Real Problem of Pvp in Cyrodil - Elder Stamina Online

Doczy

Hello people. If you think current pvp meta and style is very good please leave this discussion.

Let's start with example.

You are at Cyrodil with 10 person group. and one of opposite faction player ( yea stamxxxx whatever) stealing your elder scroll. and starts to running its own base.

You and your group chasing him with mount and with gallop of course . And you caught him. starting to attack with cc dots . Someone landed cc to him and stunned. Breaks free rolling rolling using defensive skills with S&B of course and running faster than your mount.

After a while his friend came to help him( Stamxxx of course ) and you caught them near of a big rock. and they switched bar for S&B you tried everything to kill them. Dots CC's Snares LA HA skills. and you just realized your abilities or LA HA attacks are not landing on them with no reason. Just sometimes it says dodged. And a miracle happened. you hit him with cc and damaged his half HP. And he rolled healed till full HP. And of course you know they are running faster than mount your mana and stamina bars empty now. They switch bar and returns with dawnbreaker or colossus . And you died.

So they lived happily forever.

I know more than %70 of cyrodil players hate this situations and wants justice. No one talks about nerf stamina or buff magicka. Performance , delays, lags, bugs another thing. So why devs still not answering our demands? There is just one answer for this. Devs love S&B unkillable tanks in pvp. And loves infinity rolls and OP heals.


Dear devs please open your ears eyes and brain. PVE and PVP are different things. You need to adjust your skills and stats. Someone can say you can only damage %50 in pvp its right. But what about survive ? Out of PVP you can damage 10k for example and heal 10k. In PVP you can damage 5k but healing still 10k. And its going insane with more heavy armor and S&B.
And with infinite stamina pools with well fit trait you can roll to eternity.


There is solutions:


* If you are in S&B and heavy armor your stamina recovery drops more .Cuz you are heavy tank capish?
*
* There must be 3 seconds cooldown between rolls with 5 seconds debuff. And double cost for Stamina.
*
* Healing is Magicka thing. Because its magical you know ? Cancel all heal abilities for Stamina and bring damage shield if you are under %35 health with 7 seconds cooldown.
*
* And please just please decrease that running speed for medium armor users. They can run faster than mount.
*
* And last make CC's worthy. There is no logic for use cc in this game for PVP. Make double resource cost of break free for Stamina.

Crash427

I've run scrolls on my mag toon before. Ring of the Wild hunt + race against time and sometimes even steed mundus. The playing field is as level as it's probably ever been if you want speed these days.

And a speed capped runner is still slower than a max speed mount.

Doczy

Crash427 wrote: »

I've run scrolls on my mag toon before. Ring of the Wild hunt + race against time and sometimes even steed mundus. The playing field is as level as it's probably ever been if you want speed these days.

And a speed capped runner is still slower than a max speed mount.

what about other things?

WreckfulAbandon

Firstmep

Most heavy armor users already don't run high recovery.
Constitution, sustain skill and heavy attacks are what sustains them.
Medium armor gives a slight movespeed bonus while sprinting, movespeed is capped at 200% for everyone medium armor is not an exception.
My mag nb in cloak can reach ms cap no sprint or medium armor.
LOL for no healing for Stam.

Ariades_swe

Lol all ballgroups are mainly mag stacking these days.

Stam are good for solo and small scale pvp but anything above a 5 man group is better of stacking magicka builds

Magsorc is arguably the best open world soloclass too.

Wolfpaw

Healing gain through weapon damage should be removed. Stamina players already have perks in combat such as block, dodge, bash, break free, & sprint

DeHei

Stamina is still king in PvP, but was allready since BETA in most cases!

Yes, there are issues because its strong, but no reason to nerf it to ground.
There must be other options, like buffing dodgeroll for magickaclasses too or something.

Firstmep

DeHei wrote: »

Stamina is still king in PvP, but was allready since BETA in most cases!

Yes, there are issues because its strong, but no reason to nerf it to ground.
There must be other options, like buffing dodgeroll for magickaclasses too or something.

Stamina specs didn't exist in beta.

SshadowSscale

DeHei wrote: »

Stamina is still king in PvP, but was allready since BETA in most cases!

Yes, there are issues because its strong, but no reason to nerf it to ground.
There must be other options, like buffing dodgeroll for magickaclasses too or something.

lmao stamina is truly op if they can dominate magicka players without existing

Doczy wrote: »

Hello people. If you think current pvp meta and style is very good please leave this discussion.

Let's start with example.

You are at Cyrodil with 10 person group. and one of opposite faction player ( yea stamxxxx whatever) stealing your elder scroll. and starts to running its own base.

You and your group chasing him with mount and with gallop of course . And you caught him. starting to attack with cc dots . Someone landed cc to him and stunned. Breaks free rolling rolling using defensive skills with S&B of course and running faster than your mount.

After a while his friend came to help him( Stamxxx of course ) and you caught them near of a big rock. and they switched bar for S&B you tried everything to kill them. Dots CC's Snares LA HA skills. and you just realized your abilities or LA HA attacks are not landing on them with no reason. Just sometimes it says dodged. And a miracle happened. you hit him with cc and damaged his half HP. And he rolled healed till full HP. And of course you know they are running faster than mount your mana and stamina bars empty now. They switch bar and returns with dawnbreaker or colossus . And you died.

So they lived happily forever.

I know more than %70 of cyrodil players hate this situations and wants justice. No one talks about nerf stamina or buff magicka. Performance , delays, lags, bugs another thing. So why devs still not answering our demands? There is just one answer for this. Devs love S&B unkillable tanks in pvp. And loves infinity rolls and OP heals.


Dear devs please open your ears eyes and brain. PVE and PVP are different things. You need to adjust your skills and stats. Someone can say you can only damage %50 in pvp its right. But what about survive ? Out of PVP you can damage 10k for example and heal 10k. In PVP you can damage 5k but healing still 10k. And its going insane with more heavy armor and S&B.
And with infinite stamina pools with well fit trait you can roll to eternity.


There is solutions:


* If you are in S&B and heavy armor your stamina recovery drops more .Cuz you are heavy tank capish?
*
* There must be 3 seconds cooldown between rolls with 5 seconds debuff. And double cost for Stamina.
*
* Healing is Magicka thing. Because its magical you know ? Cancel all heal abilities for Stamina and bring damage shield if you are under %35 health with 7 seconds cooldown.
*
* And please just please decrease that running speed for medium armor users. They can run faster than mount.
*
* And last make CC's worthy. There is no logic for use cc in this game for PVP. Make double resource cost of break free for Stamina.

And yes in pvp stamina is stronger than mag atm but the tanky stam builds you are running into this meta is not because heavy armor sword and board.... it's because of proc sets combined with malacath allowing you to hit hard while also allowing you to put all attributes into health and using health enchants etc.... cp system also lends a lot to being tanky and if you play both cp and no cp pvp you will feel the difference in tankyness quickly. Sets like eternal vigor allows you to be tanky while having high recovery but most people would rather use crimson for the aoe damage it deals and then it heals you for all the damage that it deals.... in anycase healing is not a problem and has been nerfed really hard already.... asking for another nerf to healing is not? going to end well and most of these op tanks are not relying on weapon/spell damage scalling heals but instead they are ussing health scaling heals meaning the more health they have the stronger the heal
I agree that stam is stronger than mag but most of your issues you are having this patch is coming from proc sets and the fact that stamina proc sets are stronger than magicka proc sets.... Also you seem to be confused a bit since you want to nerf both heavy and medium.... nerfing heavy will also nerf magicka builds since not all magicka builds go all light armor... secondly instead of deleting stamina heals and at the same time making dodge usseless (wich will kill stamina but I am guessing you are ok with that wich means you are not seeking balance ) let's give magicka a magicka based dodge roll and cc break via a passive in a skill line so that magicka players can decide if they want to keep stam as dodge and break resource or instead use their magicka.... this is a much better option and will buff magicka without having to nerf stamina.... I for one am sick of nerfs at this point and would rather want to see some buffs... and before you say something like oh you are just another stam player who wants to keep stam op.... I am not.... I barely even play stamina nowadays and my 2 main pvp chars are magicka nb and magicka necromancer.

UppGRAYxDD

I-Frames>>>>>>>everything...

WacArnold

It may just be me. But i wonder if executioner is not a huge root in stam being so successful in pvp.

90% of the pop is tanky as can be. Mag sorc is the only mag class with a execution skill that even comes close to stams executioner. With block cast heals, dodge rolls and players with high burst heal, its not hard to get out of 25% execution range faster than you can land a execute skill like impale. If your playing stam and using executioner your chilping down your opponent everytime you hit them with an executioner untill they die or manage to survive.

Now ofc executioner is not a guaranteed kill but it most certainty does work. Without this skill two meta stam characters with the same skill level would battle forever.

Classes without access to good execution skill like mag warden do fairly well but have alot of trouble finishing the job. A powerful 50% scalling execute is tipping the scales imo.

I really think if mag classes had an skill like executioner available via destro staff skill line this would balance stam and mag a little better allowing mag to better punish opponents when they fail to defend against a combo.

However, i think it should be a closer range execute. Same as stam, if you made it ranged it would probably be op. What balances out mag is the 25% scaling. But since it can be loaded once they hit 25 it auto explodes so thats very skill dependent using a proper combo to load up the execute before you get them to 25%.

Kartalin

WacArnold wrote: »

I really think if mag classes had an skill like executioner available via destro staff skill line this would balance stam and mag a little better allowing mag to better punish opponents when they fail to defend against a combo.

I thought for a second they gave us just that with flame pulsar, but then it turns out it only applies to the burning proc so it’s absolute garbage.

fred4

@Doczy, I agree that stamina is stronger than magicka in PvP. Magsorc still seems decent to me and magblade is it's own thing. Both are exempt from stamina issues to a degree. Duelling with my magplar recently brought it home how much better stamina is for PvP in general, specifically stamina sustain. Building for that beat building tanky by a mile, although this may have something to do with my playstyle.

Ironically we are here, partially, because people complained about unkillable magsorcs in the past. I never really played that class other than dabbling, but using shields on other classes has IMO been noticeably nerfed over the years. This has pushed dodge rolling and blocking further into the foreground.

As to your specific scenario, yeah that happens. It happens to me occasionally when I'm with players I know to be decent and we're zerging down a 1vXer. You can try it yourself, though. LoS is a very powerful tool. That said, I will still lay failure of the group to kill that guy at your zerg's feet. You may be a good player, but many players don't know how to burst or buff or defend properly. An unorganised zerg is surprisingly ineffective. The way out of that is IMO improving your own gameplay or to play in an organised group on Discord. Such groups can be deadly even when the individual members are not.

DeHei

Firstmep wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Stamina is still king in PvP, but was allready since BETA in most cases!

Yes, there are issues because its strong, but no reason to nerf it to ground.
There must be other options, like buffing dodgeroll for magickaclasses too or something.

Stamina specs didn't exist in beta.

haha true that. I really forget, that there was another time 😅 my fault

Cirantille

You lost me at delet stamina heals

wheem_ESO

Removing Stamina builds' ability to heal themselves would obviously be a terrible idea for overall game balance, but dodge spam has been needing to be addressed for years now. There are multiple reasons that Stamina has been overall superior to Magicka - at least outside of zerging - for so long, but dodge spam is a big part of it. Even as a full Magicka build, your best defenses are almost always dodge and block, you just can't do it nearly as much as Stamina can.

Stahlor

The real problem is tanky, high health characters still dealing insane damage. You should get rewarded for low health and low resistance. This could be fixed by lowering damage output depending on max health e.g. starting at 20k health, every additional 500 health reduces your damage by 1%. Health depending heals problem would be fixed like that, too.

fred4

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Removing Stamina builds' ability to heal themselves would obviously be a terrible idea for overall game balance, but dodge spam has been needing to be addressed for years now. There are multiple reasons that Stamina has been overall superior to Magicka - at least outside of zerging - for so long, but dodge spam is a big part of it. Even as a full Magicka build, your best defenses are almost always dodge and block, you just can't do it nearly as much as Stamina can.

I agree with your observation, but I'm not sure where this leads. I think the original answer to dodge spam are shields. There used to be a time when people complained about shields being OP. Now not so much. There also used to be a time, more recently, when people complained about "the tank meta". I think this has actually passed as well. It has certainly passed in so far as heavy armor is involved. I'm not sure that meta was ever so much about tankiness as it was, at the very least, about tankiness and healing. A friend felt his DKs 1vX capability severely nerfed when the healing debuff became 60%. At 55% I'm not sure. I feel it in my magplar that heals are better again, but I also feel that class is defensively best with Eternal Vigor + Amber Plasm + Stamina Rune + Wild Hunt as opposed to a tankier, but less mobile setup. I actually think we are currently in a speed meta. That's why medium armor and dodge rolls are strong.

The traditional answer for slow mag classes, the ones other than sorc and NB, has been Mist Form. As a largely non-vamp player, this is not something I have a explored. Having such a crucial (to some classes) PvP skill locked behind vamp has always been a problem for me personally, as I have remnants of a role-player in me. The, possibly lesser, alternative is Race Against Time. Slotting that skill almost goes without saying on anything but sorc. The combination of speed and snare removal is IMO unbeatable, compared to other skills that offer one or the other, but not both. This is not a nerf call. The skill is widely used, because it is badly needed, namely because a dodge roll - the tool of stam classes - operates outside the GCD and can be combined with anything, notably speed by just using a bow. That GCD, that second saved, which a stamina character does not have to spend on RAT in order to reposition or break a root, ties in my mind with dodge rolls negating damage. It's the second reason dodge rolls are strong. If you get caught in a necro ult, you dodge roll. You don't cast RAT. As a non-Mist user, the only skill that can compete for ease of use and effectiveness is IMO Bolt Escape.

I am not sure how ZOS can win here. Light armor had it's day. So did heavy. Now it's medium armor's turn to shine. Isn't this what people wanted? Are people complaining because the game is truly unbalanced or because medium playstyles are the new toy and that's fresh on their mind? With Swift at 7% plus Wild Hunt we're IMO back in a speed meta, but I haven't seen the same outcry that led to speed nerfs after Summerset. Perhaps it's because medium armor is favored, which makes it easier to keep up, even without Wild Hunt.

Stahlor wrote: »

The real problem is tanky, high health characters still dealing insane damage. You should get rewarded for low health and low resistance. This could be fixed by lowering damage output depending on max health e.g. starting at 20k health, every additional 500 health reduces your damage by 1%. Health depending heals problem would be fixed like that, too.

I'd be interested in hearing other people's take on this idea. Turning a big lever has been one of ZOS' favorite things to do, rather than limiting themselves to tuning sets and class skills. I disagree with it as a matter of principle. I would be more in favor of the hard work of identifying exactly what overperforms in what situations and making surgical changes.

You're also at odds with wheem and myself. At the end of the day a strong player is a strong player. What we perceive as tanky is really a combination of tankiness, healing, movement and experience. IMO movement is king and tankiness has already taken some substantial nerfs. You want everyone to become a nightblade without giving them the nightblade's escape tools? Careful what you wish for. NBs will have a field day. Classes that are slower and don't specialise in escape need to be tankier just to compensate for their lack of nimbleness. With all the nerfs to armor that involves high health these days. It's a relatively "dumb" thing, but what else is there? Those classes also still need to do decent damage, otherwise they couldn't kill each other.

Stahlor

Nerfing heals would again affect PVE massively and also not that tanky pvp characters. Reducing damage depending on max health would solve that problem. Squishy pvp characters would still do massive damage and characters without "escape tools" could still be tanky. However they wouldn't be an almost unkillable 40k health character anymore, that can still kill almost everyone with a 3-skill combo.

DeHei

The real problem, dizzy swing is hitting too hard + CC... I havent seen just 1 staminabuild without that skill in PvP.. nerfing it would allready make sense, because this skill isnt used in PvE!
The high health tanks just work well cause of high health regen, health based heals and the damage output with a combination of just 2H skills...
In this case i dont see proccsets as the problem...

Firstmep

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Removing Stamina builds' ability to heal themselves would obviously be a terrible idea for overall game balance, but dodge spam has been needing to be addressed for years now. There are multiple reasons that Stamina has been overall superior to Magicka - at least outside of zerging - for so long, but dodge spam is a big part of it. Even as a full Magicka build, your best defenses are almost always dodge and block, you just can't do it nearly as much as Stamina can.

Yeah I still don't understand why well fitted needed a buff.
And with impen nerfs, most ppl run well fitted now instead even in heavy armor.

Dorkener

Bring back old vamp drain

But yeah, post well fitted buff + 40% recovery pot buff, fighting well built/played stamblades in CP is absolutely futile. (Unburstable if 28k+ HP, avoiding damage via dodge-roll/cloak/shade without running out of resources... in 3 dmg sets, so good luck if you slip up, deleted in 3 secs )

fred4

Firstmep wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Removing Stamina builds' ability to heal themselves would obviously be a terrible idea for overall game balance, but dodge spam has been needing to be addressed for years now. There are multiple reasons that Stamina has been overall superior to Magicka - at least outside of zerging - for so long, but dodge spam is a big part of it. Even as a full Magicka build, your best defenses are almost always dodge and block, you just can't do it nearly as much as Stamina can.

Yeah I still don't understand why well fitted needed a buff.

I can answer that one: It didn't enable a dodge spamming build as much as stamina cost reduction runes did. The real killer, as far as dodge rolling, was a build with 8 Well-Fitted (including shield) and 3x Infused stamina cost reduction enchants. You could dodge 50 times+, because the cost was near zero and an escalating cost of near zero was still near zero. This type of build has been nerfed. Cost reduction enchants no longer reduce dodge roll cost. Perhaps Well-Fitted improves the average build, but I'm not sure. I still wear half-Impen so that feels like very little difference.

ManDraKE

This is the biggest L2P i've seen in quite some time in the forums.

One positive side-effect of ZoS completly ignoring players feedback, is that things like these also get ignored rolf.

Firstmep

fred4 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Removing Stamina builds' ability to heal themselves would obviously be a terrible idea for overall game balance, but dodge spam has been needing to be addressed for years now. There are multiple reasons that Stamina has been overall superior to Magicka - at least outside of zerging - for so long, but dodge spam is a big part of it. Even as a full Magicka build, your best defenses are almost always dodge and block, you just can't do it nearly as much as Stamina can.

Yeah I still don't understand why well fitted needed a buff.

I can answer that one: It didn't enable a dodge spamming build as much as stamina cost reduction runes did. The real killer, as far as dodge rolling, was a build with 8 Well-Fitted (including shield) and 3x Infused stamina cost reduction enchants. You could dodge 50 times+, because the cost was near zero and an escalating cost of near zero was still near zero. This type of build has been nerfed. Cost reduction enchants no longer reduce dodge roll cost. Perhaps Well-Fitted improves the average build, but I'm not sure. I still wear half-Impen so that feels like very little difference.

Yeah but those builds were an issue before procs became this bad.

Tbh, I don't find dodge spamming builds that problematic myself, plenty of hard hitting aoe skills, dots etc put there to counter them.
But I can see how frustrating it can be for single target focused builds with very little aoe(magnb comes to mind).

fred4

Firstmep wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Removing Stamina builds' ability to heal themselves would obviously be a terrible idea for overall game balance, but dodge spam has been needing to be addressed for years now. There are multiple reasons that Stamina has been overall superior to Magicka - at least outside of zerging - for so long, but dodge spam is a big part of it. Even as a full Magicka build, your best defenses are almost always dodge and block, you just can't do it nearly as much as Stamina can.

Yeah I still don't understand why well fitted needed a buff.

I can answer that one: It didn't enable a dodge spamming build as much as stamina cost reduction runes did. The real killer, as far as dodge rolling, was a build with 8 Well-Fitted (including shield) and 3x Infused stamina cost reduction enchants. You could dodge 50 times+, because the cost was near zero and an escalating cost of near zero was still near zero. This type of build has been nerfed. Cost reduction enchants no longer reduce dodge roll cost. Perhaps Well-Fitted improves the average build, but I'm not sure. I still wear half-Impen so that feels like very little difference.

Yeah but those builds were an issue before procs became this bad.

Tbh, I don't find dodge spamming builds that problematic myself, plenty of hard hitting aoe skills, dots etc put there to counter them.
But I can see how frustrating it can be for single target focused builds with very little aoe(magnb comes to mind).

Mag NB has changed! I play a single-target one, but to my annoyance bombers running Acuity + Vicious Death have become very strong to the point where the following happens:

Step 1: I gank said NB, because I can hear proxy det and I sniffed them out in their hiding place.

Step 2: The target hangs on to within an inch of it's life and I can't target it for execute, despite my detection potion.

Step 3: Tragedy strikes (for me) as they counter-attack, while still at 20% health themselves, with Soul Tether for 10K+ and a single Concealed for 6K+ or simply Sap Essence spam for 4K+ each plus light attacks, enchants, status effects and possibly the bomb they were working on.

I am not used to this. I am used to stamblades pulling off counter-attacks from the brink of death, but not magblades or at least not ones without a spectral bow. It betrays a confidence that magblade IMO did not have before. I feel within my rights to have a significant edge as a single-target build, but that is not so. I am currently wearing Blessed Armor on my back bar in open world, which allows me to stay on attack and get out at 20% health myself, by blocking. Unfortunately that does not work against these AOE-centric builds.

fred4

By the way, I realise there are some specific dynamics at play here. My use of Blessed makes me prone to run down my health and be vulnerable to AOE. Soul Tether is offensive, but also a heal. It is logical for a bomblade to use it defensively, but they can completely turn the tables too. Acuity proccing reliably + buffs to VD have made this build attractive. What's astonishing me is just how effective this build can be against single targets, at least squishy ones like me. Proxy Det was a staple of single-target magblades, once, and subsequently nerfed. It seems to be at least somewhat viable again. I see a few magblades running around and constantly using it outside of bomb ganks. Not saying this is good or bad, just something that has caught me off guard lately. I'm thinking of changing my own magblade.

Doczy

ManDraKE wrote: »

This is the biggest L2P i've seen in quite some time in the forums.

One positive side-effect of ZoS completly ignoring players feedback, is that things like these also get ignored rolf.

yeah just 20 full hp tanky proc with malacath guys knows this game. other people and especially magicka users are knows nothing.

that guys can heal themselves 10k 20k 50k instantly while doing infinite rolls . and they can almost one-shot a person with main bar.

why %80 of pvp is stamina characters with tanky proc sets with dizzy /dawnbreaker/exec have you ever thought about it?

Dunning_Kruger

Man this post is rich AF; I often wondered what it was like in the minds of the other side.

Kory

That situation you described.....That player was definitely not wearing Heavy armor. Medium armor. Also some really good 1vX solo players are good at "line of sighting", kiting, and just generally avoiding the full brunt of your zerg's damage. You can literally watch how good these players are on youtube.
You will also notice roll dodge is the biggest resource demand fighting your zerg as a stamina build, infinite roll dodge is not a thing. Players manage sustain in their own way.
I think you and your group just got finessed by a good player who's used to fighting groups.