Do we really need classes in ESO?

Davor

Just hoping for a fun discussion here. There is no right or wrong answers, just opinions. Maybe I will even change mine.

I am wondering do we really need classes in ESO? After all, seeing how Skyrim has done it, I say there is no need for classes. Playing other games I see there are no classes as well, but just pick the skills you like.

Maybe I don't see it, maybe there is a good reason for having classes, but seeing how classes are being redone almost after every dlc or every other dlc, I don't understand why we still need classes. Why not pick the skills we want to use so we can really be the character we really want. After playing other games, I don't see why we need to be told how to play a game. Why does it have to be "this way" or "that way". Why not just let us choose the skill lines we want? For me that was one of the great things about Skyrim and other games. They don't "force" you to be a certain class and you can choose your "skill tree".

Maybe I am right. Most likely I am wrong. I guess it doesn't matter since it will not change. I am up for a good fun discussion, so like to read your opinions on the matter. Do you like classes? If so why. Think we shouldn't have classes? If so why.

MrBrownstone

For PvE, if you remove the classes, there will be exactly one best setup for everyone so we will have even less choices. Currently we need to bring many classes to group content to benefit from their passives fully and that creates diversity. Everyone will use the same setup without classes. Maybe you won't, but any player who cares about having the most out of their characters will be forced to.

For PvP, every class has strenghts and weaknesses and that makes combat more exciting because you know what your enemy is capable of and what you should/shouldn't do against them if you figure out their class. Otherwise the enemy will mostly be using the same build as you, maybe go play Counter-Strike if you want that.

You mentioned Skyrim but it's the first Elder Scrolls game that ditched classes afaik, all the previous ones had them. It did for the sake of simplicity, not a good direction. Even the class names in ESO are from the original Elder Scrolls games.

No, it would kill the fun. This is an rpg game and in rpg games, contrary to your opinion, you should specialize your character instead of having access to being a jack of all trades. A class system forces that.

Danikat

It's not just Skyrim. I don't really remember how Arena and Daggerfall did it but Morrowind and Oblivion didn't really have classes either. One option for initially setting up your character was to choose a class, but it was more like a pre-set bundle of skills and attributes. It didn't actually lock you out of anything and you also had the option to make a custom combination out of any of the skill lines in the game, and could pick up any additional ones you wanted later on as well.

The problem with that system in an MMO is it doesn't matter too much if you find a massively over-powered combination to play in a single-player game because the only person you're affecting is yourself - if it's boring you have the choice to change it. Whereas in an MMO if one combination out-performs everything else then it can also ruin the experience for everyone else by making it difficult or impossible for them to contribute in PvE and being impossible to beat in PvP. Plus there's the whole meta-gaming thing where you'd then get the majority of players using that one combination and insisting everyone else should use it too.

I was going to point out that Ultima Online had that system (any combination of skills on any character) back when I played it. But between the fact that it was almost 20 years ago when MMOs were relatively new and that game did a lot of things which later proved to be bad ideas, and I was too young and casual to really know much about how most people played it (my sole priority was taming dragons) I don't think my experience in that game makes for a good comparison. But it has been done in MMOs, I'm just not sure if it worked well.

Davor

MrBrownstone wrote: »

For PvE, if you remove the classes, there will be exactly one best setup for everyone so we will have even less choices. Currently we need to bring many classes to group content to benefit from their passives fully and that creates diversity. Everyone will use the same setup without classes. Maybe you won't, but any player who cares about having the most out of their characters will be forced to.

Not saying you are wrong at all. Just trying to understand better. What do yo mean we will even have less choices? Many people have different styles or ways of playing. It would be just like we have now, where people on YouTube or what not say that this class needs to be played this way, that class needs to be played that way to get the best results.

So how is it any different from what we have now? I remember when Warden first came out, many people were saying it's the worst class, but yet many people found ways to have fun with that class and or make it work.

Just like now, when someone says, "what is the best class to play" we get so many different answers. So would it really be any different? If not, why would that be a bad thing? Maybe because I play solo I don't see the "everyone is the same".

For PvP, every class has strenghts and weaknesses and that makes combat more exciting because you know what your enemy is capable of and what you should/shouldn't do against them if you figure out their class. Otherwise the enemy will mostly be using the same build as you, maybe go play Counter-Strike if you want that.

Never played Counter-Strike or even know how it works. I didn't see about knowing the weaknesses and strengths about knowing what is a certain class is. Great point. Thing is, wouldn't it be better not knowing? This way someone has to build for "everyone" and not just against what most people are playing?

Again, I don't PvP so maybe this is why I am not seeing it. Great points made, made me to see a different view now.

You mentioned Skyrim but it's the first Elder Scrolls game that ditched classes afaik, all the previous ones had them. It did for the sake of simplicity, not a good direction. Even the class names are from the original Elder Scrolls games.

I believe outside of Arena, while there were classes, we can still choose what skills we wanted. I guess that is why I am thinking that ESO should not have any classes, since all games from Daggerfall to Oblivion, I never played a class and always made mine so it can be set to the best of my playstyle.

I guess that is why I had a hard time with ESO. All other TES games had many classes and except Arena we can make "our" class anything. So in effect we got to choose what we specialize in and what not. We make our own classes. Would be nice if we could do that in ESO as well.

No, it would kill the fun. This is an rpg game and in rpg games, contrary to your opinion, you should specialize your character instead of having access to being a jack of all trades. A class system forces that.

This is where I disagree. I respect your opinion, not saying you are wrong, but I believe it could add more fun. As other games have shown me, I have more fun playing how I want, instead of being told how to play a certain way. I guess that is what ESO thrown me a curve and had a hard time adjusting. Play how you want like TES games have done.

Especially in a rpg game, playing how you want is the most fun. Why is my mage not able to cast fire balls but has to use electricity spells most of the times?

I am sure we can have great debates, of how a class should be. I am sure we would have many differing options of what a Warden should be, or what a Sorcerer should be etc. For me a Sorcerer shouldn't be limited to the spells he/she has right now.
It should have more varying spells. Also I don't see how a sorcerer should be using bow/bow combos. After all, he/she is a sorcerer right?

While it's great and awesome we can have diverse builds in ESO like the bow/bow sorcerer I keep thinking, we can have even more diverse builds by not having classes.

Not here to change your mind at all. You bring up good points, just love a good discussion.

Mythreindeer

I have thought about this idea but figured it would be far too easy build a super tank or glass nuclear cannon and pretty much ruin the game. This is why others suggest it would lessen choices and diversity.

CaptainVenom

I'd love if we didn't have classes. However, ZOS would need to make some heavy balances so people won't run just one kind of meta build. Every skill should be interesting to get and use in combat.

Juhasow

Stopped taking this thread seriously after seeing the sentence "After all, seeing how Skyrim has done it, I say there is no need for classes".

Spawniaq

our biggest problem at the moment and really doable after too many years, greatest idea ( wondered Nicolas Cage Meme here). unbelievable ..

AcadianPaladin

I don't like the class restrictions and would be happy without them.

As for the concept, 'If you get rid of (pick a restriction), then everyone would flock to the best combo and play exactly the same character,' I've never bought that. After all, if the supermeta most effective combo today is x class with y skills using z gear, why is not every player using that exact same combo now?

Artim_X

Yes, we do.

A game where there is one BiS setup for PvP and PvE is rubbish. Sadly proc nonsense seems to already be making that the case in PvP land.

craybest

stamina builds are already pretty much the same no matter the class.
if not a no class system, a way to change to another class would be nice. it resets all your skill points in the previous class.

luen79rwb17_ESO

PVE-wise, all classes play mostly the same, same weapon skills, same meta sets. Class identity is just a couple of mechanic and visual gimmicks added to the character.

idk

MrBrownstone wrote: »

For PvE, if you remove the classes, there will be exactly one best setup for everyone so we will have even less choices. Currently we need to bring many classes to group content to benefit from their passives fully and that creates diversity. Everyone will use the same setup without classes. Maybe you won't, but any player who cares about having the most out of their characters will be forced to.

For PvP, every class has strenghts and weaknesses and that makes combat more exciting because you know what your enemy is capable of and what you should/shouldn't do against them if you figure out their class. Otherwise the enemy will mostly be using the same build as you, maybe go play Counter-Strike if you want that.

You mentioned Skyrim but it's the first Elder Scrolls game that ditched classes afaik, all the previous ones had them. It did for the sake of simplicity, not a good direction. Even the class names in ESO are from the original Elder Scrolls games.

No, it would kill the fun. This is an rpg game and in rpg games, contrary to your opinion, you should specialize your character instead of having access to being a jack of all trades. A class system forces that.

This sums it up well. Gameplay would become boring without having some diversity.

Ackwalan

Comparing class balance in a single player game and multiple player game doesn't work. In a single player game, building content around a single build is how it is supposed work, the exact opposite for a multiple player game.

BXR_Lonestar

Classes make an RPG have more longevity. If there weren't classes, you would only need 3 total characters - Tank, Healer, and a DPS of your choice. Maybe 4, if you wanted a DPS in each flavor (stam or mag).

The problem with ESO and its classes is that class identity has really been eroded over the last several balancing patches as they try to re-order the combat system. They've really tried to "standardize" things, and my hope has been that this will all make more sense when they release the changes to the champion point system. However, I'm skeptical.

Vlad9425

I like the idea of classes, it’s very cool to specialise in a particular play style. Also you mention Skyrim but honestly even without classes the majority of people would pick a certain play style and focus on that ie Stealth archer which is essentially like classes.

Magdalina

Skyrim (and other Scrolls titles) is a single player game. ESO is an MMO. This adds the layer of competitiveness and pushes people to optimize their builds, meaning if there is an optimal build, a lot of people will run it. Sure there will be some who like experimenting and some who just want to RP or whatever who will run whatever they think looks nice, but this will pose severe limitation in more competitive content for them. So basically if not for classes we'd have 3 optimal builds, 1 for tank, 1 for heals, 1 for dps (well 2 for dps, 1 for stam, 1 for mag) and that's it. Now there's at least some variety as some classes have what others lack and playing a known role in a new class can bring novelty to your game.

In a perfect world perhaps you could have completely open skill trees and still enough incentive for people to choose different builds to play with without feeling they're gimping yourself. But this world is not ESO, they'd have to pretty much re-make the whole combat system from scratch to give this even a slim hope of happening.

josiahva

MrBrownstone wrote: »

For PvE, if you remove the classes, there will be exactly one best setup for everyone so we will have even less choices. Currently we need to bring many classes to group content to benefit from their passives fully and that creates diversity. Everyone will use the same setup without classes. Maybe you won't, but any player who cares about having the most out of their characters will be forced to.

For PvP, every class has strenghts and weaknesses and that makes combat more exciting because you know what your enemy is capable of and what you should/shouldn't do against them if you figure out their class. Otherwise the enemy will mostly be using the same build as you, maybe go play Counter-Strike if you want that.

You mentioned Skyrim but it's the first Elder Scrolls game that ditched classes afaik, all the previous ones had them. It did for the sake of simplicity, not a good direction. Even the class names in ESO are from the original Elder Scrolls games.

No, it would kill the fun. This is an rpg game and in rpg games, contrary to your opinion, you should specialize your character instead of having access to being a jack of all trades. A class system forces that.

This is false....at least in how it pertains to the OPs question. If you dont have classes to begin with you don't need false "diversity" which is really just another way of saying that you want X people to run X skills, see what I mean? So...you want the group to have access to major brutality and major sorcery right? You can do it this way:

A. Hey Josh, bring your magicka DK so you can run igneous weapons.

Or you can do it this way....

B. Hey Josh, make sure you slot igneous weapons.

There is NO DIFFERENCE, either way, in this example Josh is going to run igneous weapons...meanwhile Karen is still going to run frost cloak, whether she plays a "warden" or not, etc etc etc(the skills picked are just random examples in how they relate to group play).

In the end, going classless will open up raids to MORE people. A lot of people only play one character...giving that character access to skills they may not otherwise have opens up potential slots for them.

The argument than only one build is BIS for that type of content is completely irrelevant BECAUSE THAT IS HOW IT ALREADY IS. Going classless doesn't change that one bit...all it would do is say 7 DPS need to run these 6 skills and the other 4 you can run whatever you want...while 2 DPS run these 4 skills and can run whatever they want for the other 6. THIS IS HOW IT ALREADY IS FOR TANKS AND HEALERS to a far greater degree than DPS...so its rather hypocritical to use classes as a way of avoiding running whatever is best for the group when you expect tanks and healers to do so without question.

Besides, that whole argument only applies to end game trials groups...the vast majority of people in this game run whatever they want to run regardless of whether its BIS or not...going classless would not change that one bit....in other words, just because it would restrict score pushing groups in their builds is NOT a valid reason to come out against the idea.

omnidoh

Nah, we've never needed classes, but this is ZOS's first MMO, so they wanted to lure prospective customers to their platform by creating familiarity, so classes were introduced.

In classic Elder Scrolls, there were no classes.

Miszou

I quite like the idea of multi-classing, like Titan Quest.

Basically, you pick a class at the start, then at some point after you level up a bit, you can pick another class and become something completely different. Titan Quest had an excellent implementation of this, imho, and each combination of classes had a unique name.

So, while there are still classes, you could mix and match between two, if you wanted. It might make for some interesting builds, and there would still enough different class combos to maintain diversity.

Lord_Wrath

Ive always been fond of the idea. Since launch ive played as one character because life is busy - i do not have time to create other characters and max them out. Ive tried but after a few weeks and having so much to accomplish to be up to par as my main, I couldnt find the point in spending all that time. Why not do away with classes and allow skills to define your role? Of course, this would require intense rebalancing of everything, but its possible.

Muttsmutt

MrBrownstone wrote: »

Everyone will use the same setup without classes.

that's it. that's the thread. everybody go home.
a classless game works for singleplayer, where meta just isn't a thing, because it is non-competitive.

Miszou wrote: »

I quite like the idea of multi-classing, like Titan Quest.

big agree, i absolutely love what TQ did.
though i can't see how they'd be able to properly implement such a thing in an MMO.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

I personally disliked Skyrim the most out of all Elder Scrolls games, and it was principally because it had lost almost all classic rpg elements. One of them was the over simplification of characters, the classless system, where you could just be a god of everything with no drawbacks. As others have said, this simply doesn't work outside of single player either. Mid to endgame would be everyone running the same build for maximum damage, and right now this game already is struggling severely with class identity. That would kill all diversity well and truly, and eliminate the need or want for multiple characters. If anything, more strict classes would freshen up the game immensely in my opinion. Truly diverse classes that play one not anything like the other and are all fun in their own right, bringing something unique to the table.

Eiregirl

Not a good idea in a multiplayer game.

Andre_Noir

How will they sell necro, warden and a next class then ?

idk

Miszou wrote: »

I quite like the idea of multi-classing, like Titan Quest.

Basically, you pick a class at the start, then at some point after you level up a bit, you can pick another class and become something completely different. Titan Quest had an excellent implementation of this, imho, and each combination of classes had a unique name.

So, while there are still classes, you could mix and match between two, if you wanted. It might make for some interesting builds, and there would still enough different class combos to maintain diversity.

I would suggest AoC has a much more interesting design for main class/subclass builds and it is from the perspective of an MMORPG.

p00tx

Removing classes would just homogenize the game for everyone but the roleplayer community and would very likely make it extremely boring to anyone trying to play at the top end. I know the common response to this will likely be "Well so what? That's only a small part of the community and we shouldn't be trying to appease them". Keep in mind though, it's the top end players who test and find the bugs (that get ignored usually), and who figure out how skills and items work and they're the top streamers. We do it because we benefit the most from having the game work at peak performance. Disregard that part of the community and you remove any incentives the company has to fix combat bugs or balance issues. The game has to remain interesting enough to keep the attention of all communities, from the lvl 3 in prisoners rags fumbling around in starter zones, to housing fanatics, to crafters, to roleplayers, pvpers, and all the way up to the competitive pve sweats.

SpearofBitterMercy

*cough* class change tokens *cough*

barney2525

I only need glasses to read the fine print ...

you did say 'glasses', right ?

Monte_Cristo

I'd prefer if the classes were removed, but the 18 class skill lines were still there. But you can only put points in any 3 of them. Once you've put a point in a 3rd, you can't use any others unless you respec. It's give us more variety. Ardent Flame, Storm Calling and Winters Embrace to play as an elemental wizard. Or Animal Companions, Daedric Summoning and Grave Lord to be a summoner.

barney2525

Sooooo ... you want to hand pick the 3 specific class skill lines we want a character to have ... so we can mix and match the passives that go along with them .... and the Ultimates

One combination to rule them all I guess

Why does this sound like a bad idea to me ?

IMHO