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Werewolf is the single most grossly over performing thing in PvP
Fawn4287
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It is absurd how ridiculously easy werewolf is to play and there isn’t a single person who doesn’t play one who won’t agree. They are beyond tanky, can achieve absurdly high levels of health recovery, they have an entire average builds toolkit and more on 1 bar with every ability having multiple effects, can play with upwards of 50k health whilst still maintaining solid damage output and can sprint almost as fast as a max speed mount. Its hard to believe with the feedback from the community they haven’t received a direct change to how they perform and at this point totally ruin the Imperial City. It is beyond me as to why such a strong transformation ultimate gets any form of duration extension, let alone from multiple sources and can be kept up indefinitely without putting any real thought in to doing so.
Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.
Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.
10
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Dunning_Kruger✭✭✭✭Selling impen and divines Alessian pieces on PCNA____________________________________
A G G R O - the legendary stamplar GM of <HALL MONITORS>
For the Queen bby11 -
Rhaegar75✭✭✭✭✭It is absurd how ridiculously easy werewolf is to play and there isn’t a single person who doesn’t play one who won’t agree. They are beyond tanky, can achieve absurdly high levels of health recovery, they have an entire average builds toolkit and more on 1 bar with every ability having multiple effects, can play with upwards of 50k health whilst still maintaining solid damage output and can sprint almost as fast as a max speed mount. Its hard to believe with the feedback from the community they haven’t received a direct change to how they perform and at this point totally ruin the Imperial City. It is beyond me as to why such a strong transformation ultimate gets any form of duration extension, let alone from multiple sources and can be kept up indefinitely without putting any real thought in to doing so.
Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.
you forget to include EWW - 'Easy Win' Wardens' - stack health and let the proc sets and class boons do your job!1 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Remove the heath based heal, so werewolves aren't encouraged to stack health, and thus can be properly bursted. That would shift their gameplay from lumbering, proc based damage to fast/reactive, ability based damage.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA17 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Remove the heath based heal, so werewolves aren't encouraged to stack health, and thus can be properly bursted. That would shift their gameplay from lumbering, proc based damage to fast/reactive, ability based damage.
Get out, we don't want reasonable suggestions and solutions here
/s
Edited by Qbiken on November 14, 2020 2:07PM1 -
nckg84✭✭✭Stop the nerf this and that and start the discussion that the entire game design is flawed.5
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Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OP, ZOS received a lot of feedback regarding WW from players last year.
Elsweyr & entire year long story was basically a huge nerf fest when it comes to WWs. ZOS made them kinda unplayable tbh. There were a RP meme.
Only this year, WW received a negative & positive effect (criminal act & therefore WW ulti & some ww skills received a corresponding buff).
Now the problem with WW (if there is any) is that well... Just like with pretty much everything else in this game: Solo vs Group Environment...
I mean, try to play WW solo in PvP. Go ahead. No zerg surfing. Go to Cyro or IC and try it out solo. You will realize that WW is kinda... hard to play when it comes to being able to do anything solo in PvP.
Now it changes drastically in a group with dedicated healer / support, as you eliminate most of WW flaws - sustain, lack of negative effect removal / cc immunity and most importantly - extremely expensive heal.
If you want to kill WW, you basically CC them & force them to cast 2 - 3 heals. Then, they are out of magicka & they die. You might also try magicka skill cost poisons. Dots can be very helpful too as WW can not purge negative effects. Especially if those are poison dots (basically current meta, venomous smite, sheer venom, poison injection etc.).
Now in a group, WW basically does not need to worry about healing / purge / cc. Group can provide that. This is also one of the reasons ball groups exists in Cyro. It is one of the easiest way to do stuff. You build for tankyness, but since you have 24 ppl - you still dish out insane dmg combined with cc.
So, is WW a problem ? Nope.
It is solo vs group balancing issue.
And rightfully so. Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. ZOS can balance sets & skills all the way they want but the problem always will come back - because of how group environment works in ESO and what it enables. So, untill ZOS will figure out how to "globally" balance groups (like idk, something like global buff / de-buff system, like battle spirit, but it will scale will group size and effect will get stronger the larger the group is) we will have those nerf-buff-nerf-buff cycle that players in general - hate...5 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Remove Devour passive , ROFL , believe me , once ZOS do it , WW population huge drop for sure
WW aren't immortal , but it takes time and skills to kill them , you ok with it ?
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MentalxHammer✭✭✭✭✭
✭The most important thing in the OP is that they are completely ruining the Imperial City. The IC used to be my favorite pvp format, and my primary source of in game gold. Now I dont even go in there.
Now all form of competition is void in the IC, with almost every player crutching on 40k hp werewolf builds. The worst part is most serious pvp players refuse to play in WW form, because playing 1 bar is boring as hell. So the IC has essentially been conceded to a bunch of noobs, cheesing for tel var they could never make on a real class.Edited by MentalxHammer on November 16, 2020 11:12AM8 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭MentalxHammer wrote: »The most important thing in the OP is that they are completely ruining the Imperial City. The IC used to be my favorite pvp format, and my primary source of in game gold. Now I dont even go in there.
Now all form of competition is void in the IC, with almost every player crutching on 40k hp werewolf builds. The worst part is most serious pvp players refuse to play in WW form, because playing 1 bar is boring as hell. So the IC has essentially been conceded to a bunch of noobs, cheesing for tel var they could never make on a real class.
Thank you, you have summed up my main issue perfectly2 -
Dirt_Rooster✭✭✭As far as no-cp goes, I haven't really had any problems with them. I'm sure they're stronger in CP content. Takes longer than normal to kill them, but it's easy to outheal their damage and force them to spam the awooo ***... Run them out of resources.0
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Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »OP, ZOS received a lot of feedback regarding WW from players last year.
Elsweyr & entire year long story was basically a huge nerf fest when it comes to WWs. ZOS made them kinda unplayable tbh. There were a RP meme.
Only this year, WW received a negative & positive effect (criminal act & therefore WW ulti & some ww skills received a corresponding buff).
Now the problem with WW (if there is any) is that well... Just like with pretty much everything else in this game: Solo vs Group Environment...
I mean, try to play WW solo in PvP. Go ahead. No zerg surfing. Go to Cyro or IC and try it out solo. You will realize that WW is kinda... hard to play when it comes to being able to do anything solo in PvP.
Now it changes drastically in a group with dedicated healer / support, as you eliminate most of WW flaws - sustain, lack of negative effect removal / cc immunity and most importantly - extremely expensive heal.
If you want to kill WW, you basically CC them & force them to cast 2 - 3 heals. Then, they are out of magicka & they die. You might also try magicka skill cost poisons. Dots can be very helpful too as WW can not purge negative effects. Especially if those are poison dots (basically current meta, venomous smite, sheer venom, poison injection etc.).
Now in a group, WW basically does not need to worry about healing / purge / cc. Group can provide that. This is also one of the reasons ball groups exists in Cyro. It is one of the easiest way to do stuff. You build for tankyness, but since you have 24 ppl - you still dish out insane dmg combined with cc.
So, is WW a problem ? Nope.
It is solo vs group balancing issue.
And rightfully so. Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. ZOS can balance sets & skills all the way they want but the problem always will come back - because of how group environment works in ESO and what it enables. So, untill ZOS will figure out how to "globally" balance groups (like idk, something like global buff / de-buff system, like battle spirit, but it will scale will group size and effect will get stronger the larger the group is) we will have those nerf-buff-nerf-buff cycle that players in general - hate...
I mean if you build your werewolf right you should be rocking 6-7k hp recovery and then healing isn't an issue anymore.
I do play ww in ic and sometimes in cyro and it compares to playing stamden in terms of tankiness.
As for mag sustain, eternal vigor and heavy armor is all you need.4 -
EtTuBrutus✭✭✭✭✭Id love to see everyones clips of them playing WW. Ive got some. WW is ridiculously stupid strong in no cp when built with sustain. In cp, my build reaches such absurd numbers that you have to make a mistake or get dog piled to die. Im not even talking about imp physique builds.6
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IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭I don't know if it's just me playing as a healer (light armor don't get any ideas) and I've played the ww in the past so I know how it ticks but the werewolfes I run into are nothing more then glorified tanks. incredibly annoying but damage wise non threatening. High health regen and high resistances but 1 proc set for damage isn't enough to pressure me at least. I don't know how anyone gets killed by the classical Alessia werewolves that are running around.
Xbox-EU-AD
Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.1 -
Kory✭✭✭✭Remove the heath based heal, so werewolves aren't encouraged to stack health, and thus can be properly bursted. That would shift their gameplay from lumbering, proc based damage to fast/reactive, ability based damage.
I was thinking Werewolves were given a Health based heal BECASUE they can be properly bursted. Not to mention currently taking 25% extra damage from already strong poison damage output from proc sets AND abilities. Also consider incoming Defile sources, weakening healing.
Also where is the exchange? Why simply remove the heal? How about if the heal is removed, give it some more damage and some executing power on one the abilities.0 -
Kartalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Remove the heath based heal, so werewolves aren't encouraged to stack health, and thus can be properly bursted. That would shift their gameplay from lumbering, proc based damage to fast/reactive, ability based damage.
I was thinking Werewolves were given a Health based heal BECASUE they can be properly bursted. Not to mention currently taking 25% extra damage from already strong poison damage output from proc sets AND abilities. Also consider incoming Defile sources, weakening healing.
Also where is the exchange? Why simply remove the heal? How about if the heal is removed, give it some more damage and some executing power on one the abilities.
I think they mean to make the heal scale based on magicka or stamina rather than health instead of removing it completely.- PC/NA
- Karllotta, AD Magplar, AR 50
- Hatched-In-Glacier, DC Magden, AR 44
- Miraliys, EP Warden, AR 35
- Kartalin, AD Stamblade, AR 35
- Kallenna, AD Magcro, AR 34
- Miralys, EP Magsorc, AR 34
- Milthalas, EP Magblade, AR 34
- Lemon Party - Meanest Girls - @ Kartalin - Youtube
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TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
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Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.
I don't think removing ult cost reduction is a good idea, as ult cost rises with Vampire.
The question not being asked and should be is wondering why someone can achieve those numbers? Stat inflation looks like the culprit to me.0 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »
Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.
I don't think removing ult cost reduction is a good idea, as ult cost rises with Vampire.
The question not being asked and should be is wondering why someone can achieve those numbers? Stat inflation looks like the culprit to me.
The issue is that the ult is incredibly overpowered for something that can be kept up indefinitely. 30% stam, 18% weapon damage, 10k resists, 10% mitigation, 30% bonus movement speed on sprint. Every one of those buffs is a 5 piece set and the stam is even stronger. Its easy to see why when you run max health and recovery, the rest of the build carries regardless of stats when you are running around in basically 5, 5 piece sets worth of buffs and stat boosts. The ult just needs to end after 20 seconds, thats it, no other balance needs to be done if that was the case.5 -
EtTuBrutus✭✭✭✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »
Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.
I don't think removing ult cost reduction is a good idea, as ult cost rises with Vampire.
The question not being asked and should be is wondering why someone can achieve those numbers? Stat inflation looks like the culprit to me.
The issue is that the ult is incredibly overpowered for something that can be kept up indefinitely. 30% stam, 18% weapon damage, 10k resists, 10% mitigation, 30% bonus movement speed on sprint. Every one of those buffs is a 5 piece set and the stam is even stronger. Its easy to see why when you run max health and recovery, the rest of the build carries regardless of stats when you are running around in basically 5, 5 piece sets worth of buffs and stat boosts. The ult just needs to end after 20 seconds, thats it, no other balance needs to be done if that was the case.
But that's not fun.1 -
LtAscott✭✭[snip]
Your running a glass cannon character I'm assuming, probably bow or magicka/destro staff, set up for high AoE dmg (Really a PvE build in PvP) to farm telvar stones, a character comes in with a build specifically planned and made to gank your style of play, and [snip] That's what I read it as.
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Lunar on November 18, 2020 1:42PM2 -
Kory✭✭✭✭Remove the heath based heal, so werewolves aren't encouraged to stack health, and thus can be properly bursted. That would shift their gameplay from lumbering, proc based damage to fast/reactive, ability based damage.
I was thinking Werewolves were given a Health based heal BECASUE they can be properly bursted. Not to mention currently taking 25% extra damage from already strong poison damage output from proc sets AND abilities. Also consider incoming Defile sources, weakening healing.
Also where is the exchange? Why simply remove the heal? How about if the heal is removed, give it some more damage and some executing power on one the abilities.
I think they mean to make the heal scale based on magicka or stamina rather than health instead of removing it completely.
That would not change the gameplay element of stacking health and using damage procs in my opinion. Also in reverse, that would have some players use procs geared toward sustain and tankiness, whilst having a stamina based heal which would be strong, and more stamina increases effectives of stamina abilities, in turn more damage. I mean pick your poison.
Stepping back a little, WWs can already be bursted, I've done it, I've seen it, and it happened to me. In my view, the health based heal encourages points in health and or health enchants etc. because of the damage potential WW takes, including being affected by defile, and being clunky especially when affected by CCs.
The current WW heal cost over 5k magicka, almost 6k. WW is a stamina based thing, there is a dynamic of stats that any player has to manage, with things like damage being affected or sustain.
Taking another step back, this "issue" is not exclusive to Werewolves, or even stamina builds. As far as tank builds with damage procs, this kind of stuff goes for all players. I don't even need to pull up video of Magcro, Stamdk, wardens etc. some of yall should know
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Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭[snip]
Your running a glass cannon character I'm assuming, probably bow or magicka/destro staff, set up for high AoE dmg (Really a PvE build in PvP) to farm telvar stones, a character comes in with a build specifically planned and made to gank your style of play, and [snip] That's what I read it as.
You could not be more wrong, Im running a 3 damage set 2h, s&b stam necro in med with 30k health, 5300 weapon damage and malacath, I hit like 2.9 k wrecking blows on wwolves when I hit around 6k on most other builds. Wwolves are a broken overpowered crutch, its as simple as that.Edited by ZOS_Lunar on November 18, 2020 1:42PM8 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I disagree. Lag is the single most grossly over-performing thing in PvP. Many of us have been defeated many times by lag.2 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »
Removing any form of skill line ult cost reduction and removing all duration extending capabilities is by far the most logical and reasonable way to balance this. Please before you jump in with “remove health based healing” or “make this ‘insert ridiculously specific’ battlespirit change”, remember PvE exists and the bulk majority of the player base are role players, questers and normal trial lfg pugs. ZOS are not bothered to make such a gigantic change for the small PvP population and such input is neither helpful or constructive and derails the thread.
I don't think removing ult cost reduction is a good idea, as ult cost rises with Vampire.
The question not being asked and should be is wondering why someone can achieve those numbers? Stat inflation looks like the culprit to me.
The issue is that the ult is incredibly overpowered for something that can be kept up indefinitely. 30% stam, 18% weapon damage, 10k resists, 10% mitigation, 30% bonus movement speed on sprint. Every one of those buffs is a 5 piece set and the stam is even stronger. Its easy to see why when you run max health and recovery, the rest of the build carries regardless of stats when you are running around in basically 5, 5 piece sets worth of buffs and stat boosts. The ult just needs to end after 20 seconds, thats it, no other balance needs to be done if that was the case.
That's stat inflation, which is the real culprit you described. If it was additive it would be a viable flavourful playstyle.
Sounds like a Nord Warden Berserker is in order!0 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭I disagree. Lag is the single most grossly over-performing thing in PvP. Many of us have been defeated many times by lag.
Lag is actually a non issue when you zerg and have a huge health pool and high health recovery (most werewolf players) so high that it’s basically stronger than most people HOTs, werewolfs built with alessian are literally AFK survivability.0 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yup, WW is for players who need a one bar tank that can put out top tier dps. Sad.2 -
ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »OP, ZOS received a lot of feedback regarding WW from players last year.
Elsweyr & entire year long story was basically a huge nerf fest when it comes to WWs. ZOS made them kinda unplayable tbh. There were a RP meme.
Only this year, WW received a negative & positive effect (criminal act & therefore WW ulti & some ww skills received a corresponding buff).
Now the problem with WW (if there is any) is that well... Just like with pretty much everything else in this game: Solo vs Group Environment...
I mean, try to play WW solo in PvP. Go ahead. No zerg surfing. Go to Cyro or IC and try it out solo. You will realize that WW is kinda... hard to play when it comes to being able to do anything solo in PvP.
Now it changes drastically in a group with dedicated healer / support, as you eliminate most of WW flaws - sustain, lack of negative effect removal / cc immunity and most importantly - extremely expensive heal.
If you want to kill WW, you basically CC them & force them to cast 2 - 3 heals. Then, they are out of magicka & they die. You might also try magicka skill cost poisons. Dots can be very helpful too as WW can not purge negative effects. Especially if those are poison dots (basically current meta, venomous smite, sheer venom, poison injection etc.).
Now in a group, WW basically does not need to worry about healing / purge / cc. Group can provide that. This is also one of the reasons ball groups exists in Cyro. It is one of the easiest way to do stuff. You build for tankyness, but since you have 24 ppl - you still dish out insane dmg combined with cc.
So, is WW a problem ? Nope.
It is solo vs group balancing issue.
And rightfully so. Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. ZOS can balance sets & skills all the way they want but the problem always will come back - because of how group environment works in ESO and what it enables. So, untill ZOS will figure out how to "globally" balance groups (like idk, something like global buff / de-buff system, like battle spirit, but it will scale will group size and effect will get stronger the larger the group is) we will have those nerf-buff-nerf-buff cycle that players in general - hate...
I mean if you build your werewolf right you should be rocking 6-7k hp recovery and then healing isn't an issue anymore.
I do play ww in ic and sometimes in cyro and it compares to playing stamden in terms of tankiness.
As for mag sustain, eternal vigor and heavy armor is all you need.
And here we have what is wrong with WW smh5
