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Recent PvP changes

Waseem
Waseem
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Came back to ESO and would like to express my opinion in the recent changes:

1)Group size is now 12 instead 24: that's stupid Cyrodiil was meant for large scale PvP
2) You can only heal your group members: this is beyond stupidity, this is an insult to both the players and the whole faction based PvP

These changes has to be reverted immediately.

[snip]

BRING WROBEL BACK

[Edited to remove Bashing and Rude Comments]
Edited by ZOS_ConnorG on January 2, 2021 1:40PM
PC EU

  • relentless_turnip
    relentless_turnip
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    Perhaps the compromise would be to instead make the radius for healing an ally very small. 7m maybe... As you can't control who you are healing anyway as smart healing kicks in(aside from the few conals) this way we can heal anyone but it only calculates a small radius around the player. I think to ensure a net gain on the number of calculations we would have to stop the same heals stacking i.e only one regen, reapplying refreshes the effect. Possibly an option to have self healing only within the options.
  • GrimTheReaper45
    GrimTheReaper45
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    Again, very disappointed to hear about these changes. Would prefer if they were reverted and zos focused on spreading out the 24 man groups by working on altering objectives and rewards to encourage groups.
  • Godspeed
    Godspeed
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    It’s sad how this game started out as one of if not the best pvp mmo on the market.

    Then the lighting patch came. Now a few years and many changes including the most recent later. ESO is now the worst mmo pvp wise on the market.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Godspeed wrote: »
    It’s sad how this game started out as one of if not the best pvp mmo on the market.

    Then the lighting patch came. Now a few years and many changes including the most recent later. ESO is now the worst mmo pvp wise on the market.

    Yeah, I mean, I can understand the bind ZOS was in. Can you really be a great PVP MMO if your system is publicly vulnerable to hacking and cheating? Meteor spam makes for bad publicity.

    It's just a pity that their solution of moving everything server-side seems to have been very much less than ideal in the long term.
  • redspecter23
    redspecter23
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    The most confusing part of this change was the "reasoning". ZOS declared that they found no meaningful performance impact from any of the tests and that they would not be making any changes. In the very next breath, they announced the 12 member cap and healing limitation.

    I must have missed how "no changes" translated into 2 changes.
  • ThePedge
    ThePedge
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    ThePedge wrote: »
    2. Very good change.
    I will disagree. Strongly.

    This change has divided the player-base (to a point I have never seen in ESO or any other mmo game). You don't do that in MMOs. You do not divide player base like that, especially if you want new players to join PvP. Remember, ESO was successful because for the most part it stayed true to its motto: "Play as you want" This change however... umm.... kinda nope.

    It is very weird and inconsistent. I mean, you can not heal other players, but you can res them or place a camp for them. Also, if they have for example Vicious Death on them and are about to die, you can not heal them... but you still get damaged by Vicious Death proc.
    No cross-healing means that there should also be no cross-dmg too...

    ^ Logic behind this is the same as behind cross-healing removal. I hope that maybe it shows how weird and out of place cross healing removal feels like... (Yeah, imagine if group could not deal dmg to solo players and vice-versa... :open_mouth: ).

    Also, I would kinda understand this change if it brought some reasonable server performance improvement... but it did not, performance is the same as before (kinda bad), and on top of it we can not heal each other. Pretty much only ones that think this was good idea are "old stagers" elitists type of players who for whatever reason think that Cyro is just their's guild's playground, and no one else is welcome.

    Sorry for any accidental offence (if there was any). I am just expressing my opinion.

    Performance is still bad, yes, but it's best it's been since Harrowstorm.

    You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective. I see nothing wrong with that.

    You can play a redguard nightblade healer, of course. Is it a good idea? No.

    You can play solo in Cyrodiil, you can play solo as a healer in Cyrodiil, is it a good idea? No.

    They slightly raised the skill floor for healing in Cyrodiil in that you now need to be able to join and follow a group.
    Edited by ThePedge on January 7, 2021 10:24AM
  • Ryath_Waylander
    Ryath_Waylander
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    Hmm and are you a healer pray tell?
  • Waseem
    Waseem
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    Hmm and are you a healer pray tell?

    I am a player, apparently speaking on behalf the thousands of players who already quit PvP after playing for YEARS thanks to reduction in groups size
    PC EU

  • ThePedge
    ThePedge
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ThePedge wrote: »
    ThePedge wrote: »
    2. Very good change.
    I will disagree. Strongly.

    This change has divided the player-base (to a point I have never seen in ESO or any other mmo game). You don't do that in MMOs. You do not divide player base like that, especially if you want new players to join PvP. Remember, ESO was successful because for the most part it stayed true to its motto: "Play as you want" This change however... umm.... kinda nope.

    It is very weird and inconsistent. I mean, you can not heal other players, but you can res them or place a camp for them. Also, if they have for example Vicious Death on them and are about to die, you can not heal them... but you still get damaged by Vicious Death proc.
    No cross-healing means that there should also be no cross-dmg too...

    ^ Logic behind this is the same as behind cross-healing removal. I hope that maybe it shows how weird and out of place cross healing removal feels like... (Yeah, imagine if group could not deal dmg to solo players and vice-versa... :open_mouth: ).

    Also, I would kinda understand this change if it brought some reasonable server performance improvement... but it did not, performance is the same as before (kinda bad), and on top of it we can not heal each other. Pretty much only ones that think this was good idea are "old stagers" elitists type of players who for whatever reason think that Cyro is just their's guild's playground, and no one else is welcome.

    Sorry for any accidental offence (if there was any). I am just expressing my opinion.

    Performance is still bad, yes, but it's best it's been since Harrowstorm.

    You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective. I see nothing wrong with that.

    You can play a redguard nightblade healer, of course. Is it a good idea? No.

    You can play solo in Cyrodiil, you can play solo as a healer in Cyrodiil, is it a good idea? No.

    They slightly raised the skill floor for healing in Cyrodiil in that you now need to be able to join and follow a group.

    @ThePedge
    "You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective"

    I disagree. In my opinion the change to disallow ungrouped healing differs from all other changes like skill buffs/nerfs etc in that it makes a certain role/playstyle impossible not simply ineffective.

    Prior to the change to healing, if you wanted to play as healer or hybrid dps/healer but not be in a group (for which there are many reasons, for examples see https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7067439#Comment_7067439 which I'm sure you have read but linking it for anyone else who is interested) then you could. And you could pick any race/class build you want but it would vary in effectiveness, as you point out.

    So yes, I could be a redguard nightblade healer if I wanted. Sure it might not be optimal but I could do it and still perform the role that I want to.
    And for many they would be happy to do that because how they have fun in the game is tied to the role they play and the type of character they play so they are willing to give up a bit of effectiveness or have a harder time as long as they can meet those things.

    Following the healing change it is basically impossible to play as a healer without being in a group. Not ineffective, but impossible.
    So if that style of play is how a player primarily enjoyed playing, then they are out of luck. It's not like they can choose to do it but be less effective, they simply can no longer choose to play like that at all.

    In my case I am one of those players. I was happy to keep playing the way I wanted despite it becoming comparatively weaker over time (especially compared to others). My preferred character in Cyrodiil is a hybrid dps/healer melee magblade and even though I am less successful on it than other options its still the character I want to play. I don't mind that its less effective, for me its about having fun. But, for many of the reasons listed in the previously linked posts, I prefer to play ungrouped. Primarily, I enjoy the freedom and independence it brings, but still like interacting and being able to assist with my fellow alliance-mates when and how I choose.

    The healing change prevents this character from functioning how I want it to. Could I change the build or join groups to address this? Sure, but that would mean the character is no longer fulfilling the role and feel want it to. I would no longer have fun playing it.
    So I don't. Play that is. Or hardly at all since the change. Not that not playing is to make point or anything, but simply: The change means I no longer enjoy playing like I used to, so I don't feel the desire to play.

    So while I get that this change may not negatively impact you, in fact it may indirectly benefit your rate of success because it has disadvantaged some of your opponents, please understand that for others out there like myself it has meant we can no longer enjoy the game as we previously could. Consider what your position would be if ZOS made a some other restriction that simply made your preferred playstyle(s) impossible.

    Plus I just don't see what the benefits to the game as a whole are.
    Performance? ZOS have said this wasn't improved. Beyond the comment by ZOS while there have been comments both ways its all anecdotal and it doesn't really seem like anything has changed.
    My smart heals now always target me when solo? Surely there is a better way to achieve this (ie: the skills themselves), rather than making skills no longer function as they are described or were designed.
    What else is there? Faction stack is weakened, groups are empowered? This just seems like a nerf or buff depending on your playstyle so is a bit of a wash.

    I guess that's why I don't understand the outrage.
    "Solo" healing makes no sense, because if you're alone then who are you healing?
    If you're with a big group of your own faction, just join their group, no? Problem avoided.

    Around 80% of the fights I'm in is just me or my group vs the other faction(s). That's how we like to play, we play as 2-6 and fight larger groups or zergs. Not always to much success but it's what fun to us.

    Are we "elitists", I don't think so. However most of the time you still lose purely based on numbers. Before this change you could barely kill anyone in a zerg because they could get healed by up to like 20 people around them all with Resto staves.
    Numbers won fights, not skill, not co-ordination, just pure numbers.

    Defending keeps outnumbered was impossible as every enemy you attacked had multiple healers and purges.
    Now, if that player is "solo" and doesn't react, just tried to keep sieging while under attack, he dies as he should.
  • ExistingRug61
    ExistingRug61
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    ThePedge wrote: »
    ThePedge wrote: »
    ThePedge wrote: »
    2. Very good change.
    I will disagree. Strongly.

    This change has divided the player-base (to a point I have never seen in ESO or any other mmo game). You don't do that in MMOs. You do not divide player base like that, especially if you want new players to join PvP. Remember, ESO was successful because for the most part it stayed true to its motto: "Play as you want" This change however... umm.... kinda nope.

    It is very weird and inconsistent. I mean, you can not heal other players, but you can res them or place a camp for them. Also, if they have for example Vicious Death on them and are about to die, you can not heal them... but you still get damaged by Vicious Death proc.
    No cross-healing means that there should also be no cross-dmg too...

    ^ Logic behind this is the same as behind cross-healing removal. I hope that maybe it shows how weird and out of place cross healing removal feels like... (Yeah, imagine if group could not deal dmg to solo players and vice-versa... :open_mouth: ).

    Also, I would kinda understand this change if it brought some reasonable server performance improvement... but it did not, performance is the same as before (kinda bad), and on top of it we can not heal each other. Pretty much only ones that think this was good idea are "old stagers" elitists type of players who for whatever reason think that Cyro is just their's guild's playground, and no one else is welcome.

    Sorry for any accidental offence (if there was any). I am just expressing my opinion.

    Performance is still bad, yes, but it's best it's been since Harrowstorm.

    You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective. I see nothing wrong with that.

    You can play a redguard nightblade healer, of course. Is it a good idea? No.

    You can play solo in Cyrodiil, you can play solo as a healer in Cyrodiil, is it a good idea? No.

    They slightly raised the skill floor for healing in Cyrodiil in that you now need to be able to join and follow a group.

    @ThePedge
    "You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective"

    I disagree. In my opinion the change to disallow ungrouped healing differs from all other changes like skill buffs/nerfs etc in that it makes a certain role/playstyle impossible not simply ineffective.

    Prior to the change to healing, if you wanted to play as healer or hybrid dps/healer but not be in a group (for which there are many reasons, for examples see https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7067439#Comment_7067439 which I'm sure you have read but linking it for anyone else who is interested) then you could. And you could pick any race/class build you want but it would vary in effectiveness, as you point out.

    So yes, I could be a redguard nightblade healer if I wanted. Sure it might not be optimal but I could do it and still perform the role that I want to.
    And for many they would be happy to do that because how they have fun in the game is tied to the role they play and the type of character they play so they are willing to give up a bit of effectiveness or have a harder time as long as they can meet those things.

    Following the healing change it is basically impossible to play as a healer without being in a group. Not ineffective, but impossible.
    So if that style of play is how a player primarily enjoyed playing, then they are out of luck. It's not like they can choose to do it but be less effective, they simply can no longer choose to play like that at all.

    In my case I am one of those players. I was happy to keep playing the way I wanted despite it becoming comparatively weaker over time (especially compared to others). My preferred character in Cyrodiil is a hybrid dps/healer melee magblade and even though I am less successful on it than other options its still the character I want to play. I don't mind that its less effective, for me its about having fun. But, for many of the reasons listed in the previously linked posts, I prefer to play ungrouped. Primarily, I enjoy the freedom and independence it brings, but still like interacting and being able to assist with my fellow alliance-mates when and how I choose.

    The healing change prevents this character from functioning how I want it to. Could I change the build or join groups to address this? Sure, but that would mean the character is no longer fulfilling the role and feel want it to. I would no longer have fun playing it.
    So I don't. Play that is. Or hardly at all since the change. Not that not playing is to make point or anything, but simply: The change means I no longer enjoy playing like I used to, so I don't feel the desire to play.

    So while I get that this change may not negatively impact you, in fact it may indirectly benefit your rate of success because it has disadvantaged some of your opponents, please understand that for others out there like myself it has meant we can no longer enjoy the game as we previously could. Consider what your position would be if ZOS made a some other restriction that simply made your preferred playstyle(s) impossible.

    Plus I just don't see what the benefits to the game as a whole are.
    Performance? ZOS have said this wasn't improved. Beyond the comment by ZOS while there have been comments both ways its all anecdotal and it doesn't really seem like anything has changed.
    My smart heals now always target me when solo? Surely there is a better way to achieve this (ie: the skills themselves), rather than making skills no longer function as they are described or were designed.
    What else is there? Faction stack is weakened, groups are empowered? This just seems like a nerf or buff depending on your playstyle so is a bit of a wash.

    I guess that's why I don't understand the outrage.
    "Solo" healing makes no sense, because if you're alone then who are you healing?
    If you're with a big group of your own faction, just join their group, no? Problem avoided.

    Around 80% of the fights I'm in is just me or my group vs the other faction(s). That's how we like to play, we play as 2-6 and fight larger groups or zergs. Not always to much success but it's what fun to us.

    Are we "elitists", I don't think so. However most of the time you still lose purely based on numbers. Before this change you could barely kill anyone in a zerg because they could get healed by up to like 20 people around them all with Resto staves.
    Numbers won fights, not skill, not co-ordination, just pure numbers.

    Defending keeps outnumbered was impossible as every enemy you attacked had multiple healers and purges.
    Now, if that player is "solo" and doesn't react, just tried to keep sieging while under attack, he dies as he should.

    I guess this comes from a difference in our play experience.

    Some context on how I enjoy playing:
    Most of the time in Cyrodiil I am "ungrouped". I say that rather than "solo" as I am not a "solo" player in that I am not trying to be out there on my own, but neither do I normally run around with the big group or faction stack. In fact most of the time I end up with a similar number of players as you group with (2-6). The difference is how we end up in these situations, and the fact that where you are always with the same group of 2-6 so being in a group is no issue, whereas I am normally around a small number of players as well, but those players are constantly changing.
    Also its not like I am trying to just be a healer, but neither am I a pure dps with backbar resto occasionally tossing out regen. (although I do have backbar resto due to no other option). Rather I am somewhat of a hybrid dps/heals (I normally have a couple of group heals and buffs and used to have radiating not rapid regen for the same reason), not specialising in either but able to be adequate at both. It meant that when I find myself with some other random players I could flexibly fill into whatever seemed to be lacking, ie: if there were other healers around then I would be offensive, but if heals were lacking I would on the fly swap more into that role.

    It sounds like you have a group that you probably play with consistently and you all want to do a similar thing (correct me if I am mistaken), which is great. My play is generally less consistent and at inconsistent times, often at lower populations (Aus, XBox), and while I do have some guilds with people I can run with, a lot of the time I might not sync up with them time wise or other times if I'm just on for a bit I might just want to not bother with that and go to wherever I think a fun fight may be.

    Generally speaking I avoid the faction stack and big group fights (big blob fights are not a great place for my melee nightblade to shine, and lag is especially punishing as I am squishy as) and instead prefer to do things like jump around between keeps that are under attack by the other smaller enemy groups or running off to take outposts and towns, generally ending up finding maybe a handful of other players (who constantly change) from my alliance doing the same. And in that situation, despite the fact that we weren't grouped, previously you could still work with and try to co-ordinate with those few other players around you to defeat an enemy group. And in such situation it was possible to defeat a larger enemy group (when defending anyway) provided you played together well and weren't too heavily outnumbered (in which case as you point out large numbers just win). This is where being a sort of hybrid dps/healer build is useful, as I never really know what sort of players I will end up being around, but I want to be able to assist them in the most useful way regardless. Which isn't really possible anymore. I can't just rock up at a keep to help defend that happens to have a few other players and go into "healer mode" because I notice that the other couple of players are dps focused.

    I know in some of the other threads this sort of example has been a bit dismissed as a bit of a contrived or specific example, but really, this is what I (previously) spent most my time doing (and enjoying) in Cyrodiil. It's also why when people just try to come back with the "just group up" as a solution I get a bit put off as I know from past experience that doesn't work for me as it doesn't allow me to do what I want as much so I don't enjoy playing as much.

    I mean sure I could somehow try to join a group with the players I find at whichever place I happen to end up at, but then leave group a few minutes later when I go off on my own way again, only to have to repeat that whole process again with another different couple of players I find at the next location. Its just too much hassle, and sometime not really feasible (trying to group up with a few other people while you're trying madly to defend a town or keep from a bigger group for instance).
    Edited by ExistingRug61 on January 8, 2021 2:27AM
  • ThePedge
    ThePedge
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ThePedge wrote: »
    ThePedge wrote: »
    ThePedge wrote: »
    2. Very good change.
    I will disagree. Strongly.

    This change has divided the player-base (to a point I have never seen in ESO or any other mmo game). You don't do that in MMOs. You do not divide player base like that, especially if you want new players to join PvP. Remember, ESO was successful because for the most part it stayed true to its motto: "Play as you want" This change however... umm.... kinda nope.

    It is very weird and inconsistent. I mean, you can not heal other players, but you can res them or place a camp for them. Also, if they have for example Vicious Death on them and are about to die, you can not heal them... but you still get damaged by Vicious Death proc.
    No cross-healing means that there should also be no cross-dmg too...

    ^ Logic behind this is the same as behind cross-healing removal. I hope that maybe it shows how weird and out of place cross healing removal feels like... (Yeah, imagine if group could not deal dmg to solo players and vice-versa... :open_mouth: ).

    Also, I would kinda understand this change if it brought some reasonable server performance improvement... but it did not, performance is the same as before (kinda bad), and on top of it we can not heal each other. Pretty much only ones that think this was good idea are "old stagers" elitists type of players who for whatever reason think that Cyro is just their's guild's playground, and no one else is welcome.

    Sorry for any accidental offence (if there was any). I am just expressing my opinion.

    Performance is still bad, yes, but it's best it's been since Harrowstorm.

    You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective. I see nothing wrong with that.

    You can play a redguard nightblade healer, of course. Is it a good idea? No.

    You can play solo in Cyrodiil, you can play solo as a healer in Cyrodiil, is it a good idea? No.

    They slightly raised the skill floor for healing in Cyrodiil in that you now need to be able to join and follow a group.

    @ThePedge
    "You can still play the game as you want, you just might not be effective"

    I disagree. In my opinion the change to disallow ungrouped healing differs from all other changes like skill buffs/nerfs etc in that it makes a certain role/playstyle impossible not simply ineffective.

    Prior to the change to healing, if you wanted to play as healer or hybrid dps/healer but not be in a group (for which there are many reasons, for examples see https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7067439#Comment_7067439 which I'm sure you have read but linking it for anyone else who is interested) then you could. And you could pick any race/class build you want but it would vary in effectiveness, as you point out.

    So yes, I could be a redguard nightblade healer if I wanted. Sure it might not be optimal but I could do it and still perform the role that I want to.
    And for many they would be happy to do that because how they have fun in the game is tied to the role they play and the type of character they play so they are willing to give up a bit of effectiveness or have a harder time as long as they can meet those things.

    Following the healing change it is basically impossible to play as a healer without being in a group. Not ineffective, but impossible.
    So if that style of play is how a player primarily enjoyed playing, then they are out of luck. It's not like they can choose to do it but be less effective, they simply can no longer choose to play like that at all.

    In my case I am one of those players. I was happy to keep playing the way I wanted despite it becoming comparatively weaker over time (especially compared to others). My preferred character in Cyrodiil is a hybrid dps/healer melee magblade and even though I am less successful on it than other options its still the character I want to play. I don't mind that its less effective, for me its about having fun. But, for many of the reasons listed in the previously linked posts, I prefer to play ungrouped. Primarily, I enjoy the freedom and independence it brings, but still like interacting and being able to assist with my fellow alliance-mates when and how I choose.

    The healing change prevents this character from functioning how I want it to. Could I change the build or join groups to address this? Sure, but that would mean the character is no longer fulfilling the role and feel want it to. I would no longer have fun playing it.
    So I don't. Play that is. Or hardly at all since the change. Not that not playing is to make point or anything, but simply: The change means I no longer enjoy playing like I used to, so I don't feel the desire to play.

    So while I get that this change may not negatively impact you, in fact it may indirectly benefit your rate of success because it has disadvantaged some of your opponents, please understand that for others out there like myself it has meant we can no longer enjoy the game as we previously could. Consider what your position would be if ZOS made a some other restriction that simply made your preferred playstyle(s) impossible.

    Plus I just don't see what the benefits to the game as a whole are.
    Performance? ZOS have said this wasn't improved. Beyond the comment by ZOS while there have been comments both ways its all anecdotal and it doesn't really seem like anything has changed.
    My smart heals now always target me when solo? Surely there is a better way to achieve this (ie: the skills themselves), rather than making skills no longer function as they are described or were designed.
    What else is there? Faction stack is weakened, groups are empowered? This just seems like a nerf or buff depending on your playstyle so is a bit of a wash.

    I guess that's why I don't understand the outrage.
    "Solo" healing makes no sense, because if you're alone then who are you healing?
    If you're with a big group of your own faction, just join their group, no? Problem avoided.

    Imagine thinking that 12 players is a "big group" for PVP healers who used to be able to heal every ally near them on the battlefield.

    Problem not avoided, when we consider the problem that healers are outraged to be massively nerfed and forced into limited groups.

    But maybe I'm mistaken and those big primetime fights over Chalman, BRK, and Aleswell were actually just a 12 v 12.

    If they typed "I don;t understand" after you explained it multiple times quite clearly, they're just concerned with being able to kill people unable to receive heals from their allies.

    Everyone can receive healing from allies, they just have to join a group.

    Healers can still heal allies, they just have to join a group.

    They made a change and now healing is more balanced is Cyrodiil, sorry you life isn't as easy anymore but joining a group isn't hard.
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