How do you think ZOS could keep enemy teams from working together?

vamp_emily

We had a similar situation happen on PC this weekend. AD/EP were teaming up on us which is normal but they took it to another level. They had players trying to gank you as soon as you left the base, and if you made it past those players they had a group of players sitting at the gates killing you.

Of course they had every reason to team up on us because DC was currently winning the campaign. However, even after we fell to second place both factions continued trying to put so much pressure on us.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that, it makes the game interesting. However, what makes me upset is that players on DC just don't want to fight fire with fire. They are all over the place until a semi-organized group takes over at some point in the evening and people start working together. We can have 20 people in chat talking about how to do something or where we should go but only a few actually show up to get farmed.

Faulric

vamp_emily wrote: »

We had a similar situation happen on PC this weekend. AD/EP were teaming up on us which is normal but they took it to another level. They had players trying to gank you as soon as you left the base, and if you made it past those players they had a group of players sitting at the gates killing you.

Of course they had every reason to team up on us because DC was currently winning the campaign. However, even after we fell to second place both factions continued trying to put so much pressure on us.

I don't think there is anything wrong with that, it makes the game interesting. However, what makes me upset is that players on DC just don't want to fight fire with fire. They are all over the place until a semi-organized group takes over at some point in the evening and people start working together. We can have 20 people in chat talking about how to do something or where we should go but only a few actually show up to get farmed.

I was there for that as well, Emily. I spend a solid hour protecting the road for DC to get out of High Rock. I can only stand getting tea-bagged so many times after 1vXing. It's always the [snip] snipe spam StamBlade in the back too..

I'm still trying to figure out how to get some coordination going in the morning/afternoons. I'm also tired of showing up to call-outs that end up being farmed because no ones there.

Keep fighting the good fight and I'll see you in Cyr!

[edited for profanity bypass]

Bergzorn

Gilvoth wrote: »

make keeps un-takeable unless you have 25 players on each of that keeps resources the entire time of taking a keep.
you Must have:
25 men on the Farm at all times
25 men on the Mine at all times
25 men on the Lumbermill at all times
and 25 players on Both keep flaggs in order to take a keep.

This is a new level of gilvothing.

LordOsiris

The theme is realy bad. Since the update "One Tamriell" in October 2016 loyalty in PVP is written with smallest letters. All the people with mixed chars of all fractions of course can never learn anything of loyalty for a team here. And watch those bull terrier in guilds which have all fractions in one guild. What do you think is coming out? And best is, the zone Chat of the one hated fraction is live streamed in Discord, so that it is useless to use the zone chat, cause enemies knows every move before you finished your sentence writing. With all that you get players online, which are no longer playing groups and guilds even if they want. If you call out for groups with a 100% chance you get at least one or two of enemies player in your group. This PVP is something for [snip] and people with dark soul, watch me, but for normal players also not connected to the hell the game in certain parts is simply unplayable, if you are not maximal inventive. If "One Tamriell" isn't taken out, there is no hope anymore for Cyrodiil. The concept failed!!! And therefor I canceled my plus Account after all the time, because no fun no money anymore. I don't wanna pay money to anger me day in day out about a state doesn't getting fixed and isn't planned well. Take all this with the realy bad performance in PVP (lags, unbalancing, cheater add ons, makro player ...) and you found out why the game who must not be named is sucking all our PVP gamer out. And ZOS isn't realizing?

[edited for profanity bypass]

EmperorIl

If you played DAOC back in the day you would know 3-way RvR is designed this way, so that the two weakest factions could focus the stronger if there were an imbalance. The problem in ESO is not the design (except one thing), it's the players. They don't get it, and typically what I see happening is while the strongest faction focuses on the weakest, the 3rd faction instead of hitting the stronger one as well will gang up on the weakest....just for easy points. The problem here the scoring system....it's stupid. DAOC was the greatest RvR to ever grace the gaming world and there was never such thing as a campaign or score. It simply was a persistent war. Cyrodiil needs a complete revamp in this regard.

DrSlaughtr

First of all, you can't stop it. It's the folly of a three faction system. Anyone who has ever played Risk with 3 people knows the score. It will always come down to 2 on 1.

The thing is, I hear people ALL THE TIME going on about team green this, team orange that. 99% of the time it's compete coincidence. If blue is attack red and yellow shows up because they saw a combat market, whoever loses will blame AD for helping the other faction.

I get that it's frustrating. But so long as there are 3 fashions and multiple campaigns, it will occur.

There should only be 1 CP and 1 No CP campaign. Having both GH and BR leads to constant alliance imbalances.

geonsocal

TheEndBringer wrote: »

First of all, you can't stop it. It's the folly of a three faction system. Anyone who has ever played Risk with 3 people knows the score. It will always come down to 2 on 1.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The thing is, I hear people ALL THE TIME going on about team green this, team orange that. 99% of the time it's compete coincidence. If blue is attack red and yellow shows up because they saw a combat market, whoever loses will blame AD for helping the other faction.

I get that it's frustrating. But so long as there are 3 fashions and multiple campaigns, it will occur.

i think discord disrupts the normal flow you describe...

DrSlaughtr

geonsocal wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

First of all, you can't stop it. It's the folly of a three faction system. Anyone who has ever played Risk with 3 people knows the score. It will always come down to 2 on 1.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The thing is, I hear people ALL THE TIME going on about team green this, team orange that. 99% of the time it's compete coincidence. If blue is attack red and yellow shows up because they saw a combat market, whoever loses will blame AD for helping the other faction.

I get that it's frustrating. But so long as there are 3 fashions and multiple campaigns, it will occur.

i think discord disrupts the normal flow you describe...

Not really sure what your gif is about. Make 3 people fight, one of them is getting tag tag teamed.

As for your second reply, yes of course there are guilds and groups who work together across alliances but it's not the majority on XB. I haven't played PC in a long time. Either way my point is that usually when someone cries about getting double teamed it's because that third faction showed up at a fight marker or flagged keep and caused chaos.

Iriidius

If the strongest alliance is as strong as the other 2 alliances you could disable PvP and taking Keeps/Ressoursses between the 2 weaker alliances so both alliances are forced to attack the strongest alliance. It is rational that the weaker 2 alliances fight each other because they are both to weak to take keeps/win battles against the strongest alliance. In battlegrounds it is even more rational to defend second place against 3rd alliance because first and second place both get 100k ep and third alliance gets almost nothing. Maybe you could also temporarely enable cross alliance teleport(as soon as the alliance between 2 alliances ends, players in the keep of the former ally are ported to their home base), cross alliance healing and grouping.

BlossomDead

I'm weirdly not bothered by this. All is fair in love & war.

xFocused

This was a huge issue last night on PS4 GH NA. DC had the entire left side of the map, EP had the entire right side of the map with AD holding BB & BM and their 2 scrolls. DC hit BB while EP hit BM and both scrolls were taken soon after from our temples. DC took 1 scroll, EP took the other. AD went from 3 full bars to 2 minutes after. Myself and other AD players logged out because it was pointless to even try to defend. I don't know if there's a fix to this but it's a ongoing issue, and as a longtime AD PvP player, I can tell you that this only seems to happen to us regularly. I wish I knew why we're the ones that get teamed up on so much but it's driving a lot of AD players away from the server. Eventually DC & EP will only have each other to fight and it's a issue that they keep causing. 3 bars always fighting 6 bars gets old after a while

wazzz56

xFocused wrote: »

This was a huge issue last night on PS4 GH NA. DC had the entire left side of the map, EP had the entire right side of the map with AD holding BB & BM and their 2 scrolls. DC hit BB while EP hit BM and both scrolls were taken soon after from our temples. DC took 1 scroll, EP took the other. AD went from 3 full bars to 2 minutes after. Myself and other AD players logged out because it was pointless to even try to defend. I don't know if there's a fix to this but it's a ongoing issue, and as a longtime AD PvP player, I can tell you that this only seems to happen to us regularly. I wish I knew why we're the ones that get teamed up on so much but it's driving a lot of AD players away from the server. Eventually DC & EP will only have each other to fight and it's a issue that they keep causing. 3 bars always fighting 6 bars gets old after a while

it happens, but the ad running to br have ruined what was a great pvp environment for ad in blackreach...where it used to be a few ad fighting much larger numbers of dc and ep (which was extremely fun and made for great outnumbered pvp) now ad zergs from gh have ruined the campaign...zerging it to the gates and intensely defending home keeps of other alliances...it has now chased many ep and dc that played in there to gh....and they probably are more than happy to take part in the gating ad party as a bit of retribution for what they experienced in br...

xFocused

wazzz56 wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

This was a huge issue last night on PS4 GH NA. DC had the entire left side of the map, EP had the entire right side of the map with AD holding BB & BM and their 2 scrolls. DC hit BB while EP hit BM and both scrolls were taken soon after from our temples. DC took 1 scroll, EP took the other. AD went from 3 full bars to 2 minutes after. Myself and other AD players logged out because it was pointless to even try to defend. I don't know if there's a fix to this but it's a ongoing issue, and as a longtime AD PvP player, I can tell you that this only seems to happen to us regularly. I wish I knew why we're the ones that get teamed up on so much but it's driving a lot of AD players away from the server. Eventually DC & EP will only have each other to fight and it's a issue that they keep causing. 3 bars always fighting 6 bars gets old after a while

it happens, but the ad running to br have ruined what was a great pvp environment for ad in blackreach...where it used to be a few ad fighting much larger numbers of dc and ep (which was extremely fun and made for great outnumbered pvp) now ad zergs from gh have ruined the campaign...zerging it to the gates and intensely defending home keeps of other alliances...it has now chased many ep and dc that played in there to gh....and they probably are more than happy to take part in the gating ad party as a bit of retribution for what they experienced in br...

I understand the frustration that comes from BR. I've been wanting to switch over to BR due to the insane amount of lag, bluescreens, skills not going off, etc that constantly happens in GH but every time I look at the map, it's all yellow, and I'm a AD player, never been on any other faction. I personally don't agree with ANY alliance teaming up or locking the entire map. AD included. Like you said, it ruins campaigns, it pushes players away and overall makes PvP a bad experience

RaikaNA

Tonight in Ravenwatch (NA server) DC decided to team purple by siding with EP to get them emp.. Us AD was fighting for our lives at Ash... DC didn't do anything to prevent ep from emping.. they instead went to Ash, and fought us instead of the EP. Both EP and DC were working together... it's hard to hide at this point.

DC tried luring us away from Ash by taking Nik.. when that didn't work.. .after taking nik from us (to prevent us from rezzing there) they took Fare and eventually started working on taking our trikeeps. It was pathetic at this point.

xFocused

RaikaNA wrote: »

Tonight in Ravenwatch (NA server) DC decided to team purple by siding with EP to get them emp.. Us AD was fighting for our lives at Ash... DC didn't do anything to prevent ep from emping.. they instead went to Ash, and fought us instead of the EP. Both EP and DC were working together... it's hard to hide at this point.

DC tried luring us away from Ash by taking Nik.. when that didn't work.. .after taking nik from us (to prevent us from rezzing there) they took Fare and eventually started working on taking our trikeeps. It was pathetic at this point.

This is why I left GH the other night. There was not a single DC or EP keep, town, resource, anything flagged up north. BM was flagged by EP and BB was flagged by DC with our scrolls being taken minutes after they flipped. There was no denying that they were teaming up on AD and I honestly don't know why but it happened and we went to 2 bars AD shortly after. I'll be staying in BR from now on after that night

wazzz56

xFocused wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Tonight in Ravenwatch (NA server) DC decided to team purple by siding with EP to get them emp.. Us AD was fighting for our lives at Ash... DC didn't do anything to prevent ep from emping.. they instead went to Ash, and fought us instead of the EP. Both EP and DC were working together... it's hard to hide at this point.

DC tried luring us away from Ash by taking Nik.. when that didn't work.. .after taking nik from us (to prevent us from rezzing there) they took Fare and eventually started working on taking our trikeeps. It was pathetic at this point.

This is why I left GH the other night. There was not a single DC or EP keep, town, resource, anything flagged up north. BM was flagged by EP and BB was flagged by DC with our scrolls being taken minutes after they flipped. There was no denying that they were teaming up on AD and I honestly don't know why but it happened and we went to 2 bars AD shortly after. I'll be staying in BR from now on after that night

@xFocused please..no more gh ad transplants into br......the population is already out of whack and it really does not need to keep being dominated by ad like it has been the past month

xFocused

wazzz56 wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Tonight in Ravenwatch (NA server) DC decided to team purple by siding with EP to get them emp.. Us AD was fighting for our lives at Ash... DC didn't do anything to prevent ep from emping.. they instead went to Ash, and fought us instead of the EP. Both EP and DC were working together... it's hard to hide at this point.

DC tried luring us away from Ash by taking Nik.. when that didn't work.. .after taking nik from us (to prevent us from rezzing there) they took Fare and eventually started working on taking our trikeeps. It was pathetic at this point.

This is why I left GH the other night. There was not a single DC or EP keep, town, resource, anything flagged up north. BM was flagged by EP and BB was flagged by DC with our scrolls being taken minutes after they flipped. There was no denying that they were teaming up on AD and I honestly don't know why but it happened and we went to 2 bars AD shortly after. I'll be staying in BR from now on after that night

@xFocused please..no more gh ad transplants into br......the population is already out of whack and it really does not need to keep being dominated by ad like it has been the past month

Which again, I agree with you. If the map is yellow, I don't even bother logging into BR, I'll go and find something else to do. I personally don't want a all yellow map because then there's no fighting, no AP to make and ruins the overall experience. I only plan on playing BR when there's actual keeps to take and so forth. Midyear Mayhem will be fun in there but GH is just unplayable in my opinion anymore and I can't bring myself to stay in there

guarstompemoji

Any alliance I play on, within 5 minutes, someone will think the other two sides are working together, and being reasonably upset about this possibility...also becomes convinced of it, and the shouting will go on for hours.

Not saying it doesn't happen, only that these accusations occur hourly and on all factions. From playing on different factions, or just having friends in different factions, often what seems like an alliance, isn't--it's taking an opportunity, such as going after the second place alliance when you're third, because first is currently too strong to get AP. Or, going after the first place because you are strong enough at that moment, and because, well, they're first.

Otoh, I know that it can happen. ...I just don't suspect it's as often as it's made out to be, as consistent, or at the scale of. ...nor do I trust such an alliance would not fall apart and its members setting at eachothers' throats once the objective is met. It's pvp, after all.

Faction loyalty can also go too far: guilds at minimum kicking and banning, or at worse, declaring lifetime bounties on anyone logged into a different alliance in PvE. Before someone declares this an isolated case, it's in some guilds' policy books.

The healthiest environment has players knowing eachother, respecting eachother, and getting along, no matter the color, but agreeing to play the game.

DrSlaughtr

It's impossible for one alliance to not get sandwiched. The only way for it to not happens is for every player to do a coordinated dance. DC pushes red home keeps. EP pushed yellow. AD pushes blue. It will never happen.

Feaky

I've done some brainstorming on this.

Something to consider is to change the how AP is awarded to discourage this imbalanced teaming behaviors. First, I would add a more advanced AP scaling mechanism for capturing and defending keeps that would be based on a combination of population and how many keeps/resources an alliance has. This would be in addition to current multipliers. Alliances each have 6 home keeps, 2 outposts and 18 farms, etc., so add multipliers such as +10%/5%/1% for each additional resource they have when opposing alliances capture one of them. So if an alliance currently has 8 keeps, 4 outposts and 20 farms, etc. then opposing alliances would get 32% AP bonus (+20%+10%+2%) when capturing one of their resources. The opposite applies when attacking an alliance with a few remaining resources. For example if they had just 3 tri-keeps and 6 remaining farms, etc. then they would have a 52% reduction (-30%-10%-12%) in AP when taking further resources. So you would have some pretty significant differences when targeting stronger vs weaker alliances. This would make it primarily a strategic decision to gate someone after you taken their scrolls more than an AP farm.

In summary, apply an AP attack bonus/penalty to an alliance when attacking an opposing alliance based on how much of the map the opposing alliance currently has. The more they have, the more AP you earn and vice versa.

Defending keeps would work similarly. The same type of resource bonuses would be applied. For example, if you just have tri-keeps and 6 farms, etc., you would earn defense AP bonus of 52% (+30%+10%+12% based on above resource bonuses). This would almost guarantee a low population alliance getting huge defense ticks when defending their last few keeps against 2 other alliances.

In summary again, apply potential AP defense bonuses to an alliance when defending against an opposing alliance based on how much of their home keeps/resources the defending alliance currently has left.

Add additional AP bonuses for low population. If you are currently at a population disadvantage when defense tick is applied, additional bonuses could be awarded. I would make AP gained from low population bonuses based on current population levels, and keep it modest since we are adding other multipliers. For example +10% bonus if you are at a 2 bar advantage from the attacking or defending alliance. Also, fix the low population bonus for campaign scoring. It seems it has been off for the past year quite a lot, and because of that, has had a significant impact on campaign scoring. Remove AP bonuses from low population campaign scoring, and use the advanced AP multiplier system that awards bonuses based on keeps/resources and current population that I described above.

There are already AP multipliers in the game for other purposes, so this type of idea appears to have been added already for different purposes. I think much of the player base is primarily focused on obtaining AP, this would encourage more lucrative targets. It would also discourage 2 strong alliances from repeatedly bullying a faction after taking much of their map and scrolls.

Lastly, I'd increase the time interval for repeated kills on the same players to continue to discourage ball groups not playing the map. Each faction has a few of them running several nights a week and they rarely fight each other. Most are bullies preying on weaker PUGs. Right now, they make enormous amounts of AP on player kills, that most of the time, have little to do with campaign tactics. Most just run circles in keeps or grab scrolls and run around hill tops so people will chase them. Unfortunately, doing so distracts huge populations of people and sometimes it can be hard to ignore them. Reducing how much AP is earned in this capacity might influence more balance as they would be encouraged to, at least, "play the map" opposed to bullying weaker PUGs.

This is just brainstorming. Obviously the percentages and specifics would need to be thought out further and tested. Most likely adjustments would need to be made. Or we can keep it the way it is and accept that double teaming is just part of Cyrodiil. But when 2 alliances continue to double team the weaker alliance even after taking their scrolls and reducing them to tri-keeps or less, it just discourages people from playing. It usually takes a major population shift to break out of the cycle.

FannyWarden

Feaky wrote: »

I've done some brainstorming on this.

Something to consider is to change the how AP is awarded to discourage this imbalanced teaming behaviors. First, I would add a more advanced AP scaling mechanism for capturing and defending keeps that would be based on a combination of population and how many keeps/resources an alliance has. This would be in addition to current multipliers. Alliances each have 6 home keeps, 2 outposts and 18 farms, etc., so add multipliers such as +10%/5%/1% for each additional resource they have when opposing alliances capture one of them. So if an alliance currently has 8 keeps, 4 outposts and 20 farms, etc. then opposing alliances would get 32% AP bonus (+20%+10%+2%) when capturing one of their resources. The opposite applies when attacking an alliance with a few remaining resources. For example if they had just 3 tri-keeps and 6 remaining farms, etc. then they would have a 52% reduction (-30%-10%-12%) in AP when taking further resources. So you would have some pretty significant differences when targeting stronger vs weaker alliances. This would make it primarily a strategic decision to gate someone after you taken their scrolls more than an AP farm.

...

Love it!

DrSlaughtr

Respectively, no one is teaming up. Every players thinks they're getting double teamed. The nature of having 3 alliances is that it's always going to get like two are attacking one. It's coincidence.

If EP is hitting blue Ales and AD is hitting blue Roe, every DC player is crying about team orange. In reality they just picked those targets based on what the map looks like, population and ease of access.

The only time you have coordination between colors is in small scale where a guild or group of friends are splitting between two alliances. Even then that's rare, and it's only a small amount of the population.

If EP is trying to take back BRK from AD and blues ride from chal to back door, there was no sinister Team Green plot. It's happenstance.

biminirwb17_ESO

When keep claim say Blame x player and hate whispers say this is because you cheated to win the last campaign, plus you can set your clock by the "collusion" times of day - sorry this is not the normal team green orange or purple. It is guild leaders from different factions working together.

Unless we call out this behavior and "police" how the game is played nothing will change. Don't complain, say no I wont attack the team in last place with no scrolls and you shouldn't be doing it either.

jerj6925

Remove the 3rd faction, it's not like pvp has anything to do with game lore.

Quackery

By removing a third alliance and making it proper pvp.

xFocused

By making Cyrodiil 2 alliances instead of 3. This has been suggested so many times and could be a fairly simple fix. Split the map down the middle. Until then, you're going to have 2 alliances helping each other gate 1. It was happening yesterday on the PS NA Server. AD had both of DC's scrolls and instead of trying to get those back, DC joined AD in gating EP, lmao, yet you'll still get the ones who will cry "there's no teaming up!"

jbrianj

Anotherone773 wrote: »

I never liked the 3 faction setup myself. It doesn't add any value to the game and causes quite a lot of problems. Its great for PVE stories but when it comes to doing PVP it is really just a hindrance.

No, 3 factions make things so much more interesting as long as people don't intentionally work together. I'm pretty sure working together on purpose is against the ToS, but it isn't being enforced at all. 2 faction WvW would be so incredibly boring.

Jamie_Aubrey

They simply CAN'T

Take last night EP on Alessia Bridge and a DC strolls up and walks right past, EP didn't even move to attack, but AD roll up and all hell breaks loose

Also we ( AD ) kept running between Roe/Alessia defending both keeps while nothing was happening up north

Udrath

I’d really like to see enemy names/guild tags blacked out so there is no way of knowing who’s who, and all death recaps being anonymous. The only way of recognising players is by their outfit. A lot people will avoid attacking their buddies intentionally, myself included, but if nobody knows that’d make PvP a lot more fun imo. The only person that should have a name of their head is the emperor lol

darvaria

TWO alliances and that would work. ONLY thing that will work. Reduce size of map and make equal population ques. This would also spread some ppl to other campaigns.