Why are there so many werewolves?

Ryuvain

ccfeeling wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

They need to make the wolf heal scale off of max stamina and weapon damage. This will help get rid of the troll wolves and reward quick reactive gameplay.

It's dosesn't matter if WW healing scales stam + WD , WW actually it's a good theory crafter with super natural power .
i.e. Draugr Hulk , New Moon , Malacath's Band of Brutality , 1 pc flex

Build in extra resistance , medium tanky with super raw damage , it might has some problem if 1V4 plus when you run medium armor , but you can kill player real fast , you know it for sure .

I believe there are more creative builds than I think , WW still rule BG , IC , small scale PVP with your suggestion .

Once again , WW need a 5 mins hard reset timer , they are too OP .

If werewolf gets a hard limit on it then it's going to need passives or skills outside of form. You can always be a vampire but you can't always be a werewolf? Makes no sense.

ccfeeling

WW is the only ultimate transformation lasts 24 hours if you meet the conditions .

You wanna compare WW and Vampire this patch seriously ?

Ryuvain

ccfeeling wrote: »

WW is the only ultimate transformation lasts 24 hours if you meet the conditions .

You wanna compare WW and Vampire this patch seriously ?

Because it's supposed to? It's a werewolf, not a vampire. No passives outside of form but you want a limit on it, when technically werewolves are supposed to be infinite even without the timer players have now.

Werewolves aren't even a different or new breed like player vamps but they can't stay in form even now.

angelofdeath333

Ryuvain wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

They need to make the wolf heal scale off of max stamina and weapon damage. This will help get rid of the troll wolves and reward quick reactive gameplay.

It's dosesn't matter if WW healing scales stam + WD , WW actually it's a good theory crafter with super natural power .
i.e. Draugr Hulk , New Moon , Malacath's Band of Brutality , 1 pc flex

Build in extra resistance , medium tanky with super raw damage , it might has some problem if 1V4 plus when you run medium armor , but you can kill player real fast , you know it for sure .

I believe there are more creative builds than I think , WW still rule BG , IC , small scale PVP with your suggestion .

Once again , WW need a 5 mins hard reset timer , they are too OP .

If werewolf gets a hard limit on it then it's going to need passives or skills outside of form. You can always be a vampire but you can't always be a werewolf? Makes no sense.

You get 15% stamina recovery just by slotting it on your bar

Ryuvain

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

They need to make the wolf heal scale off of max stamina and weapon damage. This will help get rid of the troll wolves and reward quick reactive gameplay.

It's dosesn't matter if WW healing scales stam + WD , WW actually it's a good theory crafter with super natural power .
i.e. Draugr Hulk , New Moon , Malacath's Band of Brutality , 1 pc flex

Build in extra resistance , medium tanky with super raw damage , it might has some problem if 1V4 plus when you run medium armor , but you can kill player real fast , you know it for sure .

I believe there are more creative builds than I think , WW still rule BG , IC , small scale PVP with your suggestion .

Once again , WW need a 5 mins hard reset timer , they are too OP .

If werewolf gets a hard limit on it then it's going to need passives or skills outside of form. You can always be a vampire but you can't always be a werewolf? Makes no sense.

You get 15% stamina recovery just by slotting it on your bar

That's still a slot I couldve used a different ultimate in. Besides 15% really isnt worth the slot alone, I'd rather use onslaught.

angelofdeath333

[

Ryuvain wrote: »

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

They need to make the wolf heal scale off of max stamina and weapon damage. This will help get rid of the troll wolves and reward quick reactive gameplay.

It's dosesn't matter if WW healing scales stam + WD , WW actually it's a good theory crafter with super natural power .
i.e. Draugr Hulk , New Moon , Malacath's Band of Brutality , 1 pc flex

Build in extra resistance , medium tanky with super raw damage , it might has some problem if 1V4 plus when you run medium armor , but you can kill player real fast , you know it for sure .

I believe there are more creative builds than I think , WW still rule BG , IC , small scale PVP with your suggestion .

Once again , WW need a 5 mins hard reset timer , they are too OP .

If werewolf gets a hard limit on it then it's going to need passives or skills outside of form. You can always be a vampire but you can't always be a werewolf? Makes no sense.

You get 15% stamina recovery just by slotting it on your bar

That's still a slot I couldve used a different ultimate in. Besides 15% really isnt worth the slot alone, I'd rather use onslaught.

So you really use an offensive ult on both bars tho? You can backbar ww and use an offensive ult on your FB, thats what i do and the extra rec is really helpfull.

Chrlynsch

ccfeeling wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

They need to make the wolf heal scale off of max stamina and weapon damage. This will help get rid of the troll wolves and reward quick reactive gameplay.

It's dosesn't matter if WW healing scales stam + WD , WW actually it's a good theory crafter with super natural power .
i.e. Draugr Hulk , New Moon , Malacath's Band of Brutality , 1 pc flex

Build in extra resistance , medium tanky with super raw damage , it might has some problem if 1V4 plus when you run medium armor , but you can kill player real fast , you know it for sure .

I believe there are more creative builds than I think , WW still rule BG , IC , small scale PVP with your suggestion .

Once again , WW need a 5 mins hard reset timer , they are too OP .

If the werewolf heal scaled off of Stam and Weapon damage, then we werewolf wouldn't have a reason to stack obserd levels of health nearly all the posts you see on the forums about werewolf is about their 40k+ health. If werewolf stacked health, and proc sets their heal would be close to worthless.

A werewolf running the sets you suggested have a large heal but wouldn't have the means to sustain their healing, remember their heal costs nearly 6k magicka to use. They would be a glass cannon due to their poor heal sustainability. And would fold to sustained damage.

Ryuvain

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

[

Ryuvain wrote: »

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

They need to make the wolf heal scale off of max stamina and weapon damage. This will help get rid of the troll wolves and reward quick reactive gameplay.

It's dosesn't matter if WW healing scales stam + WD , WW actually it's a good theory crafter with super natural power .
i.e. Draugr Hulk , New Moon , Malacath's Band of Brutality , 1 pc flex

Build in extra resistance , medium tanky with super raw damage , it might has some problem if 1V4 plus when you run medium armor , but you can kill player real fast , you know it for sure .

I believe there are more creative builds than I think , WW still rule BG , IC , small scale PVP with your suggestion .

Once again , WW need a 5 mins hard reset timer , they are too OP .

If werewolf gets a hard limit on it then it's going to need passives or skills outside of form. You can always be a vampire but you can't always be a werewolf? Makes no sense.

You get 15% stamina recovery just by slotting it on your bar

That's still a slot I couldve used a different ultimate in. Besides 15% really isnt worth the slot alone, I'd rather use onslaught.

So you really use an offensive ult on both bars tho? You can backbar ww and use an offensive ult on your FB, thats what i do and the extra rec is really helpfull.

I choose to use a defensive/utility ult on backbar, something like either healing or cc. Thats all different playstyles and opinions tho.

Tommy_The_Gun

Chrlynsch wrote: »

If the werewolf heal scaled off of Stam and Weapon damage, then we werewolf wouldn't have a reason to stack obserd levels of health nearly all the posts you see on the forums about werewolf is about their 40k+ health. If werewolf stacked health, and proc sets their heal would be close to worthless.

Tbh. it is not only WW issue. A lot of builds today are basically builds that focus on stacking as much heath as possible and as much resistance as possible.

Why ?

Because they get dmg from proc sets that scale with nothing. It is a fixed value. All other stuff in ESO scales with something. DMG dealing proc sets ? Do not. It is an "anomaly".

Previously, those sets were balanced by having additional proc % chance (usually low). So they were unreliable. Not many ppl used them. But since ZOS removed % proc chance and simplified the proc condition (as a part of server calculation stress optimization), even though they nerfed dmg those porc sets do - those all of the sudden became reliable with 90%+ uptime. Also, nowadays we have brutality ring...

That is what happened.

Also, lets ask ourself a question: Was health-scaling healing a problem in the past ? Personally I don't think so. In fact I remember ppl saying and praising ZOS for making some healing abilities to scale with health. I mean, think about it. In order to have decent heal, you have to sacrifice some offensive stats and place them into health, right ? So your dmg output goes down. On WW, in addition to that, you have to have some kind of magicka sustain, or at least some pool of magicka to cast those 2 - 3 heals on a stamina build - hybridizing your build even further, and reducing dmg output.

I think that the solution would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat (stamina or magicka). That would pretty much solve all the "tanky" builds (not only WWs) problem and reduce their amount substantially. Because the problem is not just tanky builds. It is tanky builds with decent dmg. If a tank sacrifices everything to have high resistance and a lot of health - I dont see a problem with that. Even if you will have a health-scaling healing ability you will have no dmg output on a build like this. But not with proc sets, that provide "free" dmg that scales with nothing.

Remember, ideal balanced scenario is when there is no clear winner. So you can have an ultra tanky build vs ultra squishy burst dps build. No clear winner means that DPS can not go through tank's defences reliably, and at the same time tank can not kill squishy dps because of low dmg output.

TLDR:

Making WW heal into stamina ability, would not solve the problem imho. In fact I think it would cause all kind of other problems. It is easy to have 30K+ health, especially in CP PvP, even with medium armour. So what you will get is people would run more stam recovery and further more - they would be able to almost spam heals on a WW as they would not need any magicka sustain. On top of that, they would have more dmg.
I simply think that this would only solve part of the problem (and most likely create new ones), but other health-stacking builds would still be there, unchanged, still running 2 -3 dmg proc sets.

Better way imho would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, leave health-scaling healing as it is, and maybe make brutality ring to not proc other proc sets.

Chrlynsch

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

If the werewolf heal scaled off of Stam and Weapon damage, then we werewolf wouldn't have a reason to stack obserd levels of health nearly all the posts you see on the forums about werewolf is about their 40k+ health. If werewolf stacked health, and proc sets their heal would be close to worthless.

Tbh. it is not only WW issue. A lot of builds today are basically builds that focus on stacking as much heath as possible and as much resistance as possible.

Why ?

Because they get dmg from proc sets that scale with nothing. It is a fixed value. All other stuff in ESO scales with something. DMG dealing proc sets ? Do not. It is an "anomaly".

Previously, those sets were balanced by having additional proc % chance (usually low). So they were unreliable. Not many ppl used them. But since ZOS removed % proc chance and simplified the proc condition (as a part of server calculation stress optimization), even though they nerfed dmg those porc sets do - those all of the sudden became reliable with 90%+ uptime. Also, nowadays we have brutality ring...

That is what happened.

Also, lets ask ourself a question: Was health-scaling healing a problem in the past ? Personally I don't think so. In fact I remember ppl saying and praising ZOS for making some healing abilities to scale with health. I mean, think about it. In order to have decent heal, you have to sacrifice some offensive stats and place them into health, right ? So your dmg output goes down. On WW, in addition to that, you have to have some kind of magicka sustain, or at least some pool of magicka to cast those 2 - 3 heals on a stamina build - hybridizing your build even further, and reducing dmg output.

I think that the solution would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat (stamina or magicka). That would pretty much solve all the "tanky" builds (not only WWs) problem and reduce their amount substantially. Because the problem is not just tanky builds. It is tanky builds with decent dmg. If a tank sacrifices everything to have high resistance and a lot of health - I dont see a problem with that. Even if you will have a health-scaling healing ability you will have no dmg output on a build like this. But not with proc sets, that provide "free" dmg that scales with nothing.

Remember, ideal balanced scenario is when there is no clear winner. So you can have an ultra tanky build vs ultra squishy burst dps build. No clear winner means that DPS can not go through tank's defences reliably, and at the same time tank can not kill squishy dps because of low dmg output.

TLDR:

Making WW heal into stamina ability, would not solve the problem imho. In fact I think it would cause all kind of other problems. It is easy to have 30K+ health, especially in CP PvP, even with medium armour. So what you will get is people would run more stam recovery and further more - they would be able to almost spam heals on a WW as they would not need any magicka sustain. On top of that, they would have more dmg.
I simply think that this would only solve part of the problem (and most likely create new ones), but other health-stacking builds would still be there, unchanged, still running 2 -3 dmg proc sets.

Better way imho would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, leave health-scaling healing as it is, and maybe make brutality ring to not proc other proc sets.

I didn't say make it a stamina ability just make it scale off of stamina and weapon damage.

Proc sets are their own balancing act.

angelofdeath333

Ryuvain wrote: »

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

[

Ryuvain wrote: »

angelofdeath333 wrote: »

Ryuvain wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

They need to make the wolf heal scale off of max stamina and weapon damage. This will help get rid of the troll wolves and reward quick reactive gameplay.

It's dosesn't matter if WW healing scales stam + WD , WW actually it's a good theory crafter with super natural power .
i.e. Draugr Hulk , New Moon , Malacath's Band of Brutality , 1 pc flex

Build in extra resistance , medium tanky with super raw damage , it might has some problem if 1V4 plus when you run medium armor , but you can kill player real fast , you know it for sure .

I believe there are more creative builds than I think , WW still rule BG , IC , small scale PVP with your suggestion .

Once again , WW need a 5 mins hard reset timer , they are too OP .

If werewolf gets a hard limit on it then it's going to need passives or skills outside of form. You can always be a vampire but you can't always be a werewolf? Makes no sense.

You get 15% stamina recovery just by slotting it on your bar

That's still a slot I couldve used a different ultimate in. Besides 15% really isnt worth the slot alone, I'd rather use onslaught.

So you really use an offensive ult on both bars tho? You can backbar ww and use an offensive ult on your FB, thats what i do and the extra rec is really helpfull.

I choose to use a defensive/utility ult on backbar, something like either healing or cc. Thats all different playstyles and opinions tho.

It all comes down preference. But 15% extra recovery on a build with already high recovery is not bad at all, so its not useless when in human form. Thats what i was trying to point out

Tommy_The_Gun

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

If the werewolf heal scaled off of Stam and Weapon damage, then we werewolf wouldn't have a reason to stack obserd levels of health nearly all the posts you see on the forums about werewolf is about their 40k+ health. If werewolf stacked health, and proc sets their heal would be close to worthless.

Tbh. it is not only WW issue. A lot of builds today are basically builds that focus on stacking as much heath as possible and as much resistance as possible.

Why ?

Because they get dmg from proc sets that scale with nothing. It is a fixed value. All other stuff in ESO scales with something. DMG dealing proc sets ? Do not. It is an "anomaly".

Previously, those sets were balanced by having additional proc % chance (usually low). So they were unreliable. Not many ppl used them. But since ZOS removed % proc chance and simplified the proc condition (as a part of server calculation stress optimization), even though they nerfed dmg those porc sets do - those all of the sudden became reliable with 90%+ uptime. Also, nowadays we have brutality ring...

That is what happened.

Also, lets ask ourself a question: Was health-scaling healing a problem in the past ? Personally I don't think so. In fact I remember ppl saying and praising ZOS for making some healing abilities to scale with health. I mean, think about it. In order to have decent heal, you have to sacrifice some offensive stats and place them into health, right ? So your dmg output goes down. On WW, in addition to that, you have to have some kind of magicka sustain, or at least some pool of magicka to cast those 2 - 3 heals on a stamina build - hybridizing your build even further, and reducing dmg output.

I think that the solution would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat (stamina or magicka). That would pretty much solve all the "tanky" builds (not only WWs) problem and reduce their amount substantially. Because the problem is not just tanky builds. It is tanky builds with decent dmg. If a tank sacrifices everything to have high resistance and a lot of health - I dont see a problem with that. Even if you will have a health-scaling healing ability you will have no dmg output on a build like this. But not with proc sets, that provide "free" dmg that scales with nothing.

Remember, ideal balanced scenario is when there is no clear winner. So you can have an ultra tanky build vs ultra squishy burst dps build. No clear winner means that DPS can not go through tank's defences reliably, and at the same time tank can not kill squishy dps because of low dmg output.

TLDR:

Making WW heal into stamina ability, would not solve the problem imho. In fact I think it would cause all kind of other problems. It is easy to have 30K+ health, especially in CP PvP, even with medium armour. So what you will get is people would run more stam recovery and further more - they would be able to almost spam heals on a WW as they would not need any magicka sustain. On top of that, they would have more dmg.
I simply think that this would only solve part of the problem (and most likely create new ones), but other health-stacking builds would still be there, unchanged, still running 2 -3 dmg proc sets.

Better way imho would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, leave health-scaling healing as it is, and maybe make brutality ring to not proc other proc sets.

I didn't say make it a stamina ability just make it scale off of stamina and weapon damage.

Proc sets are their own balancing act.

Ok, I understand now. It would still cost magicka, but would scale with max stam / weapon dmg. Hmm... idk about that...

I mean I just assumed that since it will scale with stam / weapon dmg, it would cost stamina too. I don't know if we have some ability like this in ESO at all (cost one offensive resource, but scale with other). I mean, ZOS loves their standards. Health scaling abilities for example take crit rate from highest offensive stat, and those can cost either magicka or stamina.

But, lets assume ZOS will do one exception and allow to have one ability that cost magicka and scales with stamina:

Ok, it may work, I mean there will be less benefit from stacking a lot of health, but I am pretty sure that you will get same (if not stronger) healing on a WW if it would scale with stamina / weapon dmg instead of health, even on a 30 - 35K health build.

I have something around 15K Vigor tooltip (30K stamina, 2K weapon dmg, your average typical stamina build). On a 25K health build, I have also similar tooltip on Hircine's Fortitude - around 15K.
^ Granted, one is HOT and the other is burst heal, but it is probably the closest single target stamina heal you can get to compare.

Now, WW skills are more expensive, but also stronger, (by around 25% I think). So you will get basically 25% stronger burst Vigor that cost magicka. Also it will be buffed further by WW passives (30% more stamina, 18% weapon boost). So, you will probably end up with at least 15K burst heal (at lowest) on more or less 30K+ health build. I am not expert, but with stat-buffing sets instead of proc sets, it may lead to a paradox like having 25+ healing on a 20K health build lol....

Anyway, I think that overall, it is a "solution" but it is only a "partial" solution to a problem. And that problem is not even health-scaling heal, it is the fact that you can run dmg dealing proc sets on a 40+ health build and still dish-out decent dmg. Making heal to scale with stam will of course reduce the healing by a lot on such build - but it will still be decent.

I still think that better way would be to make proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, as imho proc sets that scale with nothing are the reason why people allocate almost everything into health, as there is less benefit in placing them in mag or stam and become "squishier" vs having almost same dmg on top of having 40+ health.

Chrlynsch

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

If the werewolf heal scaled off of Stam and Weapon damage, then we werewolf wouldn't have a reason to stack obserd levels of health nearly all the posts you see on the forums about werewolf is about their 40k+ health. If werewolf stacked health, and proc sets their heal would be close to worthless.

Tbh. it is not only WW issue. A lot of builds today are basically builds that focus on stacking as much heath as possible and as much resistance as possible.

Why ?

Because they get dmg from proc sets that scale with nothing. It is a fixed value. All other stuff in ESO scales with something. DMG dealing proc sets ? Do not. It is an "anomaly".

Previously, those sets were balanced by having additional proc % chance (usually low). So they were unreliable. Not many ppl used them. But since ZOS removed % proc chance and simplified the proc condition (as a part of server calculation stress optimization), even though they nerfed dmg those porc sets do - those all of the sudden became reliable with 90%+ uptime. Also, nowadays we have brutality ring...

That is what happened.

Also, lets ask ourself a question: Was health-scaling healing a problem in the past ? Personally I don't think so. In fact I remember ppl saying and praising ZOS for making some healing abilities to scale with health. I mean, think about it. In order to have decent heal, you have to sacrifice some offensive stats and place them into health, right ? So your dmg output goes down. On WW, in addition to that, you have to have some kind of magicka sustain, or at least some pool of magicka to cast those 2 - 3 heals on a stamina build - hybridizing your build even further, and reducing dmg output.

I think that the solution would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat (stamina or magicka). That would pretty much solve all the "tanky" builds (not only WWs) problem and reduce their amount substantially. Because the problem is not just tanky builds. It is tanky builds with decent dmg. If a tank sacrifices everything to have high resistance and a lot of health - I dont see a problem with that. Even if you will have a health-scaling healing ability you will have no dmg output on a build like this. But not with proc sets, that provide "free" dmg that scales with nothing.

Remember, ideal balanced scenario is when there is no clear winner. So you can have an ultra tanky build vs ultra squishy burst dps build. No clear winner means that DPS can not go through tank's defences reliably, and at the same time tank can not kill squishy dps because of low dmg output.

TLDR:

Making WW heal into stamina ability, would not solve the problem imho. In fact I think it would cause all kind of other problems. It is easy to have 30K+ health, especially in CP PvP, even with medium armour. So what you will get is people would run more stam recovery and further more - they would be able to almost spam heals on a WW as they would not need any magicka sustain. On top of that, they would have more dmg.
I simply think that this would only solve part of the problem (and most likely create new ones), but other health-stacking builds would still be there, unchanged, still running 2 -3 dmg proc sets.

Better way imho would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, leave health-scaling healing as it is, and maybe make brutality ring to not proc other proc sets.

I didn't say make it a stamina ability just make it scale off of stamina and weapon damage.

Proc sets are their own balancing act.

Ok, I understand now. It would still cost magicka, but would scale with max stam / weapon dmg. Hmm... idk about that...

I mean I just assumed that since it will scale with stam / weapon dmg, it would cost stamina too. I don't know if we have some ability like this in ESO at all (cost one offensive resource, but scale with other). I mean, ZOS loves their standards. Health scaling abilities for example take crit rate from highest offensive stat, and those can cost either magicka or stamina.

But, lets assume ZOS will do one exception and allow to have one ability that cost magicka and scales with stamina:

Ok, it may work, I mean there will be less benefit from stacking a lot of health, but I am pretty sure that you will get same (if not stronger) healing on a WW if it would scale with stamina / weapon dmg instead of health, even on a 30 - 35K health build.

I have something around 15K Vigor tooltip (30K stamina, 2K weapon dmg, your average typical stamina build). On a 25K health build, I have also similar tooltip on Hircine's Fortitude - around 15K.
^ Granted, one is HOT and the other is burst heal, but it is probably the closest single target stamina heal you can get to compare.

Now, WW skills are more expensive, but also stronger, (by around 25% I think). So you will get basically 25% stronger burst Vigor that cost magicka. Also it will be buffed further by WW passives (30% more stamina, 18% weapon boost). So, you will probably end up with at least 15K burst heal (at lowest) on more or less 30K+ health build. I am not expert, but with stat-buffing sets instead of proc sets, it may lead to a paradox like having 25+ healing on a 20K health build lol....

Anyway, I think that overall, it is a "solution" but it is only a "partial" solution to a problem. And that problem is not even health-scaling heal, it is the fact that you can run dmg dealing proc sets on a 40+ health build and still dish-out decent dmg. Making heal to scale with stam will of course reduce the healing by a lot on such build - but it will still be decent.

I still think that better way would be to make proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, as imho proc sets that scale with nothing are the reason why people allocate almost everything into health, as there is less benefit in placing them in mag or stam and become "squishier" vs having almost same dmg on top of having 40+ health.

DK's Cauterize, Templar's ritual, and Necromancer's coil all heal off of the user's highest offensive stat, so having hircine's heal work the same way really wouldn't be odd at all.

Do whatever you want to proc sets, nerf um, make um scale off of offensive stats, those are all discussions for a different day, werewolf should never be tweeked because of over performing sets. Overperforming sets should be tweeked because they are Overperforming.

Ryuvain

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

If the werewolf heal scaled off of Stam and Weapon damage, then we werewolf wouldn't have a reason to stack obserd levels of health nearly all the posts you see on the forums about werewolf is about their 40k+ health. If werewolf stacked health, and proc sets their heal would be close to worthless.

Tbh. it is not only WW issue. A lot of builds today are basically builds that focus on stacking as much heath as possible and as much resistance as possible.

Why ?

Because they get dmg from proc sets that scale with nothing. It is a fixed value. All other stuff in ESO scales with something. DMG dealing proc sets ? Do not. It is an "anomaly".

Previously, those sets were balanced by having additional proc % chance (usually low). So they were unreliable. Not many ppl used them. But since ZOS removed % proc chance and simplified the proc condition (as a part of server calculation stress optimization), even though they nerfed dmg those porc sets do - those all of the sudden became reliable with 90%+ uptime. Also, nowadays we have brutality ring...

That is what happened.

Also, lets ask ourself a question: Was health-scaling healing a problem in the past ? Personally I don't think so. In fact I remember ppl saying and praising ZOS for making some healing abilities to scale with health. I mean, think about it. In order to have decent heal, you have to sacrifice some offensive stats and place them into health, right ? So your dmg output goes down. On WW, in addition to that, you have to have some kind of magicka sustain, or at least some pool of magicka to cast those 2 - 3 heals on a stamina build - hybridizing your build even further, and reducing dmg output.

I think that the solution would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat (stamina or magicka). That would pretty much solve all the "tanky" builds (not only WWs) problem and reduce their amount substantially. Because the problem is not just tanky builds. It is tanky builds with decent dmg. If a tank sacrifices everything to have high resistance and a lot of health - I dont see a problem with that. Even if you will have a health-scaling healing ability you will have no dmg output on a build like this. But not with proc sets, that provide "free" dmg that scales with nothing.

Remember, ideal balanced scenario is when there is no clear winner. So you can have an ultra tanky build vs ultra squishy burst dps build. No clear winner means that DPS can not go through tank's defences reliably, and at the same time tank can not kill squishy dps because of low dmg output.

TLDR:

Making WW heal into stamina ability, would not solve the problem imho. In fact I think it would cause all kind of other problems. It is easy to have 30K+ health, especially in CP PvP, even with medium armour. So what you will get is people would run more stam recovery and further more - they would be able to almost spam heals on a WW as they would not need any magicka sustain. On top of that, they would have more dmg.
I simply think that this would only solve part of the problem (and most likely create new ones), but other health-stacking builds would still be there, unchanged, still running 2 -3 dmg proc sets.

Better way imho would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, leave health-scaling healing as it is, and maybe make brutality ring to not proc other proc sets.

I didn't say make it a stamina ability just make it scale off of stamina and weapon damage.

Proc sets are their own balancing act.

Ok, I understand now. It would still cost magicka, but would scale with max stam / weapon dmg. Hmm... idk about that...

I mean I just assumed that since it will scale with stam / weapon dmg, it would cost stamina too. I don't know if we have some ability like this in ESO at all (cost one offensive resource, but scale with other). I mean, ZOS loves their standards. Health scaling abilities for example take crit rate from highest offensive stat, and those can cost either magicka or stamina.

But, lets assume ZOS will do one exception and allow to have one ability that cost magicka and scales with stamina:

Ok, it may work, I mean there will be less benefit from stacking a lot of health, but I am pretty sure that you will get same (if not stronger) healing on a WW if it would scale with stamina / weapon dmg instead of health, even on a 30 - 35K health build.

I have something around 15K Vigor tooltip (30K stamina, 2K weapon dmg, your average typical stamina build). On a 25K health build, I have also similar tooltip on Hircine's Fortitude - around 15K.
^ Granted, one is HOT and the other is burst heal, but it is probably the closest single target stamina heal you can get to compare.

Now, WW skills are more expensive, but also stronger, (by around 25% I think). So you will get basically 25% stronger burst Vigor that cost magicka. Also it will be buffed further by WW passives (30% more stamina, 18% weapon boost). So, you will probably end up with at least 15K burst heal (at lowest) on more or less 30K+ health build. I am not expert, but with stat-buffing sets instead of proc sets, it may lead to a paradox like having 25+ healing on a 20K health build lol....

Anyway, I think that overall, it is a "solution" but it is only a "partial" solution to a problem. And that problem is not even health-scaling heal, it is the fact that you can run dmg dealing proc sets on a 40+ health build and still dish-out decent dmg. Making heal to scale with stam will of course reduce the healing by a lot on such build - but it will still be decent.

I still think that better way would be to make proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, as imho proc sets that scale with nothing are the reason why people allocate almost everything into health, as there is less benefit in placing them in mag or stam and become "squishier" vs having almost same dmg on top of having 40+ health.

DK's Cauterize, Templar's ritual, and Necromancer's coil all heal off of the user's highest offensive stat, so having hircine's heal work the same way really wouldn't be odd at all.

Do whatever you want to proc sets, nerf um, make um scale off of offensive stats, those are all discussions for a different day, werewolf should never be tweeked because of over performing sets. Overperforming sets should be tweeked because they are Overperforming.

Cough Malacath cough.

Chrlynsch

Ryuvain wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

If the werewolf heal scaled off of Stam and Weapon damage, then we werewolf wouldn't have a reason to stack obserd levels of health nearly all the posts you see on the forums about werewolf is about their 40k+ health. If werewolf stacked health, and proc sets their heal would be close to worthless.

Tbh. it is not only WW issue. A lot of builds today are basically builds that focus on stacking as much heath as possible and as much resistance as possible.

Why ?

Because they get dmg from proc sets that scale with nothing. It is a fixed value. All other stuff in ESO scales with something. DMG dealing proc sets ? Do not. It is an "anomaly".

Previously, those sets were balanced by having additional proc % chance (usually low). So they were unreliable. Not many ppl used them. But since ZOS removed % proc chance and simplified the proc condition (as a part of server calculation stress optimization), even though they nerfed dmg those porc sets do - those all of the sudden became reliable with 90%+ uptime. Also, nowadays we have brutality ring...

That is what happened.

Also, lets ask ourself a question: Was health-scaling healing a problem in the past ? Personally I don't think so. In fact I remember ppl saying and praising ZOS for making some healing abilities to scale with health. I mean, think about it. In order to have decent heal, you have to sacrifice some offensive stats and place them into health, right ? So your dmg output goes down. On WW, in addition to that, you have to have some kind of magicka sustain, or at least some pool of magicka to cast those 2 - 3 heals on a stamina build - hybridizing your build even further, and reducing dmg output.

I think that the solution would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat (stamina or magicka). That would pretty much solve all the "tanky" builds (not only WWs) problem and reduce their amount substantially. Because the problem is not just tanky builds. It is tanky builds with decent dmg. If a tank sacrifices everything to have high resistance and a lot of health - I dont see a problem with that. Even if you will have a health-scaling healing ability you will have no dmg output on a build like this. But not with proc sets, that provide "free" dmg that scales with nothing.

Remember, ideal balanced scenario is when there is no clear winner. So you can have an ultra tanky build vs ultra squishy burst dps build. No clear winner means that DPS can not go through tank's defences reliably, and at the same time tank can not kill squishy dps because of low dmg output.

TLDR:

Making WW heal into stamina ability, would not solve the problem imho. In fact I think it would cause all kind of other problems. It is easy to have 30K+ health, especially in CP PvP, even with medium armour. So what you will get is people would run more stam recovery and further more - they would be able to almost spam heals on a WW as they would not need any magicka sustain. On top of that, they would have more dmg.
I simply think that this would only solve part of the problem (and most likely create new ones), but other health-stacking builds would still be there, unchanged, still running 2 -3 dmg proc sets.

Better way imho would be to simply make dmg dealing proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, leave health-scaling healing as it is, and maybe make brutality ring to not proc other proc sets.

I didn't say make it a stamina ability just make it scale off of stamina and weapon damage.

Proc sets are their own balancing act.

Ok, I understand now. It would still cost magicka, but would scale with max stam / weapon dmg. Hmm... idk about that...

I mean I just assumed that since it will scale with stam / weapon dmg, it would cost stamina too. I don't know if we have some ability like this in ESO at all (cost one offensive resource, but scale with other). I mean, ZOS loves their standards. Health scaling abilities for example take crit rate from highest offensive stat, and those can cost either magicka or stamina.

But, lets assume ZOS will do one exception and allow to have one ability that cost magicka and scales with stamina:

Ok, it may work, I mean there will be less benefit from stacking a lot of health, but I am pretty sure that you will get same (if not stronger) healing on a WW if it would scale with stamina / weapon dmg instead of health, even on a 30 - 35K health build.

I have something around 15K Vigor tooltip (30K stamina, 2K weapon dmg, your average typical stamina build). On a 25K health build, I have also similar tooltip on Hircine's Fortitude - around 15K.
^ Granted, one is HOT and the other is burst heal, but it is probably the closest single target stamina heal you can get to compare.

Now, WW skills are more expensive, but also stronger, (by around 25% I think). So you will get basically 25% stronger burst Vigor that cost magicka. Also it will be buffed further by WW passives (30% more stamina, 18% weapon boost). So, you will probably end up with at least 15K burst heal (at lowest) on more or less 30K+ health build. I am not expert, but with stat-buffing sets instead of proc sets, it may lead to a paradox like having 25+ healing on a 20K health build lol....

Anyway, I think that overall, it is a "solution" but it is only a "partial" solution to a problem. And that problem is not even health-scaling heal, it is the fact that you can run dmg dealing proc sets on a 40+ health build and still dish-out decent dmg. Making heal to scale with stam will of course reduce the healing by a lot on such build - but it will still be decent.

I still think that better way would be to make proc sets to scale with max offensive stat, as imho proc sets that scale with nothing are the reason why people allocate almost everything into health, as there is less benefit in placing them in mag or stam and become "squishier" vs having almost same dmg on top of having 40+ health.

DK's Cauterize, Templar's ritual, and Necromancer's coil all heal off of the user's highest offensive stat, so having hircine's heal work the same way really wouldn't be odd at all.

Do whatever you want to proc sets, nerf um, make um scale off of offensive stats, those are all discussions for a different day, werewolf should never be tweeked because of over performing sets. Overperforming sets should be tweeked because they are Overperforming.

Cough Malacath cough.

Imo Malacath should do what it does, but also stop crit healing.

Hesperax79

In BG there could be 2 simple solution to the WW - infection.

1 - everyone start with 0 Ultimate.
2 - WW will have same timeframe as vampire ultimate

This will solve all the problem I think. If you will WW fast and often - right, you can do but use Salvage gear.

KharnTheUndying

That werewolf timer needs to be fix'd they can stay in that form forever also no class/ultimate should tank 10 people and be unkillable, they nerfed tanking in pvp but ww can do that now so easily and still have tons of damage.