It's well past time for HP-based heals to be nerfed.

wheem_ESO

Unless there are some other upcoming changes that will make it impossible to still have damage while stacking health and utilizing these absurdly overpowered heals, they need a big ole nerf. And frankly, as someone that doesn't like "troll" builds that do nothing but stand around being unkillable, I'm 100% fine with them being nerfed regardless. With the current state of the game, fighting against a Werewolf or Warden basically feels like fighting some other class that has an invisible, untargetable healer following them around, who never messes up and gets out of LOS or range.

I finished a BG this morning where one team was a premade of 3 Werewolves, and each of the other teams had a dedicated healer. Each of these healers had in excess of 1m healing, and the one on my team was actually quite a bit higher than that. My team's other players also added up to a total of 671.3k cross healing, with an obviously unknown amount of self heals mixed in. Still, the 3 WW had fewer deaths than any other combined team, at a grand total of 5 (the squishier of them died 3 times, while the others were at 1 death each). A Magicka Necromancer on their team, who was also premading with them, died 8 times because he didn't have access to ridiculously overpowered self healing.

Lest anyone think that the Werewolves only survived because our damage output was bad, the scoreboard damage numbers were as follows: I had 1m (not counting Blastbones, as it doesn't show on the scoreboard), and that was with a lot of disengaging to grab flags in Crazy King. My other non-healer teammates were at 1.7m and 1.5m. The third team had one player at 1.8m, one player at just under 1m, and a Mag DK that hit 3.7m, which is the highest I've seen in a long time, and perhaps ever.

The ability of certain builds to heal to full in 1-3 GCDs while briefly holding block, dodging, or sprinting around LOS is just ludicrous, and it's past time that something be done about it. It drains every ounce of fun out of the game to fight builds like that. As a point of comparison, my Resistant Flesh on a Magicka Necromancer costs just over 4.1k magicka as a Breton, and typically heals for slightly more than 3k health on a non-crit if I'm not defiled (the number is that low thanks to wearing proc sets, which is the only way for Magicka Necromancer to have any meaningful offense whatsoever). That's < 1hp per point of magicka spent for non-crit heals, and my crits only go a little over 5k.

techyeshic

Shouldn't even be a thing. Nor should damage based on health. Just like shields were nerfed to be capped based on health and allowed to be crit hit, because giving a defensive based on how high offensive stats were making for tankiness with 0 investment was wrong. It's the same thing just inverse.

Stahlor

No - health based heals are fine and needed for PVE tanks. High damage on tanky high health characters is the problem in PVP.

techyeshic

Stahlor wrote: »

No - health based heals are fine and needed for PVE tanks. High damage on tanky high health characters is the problem in PVP.

PvE tanks should have healers and therefor NOT need it. Kind of goes right along the issue of healers being trivialised; actually.

Qbiken

Stahlor wrote: »

No - health based heals are fine and needed for PVE tanks. High damage on tanky high health characters is the problem in PVP.

And people wonder why healers aren't needed in most PvE content these days......

dcmgti

techyeshic wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

No - health based heals are fine and needed for PVE tanks. High damage on tanky high health characters is the problem in PVP.

PvE tanks should have healers and therefor NOT need it. Kind of goes right along the issue of healers being trivialised; actually.

My pve main is tank role and I disagree, I main tank and off tank in vet trials every week and tank dlc HM dungeons almost every day if I'm not in Cyrodiil. PVE tanks definitely need health scaled heals for themselves.

Wing

health based heals are fine.

i dont see any DPS complaining that the same stat they use and buff for damage also buffs nearly every heal in the game.

the problem always boils down to proc sets, and to a degree, malacath buffing those proc sets.


however, im also fine with all heals losing there scaling of ALL kinds and healing done converted to heal strength. if you have a problem with tanks having decent heals, then you should have a problem with go for broke glass cannons having the strongest heals in the game.

pick one.

Juhasow

Stahlor wrote: »

No - health based heals are fine and needed for PVE tanks. High damage on tanky high health characters is the problem in PVP.

dcmgti wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

No - health based heals are fine and needed for PVE tanks. High damage on tanky high health characters is the problem in PVP.

PvE tanks should have healers and therefor NOT need it. Kind of goes right along the issue of healers being trivialised; actually.

My pve main is tank role and I disagree, I main tank and off tank in vet trials every week and tank dlc HM dungeons almost every day if I'm not in Cyrodiil. PVE tanks definitely need health scaled heals for themselves.

I think You both missed the point of the thread. It does not question wheter or not health based heals should exist but wheter or not some of them should scale from 25-50% of max health without any further conditions. In PvE values like that are not needed anyway. You can do fine with heal scaling from 15% of max health as a tank in PvE.

katorga

techyeshic wrote: »

Shouldn't even be a thing. Nor should damage based on health. Just like shields were nerfed to be capped based on health and allowed to be crit hit, because giving a defensive based on how high offensive stats were making for tankiness with 0 investment was wrong. It's the same thing just inverse.

Heh, shields are health based now, so I get a massive shield that returns 100% of direct damage. The best shield stack is with a health build. That worked out well.

Once the health-proc builds are nerfed, the gank builds will return.

White wabbit

techyeshic wrote: »

Stahlor wrote: »

No - health based heals are fine and needed for PVE tanks. High damage on tanky high health characters is the problem in PVP.

PvE tanks should have healers and therefor NOT need it. Kind of goes right along the issue of healers being trivialised; actually.

Why should I have to rely on a poor healer no issue is pvp not pve

Stahlor

In the new DLC dungeons and trials even adds hit extremely hard and you can't have a healer with you all the time. It's also quite common to run with 3DD's in the new DLC dungeons. And please don't tell me that PVE content should only be run with a healer.
I agree, that PVP is broken in the moment and has to be fixed, but not by affecting PVE content massively again. These stupid buff and debuff nerfs increased the incoming damage for tanks already a lot. At the same time they buff puncture and give it almost 9000 penetration by using only one skill.
ZOS should start playing their own game and definitely start handling PVP more separately concerning buffs, damage and heals.

Stahlor

An easier solution might be damage penalty for heavy armor: If you are using 5 or more pieces of heavy armor, all your damage is reduced by 35% --> not really any consequences for PVE and people can be tanky in PVP, but will have a hard time to kill anybody + it would be logical, since wearing a heavy iron curass also reduces your movement speed and power in real life.

Juhasow

Stahlor wrote: »

An easier solution might be damage penalty for heavy armor: If you are using 5 or more pieces of heavy armor, all your damage is reduced by 35% --> not really any consequences for PVE and people can be tanky in PVP, but will have a hard time to kill anybody + it would be logical, since wearing a heavy iron curass also reduces your movement speed and power in real life.

That wont happen. ZoS already made that clear they want heavy armor to be semi viable also for damage dealers when they were redesigning heavy armor passives 1st time couple years ago. It's also an RPG game after all that advertises itself with "play the way You want" theme. Heavy armor is not core of the issue with health based heals. People can be tanky in PvP with light or medium armor. It's very illogical and silly to penalize so heavily one type of armor and leaving two others untouched because of PvP reasons. Your change sounds very subjective and reasons for it are very obvious. You just don't want health based heals changed even by the slightest. Also I would reccomend You to get more knowledge about heavy armor in real life.

techyeshic

Stahlor wrote: »

An easier solution might be damage penalty for heavy armor: If you are using 5 or more pieces of heavy armor, all your damage is reduced by 35% --> not really any consequences for PVE and people can be tanky in PVP, but will have a hard time to kill anybody + it would be logical, since wearing a heavy iron curass also reduces your movement speed and power in real life.

Heavy armor is really not a problem. Just using heavy does not make you a tank.

Dracane

I understand the frustration, but there is little truth behind it.

In no CP, with 35k magicka and 35k health; same gear on all the classes (tested in game)with heavy armor:

Arctic Wind: 3.9k (currently heals for much less because the 10% health from minor toughness gets ignored by health based heals. So fun fact, Wardens right now are much weaker than they should be.)

Honor the Dead: 5k-5,9k depending on missing health.

Clannfear: 4,5k

Coagulating blood: 6-7k

Green Dragonblood: Averagely 2,6k (Really hard to determine)

Resistant Flesh: 4,8k

So as you can see, all health based heals heal for significantly less than the offensive stat scaling heals with the same gear. The only health based heal that is far over the top, is the Werewolf heal. It's the strongest burstheal in the game right now.
Warden right now actually has the worst burst heal of all. Once toughness gets fixed, it will be somewhere around Resistant Flesh and therefor... normal?

I hate Wardens, as do many. But Arctic Wind is not the reason why.

Waffennacht

Butttttt.....

Heal based heals arent necessarily in a vacuum; its what allows a build to go to like 50k health and Pure regen stats and still have the ability to heal (not say in its OP or not; just pointing it out)

And procs allow that build to do damage

So while offensive stats may be better comparatively; I would doubt they have the same resource management as the health prone builds

(I think you guys get my drift, gotta unload a truck)

Dracane

Waffennacht wrote: »

Butttttt.....

Heal based heals arent necessarily in a vacuum; its what allows a build to go to like 50k health and Pure regen stats and still have the ability to heal (not say in its OP or not; just pointing it out)

And procs allow that build to do damage

So while offensive stats may be better comparatively; I would doubt they have the same resource management as the health prone builds

(I think you guys get my drift, gotta unload a truck)

Correct, yes. This is the grander issue.
I merely sought to show, that health based heals themselves are not even strong always. The current economy with proc sets etc. blows it out of proportion though.

Stahlor

techyeshic wrote: »

Heavy armor is really not a problem. Just using heavy does not make you a tank.

Heavy armor increases your health, your health recovery, your resistances and your healing received, while still having high damage and even better healing, because of that and you say it isn't the issue?

Stahlor

Juhasow wrote: »

People can be tanky in PvP with light or medium armor

So why are everybody running around with heavy armor then?

Dracane

Stahlor wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

People can be tanky in PvP with light or medium armor

So why is everybody running around with heavy armor?

Because you can not be tanky in light and medium without dedicating at least one set. In heavy, you do not have to. You can go with full proc sets or offensive sets and are fine.

Medium armor at least makes dodging cheaper and sprinting faster to aid in survival. Light armor has nothing to help it survive. Light armor users just get pushed into full defense and never get around to dealing damage. Medium armor can at least do that thanks to dodging.

techyeshic

Stahlor wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Heavy armor is really not a problem. Just using heavy does not make you a tank.

Heavy armor increases your health, your health recovery, your resistances and your healing received, while still having high damage and even better healing, because of that and you say it isn't the issue?

Yep. It's not the issue at all. Was at a reasonable tradeoff level up until the point that stacking health gave no downside because of procs. If you still needed weapon/spell damage and stan/mag stacked; no issue.

In fact; id argue heavy armor for anyone who dares not buck their damage stat; is the only saving grace from making this meta unbearable due to all the free damage flying around with no care for a GCD. And it's very counter able now with sets like stuhns and balorgs, and major+minor breach or onslaught.

Stahlor

Exactly, so the real issue is, heavy armor allows too much damage, while being tanky and having great heals --> damage nerf for heavy armor is the solution.

Dracane

Stahlor wrote: »

Exactly, so the real issue is, heavy armor allows too much damage, while being tanky and having great heals --> damage nerf for heavy armor is the solution.

I still do not agree with this. Fixing proc sets and buffing the other armor types seems much more favorable.
Heavy armor in itself is okay when putting aside procs.

By default, going heavy means you gain tankiness but lose damage and sustain. This is only not true because of proc sets being as they are. And also because the other armor types do not offer enough for their reduced armor values.

techyeshic

Stahlor wrote: »

Exactly, so the real issue is, heavy armor allows too much damage, while being tanky and having great heals --> damage nerf for heavy armor is the solution.

Nooo

The damage it allows is fine by scaling on damage stats. Only the damage and healing done by health based abilities (or just not caring about offensive stats at all) is an issue. A flat nerf would just mean stacking health on medium and light then rolling like mad or just using health shields. Because again; heavy armor is not the issue.

Stahlor

I agree with the proc sets.

Juhasow

Stahlor wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

People can be tanky in PvP with light or medium armor

So why are everybody running around with heavy armor then?

Proc sets. They do not scale from most of the damage stats and they're free to cast so the offensive and sustain benefits of light and medium armor are useless.

Stahlor

techyeshic wrote: »

A flat nerf would just mean stacking health on medium and light then rolling like mad or just using health shields.

I doubt that would happen, since you would loose lots of damage.

Juhasow

Stahlor wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

A flat nerf would just mean stacking health on medium and light then rolling like mad or just using health shields.

I doubt that would happen, since you would loose lots of damage.

Why ? Procs would still do their job.

Tommy_The_Gun

Stahlor wrote: »

No - health based heals are fine and needed for PVE tanks. High damage on tanky high health characters is the problem in PVP.

Yep. I still remember players praising ZOS for making more and more health-scaling heals. The basic idea is that you have to lower your dmg output to have decent heal (split your attributes & hybridize).

But I don't think that high health & tanky builds are the problem. The problem is that you can have such builds with decent dmg with use of 2 dmg proc sets. You can place all your attributes into health and still have decent dmg output because proc sets scale with nothing. It is a fixed value.

If some one is sacrificing everything to be very tanky & hard to kill - they should be hard to kill. What they should not have is good dmg output on top of it.

Juhasow

Dracane wrote: »

I understand the frustration, but there is little truth behind it.

In no CP, with 35k magicka and 35k health; same gear on all the classes (tested in game)with heavy armor:

Arctic Wind: 3.9k (currently heals for much less because the 10% health from minor toughness gets ignored by health based heals. So fun fact, Wardens right now are much weaker than they should be.)

Honor the Dead: 5k-5,9k depending on missing health.

Clannfear: 4,5k

Coagulating blood: 6-7k

Green Dragonblood: Averagely 2,6k (Really hard to determine)

Resistant Flesh: 4,8k

So as you can see, all health based heals heal for significantly less than the offensive stat scaling heals with the same gear. The only health based heal that is far over the top, is the Werewolf heal. It's the strongest burstheal in the game right now.
Warden right now actually has the worst burst heal of all. Once toughness gets fixed, it will be somewhere around Resistant Flesh and therefor... normal?

I hate Wardens, as do many. But Arctic Wind is not the reason why.

Wierd results with Arctic Wind tbh. On my stamden in no CP I am getting ~5k non crit heals with my arctic blast with 37k health. With major mending (which warden have acces to) and combat medic passive it can go up even more. And it's also worth to mention about HoT that Arctic Blast provides which heals for 800 hp minimum per tick providing really decent sustained healing when combined with atleast 1 additional HoT. Outside of WW warden is number 2 problematic setup when it comes to health based heals. That being said I agree that not every health based heal is an issue in PvP.

Stahlor

Juhasow wrote: »

Why ? Procs would still do their job.

Well, I think we all agree, that procs have to be changed anyway.