ZOS, you are killing my guild

ShortTripToHell

Dear reader and maybe ZOS,

2020 is nearly to an end and first I hope everyone is safe.

Secondly I am going to complain so get your popcorn because here it comes. Last year they promised performance upgrades, the year of the improved performance. 2021 they will continue and I hope they will succeed. Now my problem, The game is no longer in BETA!
Now I run a let's call it ball-group pvp style guild in Gray Host PC EU. The people who play there might know me and others might not. Now this year I have had several weeks of testing which btw were hell for my guild. And now I have a restriction with how many ppl I can play. I see guilds dieing in PVP, I see people quiting the game because of this and I see group leaders who btw are great ppl for picking up randoms to play stop.

Yes my guild is really suffering because of what you are doing. "we like the behavor people are showing"? Let me tell you what happens. Me and my guild go attack a keep and the Whole AD alliance comes to 1. have a fight and 2. leech. When I cross the homekeeps by miracle and end up at Ash farm I have to fight 40 blues over a resource! And this the whole night, what behavior is improved? You want to 3 way zerg? I can make a discord for the whole alliance and let's gooooo! Let me tell you, it gets old.

I like reading the forums about how ball groups destroy the game and a lot of things people suggest, the wilder the ideas the harder I laugh so thanks. Let me tell you all for once and for all out of an organised perspective: I WILL find a way to make it work because I have the one thing random groups have not and that is Teamspeak. Coordination is key in fast fights and whoever disagrees and thinks otherwise, try ballgroup style... Think the other way, If I get 20+ ppl on ts with random builds and 12 ppl with the best group builds but no voice. I will win, I bet gold on it.

Anyway back to the reason I want to open this thread. ZOS I don't know what you are doing, but it better stops and you better start reverting some dumb changes that did nothing. You are making people quit the game, you are killing guilds and frankly you are killing my fun. I will be honest as soon as some games release my guild is gone to that other MMO.

Now that's off my chest. Dear reader, thanks for reading. Have some amazing holidays. Let's have more amazing fights in cyro for as long as we can. And see you in the comments or on the battlefield!

Aruu

What

Pattceht

Aruu wrote: »

What

He angry, people kill group, wants fight less people.

LarsS

Zos proved with this change that they dont understand pvp. First they state that the tests dont valid any major changes, then they introduce changes that are major to many players. They dont even care to explain their motifs for the change.

techyeshic

Imagine. A self proclaimed ball group having issues with the group size restrictions.

ShortTripToHell

techyeshic wrote: »

Imagine. A self proclaimed ball group having issues with the group size restrictions.

Not self proclaimed, people say I am. And no I am not happy with the restrictions because of the reasons I mentioned but sure hate me for it.

Araneae6537

I am a bit confused at what change(s) have been so detrimental to your guild. Group size alone? If you had a dedicated group of two dozen players, could you not coordinate two groups in Teamspeak? It wouldn’t be exactly the same as one big group, especially with the asinine group-only-heals, but surely that would effect a coordinated group least of all, no? Not at all meaning to argue, but rather to understand your perspective and get the lay of the land so to speak.

Joy_Division

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I am a bit confused at what change(s) have been so detrimental to your guild. Group size alone? If you had a dedicated group of two dozen players, could you not coordinate two groups in Teamspeak? It wouldn’t be exactly the same as one big group, especially with the asinine group-only-heals, but surely that would effect a coordinated group least of all, no? Not at all meaning to argue, but rather to understand your perspective and get the lay of the land so to speak.

It's possible but a P.I.T.A. because now you've got to make sure two group functions/roles can show up and don't have extra work, spouse aggro, fed up with crap performance, etc. So there's still the same 24 people at the same spot and spamming the same skills, just a ton more aggrevation.

Earthewen

techyeshic wrote: »

Imagine. A self proclaimed ball group having issues with the group size restrictions.

It depends on what a ball group is. I think people have different definitions. I'm curious about the behavior ZOS liked. I still can't get an answer on what it is. If it was less zerging, that has not happened. On the contrary, I rarely see one group of AD or DC out without another one close by. Not sure what is going on with other EP guilds, but it does feel as though ZOS is wanting to destroy the large guilds. Perhaps they think by doing so, fewer people will stay in cyro and "OH LOOK THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED!" If no one is in Cyro, then there will most certainly not be any lag. lol

Many other GMs that I have spoken to are planning on moving to another game in 2021. If the large guilds leave, that would indeed solve the server issues. I'm wondering just how many are planning on abandoning ship.

techyeshic

Earthewen wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Imagine. A self proclaimed ball group having issues with the group size restrictions.

It depends on what a ball group is. I think people have different definitions. I'm curious about the behavior ZOS liked. I still can't get an answer on what it is. If it was less zerging, that has not happened. On the contrary, I rarely see one group of AD or DC out without another one close by. Not sure what is going on with other EP guilds, but it does feel as though ZOS is wanting to destroy the large guilds. Perhaps they think by doing so, fewer people will stay in cyro and "OH LOOK THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED!" If no one is in Cyro, then there will most certainly not be any lag. lol

Many other GMs that I have spoken to are planning on moving to another game in 2021. If the large guilds leave, that would indeed solve the server issues. I'm wondering just how many are planning on abandoning ship.

Yeah. Stacks still show up. The way the map is, you wind up with what seems a max of 3 fights. 2 fronts each side. So then you otherwise only have the option to join the stack, or PvDoor which sometimes draws a decent fight (my favorite thing might be a good defense with the group I am with against another group) but often the fronts are not all active so you get a faction stack response. Always then just swell when the hammer comes out and most things then are focused in 1 spot.

It's a concern I've had for a while. Even if performance was perfect; design of the map, a visionless combat and class identity balance, and a stale map with no known plans to change things up make the game seem troubled.

Greasytengu

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I am a bit confused at what change(s) have been so detrimental to your guild. Group size alone? If you had a dedicated group of two dozen players, could you not coordinate two groups in Teamspeak? It wouldn’t be exactly the same as one big group, especially with the asinine group-only-heals, but surely that would effect a coordinated group least of all, no? Not at all meaning to argue, but rather to understand your perspective and get the lay of the land so to speak.

If their guild ran a 24 man, then theoretically you should be able to just split the group down the middle right?
On paper it works that way , but in reality it is actually much more involved. For starters both groups either need A: a leader, or B: develop some method of keeping both groups together.

If you go with A, then both leaders need to be of a similar skill, and both groups need to have the same group composition otherwise one group will feel like they are being shorted and will possibly lead to in-fighting.

If you go with B, you solve the issue of finding 2 leaders, but you still need both groups at full comp, otherwise you end up with the same problem of perceived (or possibly real) imbalance between groups.

Now lets talk comp, lets say a 24 man prior to the group size reduction was 4-6 healers, 2 support/purge, 1 leader (often times a tank build), and the rest are split between stamina and magicka DPS.

So in theory you could just split it down the middle and add a leader to the second group, 2-3 heals, 1support/purge and 1 leader, right?
Well, the problem is that the incoming damage and debuffs are still the same, but now you have half the healers and purgers to deal with them. A possible solution would be to run both groups at full comp, but there are problems with that. Running both groups at full comp would basically take up 7-9 slots with just support roles alone and would involve some DPS having to change their role to either a healer or support, something they may not be comfortable with.

So do you try to run both groups at half comp, or try to get both up to full comp and completely change some people roles in the process? Both will have your guild hemorrhage players as they either get sick of being rolled by faction stacks, or are unhappy changing from a role they have probably played as for years.

And all this is assuming the group ran at 24 prior to the change, what if a guild traditionally ran at 16 players? Do they run 8 each? Do they run 12 and 4?


These changes have added quite alot of unnecessary friction to organized play and there are other issues with this change that will fracture guilds further. With the new group size, no longer can we bring along the odd newbie or friend of the guild. If we want to chat without interrupting comms we need to use guild chat rather than group leading to suspicion of the odd non-faction players in our guild that we would have never had before.

LarsS

I agree with Greasytengu this change leads to unnecessary complications and as have been pointed out again and again on the forums it hurts many pvp guilds. I fact without improving the lag.

It is however a complication that can be handled without producing any in guild friction. The upside is that zergs are weaker since there is no alliance heal.

idk

Adapt. I am sure OP is in a guild with good leadership. Especially good leadership on the battlefield. Since PvP combat requires constant adapting I expect they will be able to adapt to the changes Zos recently made.

I am not supporting the changes Zos made in any way. It does not make sense that I cannot heal an ally since they are on the same team as I am.

The only PvP I have seen where a player could only heal those they were grouped with was Free-For-All PvP but that is not what we have in ESO.

ShortTripToHell

idk wrote: »

Adapt. I am sure OP is in a guild with good leadership. Especially good leadership on the battlefield. Since PvP combat requires constant adapting I expect they will be able to adapt to the changes Zos recently made.

I am not supporting the changes Zos made in any way. It does not make sense that I cannot heal an ally since they are on the same team as I am.

The only PvP I have seen where a player could only heal those they were grouped with was Free-For-All PvP but that is not what we have in ESO.

I would adapt, every new patch I have adapted the builds, the amount of DD per healer, the amount of purge needed, everything. I even ran with proc sets because they were OP. Not this Crimson werewolf meta ***, I don't wanna have fleas.

My guild has a dedicated 16 players that want to play every single night. Oh but than you can easily do 8 - 8..... NO doesn't work, we tried. Could recruit more players to have 12 - 12. Everyone who leads will agree, it's challeging to run 1 group, running 2 is impossible. The amount of *** I will get for trying to get 2 groups running which are equel in strentgh and comp... Please no.

And to this I refuse to adapt. To this day I tell 4 people you can't play. Now I don't know how other people react to this but I feel bad saying that to a friend. After a long day of work, turning on my pc and getting told yeah you can't play tonight. I would not be happy (Yes I have a solo build, Yes I can run next to the group, Yes I can PVE (Not PVE....), Yes I can do all), and saying that to someone is worse trust me.

And now to my biggest point. I'm not sure if we want to continue much longer. I talked with so many group leaders, guildmasters, members. I made a lot of friends (and a lot of you are on my mute list ) and we have discord to stay in touch. We all agreed that the state is not good and that we will find another MMO to play. I do hope I am wrong and that we may play for a long time in ESO but well... . And let's be honest here however you play, guilds and the friend list make the game great right?

Soul_Demon

idk wrote: »

Adapt. I am sure OP is in a guild with good leadership. Especially good leadership on the battlefield. Since PvP combat requires constant adapting I expect they will be able to adapt to the changes Zos recently made.

I am not supporting the changes Zos made in any way. It does not make sense that I cannot heal an ally since they are on the same team as I am.

The only PvP I have seen where a player could only heal those they were grouped with was Free-For-All PvP but that is not what we have in ESO.

Normally I would agree with you on this about adapting, but in this specific case its the culmination of one full year of 'performance improvements' and the results show the poorest performance the game has ever seen to my knowledge. Mass exodus from PvP and no discernible benefits for the changes ZOS implemented with no new players coming in.

So in this case I have to say the changes to PvP must be fun...its really that simple. If you implement changes to the structure of the game for no performance improvements you must be able to show the players you were able to retain consider it 'more fun' than the previous versions you had...... I don't believe they met that mark on this one....not even close.

HanStolo

EP boreball player complaining he has to fight his allies (DC) to get to the AD fight. Good lord....

ShortTripToHell

HanStolo wrote: »

EP boreball player complaining he has to fight his allies (DC) to get to the AD fight. Good lord....

In Gray Host PC EU there is only few ball-group style groups. I don't know who you are referring to tho.

Aedrion

Ball groups quitting the game?



And the behaviour [snip] targetted was faction stacks being unkillable because each player that zerged along added to its healing which made faction stacks nigh unkillable.

They forgot to tweak skills uses by ballgroups however so now we're stuck with ballgroups being unkillable because faction stacks don't work anymore.

This recent change is only QQ'd about because we were used to the way things were without realising much of that resulted in bad gameplay. 50 players zerging in a keep, spamming AoE heals on eachother (because healing isn't exclusive to 'healers') is not good design.

Also if anything is making people leave Cyro, it's the performance.

[edited for bashing]

ShortTripToHell

Aedrion wrote: »

Ball groups quitting the game?

And the behaviour [snip] targetted was faction stacks being unkillable because each player that zerged along added to its healing which made faction stacks nigh unkillable.

They forgot to tweak skills uses by ballgroups however so now we're stuck with ballgroups being unkillable because faction stacks don't work anymore.

This recent change is only QQ'd about because we were used to the way things were without realising much of that resulted in bad gameplay. 50 players zerging in a keep, spamming AoE heals on eachother (because healing isn't exclusive to 'healers') is not good design.

Also if anything is making people leave Cyro, it's the performance.

As far as I hear around many guilds are quiting pvp. In AD side PC EU Gray Host I think there are like 3? remaining? I'm interested by this. What campaign are you guys running? And how many guilds are in your alliance? ( Ball, pug, with zone, whatever) And no I am not counting PVE guilds that come and claim a keep . Myself I have seen a big bleeding out of guilds.

I still believe having voice communication is the biggest advantage for a group. But I see the rest of your points. I do agree performance is the thing that kills most of the fun.

Thraben

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

As far as I hear around many guilds are quiting pvp. In AD side PC EU Gray Host I think there are like 3? remaining?.

Ravenwatch EU has the greatest concentration of guild groups of the last 4 years. So they did not leave, they have just switched to NoCP.

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

My guild has a dedicated 16 players that want to play every single night. Oh but than you can easily do 8 - 8..... NO doesn't work, we tried. Could recruit more players to have 12 - 12. Everyone who leads will agree, it's challeging to run 1 group, running 2 is impossible. The amount of *** I will get for trying to get 2 groups running which are equel in strentgh and comp... Please no.

Of course it does work. An optimized 6-8 man group can do anything in PvP (well, maybe except farming with the scroll for a longer period), including fighting or at least harassing stronger and larger PvP groups. You won't be able to fight for longer periods that way, but you don't need to, as you can call for reinforcements. You gain massive tactical advantages this way both against faction stacks and stronger 12-people guild groups. That's not even a new idea, real life militaries have been working like that for more than 200 years (with the introduction of the Corps system in Napoleonic Armies).

All you have to do is to train secondary raid leaders and make sure all your 6-8men groups can support each other WHEN NEEDED (normally they would be fighting their own fights on different fronts until you call them together). I suggest that the most experienced raid leader should personally command the group with the weakest players and give the players who can basically win without any leadership to the raid leaders-in-training.

Joy_Division

Thraben wrote: »

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

As far as I hear around many guilds are quiting pvp. In AD side PC EU Gray Host I think there are like 3? remaining?.

Ravenwatch EU has the greatest concentration of guild groups of the last 4 years. So they did not leave, they have just switched to NoCP.

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

My guild has a dedicated 16 players that want to play every single night. Oh but than you can easily do 8 - 8..... NO doesn't work, we tried. Could recruit more players to have 12 - 12. Everyone who leads will agree, it's challeging to run 1 group, running 2 is impossible. The amount of *** I will get for trying to get 2 groups running which are equel in strentgh and comp... Please no.

Of course it does work. An optimized 6-8 man group can do anything in PvP (well, maybe except farming with the scroll for a longer period), including fighting or at least harassing stronger and larger PvP groups. You won't be able to fight for longer periods that way, but you don't need to, as you can call for reinforcements. You gain massive tactical advantages this way both against faction stacks and stronger 12-people guild groups. That's not even a new idea, real life militaries have been working like that for more than 200 years (with the introduction of the Corps system in Napoleonic Armies).

All you have to do is to train secondary raid leaders and make sure all your 6-8men groups can support each other WHEN NEEDED (normally they would be fighting their own fights on different fronts until you call them together). I suggest that the most experienced raid leader should personally command the group with the weakest players and give the players who can basically win without any leadership to the raid leaders-in-training.

Oh, is that all? Train leads, ensure that multiple specs that are needed in now multiple raids when the purge sorc already has their arm twisted, all for game whose PvP is so non-existent the devs cant even be bothered to acknowledged a synergy bug that lets everyone spam gravity crush.

You may be hardcore to dedicate such time and patience that has zero reciprocation from ZOS, but for many of us, it's a big fat F-that. I'll go watch netflix, read a book, or play another game.

Thraben

Joy_Division wrote: »

You may be hardcore to dedicate such time and patience that has zero reciprocation from ZOS, but for many of us, it's a big fat F-that. I'll go watch netflix, read a book, or play another game.

You are right,

a) MagSorcs might be a bit overworked this way, and
b) a lot of patience is required.

To b) I remember when we started doing this 2 years ago, there was a lot of anger in the Voice Chat group when one group failed to fight with or even find the other one. It gets better.

to a) The time of the Purge Bot is over. It was a misunderstanding in the first place to force Sorcs to do nothing but purging and CC, but in such a small group, responsibility must be shared. The Curse-Eater set helps.


As a side note, I would suggest that the raid leader him-or herself takes over a lot of support roles him-or herself, so that the other group mates can play as they want. That includes: Wall of Frost, Hots, Purge, Rapid, and Borrowed time. Classes that can do this are: MagWarden, MagBlade, MagSorc, StamWarden. Combine it with a rule: "Everyone equips a group healing skill", and you have something to work with even without optimized builds.

Agalloch

We need our Cyrodiil back!

This :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfeMROJhXSY

Agalloch

Cyrodiil was massive and the performance was fine even with hundreds of players on the same screen!

Now ZOS butchered Cyrodiil ..no more large groups no more FACTION support ...Cyro is like a huge battleground righ now with poor performance.

ZOS must hire a dedicated person to PVP in ESO like Brian Wheeler was.



English is not my native language.

techyeshic

Agalloch wrote: »

We need our Cyrodiil back!

This :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfeMROJhXSY

Is it just me or does the game just look better back then. Little more dimensional

BisDasBlutGefriert

Agalloch wrote: »

We need our Cyrodiil back!

This :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfeMROJhXSY

I'm about 98% pve player, but still, I can't imagine a scenario like that ^^^ with all of those player battling it out, and only being able to heal your group.....ouch

Actually, I'm curious; does anyone have a more recent video of taking a keep? I'd love to see the differences between then and now. Thanks!

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

techyeshic wrote: »

Agalloch wrote: »

We need our Cyrodiil back!

This :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfeMROJhXSY

Is it just me or does the game just look better back then. Little more dimensional

its probs because you could have your settings higher and actually play vs now having to lower settings to have any sort of performative experience.

But also I think animations were generally nicer back then - especially things like DK wings, Impulse etc, actually looked really nice.

techyeshic

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Agalloch wrote: »

We need our Cyrodiil back!

This :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfeMROJhXSY

Is it just me or does the game just look better back then. Little more dimensional

its probs because you could have your settings higher and actually play vs now having to lower settings to have any sort of performative experience.

But also I think animations were generally nicer back then - especially things like DK wings, Impulse etc, actually looked really nice.

They're slower and more deliberate looking. Everything is slower there it seems. I'm not sure if it's us speeding up over the years or their few attempts they did to try to gave the animations match what really is happening.

Makes me start to wonder if all the speed we have now hasn't contributed.

Joy_Division

Agalloch wrote: »

We need our Cyrodiil back!

This :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfeMROJhXSY

At 6:00 I really wanted to bomb the back flag