PvP mode/flagged as available option!

DeHei

TESO changed since release and not everything is going wrong. I wanted to discuss a optional active PvP mode or beeing flagged for PvP on open world would be a great improvement of the game. For beeing flagged the rewards like XP, Gold ect. could be increased like 25% for everything i do while i am flagged. With killing a PvP flagged guy from other alliances i get alliance points AND no penalty like "this is a criminal act".
For me this would be a great fun and would make open world maps also more interesting again.

What do you think?

Lysette

Just search the forum - this was discussed in depth for many years and rejected - pointless to argue again.

hafgood

Just leave this horse alone. It will never happen. You will get a few saying yes great idea, then realism sets in. People play this game because there is NO zonal PvP. PvP is limited to Cyrodiil, IC, BG's and duels, and unless an extra zone is introduced always will be.

Inter zonal PvP with a flag will just lead to a few players with the flag on (it would have to default to off) endlessly trying to find someone to kill. I PvP, my flag would be off. I don't want to be PvPing anywhere other than a PvP zone. I autodecline duels as I don't want to be fighting when going about my PvE experience.

Zos know this. They know it would be a waste of their time and money to implement. Its not going to happen no matter how often these threads pop up, which is probably weekly.

mikemacon

This has been discussed ad infinitum.

What you want is another game - might I suggest WoW or BDO, both of which have what you're looking for (open world PvP).

Agalloch

Only if the former intended justice system will rise ....and ESO will have Open PVP everywhere.

OlumoGarbag

They should just rework cyro and IC. Cyro is to big for the 100ish player maximum we have atm per alliance.
And IC doesent really reward going for any pvp objective. Unless your objective is to zerg down all districts until you have them for yourself and then farm bosses.

Cyrodiil war is going on for too long they should move the war into IC but with actual objectives to fight for. And more meaningful Bossfights for those who want to pve there. Sewers focus on pve and districts on pvp.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

This would result in peeps leaving the game, from gankers, at crafting stations and merchants, as alot of peeps would forget to flag of, as the way zos does things you would be flagged for pvp auto, so nope not a good idea

UGotBenched91

Lysette wrote: »

Just search the forum - this was discussed in depth for many years and rejected - pointless to argue again.

@Lysette

I wouldn't agree it's pointless. You're not supposed to necro old threads and there's going to be new faces and opinions about this topic from new players and changed perspectives. So, for OP to share their thoughts they need to make a new post. In comparison there's tons of threads arguing the same topics made weekly despite past discussion.

Ackwalan

No thanks. Instead of having solo duels around crowded parts of town, you would have full raids.

Gilvoth

i think this is an Awesome idea and i hope zenimax does this.

Daemons_Bane

Gilvoth wrote: »

i think this is an Awesome idea and i hope zenimax does this.

They have told us no, time and time again.. so don't hold your breath..

VaranisArano

But why? I can already duel people and its not like the PVE zones have objectives.

Maybe I just don't get the appeal of questing or crafting and then *boom* someone jumped me.

I suspect it would quickly devolve into a bunch of duelist and a group of gankers waiting for someone to gank.

UGotBenched91

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this topic, I'm seeing some responses that make me question if some of the people replying have ever played an open PVP game before.

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player. And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town. Games like WOW, AION ,Lineage 2 have safe zones like towns that prevent this behavior. Again, I'm not saying ESO needs this I just want to clarify what having this would likely imply.

JKorr

Oh Divines. Not this again.

No. More than that, Oh hell no.

If ZOS wants to cater to the rabid competitive minority, start an open world pvp everywhere all the time kill everyone at any level server. All the open world pvp people can go there. And then, if past games are any indication, they can close the server in a year because there's no population.

ZOS has said there is no way to prevent abuse of any kind of bounty/gold/reward system. Camping spawn points, wayshrines, doors to thieves' refuges, quest givers, people racking up bounties and having friends kill them to split the gold....No. There are games with open world pvp out there. ESO isn't, thank the Divines, one of them.

UGotBenched91

JKorr wrote: »

Oh Divines. Not this again.

No. More than that, Oh hell no.

If ZOS wants to cater to the rabid competitive minority, start an open world pvp everywhere all the time kill everyone at any level server. All the open world pvp people can go there. And then, if past games are any indication, they can close the server in a year because there's no population.

ZOS has said there is no way to prevent abuse of any kind of bounty/gold/reward system. Camping spawn points, wayshrines, doors to thieves' refuges, quest givers, people racking up bounties and having friends kill them to split the gold....No. There are games with open world pvp out there. ESO isn't, thank the Divines, one of them.

Respectively, if ZOS stated there's no way to stop abuse, they are wrong. I played Lineage 2, the king of open world PVP, and people fought for spots, but it wasnt a giant issue that affecting the entire game. Also, the toggle option is the fix for this content. If people aren't toggled for PVP, they can't be ganked, killed, etc.

Again, not saying this belongs in ESO, just throwing my two cents in about open world PVP.

Sylvermynx

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this topic, I'm seeing some responses that make me question if some of the people replying have ever played an open PVP game before.

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player. And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town. Games like WOW, AION ,Lineage 2 have safe zones like towns that prevent this behavior. Again, I'm not saying ESO needs this I just want to clarify what having this would likely imply.

Griefing was rampant in WoW and RIFT when I played them. It was very easy for someone to be flagged, and get between a person healing someone unflagged, thereby causing the healer to get flagged, for instance. There were many ways - that's just one I remember offhand.

RedMuse

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this topic, I'm seeing some responses that make me question if some of the people replying have ever played an open PVP game before.

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player. And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town. Games like WOW, AION ,Lineage 2 have safe zones like towns that prevent this behavior. Again, I'm not saying ESO needs this I just want to clarify what having this would likely imply.

*hysterical laughter*

Yeah I played WoW for years back in vanilla and WotLK and let me tell you what you're saying is either a blatant lie, or ignorance.

First:

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player.

One this assumes that the option to turn this off works. And knowing how prone ESO is to bugs I'd by no means trust this to be true. Even in WoW it frequently glitched so the game automatically turned it on for you even if you turned it off. That was frequent sport for gank happy players to glitch the pvp flag on innocent players.

Second:

And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town

Yeah, no. This was not true of WotLK and vanilla era WoW. You could and was frequently ganked in the two major towns. It was habit for a guild of one side to take the capital of the other faction and then mindless kill and sabotage the players there until they either grew bored or someone bigger and badder for the targeted faction showed up and drove them off.

So yeah, I did. You're a) wrong and b) assumed this won't be bugged seven ways till Sunday.

Anotherone773

I like open world PVP. I like ESO. I don't like them together. I'd rather then spend the effort to make battlegrounds better and more interesting. The BG layout in this game is really disappointing.

Foto1

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this topic, I'm seeing some responses that make me question if some of the people replying have ever played an open PVP game before.

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player. And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town. Games like WOW, AION ,Lineage 2 have safe zones like towns that prevent this behavior. Again, I'm not saying ESO needs this I just want to clarify what having this would likely imply.

don't forget how this game works. something will break and people will be automatically marked as "pvp mod". or people will use cheats to attack others without the "pvp mod" enabled. damn it, even now it can be done - attack people in the pve location using a cheat

UGotBenched91

RedMuse wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this topic, I'm seeing some responses that make me question if some of the people replying have ever played an open PVP game before.

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player. And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town. Games like WOW, AION ,Lineage 2 have safe zones like towns that prevent this behavior. Again, I'm not saying ESO needs this I just want to clarify what having this would likely imply.

*hysterical laughter*

Yeah I played WoW for years back in vanilla and WotLK and let me tell you what you're saying is either a blatant lie, or ignorance.

First:

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player.

One this assumes that the option to turn this off works. And knowing how prone ESO is to bugs I'd by no means trust this to be true. Even in WoW it frequently glitched so the game automatically turned it on for you even if you turned it off. That was frequent sport for gank happy players to glitch the pvp flag on innocent players.

Second:

And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town

Yeah, no. This was not true of WotLK and vanilla era WoW. You could and was frequently ganked in the two major towns. It was habit for a guild of one side to take the capital of the other faction and then mindless kill and sabotage the players there until they either grew bored or someone bigger and badder for the targeted faction showed up and drove them off.

So yeah, I did. You're a) wrong and b) assumed this won't be bugged seven ways till Sunday.

@RedMuse

Ah, my friend, let’s try and just have a discussion without trying to be passive aggressive or mock each other, ok?

Your references to WOW are in the past. I’m not familiar with those glitches or what was allowed then because I didn’t play then. To your knowledge is it still this way?

Having a non glitched open world PVP system is not impossible. If you want a better reference, again Lineage 2. Instead of a flag system a character action system was used. If I attack another player who is (white) I become red. If I’m killed while being red I have a chance of dropping loot. The player who kills me won’t turn red if they are white. Ganking was a low percent issue because players didn’t want to be hunted down for equipment and without equipment they are aeasy kill. Now a system like this won’t work in this game not an I saying it should but there are existing successful open world PvP system where players aren’t just ganked and jumped.

RedMuse

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this topic, I'm seeing some responses that make me question if some of the people replying have ever played an open PVP game before.

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player. And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town. Games like WOW, AION ,Lineage 2 have safe zones like towns that prevent this behavior. Again, I'm not saying ESO needs this I just want to clarify what having this would likely imply.

*hysterical laughter*

Yeah I played WoW for years back in vanilla and WotLK and let me tell you what you're saying is either a blatant lie, or ignorance.

First:

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player.

One this assumes that the option to turn this off works. And knowing how prone ESO is to bugs I'd by no means trust this to be true. Even in WoW it frequently glitched so the game automatically turned it on for you even if you turned it off. That was frequent sport for gank happy players to glitch the pvp flag on innocent players.

Second:

And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town

Yeah, no. This was not true of WotLK and vanilla era WoW. You could and was frequently ganked in the two major towns. It was habit for a guild of one side to take the capital of the other faction and then mindless kill and sabotage the players there until they either grew bored or someone bigger and badder for the targeted faction showed up and drove them off.

So yeah, I did. You're a) wrong and b) assumed this won't be bugged seven ways till Sunday.

@RedMuse

Ah, my friend, let’s try and just have a discussion without trying to be passive aggressive or mock each other, ok?

Your references to WOW are in the past. I’m not familiar with those glitches or what was allowed then because I didn’t play then. To your knowledge is it still this way?

Having a non glitched open world PVP system is not impossible. If you want a better reference, again Lineage 2. Instead of a flag system a character action system was used. If I attack another player who is (white) I become red. If I’m killed while being red I have a chance of dropping loot. The player who kills me won’t turn red if they are white. Ganking was a low percent issue because players didn’t want to be hunted down for equipment and without equipment they are aeasy kill. Now a system like this won’t work in this game not an I saying it should but there are existing successful open world PvP system where players aren’t just ganked and jumped.

I haven't played WoW really since WotLK so I have no idea if the glitch, which wasn't actually a glitch it was WAI only it had some very unintended side effects that gave griefers a field day. It involved either passively or actively getting a non-flagged player to heal or buff a player who was engaged in pvp, then their flag would immediately be swapped to pvp being active and they could be attacked. If WoW's devs, which were far more numerous back then than ESO has today, couldn't fix this bug for year and given how many serious bugs are left to languish for years in this game, are you telling me this wouldn't ever happen in ESO or if it did would be fixed to quickly that pve players wouldn't be bothered by it?

You honestly sound like you don't know WoW and are now upset that your example didn't actually work the way you intended.

And idk Lineage. It is a primary pvp franchise? Or is it like Elder Scrolls based on a pure pve franchise? Because if not the latter you're the target audience of this game.

UGotBenched91

RedMuse wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

RedMuse wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this topic, I'm seeing some responses that make me question if some of the people replying have ever played an open PVP game before.

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player. And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town. Games like WOW, AION ,Lineage 2 have safe zones like towns that prevent this behavior. Again, I'm not saying ESO needs this I just want to clarify what having this would likely imply.

*hysterical laughter*

Yeah I played WoW for years back in vanilla and WotLK and let me tell you what you're saying is either a blatant lie, or ignorance.

First:

In almost all of these games you cant just be "bullied" or "ganked" unless you have flagged yourself as wanting to PVP or you have attached another player.

One this assumes that the option to turn this off works. And knowing how prone ESO is to bugs I'd by no means trust this to be true. Even in WoW it frequently glitched so the game automatically turned it on for you even if you turned it off. That was frequent sport for gank happy players to glitch the pvp flag on innocent players.

Second:

And I've never seen or heard of an open PVP game where you can kill in town

Yeah, no. This was not true of WotLK and vanilla era WoW. You could and was frequently ganked in the two major towns. It was habit for a guild of one side to take the capital of the other faction and then mindless kill and sabotage the players there until they either grew bored or someone bigger and badder for the targeted faction showed up and drove them off.

So yeah, I did. You're a) wrong and b) assumed this won't be bugged seven ways till Sunday.

@RedMuse

Ah, my friend, let’s try and just have a discussion without trying to be passive aggressive or mock each other, ok?

Your references to WOW are in the past. I’m not familiar with those glitches or what was allowed then because I didn’t play then. To your knowledge is it still this way?

Having a non glitched open world PVP system is not impossible. If you want a better reference, again Lineage 2. Instead of a flag system a character action system was used. If I attack another player who is (white) I become red. If I’m killed while being red I have a chance of dropping loot. The player who kills me won’t turn red if they are white. Ganking was a low percent issue because players didn’t want to be hunted down for equipment and without equipment they are aeasy kill. Now a system like this won’t work in this game not an I saying it should but there are existing successful open world PvP system where players aren’t just ganked and jumped.

I haven't played WoW really since WotLK so I have no idea if the glitch, which wasn't actually a glitch it was WAI only it had some very unintended side effects that gave griefers a field day. It involved either passively or actively getting a non-flagged player to heal or buff a player who was engaged in pvp, then their flag would immediately be swapped to pvp being active and they could be attacked. If WoW's devs, which were far more numerous back then than ESO has today, couldn't fix this bug for year and given how many serious bugs are left to languish for years in this game, are you telling me this wouldn't ever happen in ESO or if it did would be fixed to quickly that pve players wouldn't be bothered by it?

You honestly sound like you don't know WoW and are now upset that your example didn't actually work the way you intended.

And idk Lineage. It is a primary pvp franchise? Or is it like Elder Scrolls based on a pure pve franchise? Because if not the latter you're the target audience of this game.

@RedMuse

Ok, so your argument is using your personal observations from 2008-2009 when Wrath of The Litch King came out. That has been a long time ago and didn't work that way in my small glimpse back in 2015.. Again, I'm not arguing for a open world PVP ESO. I'm just trying to offer my insight into how it works as comments I'm seeing seem to think OP is implying they want OW to work how things work in Cyrodil. And, I'm not upset about anything. We're having a conversation. Not everything is a competition. We are talking. Again, let's try and keep it civil.

Lineage is a PVP franchise.

redspecter23

Why do I get the feeling that the players that want this sort of thing wouldn't be searching out good fights, but instead be constantly looking for some poor noob who flagged himself, thinking it might be fun so they can blast him off the face of the world only to have him turn the flag off asap so it won't happen again.

Adding an incentive won't make it better. It would just encourage the gankers to flock to the areas that are known grind spots to grief players to the point they just turn the flags off and the gankers just fight eachother out of boredom.

Sylvermynx

@UGotBenched91 - it was that way in 2013 when I was still playing and in RIFT in 2016 when I was still playing that game. I haven't been back to either one - but my sister still plays WoW and she complains a lot about pvp griefing going on to this day.

JKorr

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Oh Divines. Not this again.

No. More than that, Oh hell no.

If ZOS wants to cater to the rabid competitive minority, start an open world pvp everywhere all the time kill everyone at any level server. All the open world pvp people can go there. And then, if past games are any indication, they can close the server in a year because there's no population.

ZOS has said there is no way to prevent abuse of any kind of bounty/gold/reward system. Camping spawn points, wayshrines, doors to thieves' refuges, quest givers, people racking up bounties and having friends kill them to split the gold....No. There are games with open world pvp out there. ESO isn't, thank the Divines, one of them.

Respectively, if ZOS stated there's no way to stop abuse, they are wrong. I played Lineage 2, the king of open world PVP, and people fought for spots, but it wasnt a giant issue that affecting the entire game. Also, the toggle option is the fix for this content. If people aren't toggled for PVP, they can't be ganked, killed, etc.

Again, not saying this belongs in ESO, just throwing my two cents in about open world PVP.

Yes, this was in Cyrodiil, and yes, its a pvp area. It was during an event, and pvpers abused the crap out of pvers who were trying to do event quests. Multiple players waited at a quest return, and ganked everyone who attempted to turn in the quest while they were in a loading door scene, repeatedly. How about the friends who rack up huge bounties, and take turns killing each other and splitting the gold? Gankers camping quest givers where they know players have to go for quests? Toggle on pvp, then toggle it off so the people you've harassed can't touch you? If there is a bounty system, how can you prevent "bounty hunters" from stopping players who want to do content they paid for, but ended up with a bounty accidentally? [Vvardenfall has a LOT of "you are trespassing" areas you have to go to for story reasons, its easy to get a bounty]. My opinion, personal opinion only, a toggle optional pvp open world would never work due to the mindset of some pvp players.

Tandor

hafgood wrote: »

Just leave this horse alone. It will never happen. You will get a few saying yes great idea, then realism sets in. People play this game because there is NO zonal PvP. PvP is limited to Cyrodiil, IC, BG's and duels, and unless an extra zone is introduced always will be.

Inter zonal PvP with a flag will just lead to a few players with the flag on (it would have to default to off) endlessly trying to find someone to kill. I PvP, my flag would be off. I don't want to be PvPing anywhere other than a PvP zone. I autodecline duels as I don't want to be fighting when going about my PvE experience.

Zos know this. They know it would be a waste of their time and money to implement. Its not going to happen no matter how often these threads pop up, which is probably weekly.

They also know it would drive away far more players than it would attract.

To the OP - if you want to play a PvE or consensual PvP game with the PvE and PvP areas largely segregated then play this one. If you want to play a pure PvP game or one where PvEers are harassed by PvPers because they won't play by their rules then play one. This is not that game, nor will it ever be.

Vevvev

I love PVP

I love PVE

I don't love PVP mixed with PVE.

I feel like I'm constantly having to watch my back in the Imperial City, and while it can be fun at times, I hate it when I'm fighting a boss and another hostile player takes advantage of my current distracted situation. Sometimes I beat them off but other times they kill me only to finish the boss off and take the loot. I quit games like Archeage over open world PVP like that.

UGotBenched91

JKorr wrote: »

UGotBenched91 wrote: »

JKorr wrote: »

Oh Divines. Not this again.

No. More than that, Oh hell no.

If ZOS wants to cater to the rabid competitive minority, start an open world pvp everywhere all the time kill everyone at any level server. All the open world pvp people can go there. And then, if past games are any indication, they can close the server in a year because there's no population.

ZOS has said there is no way to prevent abuse of any kind of bounty/gold/reward system. Camping spawn points, wayshrines, doors to thieves' refuges, quest givers, people racking up bounties and having friends kill them to split the gold....No. There are games with open world pvp out there. ESO isn't, thank the Divines, one of them.

Respectively, if ZOS stated there's no way to stop abuse, they are wrong. I played Lineage 2, the king of open world PVP, and people fought for spots, but it wasnt a giant issue that affecting the entire game. Also, the toggle option is the fix for this content. If people aren't toggled for PVP, they can't be ganked, killed, etc.

Again, not saying this belongs in ESO, just throwing my two cents in about open world PVP.

Yes, this was in Cyrodiil, and yes, its a pvp area. It was during an event, and pvpers abused the crap out of pvers who were trying to do event quests. Multiple players waited at a quest return, and ganked everyone who attempted to turn in the quest while they were in a loading door scene, repeatedly. How about the friends who rack up huge bounties, and take turns killing each other and splitting the gold? Gankers camping quest givers where they know players have to go for quests? Toggle on pvp, then toggle it off so the people you've harassed can't touch you? If there is a bounty system, how can you prevent "bounty hunters" from stopping players who want to do content they paid for, but ended up with a bounty accidentally? [Vvardenfall has a LOT of "you are trespassing" areas you have to go to for story reasons, its easy to get a bounty]. My opinion, personal opinion only, a toggle optional pvp open world would never work due to the mindset of some pvp players.

Hi @JKorr ,

I would expect a system to work that if both players don't toggle PVP then there's no way for player x to grief player y. For example, you can only attack other players who have toggled that they want to play in PVP. Make a countdown period that doesn't allow immediately toggling off. As for players accidentally bounty, a game could simply do what Lineage 2 does. (Using this game as a comparison a lot in this thread ). Since this game is not click-attack, make it where you have to hold a certain key on keyboard and then attack. For example, holding ctrl and then attacking someone. So, if you're just questing and someone jumps in front of you, you ownt hit them because you're not activating the player attack key.

Now, again, I'm not advocating for ESO to have a PVP option, I'm just more or less defending the fact that people are saying open PVP MMO's are just unfair, gank, and glitch fests which I believe is a dramatization. Could ESO have open world PVP aspects without tons of glitches, probably but not successfully.

Trinotops

It could easily work; other mmos have done it with success. I don't know why people insist that toggleable open world PvP world affect them in any way or somehow ruin the game when they could simply never enable it, and a system could be put in place to force it off in towns. Besides, I doubt anyone who actually cares about PvP would waste their time wandering around in the overland for lowbies to one-shot (you could even prevent AP gain from kills in the overland to further discourage this). I have never cared about questing or dailies or whatever and this would not change that in the slightest.

Daemons_Bane

Trinotops wrote: »

It could easily work; other mmos have done it with success. I don't know why people insist that toggleable open world PvP world affect them in any way or somehow ruin the game when they could simply never enable it, and a system could be put in place to force it off in towns. Besides, I doubt anyone who actually cares about PvP would waste their time wandering around in the overland for lowbies to one-shot (you could even prevent AP gain from kills in the overland to further discourage this). I have never cared about questing or dailies or whatever and this would not change that in the slightest.

For a start many of us would plain and simply hate to look at it.. And I love your optimism, but I can all but guarantee you that people would leave Cyrodiil to farm lowbies, AP or no AP

Tandor

Trinotops wrote: »

It could easily work; other mmos have done it with success. I don't know why people insist that toggleable open world PvP world affect them in any way or somehow ruin the game when they could simply never enable it, and a system could be put in place to force it off in towns. Besides, I doubt anyone who actually cares about PvP would waste their time wandering around in the overland for lowbies to one-shot (you could even prevent AP gain from kills in the overland to further discourage this). I have never cared about questing or dailies or whatever and this would not change that in the slightest.

Which already commercially successful and still growing PvE-centred MMORPGs designed with segregated and optional PvP have introduced open world PvP successfully some years after launch?