Even Stam Overland Procsets better than Mag DLC Procset?

BalticBlues

Most people do not play Magicka in PvP anymore
because HeavyStam+Malakath+Procset works much better
AND siege weapons are shredding Light Armor.

After re-trying my old Mag PvP build with Caluurion after several months,
even the damage feels weak compared to the recently buffed StamProcsets.
Even cheap Stam Overland procsets people can just buy for gold
are now better than this (once precious) Mag DLC dungeon set. Example:

Caluurion's Legacy (Magicka)
Type Dungeon (FangLair)
(2 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) When you deal direct Critical Damage with a single target attack, you launch a Fire, Ice, Shock, or Disease ball at your target that deals 14200 damage and applies a status effect. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
https://eso-sets.com/set/caluurions-legacy

Unfathomable Darkness (Stam)
Type Overland
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 1487 Physical Penetration
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you call a murder of crows around you for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds a crow will be sent to peck the closest enemy within 12 meters of you, dealing 6020 Physical Damage (x4=24080). This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.
https://eso-sets.com/set/unfathomable-darkness

Comparison:
Proc condition: critical PLUS single target damage VS. ANY damage
Raw damage per proc time sec: 1420 VS. 1605
Vehicle speed: EXTREMELY SLOW ball (easy to dodge) vs. HIGH SPEED CROW (99% undodgeable)
Malacath compatible: NO vs. YES

Overall, the cheap Stam Overland Procset wins pretty much in EVERY ASPECT.
ZOS, can you please explain this example of the latest "Excel table balancing"?
I suggest at least to remove the Critical Damage requirement for MagProcs,
so that MagPlayers also can play in HeavyArmor to survive and benefit from Malacath.

ManDraKE

give me an stamina calurion and i will one shot you from stealth every single time. You wont be able to even cc break

Be careful with comparisions, you are not comparing apple to apples. Magika procsets are also very overpowered, there isn't much difference if you know how to build. MagDKs and Magdens with procsets are some of the most obnoxious setups in the game.

Vevvev

ManDraKE wrote: »

give me an stamina calurion and i will one shot you from stealth every single time. You wont be able to even cc break

Be careful with comparisions, you are not comparing apple to apples. Magika procsets are also very overpowered, there isn't much difference if you know how to build. MagDKs and Magdens with procsets are some of the most obnoxious setups in the game.

As someone who used Caluurion on my magDK in PVP one time I can confirm this! Be careful what you compare.

BalticBlues

Sorry, playing both Stamina and Magicka in PvP these days, I clearly notice how old Caluurion just plainly sucks compared to the recently buffed Stamina Procsets. Caluurions complex proc conditition, the long visual announcement, the extremely slow projectile and expecially the incompatibilty with Malacath makes it suck so bad, YOU DONT SEE IT ANYMORE IN PVP. Honestly, when was the last time you saw it or even died from it? I cannot remember anymore.

I played PvP each day on PS4 EU this week, and honestly, I didn't see Caluurion even once. 90% of people now run around with 2H/Shield, 30-50k health and 29-33k resistance. These people would probably laugh on Caluurion, which is so slow it would never reach or just tickle them. Magicka players at least should also be able to play in HeavyArmor to survive and benefit from Malacath when playing old Caluurion.

Homogenization these days means "PvP = 90% HeavyStam + Proc + Malacath". Isn't this uniformity pretty BORING? Understandable though, as this combo almost plays like god mode now. When I use my Heavy DK Tank Build, 4 ppl hardly can kill me, sometimes even 8 are clueless, while I still can kill one of them. A Caluurion attack? I wonder if we will ever see them again...

EDIT: Caluurion even must have been stealth-nerfed recently. My Sorc proced about 4-5k more damage when I once goldened the set. But this year the nerfed damage does not even justify using this slow-motion set anymore at all. Another Magicka set bites the dust...

PhoenixGrey

Magicka classes are PVE only. Not sure why anyone would bother with Magicka in PVP anymore

Fawn4287

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Magicka classes are PVE only. Not sure why anyone would bother with Magicka in PVP anymore

Magica are for group play and duelling, take magdk for example, pretty much always an A tier duelling build but terrible for 1vX, try getting wrecking blowed spammed with 3 malacath buffed magdk dots and a grothdar ticking away on you.

Joy_Division

I hate both sets. You're comparing trash gameplay to trash gameplay as far as I'm concerned.

BalticBlues

I liked Caluurion when the damage was worth it. It was hard to hit somebody with the slow ball, but it was fun getting closer to risk it - instead of running away from almost invincible wrecking blow tanks which is most of Magicka gameplay now in the 2020-HeavyStam-Malacath-Procset PvP meta I fully agree to you that nerfed Caluurion now is trash...

MellowMagic

My icy conjurer, winterborn, vateshran destro, malacath warden build disagrees.

BalticBlues

Indeed, Icy Conjuror is the last Magicka procset that is up to par with Stam.
After the Magicka nerf train, I am also playing it on all magicka toons
which used other nerfed sets before, like Caluurion or Overwhelming.

BalticBlues

However, we should not write about Icy here, because it might get the nerf hammer as well... Pretty much every Magicka playstyle which posed a threat to the known StamTubers was hammer-nerfed over the the last 24 months... Against the HeavyStam-Malacath-Procset horde, it now often feels like playing one of the last Gauls vs. the Roman Imperial tank flood.

DonGodJoe

Cant read this.. so much defence from warden and dk mains only

Joinovikova

BalticBlues wrote: »

Most people do not play Magicka in PvP anymore
because HeavyStam+Malakath+Procset works so much better.
One reason is that most people cannot use LightArmor anymore,
because the recently buffed Stam Procsets are ripping LA apart.

After re-trying my old Mag PvP build with Caluurion after several months,
even the damage feels weak compared to the recently buffed StamProcsets.
Even cheap Stam Overland procsets people can just buy for gold
are now better than this (once precious) Mag DLC dungeon set. Example:

Caluurion's Legacy (Magicka)
Type Dungeon (FangLair)
(2 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) When you deal direct Critical Damage with a single target attack, you launch a Fire, Ice, Shock, or Disease ball at your target that deals 14200 damage and applies a status effect. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
https://eso-sets.com/set/caluurions-legacy

Unfathomable Darkness (Stam)
Type Overland
(2 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(3 items) Adds 1487 Physical Penetration
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage, you call a murder of crows around you for 12 seconds. Every 3 seconds a crow will be sent to peck the closest enemy within 12 meters of you, dealing 6020 Physical Damage (x4=24080). This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.
https://eso-sets.com/set/unfathomable-darkness

Comparison:
Proc condition: critical PLUS single target damage VS. ANY damage
Raw damage per proc time sec: 1420 VS. 1605
Vehicle speed: EXTREME SLOW ball (easy to dodge) vs. HIGH SPEED CROW (99% undodgeable)
Malacath compatible: NO vs. YES

Overall, the cheap Stam Overland Procset wins pretty much in EVERY ASPECT.
ZOS, can you please explain this example of the latest "Excel table balancing"?
I suggest at least to remove the Critical Damage requirement for MagProcs,
so that MagPlayers also can play in HeavyArmor to survive and benefit from Malacath.

its hard to compate this I think better comparsion should be to sets like


(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(4 items) Adds 833 Weapon Critical
(5 items) When you deal damage with a weapon, you spawn a volcano that erupts after 1 second, launching liquid hot lava at the closest enemy dealing 12840 Flame Damage. This effect can occur once every 8 seconds.
////////
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon Damage and Spell Damage
(5 items) When using a fully-charged melee Heavy Attack on a taunted monster or any enemy who is stunned, feared, or immobilized, you will deal 12507 Physical Damage. This effect can occur once every 4 seconds


also Caluurion's Legacy cant be bosst with malacath


u can also build heavy tank on mag with proc sets at least in case of warden a magDK.. and be reallty near to stam counterparts ( stam is still better but u can play)
u can use winterborn, vateshran destro, gothar, oblivon foe, syvarna scales .. there are options for mag

from my point of view stam is generally better for solo and small scale and ussualy have better classs toolikd for heavy high health proc sets tanks and also better in melee thanks to have more weapon damage form 2h compared to staff (and most of tanks simply have to fight in melee)..

since zos decided to limit ability only to group and limit group to 12 it start to be no reason to even play mag since their area of advantage was nerfed.. I hope they will adress it in next patch and offer solo only boosted heals, clean to mag build.. to decrease the gap..

i also hope they will completly rework proc sets to scale with offensice ability and able to crit so we will be free from must use malacath..which is must have on many classesand builds at least in nonCP and BGs...

but back to topic from my point of view the current proc sets meta is problem for this game.. balance between mag and stam proc sets is mostly ok...

Juhasow

ManDraKE wrote: »

give me an stamina calurion and i will one shot you from stealth every single time. You wont be able to even cc break

Be careful with comparisions, you are not comparing apple to apples. Magika procsets are also very overpowered, there isn't much difference if you know how to build. MagDKs and Magdens with procsets are some of the most obnoxious setups in the game.

You can use caluurion on stam build anyway. When it comes to one shots from stealth You'll not be loosing that much stats when compared to magicka setups.

RiskyChalice863

Those two sets aren’t actually comparable. Caluurion’s is a burst damage proc set while Unfathomable Darkness is basically a DoT proc set. You can’t have a burst damage proc set that is as easy to trigger and does as much damage per proc time as a DoT proc set, otherwise it’s just strictly better.

The better comparison would be something like Icy Conjurer or Syvarra.

BalticBlues

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Those two sets aren’t actually comparable. Caluurion’s is a burst damage proc set while Unfathomable Darkness is basically a DoT proc set.

These sets ARE comparable, because in the current Heavy+Malakath+Procset meta where 90% of people run around with almost MAX resistance, burst damage now is only relevant for spamables, not for Procsets with a time lock. PvP time locked Procsets currently are measured only about how much damage they can do over time. Moreover, Procsets which do not work with Malakath are pretty much useless now. Caluurion's ONLY usage was in PvP, but in the currenty meta, it is even outperformed by Overland worksets ppl can just buy, are easier to proc, cannot be simply dodged, work with Malakath and do more damage over the same Proc time lock.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The better comparison would be something like Icy Conjurer

Then ask yourself: Why EVER use Caluurion when you can use Icy Conjuror?

Caluurion's best usage was when played in light armor with pets, because then ppl sometimes did not notice the incredibly slow projectile. But as LA in group play today means suicide during sieges (siege weapons shred LA) and pets have been nerfed so much that they are are waste of a skill now in PvP, for regular gameplay without pets, Caluurion has become a WASTE of a Proc set.

Suggestion to make Caluurion useful again:
Proc condition: critical PLUS single target damage

Neatle

You're literally comparing 2 different set with 2 different design

one is pointing toward bursting the target and applies a status effect
the other slowly dealing long term damage (DPSing in a way) and is not really targeted

PS: Clockworkcity is a dlc too and i'd rather have a stamina caluurion's legacy for my stam dps than UD set

BalticBlues

Neatle wrote: »

You're literally comparing 2 different set with 2 different design

That's right, but in the end it is about comparing RESULTS.

Comparing results, it is sad that even a cheap Overland set like Unfathomable Darkness
which people can just buy in the guild stores
these days shows better results than the nerfed Caluurion DLC set which has to be earned.

Comparing Caluurion DLC set even with a worthy DLC set like Icy Conjurer,
Caluurion these days just sucks and has become a waste of a set. Why?

ZOS pls adjust Caluurion so that it is useful again in PvP.

Dracane

BalticBlues wrote: »

Indeed, Icy Conjuror is the last Magicka procset that is up to par with Stam.
After the Magicka nerf train, I am also playing it on all magicka toons
which used other nerfed sets before, like Caluurion or Overwhelming.

Then again, Icy Conjurer is extremely slow, can be dodged and goes on a 10 seconds cooldown even when it misses.
Most stamina sets are inevitable and thus can not fail or they have very forgivable cooldowns. Like Merciless Charge which has none and Unleashed Terror which has a cooldown per target.

I actually can not think of a single stamina proc set other than crimson guard, that is avoidable in any way. Zaan, Icy and Caalurion are slow or easily avoided in most cases. I despise all proc sets, though saying any magicka proc sets holds a candle to stamina ones, is blasphemy.

Joosef_Kivikilpi

BalticBlues wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Those two sets aren’t actually comparable. Caluurion’s is a burst damage proc set while Unfathomable Darkness is basically a DoT proc set.

These sets ARE comparable, because in the current Heavy+Malakath+Procset meta where 90% of people run around with almost MAX resistance, burst damage now is only relevant for spamables, not for Procsets with a time lock. PvP time locked Procsets currently are measured only about how much damage they can do over time. Moreover, Procsets which do not work with Malakath are pretty much useless now. Caluurion's ONLY usage was in PvP, but in the currenty meta, it is even outperformed by Overland worksets ppl can just buy, are easier to proc, cannot be simply dodged, work with Malakath and do more damage over the same Proc time lock.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The better comparison would be something like Icy Conjurer

Then ask yourself: Why EVER use Caluurion when you can use Icy Conjuror?

Caluurion's best usage was when played in light armor with pets, because then ppl sometimes did not notice the incredibly slow projectile. But as LA in group play today means suicide during sieges (siege weapons shred LA) and pets have been nerfed so much that they are are waste of a skill now in PvP, for regular gameplay without pets, Caluurion has become a WASTE of a Proc set.

Suggestion to make Caluurion useful again:
Proc condition: critical PLUS single target damage

*Slips out from chat after realizing people don't want to hear about Nightblades ruining kids' dreams without Malacath with classic Caluurion + Icy Conjuror combo*

haha! the one comment I have is I personally think Icy Conjuror is now subpar to stamina proc sets like Unleashed Terror giving that ability to proc once every 10 seconds PER TARGET while Icy Conjuror is once per 10 seconds. Imagine the glory if those procs were per target as well for magic lolz

Mettaricana

Remember us stamina characters gotta double dip into our resource pools you can doge and spam shields and attack from afar. Stam players our block dodge damage and damage shields(brawler) all draws from the same pool so a better proc set on stam makes sense since we have to be in your face to do most of our damage save for snipe blades which work well but tend to disintegrate in a flash of lightning and fire when caught.

BalticBlues

Mettaricana wrote: »

Remember us stamina characters gotta double dip into our resource pools you can doge and spam shields.

We have 2021, not 2017 anymore. Today, shields mostly are a WASTE of a slot in PvP. And dodges have always been so costly on MagChars, you can do them only in emergency or you are dead because you cannot break free anymore. Since Malacath and the new procset meta, HA Stam players rule the PvP battlefield. Therefore MagPlayers need to use Malacath, procsets and HA as well - but this does not work if Mag procsets like Caluurion do NOT work with Malacath. ZOS, pls fix this.

ZOS, and when you are at it: Update 29 will bring even more misery to LA. WHY? For the increased incoming physical damage LA needs usable shields in PvP again. The current shields suck so badly in PvP (costly, half-sized, and especially with the tiny resistance of LA), no classes except Sorcs (due to their Streak mobility) can use LA and shields. With the incoming LA nerf, please make shields useful again in PvP. Give them full size again or give them the resistance of HA. But both nerfs combined simply are too much against the 2020 HA-Malacath-Procset meta.

michaelarryn

What game are you knuckleheads playing? All I see in BGs are casters, bow spammers, and overly tanky builds.

Armethius

MellowMagic wrote: »

My icy conjurer, winterborn, vateshran destro, malacath warden build disagrees.

I'll knock out a stam set up with my magden all night long, and it usually takes a well organized 3+ players to take me down. Magicka is possible, you have to really understand it and constantly be upgrading optimizing based on the meta.

Xeniph

BalticBlues wrote: »

Sorry, playing both Stamina and Magicka in PvP these days, I clearly notice how old Caluurion just plainly sucks compared to the recently buffed Stamina Procsets. Caluurions complex proc conditition, the long visual announcement, the extremely slow projectile and expecially the incompatibilty with Malacath makes it suck so bad, YOU DONT SEE IT ANYMORE IN PVP. Honestly, when was the last time you saw it or even died from it? I cannot remember anymore.

I played PvP each day on PS4 EU this week, and honestly, I didn't see Caluurion even once. 90% of people now run around with 2H/Shield, 30-50k health and 29-33k resistance. These people would probably laugh on Caluurion, which is so slow it would never reach or just tickle them. Magicka players at least should also be able to play in HeavyArmor to survive and benefit from Malacath when playing old Caluurion.

Homogenization these days means "PvP = 90% HeavyStam + Proc + Malacath". Isn't this uniformity pretty BORING? Understandable though, as this combo almost plays like god mode now. When I use my Heavy DK Tank Build, 4 ppl hardly can kill me, sometimes even 8 are clueless, while I still can kill one of them. A Caluurion attack? I wonder if we will ever see them again...

EDIT: Caluurion even must have been stealth-nerfed recently. My Sorc proced about 4-5k more damage when I once goldened the set. But this year the nerfed damage does not even justify using this slow-motion set anymore at all. Another Magicka set bites the dust...

BalticBlues wrote: »

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

Those two sets aren’t actually comparable. Caluurion’s is a burst damage proc set while Unfathomable Darkness is basically a DoT proc set.

These sets ARE comparable, because in the current Heavy+Malakath+Procset meta where 90% of people run around with almost MAX resistance, burst damage now is only relevant for spamables, not for Procsets with a time lock. PvP time locked Procsets currently are measured only about how much damage they can do over time. Moreover, Procsets which do not work with Malakath are pretty much useless now. Caluurion's ONLY usage was in PvP, but in the currenty meta, it is even outperformed by Overland worksets ppl can just buy, are easier to proc, cannot be simply dodged, work with Malakath and do more damage over the same Proc time lock.

RiskyChalice863 wrote: »

The better comparison would be something like Icy Conjurer

Then ask yourself: Why EVER use Caluurion when you can use Icy Conjuror?

Caluurion's best usage was when played in light armor with pets, because then ppl sometimes did not notice the incredibly slow projectile. But as LA in group play today means suicide during sieges (siege weapons shred LA) and pets have been nerfed so much that they are are waste of a skill now in PvP, for regular gameplay without pets, Caluurion has become a WASTE of a Proc set.

Suggestion to make Caluurion useful again:
Proc condition: critical PLUS single target damage

My mageblade ganker has to disagree with you. Caluurian's hits on average 7-8k and upwards of 11k+ in CP cyrodiil.

Flame Blossom also hits for 6-8k. These numbers are achieved on these so called 35k+health warden/DK/Stamcro Tanks. The numbers can be a bit higher on squishies.

If done properly in melee range with a stun they both are unavoidable and proc at the same time.

These 2 sets tied with certain skills/buffs and whatnot IS the most damage one can achieve in a gank set up in the game. It even oiutperforms stamina ganking by a mile, to include heavy attack, Doylemish and Snipe builds. It's actually quite disgusting.


So by all means buff it, but mark my words, very few people would like the outcome. Except folks like me :P