Werewolf is the single most grossly over performing thing in PvP

Cathexis

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Remove Devour passive , ROFL , believe me , once ZOS do it , WW population huge drop for sure

WW aren't immortal , but it takes time and skills to kill them , you ok with it ?

So it takes time and skill to kill one but the opposite to play one, thank you for reinforcing my point

Idk what you are expecting from an ult that blocks both your base skill bars. Is the idea here it should be worse than your base skills or..?

Cathexis

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Yup, WW is for players who need a one bar tank that can put out top tier dps. Sad.

Try playing a non mag sorc rn see if you can deal enough damage with base weapon abilities to be competitive.

You can't.

Fawn4287

Cathexis wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Remove Devour passive , ROFL , believe me , once ZOS do it , WW population huge drop for sure

WW aren't immortal , but it takes time and skills to kill them , you ok with it ?

So it takes time and skill to kill one but the opposite to play one, thank you for reinforcing my point

Idk what you are expecting from an ult that blocks both your base skill bars. Is the idea here it should be worse than your base skills or..?

No, the idea is that an ult that has the strength of half a dozen 5 piece sets as its buffs shouldn’t last indefinitely or have the ability to last longer than 20 seconds

Fawn4287

Cathexis wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Yup, WW is for players who need a one bar tank that can put out top tier dps. Sad.

Try playing a non mag sorc rn see if you can deal enough damage with base weapon abilities to be competitive.

You can't.

You mean a stam sorc? Probably the strongest non nightblade stam class for 1vX of the last 2 updates with the strongest mobility, a reverse execute passive and now having the mag regen to spam streak as much as a magsorc.

LtAscott

My WW build seems bugged in PvP, I get *Literally* 1/10th the dmg, and my light attacks 90% of the time don't even register.
I rush in use my heal, use fear, claws of life while light attacking, and do 1k DPS and I've dead when the server and my client catch up to each other so... I think its fine as is and your running into someone/a scenario (maybe non-CP or Under 50 PvP?) where it seems more powerful than it actually is cause I run my build with 2 variations (a monster set change Molag Kena -> +DPS / Mighty Chudan -> +Surv) and I was disappointed with how hard I was getting *** on, although I am not min-maxing toward/for PvP purposes.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

There are a lot of things more broken then Werewolves. The combat system itself is pretty broken. I don't even think WWs make into the top 20 most broken things in ESO list.

Cathexis

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Yup, WW is for players who need a one bar tank that can put out top tier dps. Sad.

Try playing a non mag sorc rn see if you can deal enough damage with base weapon abilities to be competitive.

You can't.

You mean a stam sorc? Probably the strongest non nightblade stam class for 1vX of the last 2 updates with the strongest mobility, a reverse execute passive and now having the mag regen to spam streak as much as a magsorc.

Yeah and all you have to do to make it work is glass cannon at close range lol. It's better though, things are better I will say they are more practical in some regard. But realistically it doesn't matter how hard you cannon if the cannon breaks on the first shot.

Cathexis

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Remove Devour passive , ROFL , believe me , once ZOS do it , WW population huge drop for sure

WW aren't immortal , but it takes time and skills to kill them , you ok with it ?

So it takes time and skill to kill one but the opposite to play one, thank you for reinforcing my point

Idk what you are expecting from an ult that blocks both your base skill bars. Is the idea here it should be worse than your base skills or..?

No, the idea is that an ult that has the strength of half a dozen 5 piece sets as its buffs shouldn’t last indefinitely or have the ability to last longer than 20 seconds

Ok but the argument I would make is then it becomes impractical to use ww.

A 20s duration is way too short (also the reason why vamp form is junk in pvp, 20s is not long enough to use it for anything).

Really the problem with ww is that it fundamentally is an ult. So it has to be either too strong for it to be useful or not strong enough and never used. Making ww a high cost toggle (like say 350 ult) would make it a utility and then they could bring down damage to be more in line with other skills. That's the only way it's going to balance out correctly.

Qbiken

Cathexis wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

Remove Devour passive , ROFL , believe me , once ZOS do it , WW population huge drop for sure

WW aren't immortal , but it takes time and skills to kill them , you ok with it ?

So it takes time and skill to kill one but the opposite to play one, thank you for reinforcing my point

Idk what you are expecting from an ult that blocks both your base skill bars. Is the idea here it should be worse than your base skills or..?

No, the idea is that an ult that has the strength of half a dozen 5 piece sets as its buffs shouldn’t last indefinitely or have the ability to last longer than 20 seconds

Ok but the argument I would make is then it becomes impractical to use ww.

A 20s duration is way too short (also the reason why vamp form is junk in pvp, 20s is not long enough to use it for anything).

Really the problem with ww is that it fundamentally is an ult. So it has to be either too strong for it to be useful or not strong enough and never used. Making ww a high cost toggle (like say 350 ult) would make it a utility and then they could bring down damage to be more in line with other skills. That's the only way it's going to balance out correctly.

The duration/uptime of werewolf is not the issue. It was never designed with the same idea as other transformation ultimate's, and should therefore not be treated the same way.

The one and only change werewolf should get is to rework the scaling of the heal. Nerfing or reworking anything else without a buff to compensate will make the playstyle completely worthless. Make it scale of max stamina and weapon damage and you solve 95% of all issues with the current playstyle of werewolf.

Cathexis

@Qbiken fundamentally I agree about timers not being the issue, making them too short just makes ww useless.

Bullseyebudx

Fawn4287 wrote: »

It is absurd how ridiculously easy werewolf is to play and there isn’t a single person who doesn’t play one who won’t agree. They are beyond tanky, can achieve absurdly high levels of health recovery, they have an entire average builds toolkit and more on 1 bar with every ability having multiple effects, can play with upwards of 50k health whilst still maintaining solid damage output and can sprint almost as fast as a max speed mount. Its hard to believe with the feedback from the community they haven’t received a direct change to how they perform and at this point totally ruin the Imperial City. It is beyond me as to why such a strong transformation ultimate gets any form of duration extension, let alone from multiple sources and can be kept up indefinitely without putting any real thought in to doing so.


Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.

I've seen a lot of builds over the last 3 years of playing this game but this one really just takes the cake.
If I had to sit down and design a build to overperform in PvP content I'm not sure I could do better than the current werewolf, obviously with the help of Alessia.

A lot of these effects, like a stun on impact ability, gap closers, are specifically there for PvP, you don't need to stun and gap close the ads sorry.

Honestly this is probably the most disrespectful combat change I've ever seen.

You'll literally never be able to kill someone with almost 10K health recovery, nevermind the rest of the stats and slew of free major buffs, but the fact that they can kill people while obtaining the stats in the pic is actually unconscionable.

ZOS did you think doing this was okay for the health of your PvP community?

You couldn't even bring yourselves to give vampires any sort of functional abilities for PvP during this huge rework for the entire skill line, yet somehow werewolf's get what's actually the perfect PvP tool kit?

How did this happen?

How is one player supposed to kill a player with 10K health recovery, 46K res, two healing abilities mag and stam both over 15K tool tips one deals damage, fear on impact, a 12K tool tip with 25% damage increase for hitting a feared target, and free light and heavy attack bleeds?

I feel like a tank is going to feel pressure trying to sustain through all that free damage let alone a player running an offense based build.

Fawn4287

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

It is absurd how ridiculously easy werewolf is to play and there isn’t a single person who doesn’t play one who won’t agree. They are beyond tanky, can achieve absurdly high levels of health recovery, they have an entire average builds toolkit and more on 1 bar with every ability having multiple effects, can play with upwards of 50k health whilst still maintaining solid damage output and can sprint almost as fast as a max speed mount. Its hard to believe with the feedback from the community they haven’t received a direct change to how they perform and at this point totally ruin the Imperial City. It is beyond me as to why such a strong transformation ultimate gets any form of duration extension, let alone from multiple sources and can be kept up indefinitely without putting any real thought in to doing so.


Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.

I've seen a lot of builds over the last 3 years of playing this game but this one really just takes the cake.
If I had to sit down and design a build to overperform in PvP content I'm not sure I could do better than the current werewolf, obviously with the help of Alessia.

A lot of these effects, like a stun on impact ability, gap closers, are specifically there for PvP, you don't need to stun and gap close the ads sorry.

Honestly this is probably the most disrespectful combat change I've ever seen.

You'll literally never be able to kill someone with almost 10K health recovery, nevermind the rest of the stats and slew of free major buffs, but the fact that they can kill people while obtaining the stats in the pic is actually unconscionable.

ZOS did you think doing this was okay for the health of your PvP community?

You couldn't even bring yourselves to give vampires any sort of functional abilities for PvP during this huge rework for the entire skill line, yet somehow werewolf's get what's actually the perfect PvP tool kit?

How did this happen?

How is one player supposed to kill a player with 10K health recovery, 46K res, two healing abilities mag and stam both over 15K tool tips one deals damage, fear on impact, a 12K tool tip with 25% damage increase for hitting a feared target, and free light and heavy attack bleeds?

I feel like a tank is going to feel pressure trying to sustain through all that free damage let alone a player running an offense based build.

Disgusting stats sheet, no wonder non ult burst down players become borderline unkillable gods with more health recovery than most people have active incoming healing is insane. Its also funny that most stam builds don’t have the bar space for a proper CC, let alone a gap close yet a one bar werewolf build has both.

angelofdeath333

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

Selling impen and divines Alessian pieces on PCNA

Already made a fortune on alessian. Too bad i have to fight it later on...

WreckfulAbandon

I still don't know why they buffed Alessian from 1% to 2%

ccfeeling

I beg ZOS better add a hard reset WW timer , something like 3 - 4 mins .

There are so many many threads complain WW OP , healing is a problem but not the most big one , there are so many healing or sustain sources btw .

WW build in supernatural power , unlimited timer in certain condition , it's the problem .

Qbiken

ccfeeling wrote: »

I beg ZOS better add a hard reset WW timer , something like 3 - 4 mins .

There are so many many threads complain WW OP , healing is a problem but not the most big one , there are so many healing or sustain sources btw .

WW build in supernatural power , unlimited timer in certain condition , it's the problem .

While I'm not particularly interested in the PvE aspect of werewolf, I know for sure that there are many many players who is. And hard capping the timer for PvE would kill any reason to use one in PvE.

I really don't understand why people all of a sudden started to find the duration of werewolf to be an issue, when it really isn't.

If we exclude the fact that sets like alessian and eternal vigor is overloaded, the only aspect that need change with werewolf is the heal. And I've already repeated myself more than enough what needs to change with the heal, so please feel free to read my previous comment.

Adressing anything else about werewolf is the wrong approach. If people actually played werewolf in PvP they would understand why that's the case. But since the majority of people who complains doesn't (or they abuse it in low mmr battlegrounds when fighting less skilled players in PvE gear thinking it makes ww OP), it's understandable they can't see the obvious solution.

Fawn4287

Qbiken wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

I beg ZOS better add a hard reset WW timer , something like 3 - 4 mins .

There are so many many threads complain WW OP , healing is a problem but not the most big one , there are so many healing or sustain sources btw .

WW build in supernatural power , unlimited timer in certain condition , it's the problem .

While I'm not particularly interested in the PvE aspect of werewolf, I know for sure that there are many many players who is. And hard capping the timer for PvE would kill any reason to use one in PvE.

I really don't understand why people all of a sudden started to find the duration of werewolf to be an issue, when it really isn't.

If we exclude the fact that sets like alessian and eternal vigor is overloaded, the only aspect that need change with werewolf is the heal. And I've already repeated myself more than enough what needs to change with the heal, so please feel free to read my previous comment.

Adressing anything else about werewolf is the wrong approach. If people actually played werewolf in PvP they would understand why that's the case. But since the majority of people who complains doesn't (or they abuse it in low mmr battlegrounds when fighting less skilled players in PvE gear thinking it makes ww OP), it's understandable they can't see the obvious solution.

The issue is that werewolf was always cheesy and overpowered, for Solo PvE content its been godtier (easier vetmaelstrom completions than a petsorc heavy attack build)but in PvP was reserved for low skilled players until recently when good players started to use it and theory craft for it. Now everyone has a youtube picked super cheese build and 600 cps on a werewolf now run around with the survivability, health and resistance of a tank with the damage of a DPS build, all whilst using 1 button and not having to keep a multitude of buffs up.

TheBonesXXX

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

I beg ZOS better add a hard reset WW timer , something like 3 - 4 mins .

There are so many many threads complain WW OP , healing is a problem but not the most big one , there are so many healing or sustain sources btw .

WW build in supernatural power , unlimited timer in certain condition , it's the problem .

While I'm not particularly interested in the PvE aspect of werewolf, I know for sure that there are many many players who is. And hard capping the timer for PvE would kill any reason to use one in PvE.

I really don't understand why people all of a sudden started to find the duration of werewolf to be an issue, when it really isn't.

If we exclude the fact that sets like alessian and eternal vigor is overloaded, the only aspect that need change with werewolf is the heal. And I've already repeated myself more than enough what needs to change with the heal, so please feel free to read my previous comment.

Adressing anything else about werewolf is the wrong approach. If people actually played werewolf in PvP they would understand why that's the case. But since the majority of people who complains doesn't (or they abuse it in low mmr battlegrounds when fighting less skilled players in PvE gear thinking it makes ww OP), it's understandable they can't see the obvious solution.

The issue is that werewolf was always cheesy and overpowered, for Solo PvE content its been godtier (easier vetmaelstrom completions than a petsorc heavy attack build)but in PvP was reserved for low skilled players until recently when good players started to use it and theory craft for it. Now everyone has a youtube picked super cheese build and 600 cps on a werewolf now run around with the survivability, health and resistance of a tank with the damage of a DPS build, all whilst using 1 button and not having to keep a multitude of buffs up.

You must just started PvPing because this is factually incorrect, WW is under a constant Buff/Nerf cycle, it's been useless just as much as it's been strong through out ESOs lifecycle.

Xiomaro

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

It is absurd how ridiculously easy werewolf is to play and there isn’t a single person who doesn’t play one who won’t agree. They are beyond tanky, can achieve absurdly high levels of health recovery, they have an entire average builds toolkit and more on 1 bar with every ability having multiple effects, can play with upwards of 50k health whilst still maintaining solid damage output and can sprint almost as fast as a max speed mount. Its hard to believe with the feedback from the community they haven’t received a direct change to how they perform and at this point totally ruin the Imperial City. It is beyond me as to why such a strong transformation ultimate gets any form of duration extension, let alone from multiple sources and can be kept up indefinitely without putting any real thought in to doing so.


Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.

I've seen a lot of builds over the last 3 years of playing this game but this one really just takes the cake.
If I had to sit down and design a build to overperform in PvP content I'm not sure I could do better than the current werewolf, obviously with the help of Alessia.

A lot of these effects, like a stun on impact ability, gap closers, are specifically there for PvP, you don't need to stun and gap close the ads sorry.

Honestly this is probably the most disrespectful combat change I've ever seen.

You'll literally never be able to kill someone with almost 10K health recovery, nevermind the rest of the stats and slew of free major buffs, but the fact that they can kill people while obtaining the stats in the pic is actually unconscionable.

ZOS did you think doing this was okay for the health of your PvP community?

You couldn't even bring yourselves to give vampires any sort of functional abilities for PvP during this huge rework for the entire skill line, yet somehow werewolf's get what's actually the perfect PvP tool kit?

How did this happen?

How is one player supposed to kill a player with 10K health recovery, 46K res, two healing abilities mag and stam both over 15K tool tips one deals damage, fear on impact, a 12K tool tip with 25% damage increase for hitting a feared target, and free light and heavy attack bleeds?

I feel like a tank is going to feel pressure trying to sustain through all that free damage let alone a player running an offense based build.

This build and basically every other werewolf build is only going to kill badly built players. Werewolves are literally just another flavour of troll tank. Werewolf is for bad players to kill other bad players. That's literally all it is.

No you can't kill them 1v1 but they shouldn't be able to kill you either. If you're DK/Warden/Templar/Necro you should be built tanky enough that a fear and a few howls won't kill you. And if you're a Nightblade or Sorcerer, you can just escape the werewolf.

Those 11k tooltips on howl even with the 25% bonus is still less than 14k. And that's just the tooltip that doesn't take into account battle spirit or any other damage reduction your opponent would have. If we're talking tooltips, a well built Stamden can land a 16k Dizzy, a medium attack, 21k Dawnbreaker and 19k Shalks. That all hits within ~1.5 seconds. That's what real burst looks like. If you're dying to 11k tooltip howls, you need to look at your build.

wheem_ESO

ZOS for sure needs to fix the bug where the wolf pets constantly apply that annoying "NPC snare" that goes through immunity.

TheBonesXXX

Xiomaro wrote: »

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

It is absurd how ridiculously easy werewolf is to play and there isn’t a single person who doesn’t play one who won’t agree. They are beyond tanky, can achieve absurdly high levels of health recovery, they have an entire average builds toolkit and more on 1 bar with every ability having multiple effects, can play with upwards of 50k health whilst still maintaining solid damage output and can sprint almost as fast as a max speed mount. Its hard to believe with the feedback from the community they haven’t received a direct change to how they perform and at this point totally ruin the Imperial City. It is beyond me as to why such a strong transformation ultimate gets any form of duration extension, let alone from multiple sources and can be kept up indefinitely without putting any real thought in to doing so.


Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.

I've seen a lot of builds over the last 3 years of playing this game but this one really just takes the cake.
If I had to sit down and design a build to overperform in PvP content I'm not sure I could do better than the current werewolf, obviously with the help of Alessia.

A lot of these effects, like a stun on impact ability, gap closers, are specifically there for PvP, you don't need to stun and gap close the ads sorry.

Honestly this is probably the most disrespectful combat change I've ever seen.

You'll literally never be able to kill someone with almost 10K health recovery, nevermind the rest of the stats and slew of free major buffs, but the fact that they can kill people while obtaining the stats in the pic is actually unconscionable.

ZOS did you think doing this was okay for the health of your PvP community?

You couldn't even bring yourselves to give vampires any sort of functional abilities for PvP during this huge rework for the entire skill line, yet somehow werewolf's get what's actually the perfect PvP tool kit?

How did this happen?

How is one player supposed to kill a player with 10K health recovery, 46K res, two healing abilities mag and stam both over 15K tool tips one deals damage, fear on impact, a 12K tool tip with 25% damage increase for hitting a feared target, and free light and heavy attack bleeds?

I feel like a tank is going to feel pressure trying to sustain through all that free damage let alone a player running an offense based build.

This build and basically every other werewolf build is only going to kill badly built players. Werewolves are literally just another flavour of troll tank. Werewolf is for bad players to kill other bad players. That's literally all it is.

No you can't kill them 1v1 but they shouldn't be able to kill you either. If you're DK/Warden/Templar/Necro you should be built tanky enough that a fear and a few howls won't kill you. And if you're a Nightblade or Sorcerer, you can just escape the werewolf.

Those 11k tooltips on howl even with the 25% bonus is still less than 14k. And that's just the tooltip that doesn't take into account battle spirit or any other damage reduction your opponent would have. If we're talking tooltips, a well built Stamden can land a 16k Dizzy, a medium attack, 21k Dawnbreaker and 19k Shalks. That all hits within ~1.5 seconds. That's what real burst looks like. If you're dying to 11k tooltip howls, you need to look at your build.

This and reaction time, if I can PvP with brain surgery, two strokes, and concussive injuries there's really no excuse.

Bullseyebudx

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

This build and basically every other werewolf build is only going to kill badly built players. Werewolves are literally just another flavour of troll tank. Werewolf is for bad players to kill other bad players. That's literally all it is.

No you can't kill them 1v1 but they shouldn't be able to kill you either. If you're DK/Warden/Templar/Necro you should be built tanky enough that a fear and a few howls won't kill you. And if you're a Nightblade or Sorcerer, you can just escape the werewolf.

Those 11k tooltips on howl even with the 25% bonus is still less than 14k. And that's just the tooltip that doesn't take into account battle spirit or any other damage reduction your opponent would have. If we're talking tooltips, a well built Stamden can land a 16k Dizzy, a medium attack, 21k Dawnbreaker and 19k Shalks. That all hits within ~1.5 seconds. That's what real burst looks like. If you're dying to 11k tooltip howls, you need to look at your build.

You're missing the point.
You're solution to this problem is literally oh well you can run away from it, it's no different then being ultra bursted down.
I want to know how the Stamden with all that burst damage beats this build if you're forced to fight it.
How does any build, including the WW build itself, first sustain against it and then actually have enough damage to kill it just straight 1v1.
Maybe if you had onslaught instead of Dawnbreaker you'd have a chance, but with that burst heal and fear I doubt it.

If it takes a minimum of 3 players, and I do mean like actual good players with skills, builds they're familiar with, and a coordinated ult dump to not kill this build but bring it in execute range that's not good.

I made a suboptimal version of this build last night, easy 1v5 WITH A HEALER, like actually no problem killed all of them, and then had a follow up battle against another 3 killed them too with help from a Nightblade.
My point is, they were dead before we even started fighting okay, not only that but I doubt their builds even had the capability combined to kill me. I don't even think I dropped below half health.
A few 810's but yah they were noobs/noobplars.

In a group?
You have AoE Fear and Major Defile with a beafy execute and free bleeds that also benefit from Siphoner, you might not be doing a lot of the killing but overtime you're going to run people into the ground with free stat tax and eventually your team will be able to kill them on a stun lock if you can't.
Realistically you're probably not going to die either if you have teammates who can either pull agro off you if you're getting bursted or heal you through it.

So why shouldn't you play this build, besides the fact that it's obviously toxic af, if you can't kill it solo.
I'm probably never going to lose 1v1, it can 1vX, great group utility.

Qbiken

@Bullseyebudx

If it takes a minimum of 3 players, and I do mean like actual good players with skills, builds they're familiar with, and a coordinated ult dump to not kill this build but bring it in execute range that's not good.

It´s kind of a known fact that a werewolf is forced to run at least two sustain or defensive sets in order to even function in a PvP environment. The second you start running damage sets you require a group with a healer. I don´t know about you, but if I run two defensive sets, or 1 sustain + 1 defensive set, I would expect myself to be hard to take down. This goes for any build and isn´t something werewolf unique. And using 1vX vs less competent players or low MMR BG´s as a measurement of something overperforming isn´t the best way to tell if something is overperforming.

Being unkillable or being able to stalemate a 1v1 doesn´t make werewolf OP.

You have AoE Fear and Major Defile with a beafy execute and free bleeds that also benefit from Siphoner, you might not be doing a lot of the killing but overtime you're going to run people into the ground with free stat tax and eventually your team will be able to kill them on a stun lock if you can't.

Just wanted to address your comment about the execute mechanic from pounce. It´s one of the worst executes in the game. Please stop spreading lies. It´s even subpar in PvE on a 21 million target dummy. And from what I can tell you´ve played werewolf from a CP perspective. Try werewolf in NOCP and you´ll see that the ONLY thing that is overtuned on werewolf is the fact that the heal scales of max HP. I´ve suggested since Wolfhunter that the heal should scale of max stamina and weapon damage.

So why shouldn't you play this build, besides the fact that it's obviously toxic af, if you can't kill it solo.
I'm probably never going to lose 1v1, it can 1vX, great group utility.

Again, being unkillable in 1v1 isn´t a testimony of something being too strong. Literally any stamcro or stamden can achieve the same survivability but with much higher damage output and better survivability than a werewolf. Sure in a match between a WW vs Stamcro/Stamden they can stalemate eachother, but I fail to see how that´s a ww issue.

Your earlier screenshot just showcases how overtuned Alessian and Eternal Vigor is, and anyone experienced with werewolf knows that they´ve been carried by whatever FOTM set that´s been overperforming for ages.

Chrlynsch

Let's also take a second to look at indirect changes to werewolf balance.

-Major Defile removed from many ability sources, this used to help keep Health regen and high burst heals in check.

-Major/minor defile nerfed, werewolves never had direct access to mending or vigor. Again they reduced the impact of these debuffs, thus making set based troll werewolves look have less counters.

-Major Health regen buff increased to 40% (Fuels the set abuse)

-Bleeds no longer ignore armor (Resistance stacking Counter)

-Oblivion Damage Nerfed (Health Stacking Counter)

-Proc Set Buffs (No longer need any weapon Damage, Stamina or skills to hurt enemies)

As it has been said fix werewolf's heal so it scales off of stamina and weapon damage.

The rest of balance that needs addressed is not werewolf specific but set specific.

Bullseyebudx

Qbiken wrote: »

@Bullseyebudx

If it takes a minimum of 3 players, and I do mean like actual good players with skills, builds they're familiar with, and a coordinated ult dump to not kill this build but bring it in execute range that's not good.

It´s kind of a known fact that a werewolf is forced to run at least two sustain or defensive sets in order to even function in a PvP environment. The second you start running damage sets you require a group with a healer. I don´t know about you, but if I run two defensive sets, or 1 sustain + 1 defensive set, I would expect myself to be hard to take down. This goes for any build and isn´t something werewolf unique. And using 1vX vs less competent players or low MMR BG´s as a measurement of something overperforming isn´t the best way to tell if something is overperforming.

Being unkillable or being able to stalemate a 1v1 doesn´t make werewolf OP.

You have AoE Fear and Major Defile with a beafy execute and free bleeds that also benefit from Siphoner, you might not be doing a lot of the killing but overtime you're going to run people into the ground with free stat tax and eventually your team will be able to kill them on a stun lock if you can't.

Just wanted to address your comment about the execute mechanic from pounce. It´s one of the worst executes in the game. Please stop spreading lies. It´s even subpar in PvE on a 21 million target dummy. And from what I can tell you´ve played werewolf from a CP perspective. Try werewolf in NOCP and you´ll see that the ONLY thing that is overtuned on werewolf is the fact that the heal scales of max HP. I´ve suggested since Wolfhunter that the heal should scale of max stamina and weapon damage.

So why shouldn't you play this build, besides the fact that it's obviously toxic af, if you can't kill it solo.
I'm probably never going to lose 1v1, it can 1vX, great group utility.

Again, being unkillable in 1v1 isn´t a testimony of something being too strong. Literally any stamcro or stamden can achieve the same survivability but with much higher damage output and better survivability than a werewolf. Sure in a match between a WW vs Stamcro/Stamden they can stalemate eachother, but I fail to see how that´s a ww issue.

Your earlier screenshot just showcases how overtuned Alessian and Eternal Vigor is, and anyone experienced with werewolf knows that they´ve been carried by whatever FOTM set that´s been overperforming for ages.

I almost exclusively play in CP, except BG's where I have no choice and I'm forced too. I ran into a WW in a BG the other day and noticed it was good but not on the same level as it's CP counterpart.

Look it's not just the werewolf skill line that's the issue, it's the entire build as I've referred to it, all the parts. What portion of the build is responsible for it's % of brokeness; the sets cause 90-95% of the issue, then there's obviously the health recovery buff and the defile nerf which exacerbate the issue further.

Can other classes run these sets together as effectively as a werewolf can? I don't think so, if they could then werewolf wouldn't be the subject, werewolf lets you abuse these sets the most. What if we nerfed Alessia, I think people would either move over to Beekeeper for werewolf or Seventh legion for stambuilds without WW, and werewolf would probably still be part of the issue but less.

Just Alessia alone lets you stack 10K extra resistances effectively by generating 2K-3K more health recovery, when buffed up, over the next closest alternative, Beekeeper, and 20K resistances with 3-4K health recovery compared to Seventh Legion which should be a pretty clear indicator of the problem here. Can you think of any sets that give you 10K-20K resistances with 2-4K health recovery?

First three tool tips are for the Alessia & Vigor WW build (Beekeeper is only going to effect res & recov)

Don't forget to add the LA damage from this too.



These are the tool tips for Alessia & Vigor non-WW build



These two are for a Seventh Legion & Vigor Build non-WW



I don't know about you but the differences are pretty obvious to me.

Chrlynsch

Bullseyebudx wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

@Bullseyebudx

If it takes a minimum of 3 players, and I do mean like actual good players with skills, builds they're familiar with, and a coordinated ult dump to not kill this build but bring it in execute range that's not good.

It´s kind of a known fact that a werewolf is forced to run at least two sustain or defensive sets in order to even function in a PvP environment. The second you start running damage sets you require a group with a healer. I don´t know about you, but if I run two defensive sets, or 1 sustain + 1 defensive set, I would expect myself to be hard to take down. This goes for any build and isn´t something werewolf unique. And using 1vX vs less competent players or low MMR BG´s as a measurement of something overperforming isn´t the best way to tell if something is overperforming.

Being unkillable or being able to stalemate a 1v1 doesn´t make werewolf OP.

You have AoE Fear and Major Defile with a beafy execute and free bleeds that also benefit from Siphoner, you might not be doing a lot of the killing but overtime you're going to run people into the ground with free stat tax and eventually your team will be able to kill them on a stun lock if you can't.

Just wanted to address your comment about the execute mechanic from pounce. It´s one of the worst executes in the game. Please stop spreading lies. It´s even subpar in PvE on a 21 million target dummy. And from what I can tell you´ve played werewolf from a CP perspective. Try werewolf in NOCP and you´ll see that the ONLY thing that is overtuned on werewolf is the fact that the heal scales of max HP. I´ve suggested since Wolfhunter that the heal should scale of max stamina and weapon damage.

So why shouldn't you play this build, besides the fact that it's obviously toxic af, if you can't kill it solo.
I'm probably never going to lose 1v1, it can 1vX, great group utility.

Again, being unkillable in 1v1 isn´t a testimony of something being too strong. Literally any stamcro or stamden can achieve the same survivability but with much higher damage output and better survivability than a werewolf. Sure in a match between a WW vs Stamcro/Stamden they can stalemate eachother, but I fail to see how that´s a ww issue.

Your earlier screenshot just showcases how overtuned Alessian and Eternal Vigor is, and anyone experienced with werewolf knows that they´ve been carried by whatever FOTM set that´s been overperforming for ages.

I almost exclusively play in CP, except BG's where I have no choice and I'm forced too. I ran into a WW in a BG the other day and noticed it was good but not on the same level as it's CP counterpart.

Look it's not just the werewolf skill line that's the issue, it's the entire build as I've referred to it, all the parts. What portion of the build is responsible for it's % of brokeness; the sets cause 90-95% of the issue, then there's obviously the health recovery buff and the defile nerf which exacerbate the issue further.

Can other classes run these sets together as effectively as a werewolf can? I don't think so, if they could then werewolf wouldn't be the subject, werewolf lets you abuse these sets the most. What if we nerfed Alessia, I think people would either move over to Beekeeper for werewolf or Seventh legion for stambuilds without WW, and werewolf would probably still be part of the issue but less.

Just Alessia alone lets you stack 10K extra resistances effectively by generating 2K-3K more health recovery, when buffed up, over the next closest alternative, Beekeeper, and 20K resistances with 3-4K health recovery compared to Seventh Legion which should be a pretty clear indicator of the problem here. Can you think of any sets that give you 10K-20K resistances with 2-4K health recovery?

First three tool tips are for the Alessia & Vigor WW build (Beekeeper is only going to effect res & recov)

Don't forget to add the LA damage from this too.



These are the tool tips for Alessia & Vigor non-WW build



These two are for a Seventh Legion & Vigor Build non-WW



I don't know about you but the differences are pretty obvious to me.

Wow you are right look at how much more expensive those werewolf abilities are, want to put a execute dot on an enemy? That will cost ya 8k stamina.

hexnotic

Well I guess the fact that the ult is bugged helps balance things riiiight?

ccfeeling

I agree WW should be OP, because its ultimate transformation.
Run 1 heavy armor set , 1 dmg set or 1 meta proc set , and there are many heavy armor proc sets in the game, WW dmg is damm high with super build in defense, its impossible to kill a skillful WW in 1v1. Just like you Chrlynsch.
If WW tends to play 1vX,replaced the dmg set by sustain set, I assume no healer.

Once again, hard reset timer is required,5 to 25 mins, whatever. WW build has to think about the combat outside WW form, thats what game balance Im looking for. You guys still can keep the super natural power without any nerfs.

Maybe next year, there are other major bugs gonna fix by the end of this year sadly.

Bullseyebudx

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Wow you are right look at how much more expensive those werewolf abilities are, want to put a execute dot on an enemy? That will cost ya 8k stamina.

Bro common you have nearly 4K stamina recovery, that’s plenty to sustain 8K executes.

Honestly I was able to just light attack people to death lool

I think they probably just need to put a cap on health recovery, that’s going to solve a majority of the issues.

vindex9ona

Just Alessia alone lets you stack 10K extra resistances effectively by generating 2K-3K more health recovery, when buffed up, over the next closest alternative, Beekeeper, and 20K resistances with 3-4K health recovery compared to Seventh Legion which should be a pretty clear indicator of the problem here. Can you think of any sets that give you 10K-20K resistances with 2-4K health recovery.

All those sets work exactly the same way for WW and non-WW, the only difference is the 10K extra resistances you get in WW form, which affect Alessian.
Now the correct math is 10.000*2*0.02=400 health regen more.
+400 regen is what you get for being a WW over the same build using the same sets and not being a WW.

Even with 5 heavy, 10% from CP and a potion active, that gives you only around 680 more health regen fully buffed up by being a WW, 640 in BG.

Not 2K-4K more.

All the rest you can do with a non-WW build too, and the 10K extra resistances apply no matter the set you are using.