Do we really need classes in ESO?

Lysette

p00tx wrote: »

Removing classes would just homogenize the game for everyone but the roleplayer community and would very likely make it extremely boring to anyone trying to play at the top end. I know the common response to this will likely be "Well so what? That's only a small part of the community and we shouldn't be trying to appease them". Keep in mind though, it's the top end players who test and find the bugs (that get ignored usually), and who figure out how skills and items work and they're the top streamers. We do it because we benefit the most from having the game work at peak performance. Disregard that part of the community and you remove any incentives the company has to fix combat bugs or balance issues. The game has to remain interesting enough to keep the attention of all communities, from the lvl 3 in prisoners rags fumbling around in starter zones, to housing fanatics, to crafters, to roleplayers, pvpers, and all the way up to the competitive pve sweats.

Well this is correct, when there is PVE and PVP in the game. But without the top end as you put it, we wouldn't have this problem in the first place. We wouldn't have to worry about balance either, because the heart and soul of role play is being non-conform, unbalanced and diverse. And as far as bugs go, we would find them as well, those bugs which bother us that is, I doubt we would care a lot about combat bugs, which are just slightly weird - and performance would be better as well. I see your point though, I just reject the notion of the top end being required for a good MMORPG - I actually think we would be better off without them - no pun intended, just my personal opinion.

MaurnaFrost

The original version of The Secret World had a highly flexible skills will with recommended builds but the player could choose whatever combination they wanted to put points into. The result was a few min-maxed builds that everyone played (leech for solo play oh who I miss thee). The system has been replaced in the current iteration with less flexibility but there is still a drive towards a few 'top' builds and little else.

Liukke

Generally I look at what people choose between DD Healer and Tank...and guess what? DDs are an extreme majority.
Many have multiple characters and they build an Healer or a Tank just to get through parties, have you tried queueing recently as single DD?
It's like 20minutes for a base game dungeon.

Now, what does that mean?
People always choose the easiest option, punching things rather than managing groups and, in my opinion, that translates in a classless world as well...people just going to the easiest build.
Of course, there would be role players, casual players, weekend players, which would be happily crossclassing here and there but, at the end, the most important player base is the one made by active, so called "hardcore" players.

Those who make a build, try skills, check their dps and try to raise their bar of awesomeness and...hold tight...that's not wrong at all.
I mean, the game is made by mechanics and if you want to roleplay you seriously don't need them, if you want to casual play you will never reach a point of competitiveness where you even realize the class differences...probably you're just badly geared or simply not capable of playing and you blame the classes for your unsuccess.

As already been said the game is quite class related mainly for party buffs and support, each class has unique skills that help everyone around them and they all need to cooperate to go through the hardest challenges.
Casual players don't even realize that for bigger vet trials you need to organize classes and sets, knowing which class every player is and what they are wearing.

If you take that out what will happen?
Everybody would go for the awesome solo playable dps/selfhealing awesomeness build, not giving a single damn about being part of a party (lol, I like this sentence) and bye bye not only diversity but possibility of properly doing high level content.

Am I sure about this?
Well, as I said, try queueing as DD for a dungeon...you can't find 3 more people in 20 minutes now imagine all that without class restrictions.

hafgood

I wouldn't want to go to a classless game.

Not because all wannabees would be running the same build because x, y or z (insert your favourite ESO influencers name) uses it but because when I log onto my main he is a stamplar, always has been, always will be. If I fancy something different I can hop onto my magcro, or my stamsorc, or my stamden, etc and play them I don't have to follow some.build to make them that class, they are that class already.

I've been playing rpg's for 40ish years, I grew up with AD&D, tried some of the others, played Quest and other PBM (play by mail), played Lords of Midnight amd Bards Tale, played Runescape. (And many many more). One thing I have enjoyed more in some games is the idea of race and class, the limitations and advantages of choosing one race / class over another.

If there was no class then all my characters would play the same, and what is the point in that? By giving us classes it forces us into different play styles as we play to the strengths and weaknesses of each. Without the class structure this wouldn't happen, I'm not saying all end game dps characters would look the same, in true end game they wouldn't because when you get there you are good enough to not conform to the so called meta. But I know all 17 of my characters would end up playing the same, why? Because I'm good at spamming jabs and not a lot else.

Rowjoh

This: Bang on, spot on, hits the nail on the head.

Liukke wrote: »

Generally I look at what people choose between DD Healer and Tank...and guess what? DDs are an extreme majority.
Many have multiple characters and they build an Healer or a Tank just to get through parties, have you tried queueing recently as single DD?
It's like 20minutes for a base game dungeon.

Now, what does that mean?
People always choose the easiest option, punching things rather than managing groups and, in my opinion, that translates in a classless world as well...people just going to the easiest build.
Of course, there would be role players, casual players, weekend players, which would be happily crossclassing here and there but, at the end, the most important player base is the one made by active, so called "hardcore" players.

Those who make a build, try skills, check their dps and try to raise their bar of awesomeness and...hold tight...that's not wrong at all.
I mean, the game is made by mechanics and if you want to roleplay you seriously don't need them, if you want to casual play you will never reach a point of competitiveness where you even realize the class differences...probably you're just badly geared or simply not capable of playing and you blame the classes for your unsuccess.

As already been said the game is quite class related mainly for party buffs and support, each class has unique skills that help everyone around them and they all need to cooperate to go through the hardest challenges.
Casual players don't even realize that for bigger vet trials you need to organize classes and sets, knowing which class every player is and what they are wearing.

If you take that out what will happen?
Everybody would go for the awesome solo playable dps/selfhealing awesomeness build, not giving a single damn about being part of a party (lol, I like this sentence) and bye bye not only diversity but possibility of properly doing high level content.

Am I sure about this?
Well, as I said, try queueing as DD for a dungeon...you can't find 3 more people in 20 minutes now imagine all that without class restrictions.

Luke_Flamesword

Of course giving everyone all classes skill lines will be unbalanced and really bad choice, but I have another idea. What about option to choose only 3 class skill lines to active, but of course no any lines. Oh, no no... there should be 3 groups of skill lines and you can choose only one from every group. There can be for example:
* DPS group with just damage skills
* Buffs group
* Defence group with healing and tank skills

Of course DPS group will have more skills than buffs (for example every DPS skill line have 8 skills, and every buff group have 4 skills)

Some skill line will be more magicka oriented, some stamina, some more hybrid. Every skill line should have main theme for example: fire, ice, lighting, poison, necro and they of course should be balanced so every DPS skill line have same DPS potential but in different ways - you know, some skill lines are more DOTs, some have more AOEs etc. You can choose your favourite theme or playstyle. You also can mix themes, so you can for example fire damage skills, ice buffs and necro defence skills. Of course you can change picked skill lines for gold at shrine.

It can be really fun, because this is really "play whatever you want" and also it gives much more diversity. Also ZOS can still sell new skill lines as new themes, not new class and everyone can benefit it without making new character. It will be still viable to have many alts anyway, because you will want test so many different combinations. Also making standardization to 3 specialized groups of skill lines makes balancing so much easier. Now it's a completely mess.

Lysette

The notion that it wouldn't be possible to have diversity in player abilities with a classless system in a pvp game is just wrong. It can be done and is for example quite well done in EVE online - no classes, just skills, and you can have any amount of it all active at the same time. So it is possible.

ESO took a different approach - there are not just classes, but you basically have to subclass it yourself on top of it, because you have just a limited number of slots on your bar. As much as I like classless systems, this isn't the right way for ESO. ESO chose to be a very narrow class based system with subclasses even - and I guess it would be too cumbersome to change it.

GrimTheReaper45

The thing with classes is there meant to add a variety to gameplay, They are suppose to give you different play styles to choose from. After years of "balancing by standards" I dont really think that holds true anymore. There are alot of classes that feel more than less the same with slightly different rotations strengths and weaknesses that dont really matter that much. Especially on the pve side of things. Alot of skills are just better or worse reskins of other skills

That being said, as of right now they do at least keep things from being the exact same meta set up, set piece for set piece, skill for skill. Hopefully in the future they will return to being more unique in terms of the play style they allow for. Balancing by standards is probably my biggest complain for the combat team over the last few years. It really does feel like they just stripped out all the uniqueness from the classes and that classes now just give us better or worse tools to arrive at the same destination as other class.

lyx10679

In my honest opinion, it all has something to do with lore. If there were no classes, then you will have to bring up the question "Why do the NPC's have classes?" and "Why can't I be like Mannimarco or Lyris Titanborn?" If there were no classes in a MMORPG, then at least a big majority of people will stick with some semblance of a class (i.e. warrior or sorcerer). We will all still at MINIMAL fall in a "class" of some sort that deals either deals damage using physical force or using magicka. So if you we get rid of classes, we have to remove them from the NPC. We could say Mannimarco "the guy who uses magicka" but then in my mind I would wonder what specific class he is sorcerer, necromancer, battlemage, etc?

In my opinion, class defines a set of skills that makes a character or NPC unique. The class defines how you will experience the lore. Traditionally, a nightblade will play the Dark Brotherhood story line. That is not to say that all other archetypes are excluded from experiencing the same lore. People will still pick and choose a skill set that fits their "ideal" class. I think Skyrim tried to give freedom to the player but we still picked and chose our skills based on a class archetype. In ESO, it would be easier to just define basic classes archetypes so that people won't have to go wild about it. That's my two Septims!

Psiion

Greetings all,

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