Real Problem of Pvp in Cyrodil - Elder Stamina Online

UntouchableHunter

Give a execute to mag class and everything will be balanced 💪

Sergykid

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Give a execute to mag class and everything will be balanced 💪

no it won't. Only half of the mag classes do not have a class execute. And if you still want a mag execute, you have fire ring from destro staff that's also undodgeable (i think) being aoe.

stam survivability is superior to magicka because roll dodging a lot. Mag players hardly have undodgeable attacks. Maybe a solution would instead be increasing the fatigue cost exponentially. First roll dodge 2k stam, next 4k stam, next 8k stam.

SshadowSscale

seriously if stamina dodge roll is that op why not just give magicka a dodge roll too?

JayKwellen

Doczy wrote: »

why %80 of pvp is stamina characters with tanky proc sets with dizzy /dawnbreaker/exec have you ever thought about it?

@Doczy Yes I have thought about it, they were all being used well before the proc meta and the reason so many classes run those three abilities is because:

DIzzy because Sorc, DK, and Necro don't have a usable spammable. Warden does but it's still subpar in most situations.

Dawnbreaker because Sorc, Warden, and necro lack instant burst ultimates. NBs lack an AoE ultimate.

Execute because every class lacks an execute except NB, and NBs rarely use theirs as it's not that good in PvP and the 2H execute is better.

They use those abilities because they don't have anything to use in their class kits. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Unless of course you're suggesting every class should be completely overhauled to offer viable stamina morphs of all abilities?

Nord_Raseri

"Elder Stamina Online". Wasn't too long ago it was referred to as Elder Staves Online.

wheem_ESO

JayKwellen wrote: »

Doczy wrote: »

why %80 of pvp is stamina characters with tanky proc sets with dizzy /dawnbreaker/exec have you ever thought about it?

They use those abilities because they don't have anything to use in their class kits. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Unless of course you're suggesting every class should be completely overhauled to offer viable stamina morphs of all abilities?

This is always the argument, but it's not 100% honest. If every Stamina build had access to a class-based spammable that was balanced vs magicka spammables, they'd simply scoff and keep using Dizzying Swing. There's always a lot of complaining about how hard it supposedly is to land Dizzying Swing, and how having ranged abilities is super duper important. Yet, virtually every Stamina Warden and Stamina Necromancer toss their ranged, instant cast, class-based spammables in the garbage use Dizzying Swing instead.

A lot of the people who say that alternative Stamina-based spammables are bad seemingly fail to realize that it's because those other spammables are balanced against Magicka abilities. It's actually Dizzying Swing that's the outlier, and Stamina builds absolutely 100% do not need access to other spammables that are comparable to it unless most Magicka spammables get some significant buffs.

Waffennacht

Very informative. Very much so indeed, this thread has taught me quite a bit

Bergzorn

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

"Elder Stamina Online". Wasn't too long ago it was referred to as Elder Staves Online.

When was that, around One Tamriel? That's quite a while ago for a game. And even back then it was mostly because of the destro staff ultimate, which got grossly overbuffed from PTS to live.

Magica has its perks, but is kept on its toes by the need to build for enough stamina for breaking free and a bit of blocking and dodging. I'm not saying you can't do well on magica builds, but stamina has quite some advantage through mechanics and itemization.

wheem_ESO

Bergzorn wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

"Elder Stamina Online". Wasn't too long ago it was referred to as Elder Staves Online.

When was that, around One Tamriel? That's quite a while ago for a game. And even back then it was mostly because of the destro staff ultimate, which got grossly overbuffed from PTS to live.

I meant to respond to that, too, since the game has been Elder Stamina Online for like 4 years now. There are some patches here and there where certain Magicka classes have been really strong (and maybe they're "meta" for zerging or something), but Stamina has been really dominant in BGs and smaller scale fights for a very long time.

Also forgot to add that Crystal Weapon for Stam Sorc is certainly not a "bad" spammable, at least not with the right build. I've seen a few different people land hits with it that were in the 5-6k range in BGs, which is far superior to any Magicka spammable besides Whip or Sweeps on full-offense stat builds.

Nord_Raseri

Bergzorn wrote: »

Nord_Raseri wrote: »

"Elder Stamina Online". Wasn't too long ago it was referred to as Elder Staves Online.

When was that, around One Tamriel?

Since 2015/16 to 2018(Beginning, at least) most people I knew referred to this game as Elder staves online. Just saying. The metas, both pve and pvp, ebb and flow. That's how it is. At some point, probably due to proc sets, and the consequent whining all over the forums, stam will be nerfed and magicka will once again reign supreme. Until it's flipped yet again. Welcome to ESO, where they like to randomly tip the scales on anything and everything.

Firstmep

wheem_ESO wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Doczy wrote: »

why %80 of pvp is stamina characters with tanky proc sets with dizzy /dawnbreaker/exec have you ever thought about it?

They use those abilities because they don't have anything to use in their class kits. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Unless of course you're suggesting every class should be completely overhauled to offer viable stamina morphs of all abilities?

This is always the argument, but it's not 100% honest. If every Stamina build had access to a class-based spammable that was balanced vs magicka spammables, they'd simply scoff and keep using Dizzying Swing. There's always a lot of complaining about how hard it supposedly is to land Dizzying Swing, and how having ranged abilities is super duper important. Yet, virtually every Stamina Warden and Stamina Necromancer toss their ranged, instant cast, class-based spammables in the garbage use Dizzying Swing instead.

A lot of the people who say that alternative Stamina-based spammables are bad seemingly fail to realize that it's because those other spammables are balanced against Magicka abilities. It's actually Dizzying Swing that's the outlier, and Stamina builds absolutely 100% do not need access to other spammables that are comparable to it unless most Magicka spammables get some significant buffs.

Venom skull and cutting dive are both pure grade trash compared to dizzy, since their ranged they do less dmg snd have long travel times, so they aren't really instant.
Poop rock doesn't have the travel time issue, but it's still weak dmg wise, and requires a cast time just to activate.
Crystal weapon is better used as a delayed burst skill, than a spammable.
Honestly other suprise attack and jabs, all other Stam class spammables are bad.
Then you have dizzy, and master dw enchanched rending as actual viable options. Dizzy gives you off balance and opens up a potential stun, hits hard and fits on well with things like sub assault Blastbones.
So there isn't really a choice here to make, sadly.

Necro needs it's scythe to be single target melee(tanks use Tha mag morph anyway), DK needs poison whip, crystal WEP needs to be an actual spammable, and then we might start seeing people taper off from dizzy.

WreckfulAbandon

Firstmep wrote: »

Necro needs it's scythe to be single target melee(tanks use Tha mag morph anyway), DK needs poison whip, crystal WEP needs to be an actual spammable, and then we might start seeing people taper off from dizzy.

wheem_ESO

Firstmep wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

JayKwellen wrote: »

Doczy wrote: »

why %80 of pvp is stamina characters with tanky proc sets with dizzy /dawnbreaker/exec have you ever thought about it?

They use those abilities because they don't have anything to use in their class kits. I don't understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Unless of course you're suggesting every class should be completely overhauled to offer viable stamina morphs of all abilities?

This is always the argument, but it's not 100% honest. If every Stamina build had access to a class-based spammable that was balanced vs magicka spammables, they'd simply scoff and keep using Dizzying Swing. There's always a lot of complaining about how hard it supposedly is to land Dizzying Swing, and how having ranged abilities is super duper important. Yet, virtually every Stamina Warden and Stamina Necromancer toss their ranged, instant cast, class-based spammables in the garbage use Dizzying Swing instead.

A lot of the people who say that alternative Stamina-based spammables are bad seemingly fail to realize that it's because those other spammables are balanced against Magicka abilities. It's actually Dizzying Swing that's the outlier, and Stamina builds absolutely 100% do not need access to other spammables that are comparable to it unless most Magicka spammables get some significant buffs.

Venom skull and cutting dive are both pure grade trash compared to dizzy, since their ranged they do less dmg snd have long travel times, so they aren't really instant.
Poop rock doesn't have the travel time issue, but it's still weak dmg wise, and requires a cast time just to activate.
Crystal weapon is better used as a delayed burst skill, than a spammable.
Honestly other suprise attack and jabs, all other Stam class spammables are bad.
Then you have dizzy, and master dw enchanched rending as actual viable options. Dizzy gives you off balance and opens up a potential stun, hits hard and fits on well with things like sub assault Blastbones.
So there isn't really a choice here to make, sadly.

Necro needs it's scythe to be single target melee(tanks use Tha mag morph anyway), DK needs poison whip, crystal WEP needs to be an actual spammable, and then we might start seeing people taper off from dizzy.

As I said, those stamina spammables are bad because they're comparable to magicka spammables, with Dizzying Swing being very much overpowered in comparison...despite the fact that it's allegedly difficult to land and requires melee range. How can one seriously argue that stamina builds deserve more spammables that are comparable to Dizzying Swing while magicka gets left with a big pile of hot garbage? And giving Stamina Necromancer a single target morph of the Scythe that's balanced against Dizzying Swing would make the gap between the two halves of the class even larger than it already is.

I'll say it again - Dizzying Swing is the real outlier here (along with Biting Jabs, and potentially Whip if the proc meta ever ends). Either it needs to be taken down a notch, or lots of other stuff - Magicka included - needs to be buffed. The problem with option 2 is that it could potentially mess with time-to-kill and/or PvE balance. Regardless, the off-GCD stun attached to Dizzying Swing needs to go the way of the Dodo.

L_Nici

Your example is not very fitting, you can pull off the same with Magicka, just use the right Items and skills Race against time for example one of the strongest skills in game and surprise magicka.

Also Stamina can win 1v1 against Magicka, but as soon as your enemy is a magicka group a Stamina group will fall, just because magicka can Crossheal like crazy, there is a reason most ballgroups are full Magicka with Destroult, Detonation and Rapid Regen spam, Stamina can't even imagine dealing that much damage and healing at the same time.

TequilaFire

Yes I fully agree, nerf all things that kill my poor underpowered sorc. /sarcasm

NeillMcAttack

I do agree that mag needs a buff, stam just feels more effective at getting kills. I don’t think it’s a matter of skills available though, it’s more the fact that stam builds do better in heavy armor whereby mag lose much more going heavy over light. Stam self healing is very strong and reaching resistance cap is much easier in medium compared to light also, shields are supposed to be what balances this, but shields feel so insanely week, especially in no-cp PvP.

In large ballsgroups though it’s much stronger to have the majority being Mag toons though due to the utility they can bring to the group and the amount of buffs they can apply compared to their stam counterparts.

I also believe that the viability of high health builds, paired with max health scaling heals, being much stronger on a stam build is the main cause of this imbalance. Health scaling heals need to go IMO.

fred4

In the case of Stone Giant, I think everyone's preference for Dizzying may be down to pure snobbery. I use the former. People tend to go with the experienced players or YouTubers they respect, but those are not immune to herd mentality. I think there is probably a tendency to judge skills based on controlled environments, e.g. duelling, as well as on razor-thin margins. It's the same in PvE. Lots of stuff is viable, but if something outperforms by just an iota (on average), then it becomes meta. What really baffles me among friends who I otherwise like and respect is when they share that herd mentality. The one that says stam DK is a melee class and completely disregards the ranged utility of Stone Giant in open world. One that accepts DK as being slow in the sense that you can only let the fight come to you. If I'm fighting a streaking sorc, constantly dodge rolling to avoid being nuked by Overload and delayed burst, it helps when I can pressure them with my ranged spammable, so they have less of a free reign on me. Could I bait them, purely by using LoS? Sure, if they choose to come to me. People underestimate Stone Giant.

TheBonesXXX

Minimal Input, Maximum output is what people will always gravitate to OP. No one will play a difficult and fun build to play if you can play an easier one and yield the same results.

fred4

Sergykid wrote: »

stam survivability is superior to magicka because roll dodging a lot. Mag players hardly have undodgeable attacks. Maybe a solution would instead be increasing the fatigue cost exponentially. First roll dodge 2k stam, next 4k stam, next 8k stam.

You have to dodge roll as a magicka player too from time to time, even twice in a row occasionally. You know who this is going to punish the most: Those who already struggle with dodge roll sustain, e.g. the magicka classes. The same happened with shields. Magsorc remains viable, but classes without shield-stacking have IMO suffered disproportionately from shield nerfs over the years.

SshadowSscale wrote: »

seriously if stamina dodge roll is that op why not just give magicka a dodge roll too?

This is highly dependent on the class. On magplar and for my playstyle dodge rolling actually is OP. Or rather, it's the thing I find currently viable. Templar is a class that has a very strong spammble when it connects, as well as a playstyle typically based around running down your health, then healing, rather than shielding or blocking. That means magplar played well as tanky builds in the past, using sets like Pirate Skeleton, Armor Master or Cyrodiil's Light. Templar could afford this, because they evolved to where their damage is very strong, possibly in response to the average player having to build tanky. For this patch I switched to Eternal Vigor plus Amber Plasm. You sacrifice damage, much as you would by building tanky, but nothing beats it for playability and survivability in my view. Light armor of course. Resistances don't matter. Heavy armor is bad. Malacath is just bad on the class, at least on a stat-build in CP. Wild Hunt plus stam sustain is where it's at for me.

If you gave magicka classes the option to dodge and/or break free using magicka, things would surely go awry. That would be too much. Take magsorc. That class IMO is completely viable with a minimum of stam sustain, due to shield-stacking and Bolt Escape. The latter, especially, is a disgustingly strong skill, but then again it is IMO the only magicka skill that truly matches the playability, speed and responsiveness of dodge rolling. It is a good skill. I'm not calling for a nerf here. I also think nightblades are a special case, due to Shadow Image, but the discipline, foresight and experience needed to use that skill makes it much harder to play. Indeed, if you want to play a nightblade without Shadow Image, then dodge roll sustain or some other escape mechanic, like back-barring Meridia's Blessed Armor, is very much needed. At least if you frequently play in melee range on magblade, as I do.

I keep thinking that the game was historically balanced around magicka classes having access to decent shields, where stamina classes dodge rolled. However this has started to break down. One reason is magsorc. That class is the outlier, which has remained strong and which shield changes have been balanced around. This has been to the detriment of other classes who use(d) shields and who could neither shield-stack nor had access to a mobility skill as fantastic as Streak. I think giving every magicka class dodge roll sustain would do nothing to change that imbalance.

I'm just musing here. I'm not pushing for any change, because I only play about half the classes in the game. I haven't even touched Vampire, because I haven't played it much, yet Mist Form is also relevant to this discussion.

Stamina classes are more homogenous. I think it would be a mistake to introduce magicka dodge rolls. I think magicka classes should retain their greater variety and that includes how to make / keep their mobility options competitive.

What I would actually come back to is reviewing how ZOS' recent bean-counter approach to skill redesign has destroyed previously viable playstyles. For example they removed Major Expedition from all but Path on magblade. Crippling Grasp was a much stronger kiting tool in the past. Who still uses it now? There are certain buff combinations that are viable for PvP. When it comes to movement, then essentially Race Against Time is strong, but can't match dodge rolling, Bolt Escape is strong(er), Mist Form is still viable to my knowledge, Shadow Image is strong but hard to use and everything else sucks. Did I forget something?

In order to differentiate skills - especially on the new classes - ZOS have resorted to putting different combinations of major and minor buffs on them, then seeing what sticks. The problem is, not a lot of that is actually useable. You have to fine-tune those skills with a class's playstyles in mind. There was no way Crippling Grasp was ever OP in my opinion. It was merely made for a particular magblade playstyle, rather than by bean-counting. Unfortunately ZOS drive for standardisation considered the skill overloaded. This is where IMO part of the problem is. You can't just standardise everything via a spreadsheet. One can only hope that the major combat revisions are over and they are going to start refining skills again.

KhajiitLivesMatter

Doczy wrote: »

Hello people. If you think current pvp meta and style is very good please leave this discussion.

Let's start with example.

You are at Cyrodil with 10 person group. and one of opposite faction player ( yea stamxxxx whatever) stealing your elder scroll. and starts to running its own base.

You and your group chasing him with mount and with gallop of course . And you caught him. starting to attack with cc dots . Someone landed cc to him and stunned. Breaks free rolling rolling using defensive skills with S&B of course and running faster than your mount.

After a while his friend came to help him( Stamxxx of course ) and you caught them near of a big rock. and they switched bar for S&B you tried everything to kill them. Dots CC's Snares LA HA skills. and you just realized your abilities or LA HA attacks are not landing on them with no reason. Just sometimes it says dodged. And a miracle happened. you hit him with cc and damaged his half HP. And he rolled healed till full HP. And of course you know they are running faster than mount your mana and stamina bars empty now. They switch bar and returns with dawnbreaker or colossus . And you died.

So they lived happily forever.

I know more than %70 of cyrodil players hate this situations and wants justice. No one talks about nerf stamina or buff magicka. Performance , delays, lags, bugs another thing. So why devs still not answering our demands? There is just one answer for this. Devs love S&B unkillable tanks in pvp. And loves infinity rolls and OP heals.


Dear devs please open your ears eyes and brain. PVE and PVP are different things. You need to adjust your skills and stats. Someone can say you can only damage %50 in pvp its right. But what about survive ? Out of PVP you can damage 10k for example and heal 10k. In PVP you can damage 5k but healing still 10k. And its going insane with more heavy armor and S&B.
And with infinite stamina pools with well fit trait you can roll to eternity.


There is solutions:


* If you are in S&B and heavy armor your stamina recovery drops more .Cuz you are heavy tank capish?
*
* There must be 3 seconds cooldown between rolls with 5 seconds debuff. And double cost for Stamina.
*
* Healing is Magicka thing. Because its magical you know ? Cancel all heal abilities for Stamina and bring damage shield if you are under %35 health with 7 seconds cooldown.
*
* And please just please decrease that running speed for medium armor users. They can run faster than mount.
*
* And last make CC's worthy. There is no logic for use cc in this game for PVP. Make double resource cost of break free for Stamina.

than we need to be fair to ....

* If you are in S&B and heavy armor your stamina AND magicka recovery drops more .Cuz you are heavy tank capish?

* There must be 3 seconds cooldown between rolls and SHILDS with 5 seconds debuff. And double cost for Stamina and Magicka .

* Role Dodge / Sprint / Interupt / Block is Stamina thing. Because its stamina you know ? Cancel all Role Dodge / Sprint / Interupt / Block abilities for Magicka.

* And please just please decrease that running speed for light armor users. cause sprinting is stam stuff.


* And last make CC's worthy. There is no logic for use cc in this game for PVP. Make double resource cost of break free for Stamina and add a equal magicka cost to it based on max stats.[/quote]

KhajiitLivesMatter

DeHei wrote: »

The real problem, dizzy swing is hitting too hard + CC... I havent seen just 1 staminabuild without that skill in PvP.. nerfing it would allready make sense, because this skill isnt used in PvE!
The high health tanks just work well cause of high health regen, health based heals and the damage output with a combination of just 2H skills...
In this case i dont see proccsets as the problem...

stam blade never uses it
and maybe 40% (atleast) of the rest doesnt use it either

KhajiitLivesMatter

and i dont know what u play in pvp and so on...
but me personaly i play a stam nb as main since years
but recently i tryed a mag dk and it is like 30x easier - tankier and can do same if not even more dmg than a stam blade so dont know to much about other mags but if it is like that to than mag defenetly doesnt need a buff

(and if u nerf stamina atleast dont nerf blades they are already just "ok" nerf=dead)

fred4

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Regardless, the off-GCD stun attached to Dizzying Swing needs to go the way of the Dodo.

To those of us who don't know, can you explain how the off-GCD nature of the Dizzying stun manifests itself?

wheem_ESO

fred4 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Regardless, the off-GCD stun attached to Dizzying Swing needs to go the way of the Dodo.

To those of us who don't know, can you explain how the off-GCD nature of the Dizzying stun manifests itself?

Dizzying Swing causes off balance on the target, which will trigger a stun on any heavy attack (including split-second medium attacks). This allows the user to stun a target during a burst attempt, without having to actually lower their damage for a "regular" CC. It also means that the target doesn't get a 1-second window to react after the stun is triggered; having an off-GCD stun ensures that you can immediately drop a Dawnbreaker when the light-attack-that's-really-a-heavy-attack connects.