Anyone else upset over dealing with Thews of the Harbinger builds?

ArchMikem

https://eso-sets.com/set/thews-of-the-harbinger

Health stacked Necromancer Tanks using this set have been an absolute nightmare. I don't know what the intended counter to this is supposed to be other than throwing bodies at it to overwhelm and accepting the sacrifices.

And to those of you actually running the set, I bet you're laughing the entire time you're playing. I'd do the same thing, holding block, watching people effectively kill themselves in a futile struggle.

Jaraal

Just wait until they start stacking it with the new Radiant Bastion set!

ccfeeling

Nerf the set or nec ultimate or both of them ?

WoppaBoem

Jaraal wrote: »

Just wait until they start stacking it with the new Radiant Bastion set!

man oh man, those set together with malakath brilliant effort to destroy the game. Solution to the lag all stand there holding block. This is such bad design for pvp, its sad the direction of this game.

BohnT2

The solution is not attacking them, they can't do anything if you don't attack them.
Even PvErs are able to stop damaging depending on mechanics so you should be too

Firstmep

Not really.

Heavy dot dmg can eat thru Harbinger builds, altho it takes a while.

Honestly most ppl dont even use harbinger correctly, they just stand there and expect to get attacked.

When in reality you should be loaded with ccs, snares and root to annony the heck out of ppl, so they actually want to attack you.

techyeshic

BohnT2 wrote: »

The solution is not attacking them, they can't do anything if you don't attack them.
Even PvErs are able to stop damaging depending on mechanics so you should be too

You haven ran into large groups just standing on flags with this?

I think this gets me on all these procs. Its encourage turtling up and letting procsbdo the work, then stacking in the largest groups possible. PvDoor so if you get resistance, you're already in flags and avoid massive counter siege.

Urzigurumash

I say leave it and buff Oblivion damage, including Knight Slayer. I think in terms of BGs though where it's not difficult to overwhelm them with DOTs. CP makes it easier to survive long enough for multiple procs of Earthgore, Wyrd Tree, etc.

Dunning_Kruger

BohnT2 wrote: »

The solution is not attacking them, they can't do anything if you don't attack them.
Even PvErs are able to stop damaging depending on mechanics so you should be too

The problem is the targeting in this game is absolutely dog ***. So stop attacking someone who is sitting in a group of targets that you could kill means you inevitably end up attacking them unwittingly. Then you take a huge chunk of your health in thews damage. In Cyro it’s w/e annoying and also adds to the problem of more builds that don’t die and the ever shifting direction of tanks that don’t die and fights that drag on. In bgs; it’s going to kill any bgs with objectives. Most group queues sit balled up; put a thews build in there with someone who knows how to play and you effectively have a group you cannot pressure without taking thorns damage that rivals actual dps builds and they can’t die. But I understand that The forums won’t believe this doesn’t seem to over perform seeing as they also say “crimson isn’t OP just hit W 4head”.

Defilted

All you have to do is ignore them. Never attack them in Goliath form of you feel the need to attack them. Kill all other players before dealing with these players. Unless there is a great player out there with this build that can use it in a way that makes it effective , 99% of the ones I have come across can just be ignored.

NordSwordnBoard

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I say leave it and buff Oblivion damage, including Knight Slayer. I think in terms of BGs though where it's not difficult to overwhelm them with DOTs. CP makes it easier to survive long enough for multiple procs of Earthgore, Wyrd Tree, etc.

Agree about Knight Slayer, especially Lightning staff as a solution. I thought if these thewsers became a real problem in PvP I would try some KS Oblivion build as a direct counter. I just haven't seen enough of an impact from thews to warrant doing so. I admit I run a bunch of DoT and AoE damage, so its definitely easier for me to deal with right now.

@ArchMikem - Direct counter for a magic user: wear sloads, knight slayer, oblivion enchants, and lightning/resto heavy attack them to death if you want scissors to cut through their paper. I'm not sure about counters for stam regarding channels or using less direct damage.

Maybe not the place to ask, lol... but - Has anybody worn VD with thews, and blown up a zerg (or part of it) with their own damage? Would the VD proc from the thews damage?

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Lolz I tried on my necromancer and felt like I had no sustain. Then I switched the great to my Warden and lolz boi, did I top battleground leaderboards and kills. 1.2 mil dmg and 500k healing. It's pretty ridiculous and I was laughing the whole time. The counter is "damage over time" abilities, which can't be blocked. I believe aoe as well. The best solution is finding out who has it on, marking them, then eliminating their allies. Pick your targets carefully. Sucks on relic matches though and he's at the base haha

Jaraal

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Maybe not the place to ask, lol... but - Has anybody worn VD with thews, and blown up a zerg (or part of it) with their own damage? Would the VD proc from the thews damage?

I'm waiting to see the block bombers stacking the new Explosive Rebuke set with Vicious Death jewels and weapons. Since the tank meta will be thriving for at least the next quarter, may as well throw tank bombers into the mix!

Waffennacht

In BGs I just ignore them when I can. If I cant I apply pressure then back off, then reapply pressure, etc until their stamina is drained. Unless pressured by one of their teammates they cant kill you without you proccing thews on yourself; you should be able to maintain the flow as you see fit.

In non death match.... Meh non death match

ArchMikem

BohnT2 wrote: »

The solution is not attacking them, they can't do anything if you don't attack them.
Even PvErs are able to stop damaging depending on mechanics so you should be too

That would be a viable course of action, if said Tanks don't already group up with Bombers and high burst damage builds using the Guard tether on each other.

Charon_on_Vacation

ArchMikem wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The solution is not attacking them, they can't do anything if you don't attack them.
Even PvErs are able to stop damaging depending on mechanics so you should be too

That would be a viable course of action, if said Tanks don't already group up with Bombers and high burst damage builds using the Guard tether on each other.

so you agree that its combining different builds that is the problem, not just one set?
maybe the game is supposed to work that?
building efficient teams might be intended?
i mean, if you want to nerf all overperforming sets, thats fine, but thats a totally different thing then.

techyeshic

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The solution is not attacking them, they can't do anything if you don't attack them.
Even PvErs are able to stop damaging depending on mechanics so you should be too

That would be a viable course of action, if said Tanks don't already group up with Bombers and high burst damage builds using the Guard tether on each other.

so you agree that its combining different builds that is the problem, not just one set?
maybe the game is supposed to work that?
building efficient teams might be intended?
i mean, if you want to nerf all overperforming sets, thats fine, but thats a totally different thing then.

What sort of nonsensical logic is this? They are saying its that set. People say to just ignore users as there is not really a course of action other than to not engage. Not engaging is not a counter, its not participating.

DUTCH_REAPER

Please stop saying ignore them. Because when there are 3 guys with 4 siege each trying to get into a keep and these Harb guys just Waltz out and continuously burn siege bc u can’t do anything against them is stupid. Where is the counter to them zos?

Recapitated

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The solution is not attacking them, they can't do anything if you don't attack them.
Even PvErs are able to stop damaging depending on mechanics so you should be too

That would be a viable course of action, if said Tanks don't already group up with Bombers and high burst damage builds using the Guard tether on each other.

so you agree that its combining different builds that is the problem, not just one set?
maybe the game is supposed to work that?
building efficient teams might be intended?
i mean, if you want to nerf all overperforming sets, thats fine, but thats a totally different thing then.

Depends what you mean by overperforming.

Of course building is part of the game and that's true both on the individual and group level. But what happens when everyone catches on to the fact that that strong combo exist? If it's defensive every encounter turns into a pillow fight; if it's offensive it's just a matter of getting the first strike and waiting for the dominos to fall.

Theignson

Here are some ideas:

Knight slayer hits them very hard especially in goliath form. If you are outdamaging their Thews proc with every hit they eventually die.

Throw a Templar eclipse on them when they go into Goliath ands sometimes they die very fast. All that outgoing damage hits them and its a thing of beauty

Keep vigor up when you hit them. If you hit them harder than they hit you , you will win.

Dont do your burst combo, that is how you can die. Have a bunch of people putting dots on them at a steady pace

With dots, you only get hit by Thews on the first tick, not the subsequent ones, So load them with dots.

Thews only works when they are blocking. So stun and fear them and they will die fast. an mDK with talons/fossilize can really hurt them

Urzigurumash

Theignson wrote: »

With dots, you only get hit by Thews on the first tick, not the subsequent ones, So load them with dots.

Only DOTs which begin with a Direct Damage - Noxious Breath and Venomous Claw for example - should proc Thews, DOTs without a Direct Damage - Soul Trap and Fletcher Infection for example - should not proc Thews. Right? If it can't be blocked, it won't proc Thews. The old tooltip for Thews used to state "when you block direct damage", but I assume it was taken out because it's redundant.

But yeah you're right, you can take them down 1v1, even with only Direct Damage, if you can outdamage them, you just need really high damage.

Overall my impression in Xbox NA BGs is that Thews builds are a real pain for Solo Queue Land Grab games, depending on team composition they're insurmountable, but once we're playing with coordinated and optimized groups, I expect them to be less of a hindrance in Land Grab. We will see to what extent Thews builds are useful in a coordinated group in Death Match. Right now in Solo Queue, if you face a good ranged player who knows to hide behind the Thews tank, and your team is all Melee builds with a focus on Direct Damage, it's definitely a challenge. As for Relic and Chaosball, I think Thews is suboptimal for a tank, but maybe it just doesn't fit the way I play those modes.

ArchMikem

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

The solution is not attacking them, they can't do anything if you don't attack them.
Even PvErs are able to stop damaging depending on mechanics so you should be too

That would be a viable course of action, if said Tanks don't already group up with Bombers and high burst damage builds using the Guard tether on each other.

so you agree that its combining different builds that is the problem, not just one set?
maybe the game is supposed to work that?
building efficient teams might be intended?
i mean, if you want to nerf all overperforming sets, thats fine, but thats a totally different thing then.

Previous duos or groups playing that combo were actually defeatable or at least created a stalemate. What Thews is doing is actually making these groups win. Every time. Because people can't coordinate or even just realize what's going on.

Goregrinder

I fight them in BG's with my godwolf build and they're never a problem for me, can't speak for other people though.

Starlight_Whisper

Don't nerf it just make a skill counter for it. I am tried of sets becoming trash

Recapitated

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Don't nerf it just make a skill counter for it. I am tried of sets becoming trash

Skill counters are not a good way of balancing. You've only got 10 slots, people aren't going to waste one of them to deal with Thews, then another to deal with WW, then another to deal with proc sets etc. etc.

Skills should be versatile. Counters should be about counterplay. Otherwise fights are pretty much completely determined in advance by your build.

Dunning_Kruger

It’s too bad they nerfed fury and original seventh legion when all people had to do was just stop hitting me so I wouldn’t do damage

Xvorg

ArchMikem wrote: »

https://eso-sets.com/set/thews-of-the-harbinger

Health stacked Necromancer Tanks using this set have been an absolute nightmare. I don't know what the intended counter to this is supposed to be other than throwing bodies at it to overwhelm and accepting the sacrifices.

And to those of you actually running the set, I bet you're laughing the entire time you're playing. I'd do the same thing, holding block, watching people effectively kill themselves in a futile struggle.

I haven't been playing in a while, but what about a blazeplar with that set and Varen's Legacy?

Nirntrotter

DK wings died for this.

techyeshic

Dunning_Kruger wrote: »

It’s too bad they nerfed fury and original seventh legion when all people had to do was just stop hitting me so I wouldn’t do damage

I was just thinking some of these sets remind me of 7th before they put a CD on the heal. Or how many "thorn" abilities that got nerfed.

hexentb16_ESO

ArchMikem wrote: »

https://eso-sets.com/set/thews-of-the-harbinger

Health stacked Necromancer Tanks using this set have been an absolute nightmare. I don't know what the intended counter to this is supposed to be other than throwing bodies at it to overwhelm and accepting the sacrifices.

And to those of you actually running the set, I bet you're laughing the entire time you're playing. I'd do the same thing, holding block, watching people effectively kill themselves in a futile struggle.

Thews builds are really easy to deal with. You just need to stop and plan for a second instead of going in guns blazing. This is why I like proc sets and sets like thews in the pvp meta so much. It forces people to adapt or lose. Pvp was so boring when everyone was just stat set stacking and using the same strategies.

For Thews builds for example, all you need to do is wait until their ultimate runs out, keep using CCs, and self-heal through the damage you take. I use a thews build for my necromancer too and they're not nearly as bad as you make them seem. Heck, you can even just ignore them since they're basically useless by themselves and hit like a wet blanket.

Waffennacht

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Please stop saying ignore them. Because when there are 3 guys with 4 siege each trying to get into a keep and these Harb guys just Waltz out and continuously burn siege bc u can’t do anything against them is stupid. Where is the counter to them zos?

Stopping playing OW?