Moral Values

Khallarion

VaranisArano wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Yeah, I have seen PUG leaders definitely leading lambs to the slaughter, but it is pretty obvious and time to drop group when you see it happen. Sadly, most people just stay in the group regardless of the fact the leader was definitely working for the other faction.. but thats their choice to stay and get streamrolled at every turn.

This is pretty weird to think people are doing this. Thread should be closed. Poster needs to take a break from the game probably.

Eh, I've seen it before. Once.

Mind, it was a long time ago on the Vivec campaign when I was playing that campaign very regularly. When its the early hours of a new campaign, and there's some new player names never seen before or since gathering up all the EP PUGs and leading them repeatedly to their deaths at locations that are nonsensical or useless, while the regular EP zone generals are trying to give the sensible directions and being belittled by the PUG leader...its a reasonable inference that someone's trolling or trying to help the other team get out to an early lead.

That being said, I've only seen it once - its not the sort of tactic that gets used much because it takes a lot of effort. I mean, there are easier ways to troll than put in the effort to wrangle PUGs into a repeated slaughter when its your buddies that get the AP, you know? And there's no point in doing it to win the campaign in the faction locked campaign anymore because the troll can't swap back to the winning faction.

So while it can happen, its rare, and I'm not sure how ZOS is supposed to take action on it.

Indeed, there're easier ways to troll, or mislead people, and they also do that. As for winning the campaign, that's another story, another issue within this issue, and recently, specially this weekend, lots of people noticed when people were trolling with scroll they should bring to our side.

Even though they can't swap using the same account, they might use another one. I know people in the game that have more than four accounts, accounts their siblings don't use anymore, for example, or accounts that they bought on sale. There are just lots of ways to cheat.

As for what ZOS can do, I'm not sure. I heard people were banned 4 or 5 times already, and nothing more happened to them. I heard they might ban based on the heaviness of the infraction, being such ban for days or weeks, I'm not sure how it works. But even if they ban someone, it's not something practical.

I mean, of course we need some counter-measure based on people's infractions, but the only way to avoid that is fixing the gaps in the system, thus studying and releasing patches. That's something that requires time, effort, and of course, resources, and I'm not sure how much ZOS would like to invest.

They fixed several things, and are doing their best in order to fix other stuff, like the lag. Before, for example, I couldn't even play in Cyrodiil. As soon a zerg appeared, I was kicked out of the server, now though, after the tests, I was able to keep playing, my ping got better, and I managed to to this push for Emp.

I hope they bring some quality of life stuff like, for example;

1 - You can be Emperor just once;
2 - A limit of Alliance points earned each day, or each campaign;
3 - Limit the time you can stay in Cyrodiil, obligating players to take a break;
4 - Set timer for sieges, allowing them at specific times of the day, peak times;
5 - Kicking Emperor from campaign or resetting their points as soon they are dethroned;
6 - Allowing points by killing the same person once every half minutes or something like that.

Of course lots of people wouldn't agree with that, but playing like 12h a day, I could notice it's unhealthy, and lots of people don't have limits. The friend of mine, who just got Emp this weekend was playing 20h a day, to the point I was afraid of his health, and asked him several times to take a break. I even promised I would stay far from his points, so he could stay at peace, not farming too much. Glad though he got Emp already, and was kind enough to leave the campaign, allowing me to take the opportunity to be Emp. I was talking to the guy behind me as well, and promised the same, so everybody help each other, and we don't waste our time.


PS.: Just a quick update that today I managed to get Emperor. AD PUG were kind enough to help me out.

Kwoung

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Yeah, I have seen PUG leaders definitely leading lambs to the slaughter, but it is pretty obvious and time to drop group when you see it happen. Sadly, most people just stay in the group regardless of the fact the leader was definitely working for the other faction.. but thats their choice to stay and get streamrolled at every turn.

This is pretty weird to think people are doing this. Thread should be closed. Poster needs to take a break from the game probably.

No, it was actually happening on Blackreach for quite a while, even my wife noticed it and she isn't really into strategies and all, it was really obvious.

Dunning_Kruger

No this is all true; pug leaders have definitely sent their lambs to the slaughter. Sadly it’s just incompetence because they didn’t know they were aboutta get clapped, even tho they had the numbers advantage. Smh nothing they could do about it when that cold leather came flying out of my belt loops either....

Vizirith

I doubt pug leaders are leading them into traps intentionally, as the guy above me said, it is most likely just incompetence. I have seen many pug leaders/zergs go to fd a keep even when the enemy has greater or equal numbers and just get chewed up again and again. Does this mean they are doing it intentionally to give AP to the enemy faction? Or do they just not know any better. There is no skill requirement to be a pug leader, just grab an auto-invite addon, set it to "x" and then spam in chat. One of the ep pug leaders I used to see often had food up less than half the time and it was hit or miss whether he had a mundus.

Khallarion wrote: »

Indeed, there're easier ways to troll, or mislead people, and they also do that. As for winning the campaign, that's another story, another issue within this issue, and recently, specially this weekend, lots of people noticed when people were trolling with scroll they should bring to our side.

Again probably just farming with scroll, nothing new.

Khallarion wrote: »

Even though they can't swap using the same account, they might use another one. I know people in the game that have more than four accounts, accounts their siblings don't use anymore, for example, or accounts that they bought on sale. There are just lots of ways to cheat.

Again largely to what purpose? Spy, sure. Grab scroll and run it to a different faction, sure unless somebody on that faction swaps to an account with a character on a different faction and kills him. Largely this type of cheating is very limited.

Khallarion wrote: »

As for what ZOS can do, I'm not sure. I heard people were banned 4 or 5 times already, and nothing more happened to them. I heard they might ban based on the heaviness of the infraction, being such ban for days or weeks, I'm not sure how it works. But even if they ban someone, it's not something practical.

You basically can just perma-ban someone or ip ban someone, there isn't exactly much more they can do? Report it to the police? "Hi, we'd like to report a person named @furryNUTter159 for swapping accounts to steal a scroll from Dragonclaw"

Khallarion wrote: »

I mean, of course we need some counter-measure based on people's infractions, but the only way to avoid that is fixing the gaps in the system, thus studying and releasing patches. That's something that requires time, effort, and of course, resources, and I'm not sure how much ZOS would like to invest.

They fixed several things, and are doing their best in order to fix other stuff, like the lag. Before, for example, I couldn't even play in Cyrodiil. As soon a zerg appeared, I was kicked out of the server, now though, after the tests, I was able to keep playing, my ping got better, and I managed to to this push for Emp.

I hope they bring some quality of life stuff like, for example;

1 - You can be Emperor just once;

Can understand where this is coming from, but would cheapen the title and wouldn't mean much anymore. At some point the emp would be some dude with like 20k AP.

Khallarion wrote: »

2 - A limit of Alliance points earned each day, or each campaign;

Limit the character or the account? No game I know does this and can clearly see why.

Khallarion wrote: »

3 - Limit the time you can stay in Cyrodiil, obligating players to take a break;

...Are you serious? Good god man, if someone can't control themselves to such an extent that it becomes harmful I think we'd much rather it be on eso rather than alot of other stuff.

Khallarion wrote: »

4 - Set timer for sieges, allowing them at specific times of the day, peak times;

Except plenty of people like the long drawn out sieges rather than simply pvdooring everything. If anything I think siege should do more damage to players making tactics needed.

Khallarion wrote: »

5 - Kicking Emperor from campaign or resetting their points as soon they are dethroned;

And resetting campaign rewards. In Gray Host there aren't emps all that often.

Khallarion wrote: »

6 - Allowing points by killing the same person once every half minutes or something like that.

There is a diminishing AP gain for killing someone again within a certain amount if time.

geonsocal

Report it to the police? "Hi, we'd like to report a person named @furryNUTter159 for swapping accounts to steal a scroll from Dragonclaw"

that was funny...

man, I think we could probably all benefit a little with taking a break from the game for a few days (types this statement as I get ready to log on and go fight for a little while )...

Khallarion

Vizirith wrote: »

I doubt pug leaders are leading them into traps intentionally, as the guy above me said, it is most likely just incompetence. I have seen many pug leaders/zergs go to fd a keep even when the enemy has greater or equal numbers and just get chewed up again and again. Does this mean they are doing it intentionally to give AP to the enemy faction? Or do they just not know any better. There is no skill requirement to be a pug leader, just grab an auto-invite addon, set it to "x" and then spam in chat. One of the ep pug leaders I used to see often had food up less than half the time and it was hit or miss whether he had a mundus.

Khallarion wrote: »

Indeed, there're easier ways to troll, or mislead people, and they also do that. As for winning the campaign, that's another story, another issue within this issue, and recently, specially this weekend, lots of people noticed when people were trolling with scroll they should bring to our side.

Again probably just farming with scroll, nothing new.

Khallarion wrote: »

Even though they can't swap using the same account, they might use another one. I know people in the game that have more than four accounts, accounts their siblings don't use anymore, for example, or accounts that they bought on sale. There are just lots of ways to cheat.

Again largely to what purpose? Spy, sure. Grab scroll and run it to a different faction, sure unless somebody on that faction swaps to an account with a character on a different faction and kills him. Largely this type of cheating is very limited.

Khallarion wrote: »

As for what ZOS can do, I'm not sure. I heard people were banned 4 or 5 times already, and nothing more happened to them. I heard they might ban based on the heaviness of the infraction, being such ban for days or weeks, I'm not sure how it works. But even if they ban someone, it's not something practical.

You basically can just perma-ban someone or ip ban someone, there isn't exactly much more they can do? Report it to the police? "Hi, we'd like to report a person named @furryNUTter159 for swapping accounts to steal a scroll from Dragonclaw"

Khallarion wrote: »

I mean, of course we need some counter-measure based on people's infractions, but the only way to avoid that is fixing the gaps in the system, thus studying and releasing patches. That's something that requires time, effort, and of course, resources, and I'm not sure how much ZOS would like to invest.

They fixed several things, and are doing their best in order to fix other stuff, like the lag. Before, for example, I couldn't even play in Cyrodiil. As soon a zerg appeared, I was kicked out of the server, now though, after the tests, I was able to keep playing, my ping got better, and I managed to to this push for Emp.

I hope they bring some quality of life stuff like, for example;

1 - You can be Emperor just once;

Can understand where this is coming from, but would cheapen the title and wouldn't mean much anymore. At some point the emp would be some dude with like 20k AP.

Khallarion wrote: »

2 - A limit of Alliance points earned each day, or each campaign;

Limit the character or the account? No game I know does this and can clearly see why.

Khallarion wrote: »

3 - Limit the time you can stay in Cyrodiil, obligating players to take a break;

...Are you serious? Good god man, if someone can't control themselves to such an extent that it becomes harmful I think we'd much rather it be on eso rather than alot of other stuff.

Khallarion wrote: »

4 - Set timer for sieges, allowing them at specific times of the day, peak times;

Except plenty of people like the long drawn out sieges rather than simply pvdooring everything. If anything I think siege should do more damage to players making tactics needed.

Khallarion wrote: »

5 - Kicking Emperor from campaign or resetting their points as soon they are dethroned;

And resetting campaign rewards. In Gray Host there aren't emps all that often.

Khallarion wrote: »

6 - Allowing points by killing the same person once every half minutes or something like that.

There is a diminishing AP gain for killing someone again within a certain amount if time.

Thank you for your comment!

I honestly liked it, I think it brings some humor to the topic.

Anyways, there are of course PUG leaders who don't know what they're doing, just getting a bunch of people together and hitting a Keep's door over and over, it's part of the game, it's natural, and that isn't the point here.

Well, it seems you were playing this weekend as well, so as stated, it's an issue within the issue. I believe more people complaining, and larger the amount of people complaining, better the chances of ZOS taking a closer look.

As for reporting it to the police, I honestly thought about that... lol, just kidding, couldn't avoid losing the opportunity to make a joke.

Related to the quality of life stuff suggested, being Emperor doesn't mean much. I mean, I played from 12 to 16 hours a day, during almost 15 days. Could farm a decent amount of AP, had to socialize with people, organize PUG parties, enter in some Guilds, start a discussion among guild members and leaders, start a discussion here in the forums, I made some friends, suggested we helping out each other, managed to support the guy in first, made a deal with the guy behind me so he could also get Emp, found a good opportunity at morning, entered a PUG party while the server had tons of AD, and ninjed (not sure if this word applies) DC keeps and managed to get Emperor helping the group who was helping me to get to Emperor.

It's nice, yeah specially if you have a condition, like autism, and your school teachers used to call you ***. It's cool to have the acknowledgement from people who play with you, even people who you were killing and before you get Emp they just said some nasty words, then after they said like; "Oh you, Emp, I didn't know, congratz"! Yeah, lol it's nice. But, nothing would change what happened to me, in my life, would just confirm I can do something right, if I dedicate myself, at least in a game. Then sometimes I wonder, well, If I was that social, or if I had the experience I have now, maybe I could have changed some events in my life, but well, it's living and learning.

It's not being Emperor or something, having a title or something, that will show my value, but my effort, my dedication and specially, my values within the values I project upon my daily-life stuff. That's what the game taught me, and I knew it before getting Emperor, and being Emperor for 6 hours and a half just confirmed that. Aside that, I'm still an autistic guy, having a common life, playing a game. I don't know why some people such as some Zerg Lords think they're different... well, they might not be autistic...

But, the company should care about people's limits, because usually, from what I could notice, people have any. Alright, I had my wife saying I should take care of me, I should eat, use the bathroom, etc., but not every person has a wife, a mother, a grandmother or something to take care of them.

Anyways, I played enough to notice what they could improve. If they gonna do that, I honestly have no idea, but those discussions might help something, we might come up with some conclusions, who knows! I just wanted to conclude my goals, the ones I set to myself, also help out in something, trying to improve the gameplay and help out/defend people that are in a position I was before.

o4m

Thank you @Khallarion for this Thread! Its really hard to "discuss" with people that part of that .. AP-making Industry.

Especially when they begin to troll a threat to force the DEVs to close it.

Cross-over faction play on locked campaigns is exploiting.

VaranisArano

o4m wrote: »

Thank you Khallarion for this Thread! Its really hard to "discuss" with people that part of that .. AP-making Industry.

Especially when they begin to troll a threat to force the DEVs to close it.

Cross-over faction play on locked campaigns is exploiting.

What exactly do you mean by "cross-over faction play on locked campaigns is exploiting?"

GreasyDave

It's kind of interesting reading some of the replies to OP. The OP wants to talk about a disappointment in experiencing certain types of unethical/unsportsmanlike behaviour in Cyrodiil and folks react like he is threatening them with a gun? Those reactions seem weird to me. Not the thread. OP made it clear he is only giving his opinion and will listen to others.

It's true that some of the points he lists aren't unethical or even exploits. One could argue that ethics don't belong in an unpoliced competitive semi-war simulation. And the poster who recommended OP let it go, and move on, has the best advice.

But I think everyone who pvps will have come across some kind of "unsportsmanlike" act even if it hasn't made it onto OP's list. What is the harm of trying to discuss that? Friends helping out friends happens. Politics happens. Is it good...? OP is putting that on the table to be discussed.

I encounter behavior which I find cheap on a weekly basis. But honestly, I let it go because the decent behaviour and solid players I meet far outweigh the cheap ones.

So OP, ultimately, let it go. You are right, some players behave unethically because they are unwatched and unidentifiable. But let it go, enjoy pvping with your friends. That's the important part.

Jierdanit

GreasyDave wrote: »

It's kind of interesting reading some of the replies to OP. The OP wants to talk about a disappointment in experiencing certain types of unethical/unsportsmanlike behaviour in Cyrodiil and folks react like he is threatening them with a gun? Those reactions seem weird to me. Not the thread. OP made it clear he is only giving his opinion and will listen to others.

It's true that some of the points he lists aren't unethical or even exploits. One could argue that ethics don't belong in an unpoliced competitive semi-war simulation. And the poster who recommended OP let it go, and move on, has the best advice.

But I think everyone who pvps will have come across some kind of "unsportsmanlike" act even if it hasn't made it onto OP's list. What is the harm of trying to discuss that? Friends helping out friends happens. Politics happens. Is it good...? OP is putting that on the table to be discussed.

I encounter behavior which I find cheap on a weekly basis. But honestly, I let it go because the decent behaviour and solid players I meet far outweigh the cheap ones.

So OP, ultimately, let it go. You are right, some players behave unethically because they are unwatched and unidentifiable. But let it go, enjoy pvping with your friends. That's the important part.

To be honest i feel like the OP never listened to anything the others tried to say but just went with the simple solution to say that everyone who doesnt share his opinion is someone who does those immoral things and doesnt want them to be "publicly known", so theyd defend it.

He never really actually brought up any arguments or proof for most of the things hes said and just wants everyone to think its true just because he says so.

Khallarion

Jierdanit wrote: »

GreasyDave wrote: »

It's kind of interesting reading some of the replies to OP. The OP wants to talk about a disappointment in experiencing certain types of unethical/unsportsmanlike behaviour in Cyrodiil and folks react like he is threatening them with a gun? Those reactions seem weird to me. Not the thread. OP made it clear he is only giving his opinion and will listen to others.

It's true that some of the points he lists aren't unethical or even exploits. One could argue that ethics don't belong in an unpoliced competitive semi-war simulation. And the poster who recommended OP let it go, and move on, has the best advice.

But I think everyone who pvps will have come across some kind of "unsportsmanlike" act even if it hasn't made it onto OP's list. What is the harm of trying to discuss that? Friends helping out friends happens. Politics happens. Is it good...? OP is putting that on the table to be discussed.

I encounter behavior which I find cheap on a weekly basis. But honestly, I let it go because the decent behaviour and solid players I meet far outweigh the cheap ones.

So OP, ultimately, let it go. You are right, some players behave unethically because they are unwatched and unidentifiable. But let it go, enjoy pvping with your friends. That's the important part.

To be honest i feel like the OP never listened to anything the others tried to say but just went with the simple solution to say that everyone who doesnt share his opinion is someone who does those immoral things and doesnt want them to be "publicly known", so theyd defend it.

He never really actually brought up any arguments or proof for most of the things hes said and just wants everyone to think its true just because he says so.

That's kinda funny. Actually, there were several changes in Cyro, social changes at least, people leaving guilds, others disbanding guilds, people being kicked from guilds, other guilds forming after all the issues we had and that were exposed. Of course I'll not offer any evidence here, because again, that's something the support is taking care of, so it's not my obligation, neither ethical to expose everyone, their names and so on, as you might know.

Aside that, I listen to what people say, since there isn't much to do, aside focusing on my own stuff, which I could accomplish by my own efforts, and of course, with the help of some good people and pug. So, again, you're just supposing things about me, saying whatever you think is right and projecting that on me.

Anyways, I'll reply to the other guy, if it's of your interest, you might read it, I allow that, if now, feel free to do your stuff.

Thank you for your attention.

Khallarion

GreasyDave wrote: »

It's kind of interesting reading some of the replies to OP. The OP wants to talk about a disappointment in experiencing certain types of unethical/unsportsmanlike behaviour in Cyrodiil and folks react like he is threatening them with a gun? Those reactions seem weird to me. Not the thread. OP made it clear he is only giving his opinion and will listen to others.

It's true that some of the points he lists aren't unethical or even exploits. One could argue that ethics don't belong in an unpoliced competitive semi-war simulation. And the poster who recommended OP let it go, and move on, has the best advice.

But I think everyone who pvps will have come across some kind of "unsportsmanlike" act even if it hasn't made it onto OP's list. What is the harm of trying to discuss that? Friends helping out friends happens. Politics happens. Is it good...? OP is putting that on the table to be discussed.

I encounter behavior which I find cheap on a weekly basis. But honestly, I let it go because the decent behaviour and solid players I meet far outweigh the cheap ones.

So OP, ultimately, let it go. You are right, some players behave unethically because they are unwatched and unidentifiable. But let it go, enjoy pvping with your friends. That's the important part.

Thank you for your reply.

Your observations are quite right, to be honest. People, usually the ones involved in those practices, feel like they're threatened, and somehow they are, since they're doing some stuff that are against the terms of use. People here and the support asked me so many times to report people, that I gave a list of who knows thirty people in order to be investigated.

After that, it was funny to see some accounts not login-in in the game for days or weeks. Also, it was funny to see people quickly disbanding some guilds, or people forming their own, after leaving guilds they don't want to mess the name, or reputation.

True, there're some points that might not be considered exploits, but others indeed are. As for ethical and unethical, it seems different people have different understanding of what's ethical, so it's up to people to do whatever they do, since there's no legislation towards what you should do within a game, aside the terms of service.

As suggested, I kept playing, dedicating myself, got my points, my keeps, got Emperor, had my achievement earned by myself, in a fair way, without boosting AP, and done. I left the first place in order to the guy behind me be able to get Emperor, which he kept, not allowing others to have the same opportunity, but that's up to him, right?

Unsportsmanlike act are common everywhere, because people love to take advantage on others, use and abuse others. Competitive games are the best place to see such behavior, and we get used to it, but of course, we might not accept it. Some might run away, but I like to challenge myself, and do my best.

So yeah, I just exposed the issue, did my best to help improving the game's mechanics, the quality of life and so on. Played with people, met some people, had some friends added to my short friend list, and now I'm working on other areas of the game.