Overwatch did something clever. Play support - skip DD line.

Wolfshead

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Like most games who run support roles Overwatch was suffering from the same problem as ESO.
Too many damage dealers, not enough supports.

So they implemented a system where if you play a support role you are rewarded with a ticket. Your ticket is a one-time consumable you can use to be put infront of the DD line the next time you que as a damage dealer.

It's a reward system - if you help the community by tanking/healing you're rewarded with a near instant que for your next run as damage dealer. Win-Win

They would have to implement measures to make sure a healer got an AOE heal and Tank is slotting a taunt of course - otherwise people would fake role just to farm tickets.

But I like the idea.

Help the community - branch out a little - learn new roles and get rewarded.

Nice Idea but that mean that everyone in this game need to support classes on Char sheet which i know my wife dont have and also in Overwatch anyone can play all class for get go which you cant do in ESO but dont get me wrong i love idea very much.

Other people is that many DPS class have now healing skills that heal other with i have DPS player in dungeon play as tan/heal what ZoS need to i think have reward system in play for tank/healer but also need boost Dragonknight and Templar that was true tank/heal class from start in ESO so it worth play those class again.

validifyedneb18_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

It's not hard to read tooltips. It's not hard to Google something you don't understand.

The issue is sometimes players don't know what they don't understand. The only way yoy would hear about backbar aoe procs or animation cancelling patterns is from an experienced player trying to help. Or by randomly stumbling across help online.

validifyedneb18_ESO

It's not always clear to new players that sets are a must too. Some players from skyrim for example don't understand the importance, while players from other mmos won't necisseraly get how central they are in eso vs other games.

Food buffs are another one, most people don't understand how vital they are compared to other games.

As far slas sets, this also means any leveling character will have dumpster level damage unless they are in leveling gear which - drumroll - only experienced players will have.

zvavi

Raideen wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

idk wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

@idk makes a good point. The main problem is *** dd driving support players to not want to risk getting into a random group.

If you get unlucky as a healer you could be in an hour long BC1 clear. Noone even half decent at the game wants that.

It doesn't help that you are punished for leaving. I get why...but it kills the incentive for good players to want to deal with PUGS.

It is sadly a symptom of a larger issue in eso, the vast majority of players having no clue and/or no want to improve. It's a reality of mmos, but if you look at wow for example the bad players still outperform an eso bad player because of the game design. It also does a better job seperating the geared and ungeared players. Both help in creating a better dungeon queue.

The sad thing is myself and friends have leveled up alt accounts and on alt servers and many of us have shared experiences of being in a random group as a healer when we were about CP 160, the rest of the group CP capped, yet we did over half the damage.

I do realize everyone needs to learn how to play the game and that not all of us are interested in playing it as well as others. However, this is the reason why there are so few tanks and healers that choose to not use the GF. They prefer to play with like-minded players so they form their own group. The same solution helps anyone and everyone get into a group that is what they want.

This issue of poor DPS is a function of the games design though. It's not intuitive at all how a class should be built and in fact many things that should work on paper to a new player do not measure up to a solid DPS. Extracting good performance from a DPS in ESO is literally a bunch of trial and error to new people, nothing is intuitive about gearing a DPS or what abilities to use.

I heal all the time in normals and vets and often I pull 40% of the damage as a healer. On one hand I want scream and yell at the DPS like everyone else, on the other hand I know all to well how hard it is to DPS in this game. I have not lost sight of what it means to be new in ESO. The issue is many 810+CP have.

I call ***. I was deciding my skill usage since low levels, without any external influence, you don't need anyone to teach you to read which skill does how much damage, and see that your aoe damage over time abilities deal more damage over 10 seconds than your spammable in a moment. And it also doesn't take much brain to decide to use 2 aoe dots that are 10 seconds, and refresh them on cooldown. It just takes the will to actually deal damage with your skills.

Read my reply to the post above. This addresses my rebuttal to your post.

I agree that much is not explained (and can still be tested solo btw) but I am very sorry spamming light attacks is a no no. Not refreshing your dots is also a no no. Not wearing sets is a no no. More than that? Sure. Whatever. Don't expect much. But these things? Why not do them? Why go in group content queued as a damage dealer role (on vet) when you didn't even build for damage?

I dont understand your assumptions. I do use sets, in fact I use 5x2 and monster sets. I do throw dots, in fact I do everything you suggested and that is EXACTLY my point that those alone are not enough to push out solid DPS, not the kind of DPS the community expects.

It is 100% enough dps to out damage a tank in 3 support sets. Which is all I expect in a non dlc dungeon. For my tank to not be 30%+ of group damage. For vDLC I would expect more.

mairwen85

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

It's not hard to read tooltips. It's not hard to Google something you don't understand.

The issue is sometimes players don't know what they don't understand. The only way yoy would hear about backbar aoe procs or animation cancelling patterns is from an experienced player trying to help. Or by randomly stumbling across help online.

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

It's not always clear to new players that sets are a must too. Some players from skyrim for example don't understand the importance, while players from other mmos won't necisseraly get how central they are in eso vs other games.

Food buffs are another one, most people don't understand how vital they are compared to other games.

As far slas sets, this also means any leveling character will have dumpster level damage unless they are in leveling gear which - drumroll - only experienced players will have.

People keep talking about new players, but it's not about new players, in fact the new player angle is a complete non sequitur. Like I said, in my time playing I have seen new players become solid players in a matter of weeks, and at the same time 810s who have no idea how to play the game. The difference isn't time played, but willingness to learn stuff. One type of player asks questions, looks things up, reads tooltips and load screen hints and tips, the other doesn't. It's that simple.

Yes, experienced players have knowledge, and many will share it gladly, but there's also a vast expanse of players with equal time spent in game that have none, and - drum roll - that's not the game's fault. It's on the player to "git gud" using whatever resources are at hand, be that the internet, in-game help and descriptions, or other players. The game shouldn't have to hold anyone's hand... could some of the in-game detail and info be better? Sure, but I have this sneaky feeling that those same players would disregard it as much as they do now--because that's not what they choose to do or how they want to play. It has nothing to do with new/old players, but willingness to learn or acknowledge the basics.

At the same time, we also have players who know about stuff, like weaving, but refuse to do it because they don't agree with it, and sets, but because they may be meta (dirty word) don't want to consider them, and players who refuse to look at content creators because they don't agree with that--seriously, blaming the game for player attitudes is just a faulty view. Case in point, anecdotally, I had a conversation in guild chat this morning with another player who was adamant they should be able to mix up stamina and mag skills and go full 3way split with their attributes to dps (actual build was 2h front bar magplar in med gear with no weapon skills and all aoe mag) while fully in the knowledge that it isn't optimal, but because they believe it should be possible, they were doing it, and looking for people to do vet pledges with!

So we have 4 types of player: those with knowledge, those without who want it, those without who don't, and those who rile against it.

validifyedneb18_ESO

I think there is a 4th type though.

Bad new player introduction is what leads to clueless 810s. Players who have no idea how bad they are, because they've never paid much attention and never had a dps meter addon.

Granted in my experience this type of player when you do point it out to them, never suddenly turns into an amazing player, but it can often help slightly.

But no, in general I agree. Having worked as a trail guild trainer, I know for a fact that most players that require training - even those that chose to join a trials guild - either don't actually want to improve or are otherwise incapable of improving. It was the sad reality of running a trials guild, you can only ever find good players, you can't train new players to be good for the most part.

mairwen85

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I think there is a 4th type though.

Yeah added the 4th type.

idk

mairwen85 wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

idk wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

@idk makes a good point. The main problem is *** dd driving support players to not want to risk getting into a random group.

If you get unlucky as a healer you could be in an hour long BC1 clear. Noone even half decent at the game wants that.

It doesn't help that you are punished for leaving. I get why...but it kills the incentive for good players to want to deal with PUGS.

It is sadly a symptom of a larger issue in eso, the vast majority of players having no clue and/or no want to improve. It's a reality of mmos, but if you look at wow for example the bad players still outperform an eso bad player because of the game design. It also does a better job seperating the geared and ungeared players. Both help in creating a better dungeon queue.

The sad thing is myself and friends have leveled up alt accounts and on alt servers and many of us have shared experiences of being in a random group as a healer when we were about CP 160, the rest of the group CP capped, yet we did over half the damage.

I do realize everyone needs to learn how to play the game and that not all of us are interested in playing it as well as others. However, this is the reason why there are so few tanks and healers that choose to not use the GF. They prefer to play with like-minded players so they form their own group. The same solution helps anyone and everyone get into a group that is what they want.

This issue of poor DPS is a function of the games design though. It's not intuitive at all how a class should be built and in fact many things that should work on paper to a new player do not measure up to a solid DPS. Extracting good performance from a DPS in ESO is literally a bunch of trial and error to new people, nothing is intuitive about gearing a DPS or what abilities to use.

I heal all the time in normals and vets and often I pull 40% of the damage as a healer. On one hand I want scream and yell at the DPS like everyone else, on the other hand I know all to well how hard it is to DPS in this game. I have not lost sight of what it means to be new in ESO. The issue is many 810+CP have.

You make a fair point in your last paragraph, only it isn't just new players. I've seen 'new players' evolve into solid players in a matter of weeks, and somehow stumble upon long time players @ 810 who havent a clue. The difference isn't how long they've played, but how much they're willing to actually learn in that time. It's effort vs reward, isn't it?

You are correct. How well a player plays has more to do with interest in learning to play decent than how long they have played the game.

Sinolai

Slotting taunt is different from using taunt.

JinMori

idk wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Like most games who run support roles Overwatch was suffering from the same problem as ESO.
Too many damage dealers, not enough supports.

So they implemented a system where if you play a support role you are rewarded with a ticket. Your ticket is a one-time consumable you can use to be put infront of the DD line the next time you que as a damage dealer.

It's a reward system - if you help the community by tanking/healing you're rewarded with a near instant que for your next run as damage dealer. Win-Win

They would have to implement measures to make sure a healer got an AOE heal and Tank is slotting a taunt of course - otherwise people would fake role just to farm tickets.

But I like the idea.

Help the community - branch out a little - learn new roles and get rewarded.

This is not the issue. As such the solution is not the solution.

ESO has plenty of players that run support roles, and prefer to do so. These players are very good at playing support roles. They stopped using the GF to get into dungeon groups long ago because it was far too often they were put into groups that lacked the skill level to clear the dungeon let along clearing it well.

As such most decent tanks and healers refuse to use the GF and get into pre-made groups via their guilds and enjoy much better and smoother runs.

In reality, what the suggestion would do is promote fake tanking and healing and reward them for queueing as a fake tank and healer.

That is what will really happen. It is easy to suggest Zos would have to implement measures to prevent fake roles from farming tickets but if it was that easy Zos would have implemented measures to prevent fake roles to start with. There is no true workable means to do so.

It basically comes back to dds being the biggest bottleneck in this game.

No matter how good of a support you are, if the dds suck there is not a lot you can do, you could increase their damage by 100% with buffs and all, but 100% of 5k is still a meager 10k, and i doubt even good support players would get to 100% increased damage.

In this game, you either have good dds or you will have a lot of trouble, and honestly, most players in this game i would say are sub par compared to other mmos.

As a result of all of this, and also that i think a lot of people generally prefer to play as dds, you don't see a lot of support/healer or tanks in groups.

LeoRJBrazil

A suggestion to to have a cooldown to change character roles, as 24 or 48 hours.

validifyedneb18_ESO

LeoRJBrazil wrote: »

A suggestion to to have a cooldown to change character roles, as 24 or 48 hours.

That would be a terrible idea. I change my role if I'm playing in trials etc.. To match the role for people to see

Fennwitty

I appreciate the intent to reduce dps role queue times with a two-pronged approach.

It would be incredibly difficult to implement.

Players already slot as healer or tank to get to the front of the queue -- often fake. They'd just keep the bare minimum to pass the gate but still be dps characters in playstyle.

A requirement for a slotted skill is meaningless when the skills can be changed, and asking the server to constantly audit each party member's skills every 10 seconds would be extra load, and potentially counterproductive at times (in Direfrost boss, a taunt isn't necessary because it doesn't do much).

validifyedneb18_ESO

I guess one major difference with overwatch is you select specific characters with specific roles. In eso we have no such thing so you can still fake it just to farm tickets