Am I the Jerk: Templar Tanking

Narvuntien

So I got into an argument with my healer doing Spindleclutch 2 on my Templar Tank.
Basically, they were just getting mobbed by trash packs, but as a Templar tank, my tanking style is to just taunt the biggest guy (2h or shield guy) and expect my dps to clear it. Is this the wrong way to be going about tanking?

I don't have any AoE CC any more, since Zos took away my ice wall snare and I don't have a replacement. My healer was complaining I should be using Time stop but that is like 7K Magicka, and that they'd supply me with orbs (My Stam is higher than my Mag so I wouldn't get mag back... I didn't think about this at the time).

To be honest I had basically put my Templar tank away waiting for some help from Zos but with the undaunted event, it takes 15 min to find a group on a DPS and 1 second for a tank.

TlDR; Am I the [snip] for just taunting one guy in a trash pack and hopeing my dps will kill it.

[Minor Title Edit for Censor Bypass]

Viewsfrom6ix

While this may not always be a problem in normal, it definitely will be in vet dungeons.

Tanks should soft taunt trash mobs by going in first. Tank's role at minimum need to draw most aggro and take the majority of the damage.

I wouldn't say you're an [snip], just a wrong expectation of roles.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

zvavi

i actually think that u r not in the wrong, your job is make sure the most of adds are stacked, it means big hitting mobs, with ranged adds, melee weak adds? dds should kite them into the stack. it is not your job to babysit every single add in existence.
and expecting every tank to have psijic to do his role is just wrong.

but ye i miss frost wall snare too.
you could get razor caltrops for aoe breach though (it comes with snare)

VaxtinTheWolf

I never liked the idea ever since Time Stop was introduced, that it was to be considered the answer to a Tank's CC. I believe that every role should have functional CC, Healing, etc WITHIN their CLASS as a base to work with and then have alternatives elsewhere.. Regarding that particular skill, It's an OPTION that requires a player to have access to and have completed enough of said content to unlock said abilities. Back then I was focusing on my Nightblade tank and trying to advocate they get a proper CC, though eventually the effects of Fear were adjusted to become a reliable CC, I didn't have that content so I had to rely on workarounds. I have access to it now for a while but I still haven't done the content yet, so even now no one will see my tanks using that skill. Some years ago I was almost put off trying to make a stamina focused NB tank when one random DPS complained that a single mob dare grazed their royal holy character with their filthy weapons, despite them not being anywhere near dying, later on I returned to the idea with a Magicka focused one instead and really enjoyed it more by then.

Anyway, some of my current tanks also dislike the lack of snare removal from Frost Wall. My Stamina Templar tank lost the Snare from Extended Ritual as well so the only CC it has is if I happen to use a specific Monster Set to get it, or use the morph of Fighter's Guild Circle that has CC, except I actually use the other morph that heals because I'm trying to stack that with Echoing Vigor and Extended Ritual just to keep myself alive in some situations without a burst heal.

I could ramble some more about this but to actually share my thoughts about your situation; No, that is not the wrong way to go about tanking. The healer in question is just used to a tank that is geared to the teeth with usable CC options so they probably don't have to deal with looking at an ugly mob tugging on their robes that often. I would still suggest offering something more if you are lacking in CC. It could be using Silver Leash when you have a spare moment, Adding more healing to supplement the extra damage your team may be taking, or perhaps really digging into the team support stuff to make sure you are being a worthwhile addition to the group in some way. I don't expect any damage out of a tank but if you can do some damage too then I don't mind that in non-DLC dungeons as long as they continue to fill the role of a tank as the priority.

VaranisArano

My minimum expectation for a tank is to hold boss aggro and survive the big hits. If you did that, I'd be cool with it.

With trash packs, a good tank will taunt the priority target - the "big guy" or the hardest hitting mob like the 2handers - and then CC the rest. The goal is to group up the pack so its easier for the DDs to mow them down in the AOEs. It sounds like you were doing the first half, which again, I'd be cool with in a random group.

Now, I usually tank on a DK or Sorc, so I've got different class skill options for my CCs. Like you, my Nightblade used to use the Ice wall of elements. I'm not sure what skill Templar Tanks use for their CC now. Time Stop could work well, but as you say, it gets expensive.

Drdeath20

Aslong as your taunting and keeping yourself alive the rest is all extra. Sounds like your trying but templars make the worst tanks.

The real question becomes did you really need your healer? Sounds more like they do not understand their role in dungeons

Dracane

Taunting one thing is a bit low effort.
I as a sorcerer tank usually tackle this by rooting enemies with encase, stunning them with streak and also healing allies with my matriarch. So even if I do not taunt everything, I at least cripple the adds a lot and keep them at bay.

If this is too much for you, then at least taunt more than just 1 mob. You are not a good tank when all you do is take damage from that single mob you have taunted.

hafgood

Sorry but tanks should be pulling in mobs as well as taunting the big bad, the mobs need stacking so that they go down quickly. Leave the mobs running around and your dd's are going to be running around a lot more and doing less damage to the big bad.

Waffennacht

Is void bash an option?

Jaimeh

If you don't have a convenient CC option in your tool kit, then you don't have a convenient CC option, there's nothing to be done about that, but I'd still try and taunt as many as I could, because especially in PUGs, DDs are careless and let the damage pile up on them, so at best they will kite the stray add to the far ends, and at worst they will die. However, at least in organized groups, I think if you have the hard hitters taunted, then the next most important thing is to stack everything, so they're standing inside the AoEs. Just a note, if you need to replenish magicka (say, between pulls, if you decided to use time stop), the Mage's Guild balance skill is an option, and finally, one morph of circle of protection fears mobs, and although it's not the same as talons for eg., it can give you some time to taunt stuff without them running and hitting the others.

Husan

Templar tank: "I taunt and try to stay alive"

vs.

Sorc tank:

Dracane wrote: »

I as a sorcerer tank usually tackle this by rooting enemies with encase, stunning them with streak and also healing allies with my matriarch. So even if I do not taunt everything, I at least cripple the adds a lot and keep them at bay.

Templar tank:

NoSoup

Narvuntien wrote: »

So I got into an argument with my healer doing Spindleclutch 2 on my Templar Tank.
Basically, they were just getting mobbed by trash packs, but as a Templar tank, my tanking style is to just taunt the biggest guy (2h or shield guy) and expect my dps to clear it. Is this the wrong way to be going about tanking?

I don't have any AoE CC any more, since Zos took away my ice wall snare and I don't have a replacement. My healer was complaining I should be using Time stop but that is like 7K Magicka, and that they'd supply me with orbs (My Stam is higher than my Mag so I wouldn't get mag back... I didn't think about this at the time).

To be honest I had basically put my Templar tank away waiting for some help from Zos but with the undaunted event, it takes 15 min to find a group on a DPS and 1 second for a tank.

TlDR; Am I the [snip] for just taunting one guy in a trash pack and hopeing my dps will kill it.

Backbar Void Bash, this will solve everyone's problems....

Fennwitty

Templar tanks have some challenges, and I expect most PUGS won't understand why you're a little different because Templar tanks are so rare.

With 'trash pack' mobs, try to hit first with an AOE to get their attention, and for a few seconds they'll swarm you. That's where your group will AOE burn most of them down.

Without much alteration, you could always try opening with Spear Shards on a group of mobs then run in. You can also use distance closers then snare (slightly) with Jabs or 'blow up' with a Sun Shield just to hit a bunch of them at once.

If your PUG dps are always first in a room with a Hail of Arrows, they're preventing your soft management.

Razor Caltrops is quite big with a long range, and applies a debuff plus snare. It's great either before or immediately after you charging into a group of enemies with a distance closer. A little practice and you can get the timing right even without a distance closer, just throw it while you're almost in melee range and it should land just as the enemies notice you.

Time Stop cost can be lowered a bit with the two Clairvoyance passives but it is expensive. You might need to alter gear for 'trash pulls' vs. 'boss pulls' and get some more Magicka on the 'trash' to support it. You also get the damage shield from Concentrated Barrier passive as consolation.

The Turn Evil morph in Fighter's Guild Circle of Protection does work nicely as said. A bit small, but trash enemies are frozen in place similar to an immobilize while they're feared.

Wandering_Immigrant

I definitely agree with the healer here. Look at it this way, if all you're doing is taunting one add, are you really adding anything that an additional dps wouldn't be doing? In a 4 dps or 3 dps + 1 healer group someone would be taking that damage and they'd actually be killing that add in the process, so all you're doing is slowing things down.

When people say all a tank needs to do is taunt the biggest add they're talking bare-bones-still-learning-so-it's-ok minimum, it's really only effective as a dps hybrid tank because they can actually kill that add. A true tank needs to group things. You could technically do that by taunting and leashing everything, but it's much more cost and time efficient to have an AOE CC.

My Templar tank uses Turn Evil. It's not my favorite AOE CC, it has a small radius and I prefer the conal options other classes have, but it's my favorite one for Templar tank. I've tried Time Stop, I can handle the cost on my Templar, but I can't stand the delay. I like things to happen fast when I tank and so a delay on one of my most important tools is a big no-no for me.

A typical trash pull on my Templar goes something like this; attack from range on the approach so that the mobs all pull in my direction, ideally I'll use inner fire on the biggest threat for this initial attack just to get that out of the way. I then continue charging in and just before they reach me I lay down wall of shock followed by turn evil. I then use leash on a strangler or two followed by another puncture or two on the next biggest threats. I then recast wall, recast turn evil and again leash one or two and puncture one or two. At this point everything should be dead, if not rinse and repeat. Mix in your buffs, debuffs, blocks and bashes and you get the point. Your goal should be to control the entire room, that's what a tank brings that other roles can't and it's what makes up for their lack of offense.

Anyone who knows how to block can just occupy the biggest threat.

MudcrabAttack

Templars have a 6m radius AOE taunt that lasts 15 seconds. It can be used as often as you want.
I use it for my especially squishy low CP DPS friends dipping their toes into vet dungeons.

Slot the tormenter set from banished cells and use explosive charge to the middle of a crowd. And expect to get hit a lot.

The other tank I've been running for this undaunted event is my typical Stamblade dps with the vampire ring equipped and inner fire to hold boss aggro, but I only do that for all the groups of friends who don't have tanks

Dracane

Husan wrote: »

Templar tank: "I taunt and try to stay alive"

vs.

Sorc tank:

Dracane wrote: »

I as a sorcerer tank usually tackle this by rooting enemies with encase, stunning them with streak and also healing allies with my matriarch. So even if I do not taunt everything, I at least cripple the adds a lot and keep them at bay.

Templar tank:

You are exaggerating, Husan.
Magicka Templar is my second favorite tank class because they have the strongest damage shield in the game in some situations with radiant ward, which is my prefered way of tanking instead of holding block. Living Dark is also great for trash pulls in dungeons because it roots and stuns. And in case I must block, repentance gives me infinite stamina most of the time.

I do not think templar is nearly as bad as everyone says. I always considered them a natural tank and heal class and the way I use it, it satisfies my needs.

Then there is tools available for everyone. Everyone can use silver leash to pull in mobs.

ccfeeling

DPS POV , as you are templar tank , you provide something other tank don't , and you miss something other tank do .
You don't really have to taunt everything and pack everything together
SP2 , trashes are trashes , DPS can kill those trashes by few rotation , you pull you cc and they died in few seconds , tbh , you don't have to do that unless the contents pretty hard like VBRP .

Because of PVP nerfing , time stop became super expensive , PVE tank actually cannot use it .

I think we all know that the original intention of psijic order skill line is using for compensate the weakness of classes .
Such as spam skill , cc , resource management .

They cannot balance both world , they gave up one .

Narvuntien

Interesting and some options, as I said I hadn't updated my tank since I lost my wall of ice.

My sets are Ebon, Yolvakiin, Lord Warden. I really like this set up so I am reluctant to change that.

I guess I have to run battlegrounds to get caltrops I guess. (AD for life not swapping for this)

Drdeath20

Your wearing sets/skills to buff the group, your taunting (1 by 1) and doing your best not to die. The useless healer is crying about you not slotting time stop for a non dlc trash mob but guess what, they have far more bar space to do that and could be better for all if they did.

You are not a jerk. People need to recognize that being a tank is not easy and that its a thankless job. Lets be real bad dps or a healer who cant adapt is more often the problem than the tank.

jekyto

Thats bs, theres nothing wrong with time stop. Use points on passives and it costs around 5k. If you use masters sword and board, youll have no prob going for spell symetry instead of balance. Blockade - spell symetry - time stop - taunt taunt taunt. Never had sustain or aggro issues. Also can go with swarm mothers monster set and you wont need silver leash

NoMoreChillies

Vateshran Shield + Caltops

makes any tank have AOE tuant

hcbigdogdoghc

Try Hypnosis from the vampire skill line. Templars have 5% skill cost reduction which offsets vampire's skill cost increase.

universal_wrath

Narvuntien wrote: »

So I got into an argument with my healer doing Spindleclutch 2 on my Templar Tank.
Basically, they were just getting mobbed by trash packs, but as a Templar tank, my tanking style is to just taunt the biggest guy (2h or shield guy) and expect my dps to clear it. Is this the wrong way to be going about tanking?

I don't have any AoE CC any more, since Zos took away my ice wall snare and I don't have a replacement. My healer was complaining I should be using Time stop but that is like 7K Magicka, and that they'd supply me with orbs (My Stam is higher than my Mag so I wouldn't get mag back... I didn't think about this at the time).

To be honest I had basically put my Templar tank away waiting for some help from Zos but with the undaunted event, it takes 15 min to find a group on a DPS and 1 second for a tank.

TlDR; Am I the [snip] for just taunting one guy in a trash pack and hopeing my dps will kill it.

[Minor Title Edit for Censor Bypass]

You tanking method is both right and wrong at the same time. Game right now interduced some adds tgat from first gkance seem harmless,but can actually kill DDs or healers. For instant, some normal mobs in moon hunter keep do little damage but every few secs they do jumping attacks that can one shot everyone beside tanks. Some of these mobs does exist in non DLC dungeons like elden hollow 2, all mobs there deals considerable to tanks and can kill dps or healers with 3-4 simultinous hits if tanks lets them run loose...etc

Unfortunately, templar tanks are the classes with least utility and group support. You can componsate for that with non class skills. Caltraps is a great skill I alway yse it on my tank and healer. If you are the first person to hit targets wuth caltraps, it is basically aoe taunt. Caltraps cover a huge area and deals with important debuffs, first is snare and sec9nd is major fracture. To get the most use of caltraps, I pair it with time stop. That way, you have the ultimate crowd control in the game beside negate. If you cannot afford casting time stop every few secs, you use turn evil, that is fighter guild fear. Also, you can be a vampire and use mesmerise as well. When playing templar tank, you have impervise for support and utility or you fall behind all other classes be large margin.

Husan

I play my templar as a "fake" tank. I'm running 64 points into health, but use my vateshran hollows set up of 5 deadly, 5 vicious serpent, ring of pale order, 1 trainee or 1 monster set piece with maelstrom bow on backbar with health and stam regen food on an orc. This leaves me with about 33k health, which is enough to take any hits in non-DLC vet dungeons (and some vet too) and around 20k boss dps while tanking or even up to 30k if I don't need to block any heavy attacks since ring of pale order is keeping me healed.

skills: trap beast, biting jabs, silver leash, hircines fortitude*, resolving vigor, flawless dawnbreaker
backbar: endless hail, power of the light, repentance, restoring focus, inner rage

*hircine fortitude gives major brutality (20% weapon damage) passively when slotted. I am cheap and don't use weapon damage potions in most content. Replace with another fighter guild skill if using weapon damage potions.

Trash packs: drop endless hail on the trash pack for soft taunt, jump into them and start pulling them with silver leash. Some are naughty and run away, but most mobs are nicely stacked very quickly and then you can start jabbing to help DDs clear the pack, repentance them to fill stamina, run to the next pack, rinse and repeat.

Bosses: taunt, block heavys, avoid nasty AoEs, and do normal DPS rotation (endless hail, trap, jab, ultimate when ready).

Works really well in all normal content (what doesn't? ) and all vet basegame dungeons, including hard modes. I ran it in vICP and vWGT hard mode without an issue, but I wouldn't push further into vet DLCs with this build. Works best with 3 DDs that don't need to rely on a healer. If you really wanted to, you could drop ring of pale order and run with a healer but that just means less DPS. And once you get used to the speed of 3DDs+tank you're never going to want to go back to playing with a proper healer anyway, even when using a proper tank and pushing vet DLCs. This is the most optimal way to play the game right now.

Dracane

Husan wrote: »

I play my templar as a "fake" tank. I'm running 64 points into health, but use my vateshran hollows set up of 5 deadly, 5 vicious serpent, ring of pale order, 1 trainee or 1 monster set piece with maelstrom bow on backbar with health and stam regen food on an orc. This leaves me with about 33k health, which is enough to take any hits in non-DLC vet dungeons (and some vet too) and around 20k boss dps while tanking or even up to 30k if I don't need to block any heavy attacks since ring of pale order is keeping me healed.

skills: trap beast, biting jabs, silver leash, hircines fortitude*, resolving vigor, flawless dawnbreaker
backbar: endless hail, power of the light, repentance, restoring focus, inner rage

*hircine fortitude gives major brutality (20% weapon damage) passively when slotted. I am cheap and don't use weapon damage potions in most content. Replace with another fighter guild skill if using weapon damage potions.

Trash packs: drop endless hail on the trash pack for soft taunt, jump into them and start pulling them with silver leash. Some are naughty and run away, but most mobs are nicely stacked very quickly and then you can start jabbing to help DDs clear the pack, repentance them to fill stamina, run to the next pack, rinse and repeat.

Bosses: taunt, block heavys, avoid nasty AoEs, and do normal DPS rotation (endless hail, trap, jab, ultimate when ready).

Works really well in all normal content (what doesn't? ) and all vet basegame dungeons, including hard modes. I ran it in vICP and vWGT hard mode without an issue, but I wouldn't push further into vet DLCs with this build. Works best with 3 DDs that don't need to rely on a healer. If you really wanted to, you could drop ring of pale order and run with a healer but that just means less DPS. And once you get used to the speed of 3DDs+tank you're never going to want to go back to playing with a proper healer anyway, even when using a proper tank and pushing vet DLCs. This is the most optimal way to play the game right now.

That is a nice advantage though, being able to deal good damage as a tank. These are higher than some DDs.
Also, have more faith in you! You can easily do veteran dungeons. It is really not a challenge at all for any tank.

I miss the times before they reworked how damage shields work. I miss my 64k magicka sorcerer tank that pulled over 300k aoe dps by spamming the old volatile familiar. That was so nice with the magicka scaling shields. Well, I had 11k health and one mistake would result in my untimely demise though.

Your last point is something I love about sorcerer and templar tank particularly. I can heal and tank without problems at the same time. My boyfriend always queues as a healer and I perform both roles. Makes dungeons so fast and easy. I feel like sorcerer and templar look odd and gimmicky at first glance, though I firmly believe they have a high skill ceiling as in being very rewarding with what you can pull off. I dare say, you can master situations a traditional tank might not be able to.

Narvuntien

Okay, today I tried out Time stop again, for the first time since the huge cost increase... and it was fine.
I have a lot of Mag since I was using it for ice wall and basically, I don't need it for any of my other skills (sun shield kinda)

I guess I am the jerk. Clearly used to tanking trials rather than dungeons, where you have 9 DPS to slaughter the trash (or no trash at all)

I do not have Caltrops unlocked or the Markath DLC. But I feel like I'd be using way too much Stam for Caltrops and Silver Leash and taunt and slash that I wouldn't have any left to block.

jekyto

Use repentance and you wont have stamina issues in trash packs

Starlock

Narvuntien wrote: »

Okay, today I tried out Time stop again, for the first time since the huge cost increase... and it was fine.
I have a lot of Mag since I was using it for ice wall and basically, I don't need it for any of my other skills (sun shield kinda)

I guess I am the jerk. Clearly used to tanking trials rather than dungeons, where you have 9 DPS to slaughter the trash (or no trash at all)

I do not have Caltrops unlocked or the Markath DLC. But I feel like I'd be using way too much Stam for Caltrops and Silver Leash and taunt and slash that I wouldn't have any left to block.

Honestly, you're fine.

In my experience, the main problem I have while tanking is that one of the other players almost inevitably runs ahead of me and grabs all the initial aggression. That's going to make your job harder and there's not much you can do about it. Because this happens more often than not, I don't even bother slotting an ability to grab initial aggression. I usually don't get the chance to.

But if I am actually running with a more organized group, you have options other than caltrops to grab initial aggression. You know what's really fun about templar tanking? Throwing shards at the feet of damage dealers who get confused about templar tanks existing. But your shards can also be used as an AoE to grab initial aggression from mobs. The AoE isn't as large, but it is good enough. From there, I just plink a few arrows in the other mobs outside of its radius. Yes, I use a bow - it has a root. My bow is my root, which you otherwise lack as a templar tank. Then, as others mentioned, I use turn evil for a solid CC that freezes enemies. Time stop isn't worth it anymore after the ridiculous cost increase, but I'm also a stamina-focused templar so unless I'm using tri-stat food I only have like 10k magicka... haha.

thadjarvis

Not using silver leash? That is a standard expectation even in many trials.

How did you loose your Frost staff? It'll help keep a stack.

Have you tried Vate sword and board? if you don't enjoy working to make a great stack then just use this and taunt the elites.

Many pulls are best stacked with LoS; though many pug groups don't cooperate with that.

Timestop is good; if your chain is stamina you have the mag to use it. IMO if there's a healer that's not doing damage, they should be using this on cooldown leaving you more GCDs to taunt/chain.

Joy_Division

Narvuntien wrote: »

So I got into an argument with my healer doing Spindleclutch 2 on my Templar Tank.
Basically, they were just getting mobbed by trash packs, but as a Templar tank, my tanking style is to just taunt the biggest guy (2h or shield guy) and expect my dps to clear it. Is this the wrong way to be going about tanking?

I don't have any AoE CC any more, since Zos took away my ice wall snare and I don't have a replacement. My healer was complaining I should be using Time stop but that is like 7K Magicka, and that they'd supply me with orbs (My Stam is higher than my Mag so I wouldn't get mag back... I didn't think about this at the time).

To be honest I had basically put my Templar tank away waiting for some help from Zos but with the undaunted event, it takes 15 min to find a group on a DPS and 1 second for a tank.

TlDR; Am I the [snip] for just taunting one guy in a trash pack and hopeing my dps will kill it.

[Minor Title Edit for Censor Bypass]

Templar Tank is certainly tough as you have less good tools to make use of.

Generally, a tank shouldn't just taunt the biggest bad guy and leave a dozen others roaming around. As a dd/healer I can handle a few untaunted mobs, but what separates a good tank from just someone with a sword and board is the good tank makes an effort to taunt multiple mobs and gather them in one spot to be AoEd down. The Fighter's guild crossbow pulls enemies that you will find useful for this. Or throw a shard at a pack of enemies to damage them first and move around poking them with the puncture skill.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Timestop is not the answer, that is for sure. Not saying it cant be a useful tool, but to act like you are a bad tank for not running it is nonsense. That said, you should try to taunt a handful of things in most trashpulls. You also need something for better crowd control. SIlver Leash (FG line) is certainly something to take a look at. It is not a hard taunt, but it will help you position them and temporarily draw agro. Most things like mages and archers dont need an actual taunt. Pull them to you, and even if they quickly go for someone else, they will be standing in all your group AOE and wont last long.

On your typically trash pull, I like to identify the top 3 threats and taunt them as I run through them. Setup shop in a decent chokepoint or maybe just the corner of the room, drop down blockade, both to act as another soft taunt and to apply your crusher enchant, and then chain (silver leash) the ranged adds into me. Thanks to repentance, you can get very spammy with silver leash in trash pulls. If you see an add going for one of your other group members, try to make them a priority to hit them with leash or a ranged taunt.

Templar is certainly not a great choice for trial tanking, but for 4 man, I actually like it. You have SIlver leash for chaining (so does everyone), good sources of sustain and resistances, and you don't really need a healer because your self heals are stronger than most, you can cleanse DOT's, etc. Maybe not the best pure tank, but they work very well for 1 tank 3 DPS setups.