete a vet or a HM even, will go in there to get carried for those extra keys and/or gear. I’d even say on a pledge day carry needers will even more likely queue for pledge dungeons BECAUSE it’s a pledge and they expect more people in that queue pool. There’s no way to stop that.

What I propose is to scrap pledges altogether. Award weekly coffers in all dungeons the way trials have it, and award keys in that coffer. Problem solved with needing to run again because you missed a boss and also makes it less of a daily chore that many and most don’t do because if time commitment anyway.

KaGaOri

Penalty timer has valid reasons to exist and should continue to do so. However people added to half done dungeon via group finder ( = random players, not someone's friend / guildie manualy invitetd to join in) should get credited for already killed bosses towards the pledge. It would reduce frustration on both ends - no more spending 25+ min in queue only to get dungeon where doing pledge is impossible and no more failed groups purely because unable to find one replacement player, since anyone put into their group will just ask to be kicked.

Tsar_Gekkou

CrashTest wrote: »

You get the penalty even if you're kicked.

You get it for any reason you leave the group if you're still under the 15 minute queue cool down timer when you enter the dungeon.

You only get the penalty if you get kicked while dc'd, in a loading screen trying to port in, or otherwise outside the dungeon. If you make it into the duneon and you're kicked, or if the other 3 people leave the group, it goes away and you can requeue immediately.

BackStabeth

I am not suggesting that the penalty timer for leaving a random dungeon should be removed.

I am not saying that you should be a specific CP before you can queue for a veteran dungeon.

I am saying that under certain circumstances, it might be best to limit the number of people under a certain CP to join a vet pledge, because frankly, they will end up being carried. If 4 people that are CP 250 cannot complete a veteran dungeon, then those groups should not be made up of 3 people that are CP 250 and one that is 810. Those who have higher CP are being punished in a sense, for having a higher CP. Many stop doing the undaunted pledges because of this fact.

I am not saying we should prevent people of lower CP from doing veteran dungeons, or HM, or whatever else they wish to do. I think that would be wrong. However, I don't think that laying the burden of just simply finishing a dungeon should be the responsibility of those with higher CP, it should be a group effort.

I am not saying that people with lower CP cannot do veteran dungeons, or veteran dungeons on HM. I have seen plenty of tanks that are far better below 500 CP than tanks that re 810 CP+. However, CP does mean literally, how many points you have to distribute and thus, if you are a lower CP you cannot possibly have the same number of points to distribute, nor can you ever be as potentially effective as someone who has more. In some situations people with lower CP have distributed their points far better than people with higher CP.

In situations where people are queuing for a random dungeon, and leave, they should be penalized. However in other situations such as waiting in queue for a long period of time, then added to a group that has already completed one of the requirements for your undaunted pledge, and wanting to leave, those people should not be penalized. If you want them to stay and complete the dungeon with the current group, then don't punished them for doing so. I don't want to waist 15-30 min completing a dungeon with a group that has already done some of the bosses, only to queue for another 15-30 min to do the same dungeon again for another 15-30 min when I only have an hour to play that day and 3 pledges to do.

People will always seek to take advantage of others for their own selfish benefit. We see this time and again. If someone needs a monster helm, and are low CP, they will often wait for it to be a pledge and then run it hoping for the carry. People will fake tank or heal, to jump the queue in order to complete their pledges faster, which causes everyone else issues in the more difficult dungeons. People won't kick someone when they ask to be kicked because a requirement has already been completed for a undaunted pledge because they want to force them to help them complete it. It happens all the time, daily.

I am not saying that any of my solutions are the best solutions or even the right solutions. I am only saying there are solutions, and better ways of doing things so that the very best, kindest, most fun players are not punished over and over, daily, in pugs. They eventually stop queuing for pledges all together.

Because of the nature of my business, because of the hours that are available to me to play, and because of my geographical location/time zone, it makes it difficult for me to form a group with guildmates, and I belong to 5 of the most active trade guilds there are. My only real option is to queue for random pugs. I should not be punished for doing so, I should not be punished when I wait for 20 min for a group, only to realize I cannot complete the pledge with that group for whatever reason, leave and then get a penalty timer for another 15 min before I can queue to wait another 20 min. In this example, the system does not serve the players in the best way possible, but in fact in the very worst way possible. It should and needs to be changed in such a way that it does not only benefit certain players and punishes for no good reason other players.

zaria

Tsar_Gekkou wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

You get the penalty even if you're kicked.

You get it for any reason you leave the group if you're still under the 15 minute queue cool down timer when you enter the dungeon.

You only get the penalty if you get kicked while dc'd, in a loading screen trying to port in, or otherwise outside the dungeon. If you make it into the duneon and you're kicked, or if the other 3 people leave the group, it goes away and you can requeue immediately.

Think this is true, remember doing some vet dlc, one dropped out we used the finder and the guy coming in said he was not capable of it and asked to get kicked to not get cooldown. As this was late at night he also came in next time we asked finder

i got logged out porting to an random normal, I got the cooldown but I ported to dungeon and still got the random reward mail

Zulera301

The random dungeon finder isn't completely random. What it usually does is take people who queue for a specific dungeon, and looks for people to fill any vacancies in those groups.

That being said, the penalty is fine how it is. If you don't like your group, go in as a premade or eat the penalty. When I'm doing a random dungeon, I'm in it for the easy XP and loot, so yeah I'm not going to tank frostvault, scalecaller, or moon hunter even if it's a pledge. As such, I accept the penalty even if the only real problem was getting screwed by RNG.

josiahva

BackStabeth wrote: »

Edited for clarity: I am not commenting on penalty timers for people who leave random veteran dungeons. I am only referring to queuing for dungeons that are required for veteran undaunted pledges. Random dungeons are an entirely different issue. You are not required to complete random veteran dungeons n hard mode for any extra resources. You are required to complete undaunted veteran pledges in hard mode for extra resources.

This is more or less a complaint about the penalty timer for leaving a dungeon group when queuing for an undaunted pledge dungeon.

We cannot choose which dungeons we must complete for an undaunted pledge, and are rewarded with extra resources for doing veteran dungeons in hard mode.

This creates a situation where people who need to be carried, will queue for a dungeon they shouldn't queue for because they will need to be carried. This isn't so bad an issue when it's one person that needs to be carried, and I don't mind helping people out at all. But when it's 3 people who need to be carried it's a bit much and makes completing the dungeon in HM difficult if not impossible.

People leave under these circumstances, or they become toxic so the others kick them and they don't receive a penalty. I recently queued for a veteran dungeon for an undaunted pledge and was thrown into a group that completed the first boss. All were under 250 cp. At this point I have a choice, try to complete the dungeon and doing so only for the benefit of those that require being carried, and not doing it in HM so not getting the extra resources, which is why I queued for veteran undaunted pledge, and then having to repeat the dungeon yet again to get all the bosses for the pledge, or I can leave and catch the penalty timer, or I can behave in a childish toxic way so they kick me and I don't get the penalty timer and can queue right away for the dungeon I need.

So in this case, knowing I would have to do the dungeon over again because I didn't get all the bosses, I went ahead and struggled through the dungeon for the sake of the three that needed to be carried, for no other reason and for no benefit to myself I did this. On the last boss someone hit the scroll and made it HM, of course there is no way we could do it. Soon as everyone ressed again they hit HM again. I let them know that our group was not going to be able to do HM. There was some name calling, and one of the group left complaining that we were all lame because we couldn't do HM. I suspect he went off to find another group that could carry him through HM.

So the way I see it there are a few issues here. First, the penalty timer. If you are going to punish people for leaving a veteran undaunted pledge there is no way to complete in HM, don't punish them for staying. Either fix the system so that they get credit for the boss already killed and don't have to repeat the dungeon again, or don't allow for the replacement of people in a dungeon that has a current pledge that requires all the bosses killed to complete the dungeon or get rid of the penalty timer in these cases. I'm not a huge fan of the penalty timer, it feels like I am being forced to play with people I wouldn't choose to even when doing so does not benefit me at all, and only benefits the other people in the group. But if there is going to be a punishment for people leaving when they are replacing someone in a group, then also reward them if they stay with a group that will not fulfill their pledge requirements because a required boss was already killed. Why would I want to stay in a pledge dungeon I am receiving no undaunted credit for, or any other rewards past the gear that I have already filled my sticker book with? What benefit for me is there to stay with a group when I'm not completing my pledge requirements and it will take far more time to complete it than waiting out the penalty timer? After all, the only reason I am even doing the dungeon is so that I get keys and crystals for the veteran pledge, otherwise, mostly, I wouldn't be doing them.

Do not allow more than one person under a certain CP to be in any given random veteran dungeon group. Having 3 people under 250 CP makes it so that the person with a higher CP cannot complete the dungeon in hard mode, and thus will not get the HM credit, crystals, etc for doing so. That person would have to leave, then take the penalty timer just so they can get a group that can complete in in HM. Carrying one person is fine, but 3 is way too much to put on any one player. If you remove the reasons why people leave a dungeon group, then there will be no need to create a situation to force them to stay against their wishes, or to punish them for leaving.

This entire concept of punishing people for not wanting to play with toxic players, or in a group doing a pledge that will not get credit for because one of the requirements were already done prior to them joining the group, or not being able to complete in hard mode with the group they were thrown in with, or being thrown into a group with three players that have no business queuing for a dungeon they will have to be carried through to complete just seems very wrong. Forcing people to play or do things they are not wanting to do is not how you retain a good strong happy player base.

LoL...you are using the group finder expecting to complete vet HM? That is a pretty ridiculous expectation to be honest. If your intention is a 2 key run of whatever dungeon, you need to go in with a known group...not a group of random people. Now, this truly does not apply to vet non-DLC dungeons...those are pretty much solo-able in hard mode for many people...but vet DLC dungeons on HM are rarely do-able with a random pug...but in the ind, it always comes back to one thing:

People have unreasonable expectations from random groups. If you have certain expectations, get a group of friends together to run your preferred content in your preferred way, because no matter what restrictions you want to put in place(restrictions that wouldn't mean a thing anyway) you will inevitably be dissaspointed. I mean, I ran vBRF the other day with a 1500CP snipe spammer...he literally just spammed snipe the entire dungeon and did nothing else at all, to make matters worse he wouldn't even stay with the group and kept dying because he was outside the range of heals, eventually at the last boss we ended having to kick him for not even making an attempt to listen to improve in any way....how do you even get to 1500CP and play that badly?

etchedpixels

BackStabeth wrote: »

1. If a player is replacing another player in any group in any dungeon, that player replacing someone should get the benefit of all the bosses killed to that point.

That would guarantee a larger market in "we've done all but the last boss come join us for a $$$$ carry" nonsense.

LashanW

etchedpixels wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

1. If a player is replacing another player in any group in any dungeon, that player replacing someone should get the benefit of all the bosses killed to that point.

That would guarantee a larger market in "we've done all but the last boss come join us for a $$$$ carry" nonsense.

And yet all dlc dungeon pledges are designed that way. Only base game dungeon pledges still have the old "kill all the specified bosses" rule.

zaria

LashanW wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

1. If a player is replacing another player in any group in any dungeon, that player replacing someone should get the benefit of all the bosses killed to that point.

That would guarantee a larger market in "we've done all but the last boss come join us for a $$$$ carry" nonsense.

And yet all dlc dungeon pledges are designed that way. Only base game dungeon pledges still have the old "kill all the specified bosses" rule.

And the DLC dungeons both longer and harder making this more relevant, its kind of pointless doing this in fungal 1 after all.

LashanW

zaria wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

BackStabeth wrote: »

1. If a player is replacing another player in any group in any dungeon, that player replacing someone should get the benefit of all the bosses killed to that point.

That would guarantee a larger market in "we've done all but the last boss come join us for a $$$$ carry" nonsense.

And yet all dlc dungeon pledges are designed that way. Only base game dungeon pledges still have the old "kill all the specified bosses" rule.

And the DLC dungeons both longer and harder making this more relevant, its kind of pointless doing this in fungal 1 after all.

The reason is DLC dungeons were released later and ZoS didn't make the same mistake again for their pledge quests.

DLC dungeons have a lot of improvements over base game dungeons, things like doors being interactable even in combat state, not having to wait ages to talk to NPCs to proceed quest, not tasking NPCs to unlock doors/portals so players can proceed (wayrest 2 door and elden hollow 2 dark root boss).