Moral Values

Khallarion

Greetings,

After looking for similar discussion topics, and the ten first discussion pages, I couldn't notice any topic mentioning that. Also, due my recent experiences in Cyrodill PvP, also the PvP community, I would like to share these thoughts. Keep in mind that those thoughts are personal, and I'm expressing them due the right I have to do so.

For the first time I attempted to become Emperor in the game. I knew I had to dedicate several hours and participate in several PvP events in Cyrodill. That's not the problem, and I quickly notice everyone with time and effort is capable of becoming Emperor. Also, knowing people, having a Guild and friends to run are somehow mandatory if you want to attempt that, since it's not only farming points, but also, getting keeps, we all know that.

What bothered though was what I encountered in Cyrodill PvP. I know these things happens, and I know quite well, after playing MMOs for more than 10 years, also participating in different Guilds, Legions, Groups, Forums etc. This time though, was a bit different, and I felt my values somehow damaged.

We all know exploits happens, and the Emperor system, not to say the game system surrounding the PvP in Cyrodill isn't perfect and well-thought. Naturally, people would exploit those flaws in order to take advantage. Some of the exploits I see were;

- Different Alliances controlled by the same group of people;
- Alliances trade scrolls in order to control Leaderboard points;
- Rotation of Alliances each month, allowing a group of people to earn rewards;
- People use Keep's resources in order to attract people to kill. They exploit AP earning by attracting those people, also by taking different resources, based on different Alliances, so they might kill each other's group for the tick.
- People organize Pug parties in order to attract them to Keeps. As soon the enemy's party is ready, a signal is used, so they might go to the Keep. As soon a relative small group (smaller than the defensive party) arrives, they wipe out and get defensive ticks.
- Late night and early morning, people from different Alliances exchange AP, using defensive ticks.

What bothered me though, to the depths of my heard, was watching some Guilds forming Pug groups and leading them to death in order to exploit the AP earnings. I don't mind if someone is hacking, or abusing the system killing their friends at keeps at night, or fighting each other over and over in order to earn defensive ticks. I know I'm more than capable of earning points in an honest way, since I could reach second place, right before a friend of mine.

But today I was in a party, with good people, friends, and they were used and abused. Even people I don't know, but that suffers from a condition, and you can notice that by their voices, they were all used, and started to get frustrated. The party leader knew what was happening, there were people from opposite faction behind us all the time, always waiting the opportunity to get free AP. If you play this game long enough, you know the basic of strategy in order to take keeps, cut resources, attack different keeps or outposts in order to get your goal, and you know how to avoid some mistakes.

I felt my values damaged, also the entire gameplay damaged. Now I know it's all set up for other's interest, and this just destroys the game, the experience. Worse, and again, using and abusing people, it's just not the way I was educated. That's all, just a thought I would like to share, to express, my experiences in another toxic environment that competition brings us. I don't know if ZOS will read or even care about these things, but I couldn't avoid expressing it.

The only comparison I have when watching these things, and these people are to relate them to criminals. If they do that here, they could easily do that in any place, if the opportunity appears.

Thank you for your attention.

idk

Khallarion wrote: »

- Alliances trade scrolls in order to control Leaderboard points;
- Rotation of Alliances each month, allowing a group of people to earn rewards;

Do you have proof of this? While I know players from different alliances will help each other get keeps for Emperor, these two points OP are suggesting that the alliance scoring is just a scam that a group of people controls to share the benefit evenly with all the alliances. I would suggest it is very far fetched a large enough group can be that well organized over a period of a month let alone months upon months that is suggested here.

Khallarion wrote: »

- People use Keep's resources in order to attract people to kill. They exploit AP earning by attracting those people, also by taking different resources, based on different Alliances, so they might kill each other's group for the tick.

First, there are legitimate tactics involving taking resources. Take them from the correct keeps and block transit. Besides that, the players that often quickly rush in to take the resources back are often ill-prepared. At some point, one would think they would wise up.

Khallarion wrote: »

- People organize Pug parties in order to attract them to Keeps. As soon the enemy's party is ready, a signal is used, so they might go to the Keep. As soon a relative small group (smaller than the defensive party) arrives, they wipe out and get defensive ticks..

Again, do you have any proof of this? For starters, such groups would not hold up long as it would become obvious. It would also deter players from joining pugs, especially the pugs from by these same players. It would seem to be a huge waste of time for the amount of AP one would gain. Besides, a lot of pug groups are bad, the leaders are bad. It would not be surprising to see them lead their group to their deaths because they are bad.

This thread starts off stating this is sharing one's thoughts but these points are presented as statements of facts, not opinions.

VaranisArano

Don't confuse gameplay you don't like with gameplay that's not allowed.

Not an Exploit
- Different Alliances controlled by the same group of people;
- Alliances trade scrolls in order to control Leaderboard points;
- Rotation of Alliances each month, allowing a group of people to earn rewards;
- People use Keep's resources in order to attract people to kill. They exploit AP earning by attracting those people, also by taking different resources, based on different Alliances, so they might kill each other's group for the tick.
- People organize Pug parties in order to attract them to Keeps. As soon the enemy's party is ready, a signal is used, so they might go to the Keep. As soon a relative small group (smaller than the defensive party) arrives, they wipe out and get defensive ticks.

Actually an Exploit
- Late night and early morning, people from different Alliances exchange AP, using defensive ticks.


If you can catch them, ZOS takes a dim view of people profiting from fake D-ticks gained through cross-faction cooperation.

Beyond that? If you want less cross-faction cooperation, stick to the alliance-locked campaign. ZOS can't and won't enforce alliance loyalty on player behavior, not even something as simple to spot as handing the scroll over to the enemy. ZOS doesn't enforce good sportsmanship, competitive campaigns, and always doing your best for your current faction, you know? They do enforce the sort of infractions that involve generating lots of AP via directly trading objectives or generating fake AP ticks by having friends let you kill them.


That being said, the one that stuck out for me was Tower Farming. Do you seriously think its against the rules to take a resource then wait to kill the players who trickle in to take it back? Its a perfectly legitimate strategy, also used by gankers and by ball groups, who do the much flashier version wherein they take a keep then run around killing every group that comes to take it back. Not an exploit,

Khallarion

Greetings again,

I have several proof of these, videos, screenshots, conversations, names, identities. I know from where these people came from, I know some of their personal background, their jobs, family issues etc. Of course I will not reveal those details to anyone, first because of my own safety, second because it`s not ethical to do, neither in correspondence with this Forum term of use.

It`s not my intention to harm anyone, but I have the rights to disagree to their practices and not get involved. Also, it`s a duty as a citizen to keep harmony, protect people and society. I was educated to be useful to society, to respect the law and act accordingly to other`s and my own rights.

One thing is when you have people, guild, friends in order to take keeps and help you out being Emperor, another thing is when a group of people decide if you gonna become Emperor or not, since they are in several Alliances, have contact with people from several Alliances, and allow just who they think are useful to them, in order to get Emperor.

Indeed, from what I know now, the Alliance scoring is just a scam that a group of people controls to share the benefits evenly with all Alliances. You also don`t need a big group of people, you just some people at the right places.

I was leading AD pugs for few weeks now. I`m aware of the legitimate tactics in order to take keeps, avoid enemies and counter-attack. I don`t blame if people aren`t sure of what I`m saying, because they`re not seeing what is happening. I know how to avoid other Alliances to take Defensive Ticks, by holding my front line at my controlled territory, not pushing to enemy keeps, that's common sense for anyone experienced in Cyrodill PvP.

If I say anymore more, things will become too obvious, and again, I'll reveal things that are not ethical. ZOS have some testing happening in Cyro, they have all the data needed, I just had to point out the direction and express this warning.
My thoughts are expressed between the lines, and now, I made them more obvious. I represent my thoughts and values through the statement of facts.

Even with Alliance-locked campaign, people have multiple accounts, and play using those multiple accounts in different Alliances. It's sad ZOS doesn't enforce good sportsmanship, because the corruption I'm able to see can easily destroy both ZOS image, not saying the game image as a whole, and we saw the extreme expression of that recently, with Blizzard and their competitive environment.

I'm also sure these people are aware of this post, thus why I'm making all these statement public. Again, it's not my intention to expose anyone, and I believe people are free to do whatever they want, but of course there are consequences, people that will not accept that, and will fight against that. I'm fighting against that in a civic way, letting people choose what is best for them, based on their values and understanding.

In my personal opinion, these people aren't different from scammers, criminals, slavers, and I'm sure they would do whatever they want in order to achieve what they want in real life, if they had the opportunity. When you play with people, you never know who you are playing with. I would expect that in third world countries, where life is indeed though, and people use all sort of things to take advantage of others, but in those games we have people with jobs, careers, doing these "criminal" acts in the game.

Anyway, I'm not sure if I was able to express myself properly, first because English isn't my main language, and second, because different people understand different things in the same sentence, but I believe it's suffice to say we are dealing with some heavy stuff and topic.

Thank you again for your attention.

edges_endgame

"criminal acts" in a game that encourages you to murder others, reward you for that and stealing... I mean.. Different people, different opinions on how to play.
Maybe Eso is just not for you then.

Also... You don't want to expose "these people's backgrounds", then why even bring it up? It's a bit of a hidden warning behind those lines.

I honestly dunno what you expect people to tell you here or what you really want from this thread. People play the way they want to. It's encouraged by ZOS in within the rules. Trolling with a scroll or preventing someone to emp is definitely not lacking morals.

Khallarion

We are all aware of these things not only in this game, but in others, and there are even worse games that encourages worse behavior. Everything is based on common-sense, which brings the topic about violence and games, and of course there will be some people who wouldn't be able to separate fiction from reality, and might express violent behavior based on game, but the majority just understand what's happening and understand they're playing a role.

Indeed, people are free to play the way they want, but when you take advantage of other human being, not NPCs, in order to achieve what you want, and when you use people like they were objects, then you're crossing a line. When you're able to talk to them, listen to their voice, and they deposit confidence in you, and you lead them to slaughter, then your values start to be questioned.

Of course this topic is also an obvious warning to these people as well. Now, I won't say names, their jobs, neither anything related to their game or personal life background, suffice to say I'm aware of both as well. We live in world where there are always predators, but these predators also don't know who they are dealing with.

I don't expect anything from people here, but to expose what's happening, also to encourage ZOS to take a closer look in what's happening, and to encourage the sportsmanship the game is lacking, since they're to glad for their community and thankful. Of course there're different people in a community, and some might spoil it, those are the minority that we must deal in society since the beginning of civilization.

Becoming Emperor now is the least of the problems. I personally don't have any motivation to play in such environment, neither with these people. If they play so low in order to get something in a game that has no values at all outside of their priorities, or outside of the game itself, that's their problem. We all know there are other people in society that gonna do worse than that, for more, for fame, money and power.

I'm already happy to know I have the discipline to farm my points in an acceptable way for me, also happy to know I'm capable of achieving anything I want without exploiting or cheating, even dealing with these people. So I don't need to show off a title, the only thing I wanted is to have my goals, my achievement in the game, but if I can't, due all the issues presented above, that's also alright, I can roleplay in other areas of the game, collect other achievements and so on.

VaranisArano

Oooh, you got all those personal details but apparently none of them made it into a report for ZOS, huh?

Oh, right, its almost like making multiple accounts to play for multiple factions isn't against the TOS.

Its almost like "Hey guys, we're all gonna swap to AD this campaign," isn't against the TOS. Heck, we've even had outright alliances between faction guilds to take down a dominant alliance discussed in the forums...and guess what? Not against the TOS.

Blocking someone from becoming emperor by withholding support? A jerk move, but not against the TOS.
(Also, I feel like "make friends with the guilds who're going to push for emp" should be higher on the "Advice for how to make Emperor" list. Like, seriously, the active guilds on your faction are either your best friend or your worst enemy and you want them to think of you kindly - especially if they have a guildie in the running as well.)


You can have whatever opinion you want about "unethical" strategies and tactics, but don't call them exploits when they aren't.


And finally, if you really, genuinely believe that what you see is an exploit? Take that personal info you are gloating about and send it straight to ZOS with a report about their exploiting behavior. Then let ZOS discipline them (or not) as ZOS sees fit.

If you don't report it, or you don't actually think its an exploit, then congrats. You've got a list of people you don't like in Cyrodiil. I've got one of those myself - usually its of the people I mute when I want a break from the bickering in zone chat.

Vizirith

Depending on how long you've been pvping, actions taken by players/groups/guilds may be taken to mean more than they do. Overall there is very little actual conspiracy that I've seen in my 6ish years of pvping.

A well-liked and known player will have an easier time pushing emp, both because some players on the other factions may be less inclined to defend than typical, while the player's own faction would be more likely to push harder. As an EP player, over the years there have been EP emps that I disliked and as such was much less likely to defend emp keeps besides chal and BRK and even then I'd prioritize Arrius and scrolls over those. You also have players that have already been emp quit the campaign to allow the person in 2nd to get emp. There are a decent amount of politics in cyro. For example if I anger/insult a guild leader for a big EP guild, and I end up in first place. How much will that same guild push for emp? It really never happens and usually you have to take it pretty far to run into this but it can happen all the same.

Small scale/solo player will often fight at resources allowing for friendly guards and decent LOS'ing in the tower. Enemy players are attracted both by the guaranteed player/players and by wanting to defend keep transit/the keep itself. Based on what is going on with the map, half the time the player/ small group gets zerged down and that's it. You will also get players who just do the capture 9 rss quest and then bail, to avoid pvp and get caltrops/rapids.

Scroll trading is also really never seen. You will have ball groups that will hit a keep and then farm with it. Enemy players will show up to try and retake the scroll. Often the ball group will just farm with it until they die and then an enemy faction will grab it. The intent is rarely to actually acquire it for their faction.

As far as using multiple accounts to do something like running scrolls to an enemy faction; while that has happened and always will, you more often than not have other players with multiple accounts who will simply swap factions and kill the guy.

guarstompemoji

Khallarion wrote: »

What bothered me though, to the depths of my heard, was watching some Guilds forming Pug groups and leading them to death in order to exploit the AP earnings.

Oh, wow. Well, I knew people could go low, but this is disheartening.

PUGs are great recruitment events for guilds, and this aspect of the game in general. They're a chance to show that this style of PvP is well-done and can be a lot of fun.

Don't ruin that.

ssewallb14_ESO

I can remember this happening exactly one time several years ago, I know because I knew the people involved. It wasn't so much to "exploit" ap gains as it was trying to start a fight on a boring map. It's uncommon on PC/NA because each faction has their dedicated zerglords that play all day and herd the pugs around, but it does happen.

Khallarion

Personal details aren't hard to get nowadays, specially with social media and discord. Now, which of those details are important to the current situation? Probably any, since it's just an in-game exploit, not a criminal act within the legislation/law we would encounter in the majority of countries.

That's why there is no need to express such details to the support. If they need to do something, they'll do within their grasp, also, with all the testing running in Cyrodill, they definitely have all the data needed in order to see if someone is exploiting or not. There are several ways of abusing AP earning, it seems, that aren't against TOS. Now that's ZOS problem, and they'll probably have a way to deal with it.

There are several valid tactics within the game. The point here is abusing another person confidence, and using them to exploit a system flaw. Also, the reports are between me and ZOS, so I don't need to comment anything about it here.


Now, it seems this exactly issue happened several years ago, accordingly to some comments here. I wouldn't be surprised though. The point nowadays is exactly the same; a boring map, where a group of people controls everything. If you take Cyrodill during the weeks, at the middle of the day, you will se just these people running and exploiting, as if the server were their private server.

I just wish ZOS was able to see what PvP in Cyrodill became. Playing 12h a day, resting 3h in order to have lunch, dinner and shower, I was able to earn around 1.2 mil AP per day. Some days I couldn't make that much, others I could make a bit more, and even so, aside the two days I'm not playing as before, due all these issues, I'm with 9 mil Ap, within 10 days of campaign. You will see people almost 2x more AP from what I was able to get, depending on the faction you pay close attention.

Even EP zerglord have less AP now than some other people, in another Alliances, and I'm always able to see him messing around, while I hardly ever see other top people from DC. Even the third guy at DC is more active, and messing around with his harbinger set. Not directly saying those top people are cheating, but they indeed play way more than I, I just don't know how they fit that within 24h, maybe they don't need rest, who knows, but those are speculations that I don't want to dive in.

There are other people that are smarter, and fit their earned points within a possible meta for any healthy gameplay, thus keeping in the top ranks. Just ZOS is capable of measuring the data, and have their conclusions and take proper action, since it's of their own interest to keep the game entertaining for their costumers.

VaranisArano

ZOS isn't clairvoyant. ZOS encourages players to report when they witness exploits. If you really think you are witnessing exploits, report it.

"Reports are between me and ZOS."

Well, sure. But wow, your confidence that ZOS will spot exploits by reviewing server data and discipline players on their own without needing players to report is far, far greater than mine.

Me, I figure if I'm gonna complain about an exploit, I'd better report it when I see if I expect anything to be done about it.

Khallarion

My confidence in ZOS is related to the fact they're analyzing several date from Cyrodill. They're analyzing population within determined periods of time, battle activities, skill usage and so on. Just these data can easily show a lot of information, not only related to ability skills, but other contents, contents related to this topic.

Having all the data of what is happening, they could easily replicate this data, I believe, creating replays of different battles and situations in Cyrodill, in a specific server, the data alone, as stated would reveal a lot, imagine creating replays of what's happening in Cyrodill, and I believe they have ways to do that.

What's good for all these things that are happening, is the simply fact they're happening within these test periods. Alongside my reports, pointing out the specific gap those things happened, will give them a good chance to notice the exploits. I don't even need to say a name, to report a player, I just need to point out how, when, and where to look at.

I doubt they would discipline players, but they'll definitely review how rewards in Cyrodill works, and might change the gameplay in order to motivates sportsmanship. Aside that, I'm just talking and interacting with people I know and I like, aside that, I have no interest in playing with people I don't know, or enter in guilds that I don't know what they're doing.

idk

@VaranisArano is correct. If you do not report it to Zos and let them decide if someone is doing something wrong then it is fairly meaningless to complain about generalized activities that are possibly against Zos' TOS. While Zos is looking at a lot of data from Cyrodiil ATM, they are looking at what is causing the load and how the test parameters are affecting the load. They are not looking for unspecified and unreported offenses.

In other words, if you really think something is wrong with certain actions you see happening in ESO then take SS and video and report it to Zos. Ofc, let them know you have SS and video of what you are claiming.

If all of this is coming from your "talking and interacting with people" you know and like then I have some bad news for you. A lot of people say stuff about the game and mention things that are happening yet have no idea what they are speaking of. I knew a person who visited Zos in Maryland before the game launched. He would say things about how the game works as though they are an authority because Zos invited them for a visit. Ironically, they were wrong almost every time they opened their mouth.

Khallarion

I already sent a complete relatory based on the evidences I have in my report. If there is a need for them to check the data, aside the issues causing the load and how the test parameters are affecting the load, they will know where to look at. Even if they need more evidence, I'll gladly share it for them, making more relatories, taking more screen shots and even commenting on the videos I created.

Anyway, thank you for all the tips and comments, those indeed helped me out knowing the best way to communicate this issue.

Grimlok_S

VaranisArano wrote: »

Actually an Exploit
- Late night and early morning, people from different Alliances exchange AP, using defensive ticks.


If you can catch them, ZOS takes a dim view of people profiting from fake D-ticks gained through cross-faction cooperation.

Are you sure on this?

I recall this coming up on the smaller PC/NA campaigns years ago and ZOS deemed it fair play, despite the same group holding emp regardless of which faction they rolled in on that week.

I've just accepted it since.

VaranisArano

Grimlok_S wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Actually an Exploit
- Late night and early morning, people from different Alliances exchange AP, using defensive ticks.


If you can catch them, ZOS takes a dim view of people profiting from fake D-ticks gained through cross-faction cooperation.

Are you sure on this?

I recall this coming up on the smaller PC/NA campaigns years ago and ZOS deemed it fair play, despite the same group holding emp regardless of which faction they rolled in on that week.

I've just accepted it since.

I'd be curious to find a source for that.

I'm working from this ZOS quote on the Bleakers Trading Incident in 2017, specifically: "Accounts found taking part in cross-alliance AP farming may be subject to disciplinary actions." https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3961106#Comment_3961106

So ZOS isn't in favor of boosting, which is the most commonly seen with players deliberately feeding a player defensive ticks. You get stuff like a player set up at a resource at a back keep or the scroll gate, then a group of players dying to their oils repeatedly to generate D-ticks. Or you get players sitting in the back keeps and their friend repeatedly "attacking" the keep to generate D-ticks.

It was a pretty big problem back in Summerset where the buffed D-ticks made boosting very profitable for the players who could get away with it.

Its hard to catch them boosting, but ZOS will take action on them...eventually. As with most discipline, its rarely fast or public.

Khallarion

VaranisArano wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Actually an Exploit
- Late night and early morning, people from different Alliances exchange AP, using defensive ticks.


If you can catch them, ZOS takes a dim view of people profiting from fake D-ticks gained through cross-faction cooperation.

Are you sure on this?

I recall this coming up on the smaller PC/NA campaigns years ago and ZOS deemed it fair play, despite the same group holding emp regardless of which faction they rolled in on that week.

I've just accepted it since.

I'd be curious to find a source for that.

I'm working from this ZOS quote on the Bleakers Trading Incident in 2017, specifically: "Accounts found taking part in cross-alliance AP farming may be subject to disciplinary actions." https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3961106#Comment_3961106

So ZOS isn't in favor of boosting, which is the most commonly seen with players deliberately feeding a player defensive ticks. You get stuff like a player set up at a resource at a back keep or the scroll gate, then a group of players dying to their oils repeatedly to generate D-ticks. Or you get players sitting in the back keeps and their friend repeatedly "attacking" the keep to generate D-ticks.

It was a pretty big problem back in Summerset where the buffed D-ticks made boosting very profitable for the players who could get away with it.

Its hard to catch them boosting, but ZOS will take action on them...eventually. As with most discipline, its rarely fast or public.

Even this issue is hard to report, or in other words, hard to collect evidences that confirm what they're doing, since they can easily use pugs to satisfy their interests, such as the example I gave before, which started the whole discussion. So, for example, you get a pug party, being you a supporter of another alliance, and you bring those pugs to keep attacking a Fortress you know will be defended properly. These people die to their oils, generate D-Ticks, and the defenders keep profiting from such behavior.

Based on the experience I had in other games, the Defensive reward should always worth less than when you actually take a Keep, or a Fortress, since the effort to actually take the fort should be greater than just sitting and defending it. By taking a fortress you would need to have at least a party, and the effort to knock on their door, while defending, you just need to be there, and you earn the reward. Also, you should collaborate with the attack or defense by killing someone, repairing a door, and not just get a tick by being present in the Fortress that is under attack. Not mentioning if the Fortress had cooldowns in order to become vulnerable, would be much, much harder to exploit.

That, of course, would change the way PvP works in matters of Fortress assault, and lots of people wouldn't be happy with that. On the other hand, setting a specific time in order to a Fortress being vulnerable, within NA peak hours, would prevent abuses when less population.

PvP would be much harder, and we would need much more organization in order to take a Fortress. Also, would add meaning to a Fortress taken by a guild, for example. Because the way it's now, with all the exploits we have, I personally don't have motivation, neither I see meaning in just collecting Alliance Points in order to be the first at the Score Board, to then, become a 5 minute Emperor.

geonsocal

howdy @Khallarion

hope wherever you are you are doing well...I don't know you, you don't know me...best advice I could give to anyone in your situation though is to let this go...

you will not get a satisfactory resolution with your current approach to this issue...

I understand for a lot of folks eso, and in particular cyrodiil, is a very important part of their life, heck, lord knows I've spent enough hours/days/weeks/months/years roaming around cyrodiil myself...

let it go...

forgiveness is almost always the best choice - unless you can somehow get even of course

seriously though, you ain't gonna get even, so just let it go...the only one really suffering in this situation is you - by holding on to this negative energy...

let it go...

I'll be honest, I'm only an average pvper and the chances of ever being an emp are pretty slim...I don't know, maybe if I planned it out and jumped on a semi populated mid-year mayhem map i could do it, but, i imagine my life will still be pretty okay without ever being emperor...

no doubt your life will be just fine without ever being emperor...

most important thing though: don't let the *** get you down...be happy, it's always the best revenge...

Kwoung

Yeah, I have seen PUG leaders definitely leading lambs to the slaughter, but it is pretty obvious and time to drop group when you see it happen. Sadly, most people just stay in the group regardless of the fact the leader was definitely working for the other faction.. but thats their choice to stay and get streamrolled at every turn. You would think people would be smarter than to follow a zerg leader who stops and waits all the time, and every keep you hit is magically defended by the entire opposing faction, but nope. Underhanded, but not against the TOS.

People abuse the system to their advantage for sure, which in itself is actually sad, as its only a game. But some people feel winning at all costs > having fun and playing fair, which is also their choice, and is quite possibly their idea of fun.

Khallarion

geonsocal wrote: »

howdy @Khallarion

hope wherever you are you are doing well...I don't know you, you don't know me...best advice I could give to anyone in your situation though is to let this go...

you will not get a satisfactory resolution with your current approach to this issue...

I understand for a lot of folks eso, and in particular cyrodiil, is a very important part of their life, heck, lord knows I've spent enough hours/days/weeks/months/years roaming around cyrodiil myself...

let it go...

forgiveness is almost always the best choice - unless you can somehow get even of course

seriously though, you ain't gonna get even, so just let it go...the only one really suffering in this situation is you - by holding on to this negative energy...

let it go...

I'll be honest, I'm only an average pvper and the chances of ever being an emp are pretty slim...I don't know, maybe if I planned it out and jumped on a semi populated mid-year mayhem map i could do it, but, i imagine my life will still be pretty okay without ever being emperor...

no doubt your life will be just fine without ever being emperor...

most important thing though: don't let the *** get you down...be happy, it's always the best revenge...

Greetings,

Thank you for your kind reply.

The main intention when I started this topic was to expose the corruption within Cyrodiil. Of course the game developers already knew what would happen, if not, at least the Lore Master of ESO knew how people are corrupt, and how they would attempt to usurp the Ruby Throne. That's one of the main plots in ESO, and one of the reasons we had the Plane Meld, if comparing to the game story.

It's not my intention to change anything, since the objective world is just an expression of our subjective world and our subconsciousness, thus in order to change our immediate reality we must change our perception of the world, and the majority of people are just reactive, not used to actually ponder about different situations and how to deal with it, then reacting and responding to stimuli like animals do.

This type of behavior just make society the way it's now, and the game, a projection of the society we live in. The moral issues we have in Cyrodiil are nothing if we compare what happens in the whole game, what people do behind their game and so on, neither it's ZOS fault, or anyone's fault, it's just people being... people.

What I can do though, is not passively accepting the world as it's, even though I don't have power to change it. If people have such moral values, or the lack of those, they will need to deal with different people, and people that have their own values. I'll be true to myself, thus whenever I find corruption, I'll just avoid it, and do what I think is better. The same way corrupt people have their reasons and can be and do whatever they want, the same applies to me and others like myself.

There are people who are after the feeling of achievement, the feelings of being important when they attempt to Emperor. Well, honestly, if you think you gonna be something just by achieving a title in a game, then you must reconsider your goals. This time in Cyrodiil I see different types of people, lots of ego battles that means nothing, and a way to look something you aren't, rather than being something.

Even with lots of corruption, cheating and so on, I managed to get in second place. I'm waiting a friend of mine, in first to get Emperor, so he gonna leave the campaign so I might attempt for Emperor. I honestly doubt anyone would help me out with the achievement, but nevertheless, I did my part, the best I could, and managed to reach the top. Being Emperor is the least of the issues, since the majority achieved that by, as mentioned, cheating, or through questionable ways.

Being Emperor is easy, you can do that by several ways, even attempting at the seven days campaigns. If you satisfy the conditions, you get the achievement, so I personally don't have the conformist mentality. I'll get it, eventually, sooner or later, with or without the help of others. It's a goal I set to myself, that only depends on myself, and that's not for a sense of achievement, or in order to feel important, but just because it's an achievement within the game, I paid for it, and I'll go for it.

I don't blame people for what they're. But as mentioned, I'll not be like them. There's no one to forgive, because they did nothing to me, they did to others. Others might not be as experienced in mmos, and get deluded, manipulated, and this topic was to give a warning to these people, since I didn't accept what they were doing with those casual players.

What bothers me though is the social issue the behavior in-game show us. But again, I can't change that, because I can't change people. People must change by themselves though their own experience. But again, we can't allow that to happen freely, without doing anything about that. We must be true to ourselves, to what we believe and share it for a better community, at least the community we live or are part now.

MachineGod

Khallarion wrote: »

Greetings,
- Different Alliances controlled by the same group of people;
- Alliances trade scrolls in order to control Leaderboard points;
- Rotation of Alliances each month, allowing a group of people to earn rewards;
- People use Keep's resources in order to attract people to kill. They exploit AP earning by attracting those people, also by taking different resources, based on different Alliances, so they might kill each other's group for the tick.
- People organize Pug parties in order to attract them to Keeps. As soon the enemy's party is ready, a signal is used, so they might go to the Keep. As soon a relative small group (smaller than the defensive party) arrives, they wipe out and get defensive ticks.
- Late night and early morning, people from different Alliances exchange AP, using defensive ticks.

Different alliances are not controlled by the same group.
Alliances don't trade scrolls for points.
People don't rotate alliances. They just usually pick the "winning one" and stay. (in terms of pugs)
That's just small scalers trying to get a fight.
People don't form LFG groups just to get them farmed.
Your last part is somewhat true.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

Khallarion

MachineGod wrote: »

Khallarion wrote: »

Greetings,
- Different Alliances controlled by the same group of people;
- Alliances trade scrolls in order to control Leaderboard points;
- Rotation of Alliances each month, allowing a group of people to earn rewards;
- People use Keep's resources in order to attract people to kill. They exploit AP earning by attracting those people, also by taking different resources, based on different Alliances, so they might kill each other's group for the tick.
- People organize Pug parties in order to attract them to Keeps. As soon the enemy's party is ready, a signal is used, so they might go to the Keep. As soon a relative small group (smaller than the defensive party) arrives, they wipe out and get defensive ticks.
- Late night and early morning, people from different Alliances exchange AP, using defensive ticks.

Different alliances are not controlled by the same group.
Alliances don't trade scrolls for points.
People don't rotate alliances. They just usually pick the "winning one" and stay. (in terms of pugs)
That's just small scalers trying to get a fight.
People don't form LFG groups just to get them farmed.
Your last part is somewhat true.

[snip]

Greetings,

From what I could notice, you just read what I wrote and negate everything. Unfortunately, the majority of your allegations are empty and without substance, which indicates that you`re very naïve, or you are afraid of others knowing what`s happening in Cyrodiil.

In every game we have people trying to take advantage, not only in games honestly, but in every corner of the world, you will find people trying to take advantage on situations or on other people. It`s something natural in our world, since people`s perception is limited to their own immediate reality and interest.

Less condition any society has to offer to an individual, more corrupt this individual or group of individual will become. That`s why in poor countries you have the majority of scammers, for example. But people have different needs, and from what I could notice, talking with different people, in different countries, is the fact that different societies have different priorities.

Playing ESO PvP I could clearly notice that people who plays are in need of attention and care. They want to feel something, since they usually don`t feel much in their real lives. They want a sense of achievement, since they doubt their own success, based on the expectations they have about life, and their real life.

So, you will find people who think they are something, just because a bunch of adolescents follow them and do whatever they do, or because they own a guild that is just interested in take advantage of the benefits of a group, instead of worshiping an individual.

When people start playing any game, first they will project their understand about the game and the world upon the gameplay. After that, they will start to actually understand how the game works. When you play during a month or more, you will clearly notice how things works not only in the game, but everywhere.

So, if you played enough, you will start to notice patterns, habits. You will start noticing when each people, or the ones that usually controls everything enter the games, you will start what happens in the morning, afternoon and night. You will notice names, interactions and the results in the map.

If you were playing yesterday morning, you would see that lots of people reported a player who intentionally took a scroll, and didn`t allow their allies to deliver such scroll, hiding in the enemy base. That was one of the extremely obvious behaviors that indicates not only people cheating, but also, how the game mechanics is somehow broken.

You take a broken system and people in need of attention together, and you will see the mess we are noticing in Cyrodiil. Since your arguments were so shallow, I believe you don`t have an idea of what`s happening, neither that you followed the discussion on this topic.

Anyways, it`s just sad how people behave, and how they destroy something based on their own ignorance. The game, the system, would work nice in a group of good friends, but not while playing with strangers that would rather show off what they aren`t, instead of actually being something or someone.

To become Emperor would require from you a tactical approach, strategy, organization and cooperation within the rules of the game. You wouldn`t need to have a friend in another alliance, or even worse, another account, in order to steal the scroll from people in other Alliances, to prevent them winning something.

You wouldn`t have the need of playing at the middle of the night, while everybody is sleeping, or at the middle of the day, while everybody is working, to actually PvDoor and become Emperor. All these things just show the lack of values, moral, ability, maturity and sportsmanship.

The Emperor title and regalia, in such circumstances aren`t different from the Jester Outfit, and the "Empieror" title earned in the Jester Festival.

Jierdanit

Khallarion wrote: »

MachineGod wrote: »

Khallarion wrote: »

Greetings,
- Different Alliances controlled by the same group of people;
- Alliances trade scrolls in order to control Leaderboard points;
- Rotation of Alliances each month, allowing a group of people to earn rewards;
- People use Keep's resources in order to attract people to kill. They exploit AP earning by attracting those people, also by taking different resources, based on different Alliances, so they might kill each other's group for the tick.
- People organize Pug parties in order to attract them to Keeps. As soon the enemy's party is ready, a signal is used, so they might go to the Keep. As soon a relative small group (smaller than the defensive party) arrives, they wipe out and get defensive ticks.
- Late night and early morning, people from different Alliances exchange AP, using defensive ticks.

Different alliances are not controlled by the same group.
Alliances don't trade scrolls for points.
People don't rotate alliances. They just usually pick the "winning one" and stay. (in terms of pugs)
That's just small scalers trying to get a fight.
People don't form LFG groups just to get them farmed.
Your last part is somewhat true.

[snip]

Greetings,

From what I could notice, you just read what I wrote and negate everything. Unfortunately, the majority of your allegations are empty and without substance, which indicates that you`re very naïve, or you are afraid of others knowing what`s happening in Cyrodiil.

Well to be fair you also never gave any proof for what you claim is happening in Cyro, but just said that other people are bad because they abuse players (even though you never gave proof that they would do that on purpose other than that you claim to have seen it).

And anyone who says that you are wrong is either just wrong or is himself someone who abuses other players in PvP or does stuff that is in your opinion immoral. You dont even try to understand their point of view, because apparently you are right anyways.

Khallarion wrote: »

If you were playing yesterday morning, you would see that lots of people reported a player who intentionally took a scroll, and didn`t allow their allies to deliver such scroll, hiding in the enemy base. That was one of the extremely obvious behaviors that indicates not only people cheating, but also, how the game mechanics is somehow broken.

That is just some player trolling and not some big conspiracy by the "people controlling the campaign".

Khallarion wrote: »

You take a broken system and people in need of attention together, and you will see the mess we are noticing in Cyrodiil. Since your arguments were so shallow, I believe you don`t have an idea of what`s happening, neither that you followed the discussion on this topic.

You didnt really have any arguments either though, you just claim that it is the way you say and expect everyone to believe you.

Khallarion

They don`t need to believe on me, they just need to play and stay enough to notice.

It`s just too obvious due the fact that there`re people that stay long periods of time in the game, thus they have their friends, they play together, and they control things due the experience and time they have within the game. If you play everyday, you will notice them, you will know their toons and so on.

What was told is; the game was supposed to play in a way, but it isn`t. It isn`t due different facts, facts that are beyond the game itself, thus people abuse and earn an achievement that doesn`t necessarily means they achieved something. There are some people that are deluding themselves and others.

I`m sure when I say that; if you use another person confidence, while you are in a position of power, in order to benefit yourself or the group you represent, then you`re corrupt and immoral, and what`s what`s happening here. Here it seems you are doing the paper of a lawyer who`s defending a criminal.

Of course every person has their own reasons, and those reasons might be valid within a context, but there`s a limit, and this limit ends when another person`s limits starts, common sense right?

Gaggin

Khallarion wrote: »

Greetings again,

In my personal opinion, these people aren't different from scammers, criminals, slavers, and I'm sure they would do whatever they want in order to achieve what they want in real life, if they had the opportunity. When you play with people, you never know who you are playing with. I would expect that in third world countries, where life is indeed though, and people use all sort of things to take advantage of others, but in those games we have people with jobs, careers, doing these "criminal" acts in the game.

Anyway, I'm not sure if I was able to express myself properly, first because English isn't my main language, and second, because different people understand different things in the same sentence, but I believe it's suffice to say we are dealing with some heavy stuff and topic.

Thank you again for your attention.

You Compare people who farm AP with real life CRIMINALS AND SLAVERS. People who trade SLAVES. Wow... maybe you should look at your own 'moral values' before judging others.

I get why OP puts 'thank you for your attention' at the end of posts, as that is the only purpose of attention-seeking threads like these.

FENGRUSH

Kwoung wrote: »

Yeah, I have seen PUG leaders definitely leading lambs to the slaughter, but it is pretty obvious and time to drop group when you see it happen. Sadly, most people just stay in the group regardless of the fact the leader was definitely working for the other faction.. but thats their choice to stay and get streamrolled at every turn.

This is pretty weird to think people are doing this. Thread should be closed. Poster needs to take a break from the game probably.

Khallarion

Gaggin wrote: »

Khallarion wrote: »

Greetings again,

In my personal opinion, these people aren't different from scammers, criminals, slavers, and I'm sure they would do whatever they want in order to achieve what they want in real life, if they had the opportunity. When you play with people, you never know who you are playing with. I would expect that in third world countries, where life is indeed though, and people use all sort of things to take advantage of others, but in those games we have people with jobs, careers, doing these "criminal" acts in the game.

Anyway, I'm not sure if I was able to express myself properly, first because English isn't my main language, and second, because different people understand different things in the same sentence, but I believe it's suffice to say we are dealing with some heavy stuff and topic.

Thank you again for your attention.

You Compare people who farm AP with real life CRIMINALS AND SLAVERS. People who trade SLAVES. Wow... maybe you should look at your own 'moral values' before judging others.

I get why OP puts 'thank you for your attention' at the end of posts, as that is the only purpose of attention-seeking threads like these.

And you really believe they are far from that!?

Give them the opportunity, allow them to do whatever they want, and you will see the result.

People do and say whatever they want on the internet, because they`re comfortable behind a screen, because they can preserve their identity. If you put those people in an environment without laws, due their own ignorance and selfishness, they will indeed abuse others, no matter if they are in a game, or in real life.

Khallarion

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Yeah, I have seen PUG leaders definitely leading lambs to the slaughter, but it is pretty obvious and time to drop group when you see it happen. Sadly, most people just stay in the group regardless of the fact the leader was definitely working for the other faction.. but thats their choice to stay and get streamrolled at every turn.

This is pretty weird to think people are doing this. Thread should be closed. Poster needs to take a break from the game probably.

Close the thread because people can`t stand reality!? Because it would reveal that you are playing a game with strangers? These people could be anyone, from innocent child playing a game, from a real criminal. Who can guarantee what your legion mate is doing behind the screen, behind your backs?

No, you can`t just close a threat because reality is too harsh. If you`re mature enough, you know how to deal with these things, at least, every parent should, since they allow their kids to stay in front of a game several hours a day, because they work too much, or they don`t want obligations.

We are all adults, we are all talking about the depths of this issue. If you can`t handle that, then it`s better to avoid threats like this one. But you can`t prevent others of expressing their thoughts, their rights, since we are all talking in a civic way here.

Khallarion

Gaggin wrote: »

Khallarion wrote: »

Gaggin wrote: »

Khallarion wrote: »

Greetings again,

In my personal opinion, these people aren't different from scammers, criminals, slavers, and I'm sure they would do whatever they want in order to achieve what they want in real life, if they had the opportunity. When you play with people, you never know who you are playing with. I would expect that in third world countries, where life is indeed though, and people use all sort of things to take advantage of others, but in those games we have people with jobs, careers, doing these "criminal" acts in the game.

Anyway, I'm not sure if I was able to express myself properly, first because English isn't my main language, and second, because different people understand different things in the same sentence, but I believe it's suffice to say we are dealing with some heavy stuff and topic.

Thank you again for your attention.

You Compare people who farm AP with real life CRIMINALS AND SLAVERS. People who trade SLAVES. Wow... maybe you should look at your own 'moral values' before judging others.

I get why OP puts 'thank you for your attention' at the end of posts, as that is the only purpose of attention-seeking threads like these.

And you really believe they are far from that!?

Give them the opportunity, allow them to do whatever they want, and you will see the result.

People do and say whatever they want on the internet, because they`re comfortable behind a screen, because they can preserve their identity. If you put those people in an environment without laws, due their own ignorance and selfishness, they will indeed abuse others, no matter if they are in a game, or in real life.

[Quoted post was removed]

We have google nowadays, you know!

Sometimes we might not be able to express what we want using another language, even with the proper words, but you perfectly understood what I wanted to say. If not, you would need to read all the 20 messages before this last one.

Anyways, feel free to disagree, again, I'm just expressing a point of view through different affirmations that are based on my experience.

VaranisArano

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Yeah, I have seen PUG leaders definitely leading lambs to the slaughter, but it is pretty obvious and time to drop group when you see it happen. Sadly, most people just stay in the group regardless of the fact the leader was definitely working for the other faction.. but thats their choice to stay and get streamrolled at every turn.

This is pretty weird to think people are doing this. Thread should be closed. Poster needs to take a break from the game probably.

Eh, I've seen it before. Once.

Mind, it was a long time ago on the Vivec campaign when I was playing that campaign very regularly. When its the early hours of a new campaign, and there's some new player names never seen before or since gathering up all the EP PUGs and leading them repeatedly to their deaths at locations that are nonsensical or useless, while the regular EP zone generals are trying to give the sensible directions and being belittled by the PUG leader...its a reasonable inference that someone's trolling or trying to help the other team get out to an early lead.

That being said, I've only seen it once - its not the sort of tactic that gets used much because it takes a lot of effort. I mean, there are easier ways to troll than put in the effort to wrangle PUGs into a repeated slaughter when its your buddies that get the AP, you know? And there's no point in doing it to win the campaign in the faction locked campaign anymore because the troll can't swap back to the winning faction.

So while it can happen, its rare, and I'm not sure how ZOS is supposed to take action on it.