It's well past time for HP-based heals to be nerfed.

Urzigurumash

Stahlor wrote: »

An easier solution might be damage penalty for heavy armor: If you are using 5 or more pieces of heavy armor, all your damage is reduced by 35% --> not really any consequences for PVE and people can be tanky in PVP, but will have a hard time to kill anybody + it would be logical, since wearing a heavy iron curass also reduces your movement speed and power in real life.

Would it be logical? Momentum is Velocity times Mass. In my poorly-informed view, Heavy Armor should logically reduce movement speed and sustain, like it already does, and logically it should reduce Attack Speed and increase Damage Done of melee Direct Damage skills.

Give damage procs co-efficients like skills. https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php

Green Dragon Blood and Hungry Scythe are hardly OP, among this class of heals.

Edit: Note the old Orc passive of increased Damage Done for Melee skills appears to reflect this Momentum = Velocity x Mass idea

Afterip

Dracane wrote: »

...

Arctic Blas 4050 Magicka

Envelop yourself in winter winds, instantly healing for 25% Max Health and an additional 3% Max Health every 1 second over 5 seconds. While the effect persists the winds pulse outwards, dealing 154 Frost Damage every 1 second to nearby enemies. Enemies hit by this effect 3 times are stunned for 4 seconds. This healing from this ability scales with your Max Health.

Glacial Presence:
Increase the chance of applying Chilled to enemies with Winter's Embrace abilities by 200%

Chilled is a debilitating effect applied by many Frost Damage effects. It deals additional single Frost Damage tick of damage, and also makes targets more vulnerable to certain subsequent Frost Damage effects, such as Wall of Frost immobilizing Chilled enemies. When an enemy is chilled, Minor maim debuff is applied for 4 seconds reducing their damage dealt by 15%.

Health scale heal, hot heal, aoe stun, aoe -15% debuff and cheapest class heal ылшдд in the game. For me its too much for one skill, overloaded line necht skill.

Stahlor

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Would it be logical? Momentum is Velocity times Mass. In my poorly-informed view, Heavy Armor should logically reduce movement speed and sustain, like it already does, and logically it should reduce Attack Speed and increase Damage Done of melee Direct Damage skills.

Does the mass of your armor significantly increase the damage of the weapon? I guess, that the mass of the weapon itself is more important. So velocity might be the bigger factor here --> swinging a 2-hander in medium armor should make higher damage, than in heavy armor, since you would reach a higher velocity.

Joinovikova

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Unless there are some other upcoming changes that will make it impossible to still have damage while stacking health and utilizing these absurdly overpowered heals, they need a big ole nerf. And frankly, as someone that doesn't like "troll" builds that do nothing but stand around being unkillable, I'm 100% fine with them being nerfed regardless. With the current state of the game, fighting against a Werewolf or Warden basically feels like fighting some other class that has an invisible, untargetable healer following them around, who never messes up and gets out of LOS or range.

I finished a BG this morning where one team was a premade of 3 Werewolves, and each of the other teams had a dedicated healer. Each of these healers had in excess of 1m healing, and the one on my team was actually quite a bit higher than that. My team's other players also added up to a total of 671.3k cross healing, with an obviously unknown amount of self heals mixed in. Still, the 3 WW had fewer deaths than any other combined team, at a grand total of 5 (the squishier of them died 3 times, while the others were at 1 death each). A Magicka Necromancer on their team, who was also premading with them, died 8 times because he didn't have access to ridiculously overpowered self healing.

Lest anyone think that the Werewolves only survived because our damage output was bad, the scoreboard damage numbers were as follows: I had 1m (not counting Blastbones, as it doesn't show on the scoreboard), and that was with a lot of disengaging to grab flags in Crazy King. My other non-healer teammates were at 1.7m and 1.5m. The third team had one player at 1.8m, one player at just under 1m, and a Mag DK that hit 3.7m, which is the highest I've seen in a long time, and perhaps ever.

The ability of certain builds to heal to full in 1-3 GCDs while briefly holding block, dodging, or sprinting around LOS is just ludicrous, and it's past time that something be done about it. It drains every ounce of fun out of the game to fight builds like that. As a point of comparison, my Resistant Flesh on a Magicka Necromancer costs just over 4.1k magicka as a Breton, and typically heals for slightly more than 3k health on a non-crit if I'm not defiled (the number is that low thanks to wearing proc sets, which is the only way for Magicka Necromancer to have any meaningful offense whatsoever). That's < 1hp per point of magicka spent for non-crit heals, and my crits only go a little over 5k.

they basicaly shoudkl change proc sets to scale with offensive stats.., this is the man problemm u can have stupdily op proc sets boosted with malacath and the build for high health and use healt scale ability which is op , but without burst potetioal of zaan and WoE this builds will be just tanks and will not be able to burst donw anyone so the people will stop play them and also this will not hit PVE where health scale abilites are needed for tank..

Defending

Dracane wrote: »

I understand the frustration, but there is little truth behind it.

In no CP, with 35k magicka and 35k health; same gear on all the classes (tested in game)with heavy armor:

Arctic Wind: 3.9k (currently heals for much less because the 10% health from minor toughness gets ignored by health based heals. So fun fact, Wardens right now are much weaker than they should be.)

Honor the Dead: 5k-5,9k depending on missing health.

Clannfear: 4,5k

Coagulating blood: 6-7k

Green Dragonblood: Averagely 2,6k (Really hard to determine)

Resistant Flesh: 4,8k

So as you can see, all health based heals heal for significantly less than the offensive stat scaling heals with the same gear. The only health based heal that is far over the top, is the Werewolf heal. It's the strongest burstheal in the game right now.
Warden right now actually has the worst burst heal of all. Once toughness gets fixed, it will be somewhere around Resistant Flesh and therefor... normal?

I hate Wardens, as do many. But Arctic Wind is not the reason why.

False and untrue. Perhaps you might have overlooked something on your part.

The tooltip of Artic Wind indeed gets modified based on your current health. That 10% extra health (even from a buff) will modify the number on the tooltip. Easy to test, just mouse-over the skill prior to first cast without the buff and after.

I have an exact 35k+ hp warden as mentioned and my tooltip has 11k and 2k healing over time, which is equivalent to almost 20k total healing from a single cast. So it translates to approximately 10k in battlegrounds or no CP.

Meanwhile my Templar has a 9k breath of life tooltip, which translates to healing for 4-5k consistently in battlegrounds or no CP.

Both cases above are wearing the exact same gear.

I can provide screenshots, but i believe if anyone is a somewhat veteran PvPer there should be the realization that with >35k hp, any cast of a health based heal ability is basically two casts of any other heal which is modified by spell/weapon damage (wearing the same gear).

I consider myself being able to recognize numbers accurately after >2000 hours of PvP healing on both warden and templar.

What you mentioned about the werewolf heal is true since with the correct gear set, one can literally just press that one button and stand still with 2 players (no CP) hitting it, without going below 50% health.

Have a good day.

Pauwer

Stahlor wrote: »

Exactly, so the real issue is, heavy armor allows too much damage, while being tanky and having great heals --> damage nerf for heavy armor is the solution.

I agree with you totally. There should be like an outgoing damage reduction in heavy armor always. Why, you say? So we don't all have to wear the same set ups to do well in pvp. Make all armor options viable, make the game more versatile and FUN. All i want is FUN.

Dracane

Defending wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I understand the frustration, but there is little truth behind it.

In no CP, with 35k magicka and 35k health; same gear on all the classes (tested in game)with heavy armor:

Arctic Wind: 3.9k (currently heals for much less because the 10% health from minor toughness gets ignored by health based heals. So fun fact, Wardens right now are much weaker than they should be.)

Honor the Dead: 5k-5,9k depending on missing health.

Clannfear: 4,5k

Coagulating blood: 6-7k

Green Dragonblood: Averagely 2,6k (Really hard to determine)

Resistant Flesh: 4,8k

So as you can see, all health based heals heal for significantly less than the offensive stat scaling heals with the same gear. The only health based heal that is far over the top, is the Werewolf heal. It's the strongest burstheal in the game right now.
Warden right now actually has the worst burst heal of all. Once toughness gets fixed, it will be somewhere around Resistant Flesh and therefor... normal?

I hate Wardens, as do many. But Arctic Wind is not the reason why.

False and untrue. Perhaps you might have overlooked something on your part.

The tooltip of Artic Wind indeed gets modified based on your current health. That 10% extra health (even from a buff) will modify the number on the tooltip. Easy to test, just mouse-over the skill prior to first cast without the buff and after.

I have an exact 35k+ hp warden as mentioned and my tooltip has 11k and 2k healing over time, which is equivalent to almost 20k total healing from a single cast. So it translates to approximately 10k in battlegrounds or no CP.

Meanwhile my Templar has a 9k breath of life tooltip, which translates to healing for 4-5k consistently in battlegrounds or no CP.

Both cases above are wearing the exact same gear.

I can provide screenshots, but i believe if anyone is a somewhat veteran PvPer there should be the realization that with >35k hp, any cast of a health based heal ability is basically two casts of any other heal which is modified by spell/weapon damage (wearing the same gear).

I consider myself being able to recognize numbers accurately after >2000 hours of PvP healing on both warden and templar.

What you mentioned about the werewolf heal is true since with the correct gear set, one can literally just press that one button and stand still with 2 players (no CP) hitting it, without going below 50% health.

Have a good day.

@Defending

Before playing clever, please actually use the ability and not just look at the tooltip. Yes, the tooltip gets updated, but the ability itself remains unchanged. It was tested by others too and found to be true. This is true for all health based heals when under the effect of toughness.

Have a good day.

Urzigurumash

Stahlor wrote: »

Does the mass of your armor significantly increase the damage of the weapon? I guess, that the mass of the weapon itself is more important. So velocity might be the bigger factor here --> swinging a 2-hander in medium armor should make higher damage, than in heavy armor, since you would reach a higher velocity.

That's true, maybe it would depend on the strength of the wearer? We need an expert on Nirn physics. I would suppose even in a Medium setup that Heavy Gauntlets would increase Mass more than they would reduce Velocity, and since Heavy is certainly the least popular weight of Hands, let us have a Heavy Hands Mythic that increases the Damage Done and Cost of Melee Direct Damage Abilities. I would also suppose that every piece of Heavy Armor should increase the Damage Done of Gapclosers, but perhaps only those whose propulsion comes from magical sources rather than physical - Toppling Charge and Empowering Chains, and maybe Leap.

Pauwer wrote: »

I agree with you totally. There should be like an outgoing damage reduction in heavy armor always. Why, you say? So we don't all have to wear the same set ups to do well in pvp. Make all armor options viable, make the game more versatile and FUN. All i want is FUN.

This is a debate probably as old as this forum, but I'd advocate instead for buffs to Medium instead of nerfs to Heavy, even if indirect, assuming no other changes regarding Procs and Malacath. If I look at everything as DPS vs HPS, the changes which made me enjoy Medium over Heavy for many circumstances in 2019 and early 2020 were the buffs to Vigor, the removal of the HoT from Forward Momentum, and the nerf to Lingering Health / Speed Pots. No changes whatsoever to any armor passives, but those above changes titled the DPS vs HPS balance in favor of Medium, for me. Clearly with Malacath, Procs, and Baseline Crit Resist, this balance has been tilted back in favor of Heavy, but I would rather some other changes were made rather than a nerf to Green Dragon Blood.

Wolfpaw

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Unless there are some other upcoming changes that will make it impossible to still have damage while stacking health and utilizing these absurdly overpowered heals, they need a big ole nerf. And frankly, as someone that doesn't like "troll" builds that do nothing but stand around being unkillable, I'm 100% fine with them being nerfed regardless. With the current state of the game, fighting against a Werewolf or Warden basically feels like fighting some other class that has an invisible, untargetable healer following them around, who never messes up and gets out of LOS or range.

I finished a BG this morning where one team was a premade of 3 Werewolves, and each of the other teams had a dedicated healer. Each of these healers had in excess of 1m healing, and the one on my team was actually quite a bit higher than that. My team's other players also added up to a total of 671.3k cross healing, with an obviously unknown amount of self heals mixed in. Still, the 3 WW had fewer deaths than any other combined team, at a grand total of 5 (the squishier of them died 3 times, while the others were at 1 death each). A Magicka Necromancer on their team, who was also premading with them, died 8 times because he didn't have access to ridiculously overpowered self healing.

Lest anyone think that the Werewolves only survived because our damage output was bad, the scoreboard damage numbers were as follows: I had 1m (not counting Blastbones, as it doesn't show on the scoreboard), and that was with a lot of disengaging to grab flags in Crazy King. My other non-healer teammates were at 1.7m and 1.5m. The third team had one player at 1.8m, one player at just under 1m, and a Mag DK that hit 3.7m, which is the highest I've seen in a long time, and perhaps ever.

The ability of certain builds to heal to full in 1-3 GCDs while briefly holding block, dodging, or sprinting around LOS is just ludicrous, and it's past time that something be done about it. It drains every ounce of fun out of the game to fight builds like that. As a point of comparison, my Resistant Flesh on a Magicka Necromancer costs just over 4.1k magicka as a Breton, and typically heals for slightly more than 3k health on a non-crit if I'm not defiled (the number is that low thanks to wearing proc sets, which is the only way for Magicka Necromancer to have any meaningful offense whatsoever). That's < 1hp per point of magicka spent for non-crit heals, and my crits only go a little over 5k.

A drastic reduction in heals scaling with WD & SD also.

Defending

[/quote]

@Defending

Before playing clever, please actually use the ability and not just look at the tooltip. Yes, the tooltip gets updated, but the ability itself remains unchanged. It was tested by others too and found to be true. This is true for all health based heals when under the effect of toughness.

Have a good day.[/quote]
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sure, the ability itself remains unchanged. The query in question (and specifically the context from the OP) is about the amount of healing, not the effects of the health based ability.

And just going off on a slight tangent i am working on my second Grand Overlord as a pure warden tank/healer, so i use the ability pretty much constantly.

Your post asserts that health based healing "So as you can see, all health based heals heal for significantly less than the offensive stat scaling heals with the same gear".

I am pointing out specifically that any amount of healing from a health-based build is significantly (at least 1.5 - 2 times the amount you claimed to have tested), and that any health modifier increases the total amount of healing.

If you truly believe pointing out a totally erroneous false value as claimed is "playing clever" on my part, i will end the discussion on my part before this derails to something else.

Again, have a great day.

Dracane

Defending wrote: »

@Defending

Before playing clever, please actually use the ability and not just look at the tooltip. Yes, the tooltip gets updated, but the ability itself remains unchanged. It was tested by others too and found to be true. This is true for all health based heals when under the effect of toughness.

Have a good day.[/quote]
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Sure, the ability itself remains unchanged. The query in question (and specifically the context from the OP) is about the amount of healing, not the effects of the health based ability.

And just going off on a slight tangent i am working on my second Grand Overlord as a pure warden tank/healer, so i use the ability pretty much constantly.

Your post asserts that health based healing "So as you can see, all health based heals heal for significantly less than the offensive stat scaling heals with the same gear".

I am pointing out specifically that any amount of healing from a health-based build is significantly (at least 1.5 - 2 times the amount you claimed to have tested), and that any health modifier increases the total amount of healing.

If you truly believe pointing out a totally erroneous false value as claimed is "playing clever" on my part, i will end the discussion on my part before this derails to something else.

Again, have a great day.[/quote]

At this point, I do not even have a clue what your point is anymore.
From a burst heal perspective, arctic wind does definately not heal for twice what stat based heals heal for. In fact, it heals for less than almost all of them. The HoT is quite useless when you are under pressure and need a burst heal to survive that.

Mainly, I just want the toughness bug to get fixed so that Arctic Wind heals for what it promises. I agree, it is an overloaded ability. But as a pure burst heal, it is not great in comparison.

dcmgti

I still dont think nerfing health scaled healing is the answer. There's a reason DK, Warden and Sorc are the most popular trial tanks in pve. My two trial tanks are warden and DK. Healing is better on Warden but sustain is much nicer on DK so there's balance between the two.


What about just a flat 35k health cap in pvp? I can get an 18k vigor tooltip on my stamplar, have seen some people with 20k+ tooltips on vigor. I dont see anyone saying nerf resolving vigor.

Reaper_00

dcmgti wrote: »

I dont see anyone saying nerf resolving vigor.

Because they won't be able to say that "healers aren't needed" and "healers have an easy job" if they didn't have the vigor crutch to lean on.

Stahlor

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Because they won't be able to say that "healers aren't needed" and "healers have an easy job" if they didn't have the vigor crutch to lean on.

Pure healers, that only heal, do have an easy job in ESO. It only becomes complex, if they mainly buff while healing.

Reaper_00

Stahlor wrote: »

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Because they won't be able to say that "healers aren't needed" and "healers have an easy job" if they didn't have the vigor crutch to lean on.

Pure healers, that only heal, do have an easy job in ESO. It only becomes complex, if they mainly buff while healing.

Hmm, you've clearly never tried to keep a team alive while you (the healer) is being ganked by five players. It's misconceptions like this that are caused by the ridiculous amount of self healing in the game.

relentless_turnip

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

Reaper_00 wrote: »

Because they won't be able to say that "healers aren't needed" and "healers have an easy job" if they didn't have the vigor crutch to lean on.

Pure healers, that only heal, do have an easy job in ESO. It only becomes complex, if they mainly buff while healing.

Hmm, you've clearly never tried to keep a team alive while you (the healer) is being ganked by five players. It's misconceptions like this that are caused by the ridiculous amount of self healing in the game.

I think this misconception is encouraged by those who back bar a resto and keep everyone alive with several layers of regen. Smart healing makes healing dumb tbh. I would argue cross healing is dumb outside of a dedicated role to do so and only then would people take it seriously and notice the difference.

erio

Out with the tank meta in with the new pls

JayKwellen

Heavy is fine. Even health based heals are mostly fine (I think arctic is an issue, but more so because it's overturned in everything it does in comparison to every other heal in the game. It'd be fine if it was just a burst heal or a burst heal + one other effect).

The issues were seeing in PvP can't be pinpointed to one single thing. It's not health heals, it's not procs, it's not heavy armor, it's the combination of them all.

Procs giving free damage allows you to build heavily into defense and health. Building into heavy increases your health and resistances. Increasing your health through heavy and attributes and sets and glyphs empowers your health based heals. Using malacath buffs your procs letting you build even more into tankiness. And lastly, the one that seems to get often overlooked, the huge buffs to recovery allow you to get better recovery stats than ever before without even having to build I to them as much.

No one thing in a vacuum is a problem, it's only when taken together that you end up with the nonsense meta we have now.

The problem then is that this thread can't be unraveled easily either. You can't simply nerf one thing and hope it's fixed, you'd have to adjust every one of these things in such a way as to still allow them to be viable on their own, and also viable when used together.

Personally I don't even think it's even possible at this point, and I truly believe zos has dug themselves into a hole they're not ever going to be able to get out of. Well, they still could of course but it would require a massive overhaul of both sets and abilities, and I just don't think the developers care that much to try.