Do you think Minor Lifesteal change is good idea?

Sinolai

No

This skill offered so much flexibility for the group. Important buffs like SPC/Minor Thoughness/Gossamer/Sentinel of Rukugamz/Life saving Earthgore procs could be triggered without personally running around healing every person who needs them and it could be equipped by anyone if eg. a tank was running full support sets or if the only warden in the group was a dd.

Sinolai

No

I like how 1/3 of the "Yes" votes are misclics

Olupajmibanan

Yes

Jeremy wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Minor lifesteal no longer procs anything that requires "on heal" condition. This includes Minor Toughness, SPC etc. Nobody complained about this... Do you believe this is a good change?

It's a weird change and if I had to guess, is probably a bug of some kind.

Sorry for the "Yes". Should have been "NOOO" but miss click happens.

It's not a bug, the devs confirmed that the change is intended. But hadn't included it in the patch notes and also did not provide developer comment or any other sort of explanation besides this useless sentence: "procs do not proc procs". They knew what would happen if they included it in the patch notes, because they are the only ones that seemingly like this terrible change. The change is very well intended as well as the decision to purposely not include it in the patch notes.

Jeremy

No

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

techprince wrote: »

Minor lifesteal no longer procs anything that requires "on heal" condition. This includes Minor Toughness, SPC etc. Nobody complained about this... Do you believe this is a good change?

It's a weird change and if I had to guess, is probably a bug of some kind.

Sorry for the "Yes". Should have been "NOOO" but miss click happens.

It's not a bug, the devs confirmed that the change is intended. But hadn't included it in the patch notes and also did not provide developer comment or any other sort of explanation besides this useless sentence: "procs do not proc procs". They knew what would happen if they included it in the patch notes, because they are the only ones that seemingly like this terrible change. The change is very well intended as well as the decision to purposely not include it in the patch notes.

Appreciate the information, but why would Minor Life Steal triggering heal procs be an example of procs proccing procs? That's a lot of procs. haha

It's the heal from Minor Life Steal that is causing the proc right? Not an actual proc. So what's the difference in say Minor Life Steal proccing Major Courage or Rapid Regen? Just two different heals proccing the same effect, right?

KhajiitLivesMatter

No

was this even intended ? didnt saw it in patchnotes
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BillE
@ZOS_KaiSchober
@ZOS_Adrikoth
@ZOS_AntonioP

DTStormfox

Yes

I don't think the change is bad at all, in fact, it seems very logical because you (the player) do not heal the other players using Minor Lifesteal. It is the status effect itself that heals the other players. Minor Lifesteal is a negative status effect like Major Fracture. You (the player) don't reduce the target's armour but the status effect does, you (the player) merely apply the status effect.

KotL75rus

No

It is hidden change so it is a bug and should be fixed.

Olupajmibanan

Yes

Sorry for the "Yes". Should have been "NOOO" but miss click happens.

NefasQ posted a message on discord that the devs confirmed this is an intended change.

KhajiitLivesMatter

No

DTStormfox wrote: »

I don't think the change is bad at all, in fact, it seems very logical because you (the player) do not heal the other players using Minor Lifesteal. It is the status effect itself that heals the other players. Minor Lifesteal is a negative status effect like Major Fracture. You (the player) don't reduce the target's armour but the status effect does, you (the player) merely apply the status effect.

yea and u apply the status effect so u are the source of healing - if u wouldnt use the skill the player wouldnt get healed - so its logical that it counts as your healing

the1andonlyskwex

No

DTStormfox wrote: »

I don't think the change is bad at all, in fact, it seems very logical because you (the player) do not heal the other players using Minor Lifesteal. It is the status effect itself that heals the other players. Minor Lifesteal is a negative status effect like Major Fracture. You (the player) don't reduce the target's armour but the status effect does, you (the player) merely apply the status effect.

I actually agree with you that the change makes logical sense. The new behavior really is more in line with what I would naively expect, based on the description in-game. That said, this change totally breaks the way that most people have been using minor lifesteal for years (using it more for the on heal procs than for the actual healing).

Beyond just breaking a lot of existing builds, the fact that ZOS also didn't bother to explicitly spell out and explain the change in their patch notes is really frustrating.

Jeremy

No

DTStormfox wrote: »

I don't think the change is bad at all, in fact, it seems very logical because you (the player) do not heal the other players using Minor Lifesteal. It is the status effect itself that heals the other players. Minor Lifesteal is a negative status effect like Major Fracture. You (the player) don't reduce the target's armour but the status effect does, you (the player) merely apply the status effect.

So what about a circle I put on the ground that heals players if they move into it?

Isn't that like placing an effect on the ground that other players have to move into to get the effect? You the player aren't directly healing them but the circle effect on the ground is?

karekiz

No

Hey guys.

At least something is "working as intended" by the devs in this patch

DTStormfox

Yes

Jeremy wrote: »

So what about a circle I put on the ground that heals players if they move into it?

Isn't that like placing an effect on the ground that other players have to move into to get the effect? You the player aren't directly healing them but the circle effect on the ground is?

The circle you put on the ground with an ability such as Illustrious Healing is not considered a status effect. Minor lifesteal basically is a negative status effect (debuff) for the target player affected. Similar to e.g. Major Fracture, Minor Lifesteal can only be applied by one person at the time to the same target player.

Olupajmibanan

Yes

DTStormfox wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

So what about a circle I put on the ground that heals players if they move into it?

Isn't that like placing an effect on the ground that other players have to move into to get the effect? You the player aren't directly healing them but the circle effect on the ground is?

The circle you put on the ground with an ability such as Illustrious Healing is not considered a status effect. Minor lifesteal basically is a negative status effect (debuff) for the target player affected. Similar to e.g. Major Fracture, Minor Lifesteal can only be applied by one person at the time to the same target player.

Sorry for the "Yes", should have been "No".

You are wrong.
Firstly, multiple instances of Minor Lifesteal could be on the same target at once. We've been using this in our progression group because we have no warden healer so our warden tank was using Altar for the Minor Toughness and I, the templar healer, was using my Altar as well for the extra healing. Players were constantly getting Minor Toughness and also were healed by my Minor Lifesteal. That brings me to second point: my % healing modifiers are stronger than that of our warden tank, meaning that my Minor Lifesteal is stronger and players got healed by my Minor Lifesteal. This is supported even by Combat Metrics and Logs where anyone healing himself via Minor Lifesteal counted towards my healing. By your logic of a debuff, it should have counted towards each players personal healing.

Red_Feather

No

It feels like in order to solve some obscure niche issue someone used a sledgehammer that totaled a noticeable chunk of the building.

Jeremy

No

DTStormfox wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

So what about a circle I put on the ground that heals players if they move into it?

Isn't that like placing an effect on the ground that other players have to move into to get the effect? You the player aren't directly healing them but the circle effect on the ground is?

The circle you put on the ground with an ability such as Illustrious Healing is not considered a status effect. Minor lifesteal basically is a negative status effect (debuff) for the target player affected. Similar to e.g. Major Fracture, Minor Lifesteal can only be applied by one person at the time to the same target player.

Ok, fair enough. Then what about Drain Health poisons that put a poison status effect on enemies that allows players to heal themselves by attacking poisoned enemies? It operates pretty much exactly like Minor Life Steal does. Yet it seems to proc off healing. I just tested it with the Troll King set.

Recapitated

Why does it matter whether it's technically a status effect or a heal? The game doesn't become more enjoyable to play just because it's logical on paper.

Is the game improved by requiring procs-on-heals to be triggered by dedicated healers? Figure out the answer, make minor lifesteal have the effect that corresponds with the answer, and change the wording to make it clear whether or not Minor Lifesteal is a heal.

DTStormfox

Yes

Jeremy wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

So what about a circle I put on the ground that heals players if they move into it?

Isn't that like placing an effect on the ground that other players have to move into to get the effect? You the player aren't directly healing them but the circle effect on the ground is?

The circle you put on the ground with an ability such as Illustrious Healing is not considered a status effect. Minor lifesteal basically is a negative status effect (debuff) for the target player affected. Similar to e.g. Major Fracture, Minor Lifesteal can only be applied by one person at the time to the same target player.

Ok, fair enough. Then what about Drain Health poisons that put a poison status effect on enemies that allows players to heal themselves by attacking poisoned enemies? It operates pretty much exactly like Minor Life Steal does. Yet it seems to proc off healing. I just tested it with the Troll King set.

I don't know, ask ZOS why they treat different status effects differently. For example, Purge and cleanse tooltips state that they remove all negative effects. This implies only negative status effects but low and behold, these abilities also remove damage over time effects. The only conclusion I can find is that there is a lot of inconsistency on how status effects and other effects are treated.

DTStormfox

Yes

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

You are wrong.
Firstly, multiple instances of Minor Lifesteal could be on the same target at once. We've been using this in our progression group because we have no warden healer so our warden tank was using Altar for the Minor Toughness and I, the templar healer, was using my Altar as well for the extra healing. Players were constantly getting Minor Toughness and also were healed by my Minor Lifesteal.

If that is the case, then I am indeed wrong about that.

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

That brings me to second point: my % healing modifiers are stronger than that of our warden tank, meaning that my Minor Lifesteal is stronger and players got healed by my Minor Lifesteal. This is supported even by Combat Metrics and Logs where anyone healing himself via Minor Lifesteal counted towards my healing. By your logic of a debuff, it should have counted towards each players personal healing.

Good point. However, some add-ons that track buffs and debuffs treat Minor Lifesteal as a debuff (e.g. Foundry Tactical Combat). So according to your line of reasoning, my claim that Minor Lifesteal is a debuff status effect is also true.

Olupajmibanan

Yes

DTStormfox wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

That brings me to second point: my % healing modifiers are stronger than that of our warden tank, meaning that my Minor Lifesteal is stronger and players got healed by my Minor Lifesteal. This is supported even by Combat Metrics and Logs where anyone healing himself via Minor Lifesteal counted towards my healing. By your logic of a debuff, it should have counted towards each players personal healing.

Good point. However, some add-ons that track buffs and debuffs treat Minor Lifesteal as a debuff (e.g. Foundry Tactical Combat). So according to your line of reasoning, my claim that Minor Lifesteal is a debuff status effect is also true.

Sorry for the "Yes", should have been "No".

I'd say that Logs are above all add-ons since Logs are built-in non-thirdparty game feature. And logs say that any healing from Minor Lifesteal counts towards healing of the Minor Lifesteal applier.

Good example is Purifying Light spell. It also appears in enemy debuffs just as Minor Lifesteal, yet it heals players and indeed proc sets. By the logic of a debuff, Purifying Light should not proc sets, but we can all agree that's a non-sense, just as the case of Minor Lifesteal.

xaraan

No

No, because it's not a proc in the same way.

Procs as most players think of them just go off as you do other stuff you are doing anyway (like damage shooting out of a set because you are already doing your rotation you'd do with or without that set on), for this you have to actually cast a skill to put this effect on someone. You have to put the skill on your bar wasting valuable bar space (one of the cornerstones of zos' small active bars) and use skill casts to keep the effect up.

This is dangerous territory because A LOT of skills actually "proc" based of conditions created later based on the skill after casting it (or even passively just by slotting it). But IMO if you have to slot and cast a skill to create the proc condition, then it's not the same as a proc gear set.

It's also a pretty big change to not have been more open about during PTS.

Jeremy

No

DTStormfox wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

So what about a circle I put on the ground that heals players if they move into it?

Isn't that like placing an effect on the ground that other players have to move into to get the effect? You the player aren't directly healing them but the circle effect on the ground is?

The circle you put on the ground with an ability such as Illustrious Healing is not considered a status effect. Minor lifesteal basically is a negative status effect (debuff) for the target player affected. Similar to e.g. Major Fracture, Minor Lifesteal can only be applied by one person at the time to the same target player.

Ok, fair enough. Then what about Drain Health poisons that put a poison status effect on enemies that allows players to heal themselves by attacking poisoned enemies? It operates pretty much exactly like Minor Life Steal does. Yet it seems to proc off healing. I just tested it with the Troll King set.

I don't know, ask ZOS why they treat different status effects differently. For example, Purge and cleanse tooltips state that they remove all negative effects. This implies only negative status effects but low and behold, these abilities also remove damage over time effects. The only conclusion I can find is that there is a lot of inconsistency on how status effects and other effects are treated.

Alright. I was just wanting to show there isn't really a logical consistency as to why Minor Life Steal shouldn't activate healing procs. That's why I thought it might have been a bug. But if the developers have spoken up on discord and said otherwise, I guess it's not.