My Problem with the Hawk Eye Passive in the Bow Skill Line

GrumpyDuckling

Hawk Eye
"Dealing damage with a Light or Heavy Attack increases the damage of your Bow abilities by 5% for 5 seconds, stacking up to 5 times."

This passive operates like some weird berserker rage or adrenaline rush where you get more powerful as you string attacks together within a tight 5-second window. It just isn't fun to build up power and then have a small window to try to MAINTAIN that power -- especially when bar-swapping to another weapon, or during combat where mechanics force pauses, or in PVP where enemies LOS and consistently break the stacks with ease.

Please, ZOS, change the Hawk Eye passive to something less tedious and frustrating to use.

Zeromaz

Thats a pretty powerful passive. Don’t think it should be a piece of cake to have it up without having to work for it. I am a bow/bow user and think its a fantastic passive

GrumpyDuckling

Zeromaz wrote: »

Thats a pretty powerful passive. Don’t think it should be a piece of cake to have it up without having to work for it. I am a bow/bow user and think its a fantastic passive

I think you're missing the point. Who is asking for the passive to be a piece of cake? I want the passive to be removed in favor of something else that better fits the theme of archery. I think it's stupid to have a large chunk of bow skill damage operate as some kind of berserker/adrenaline rush with a small-window timer that encourages you to spam light/heavy attacks and keep doing so to simply maintain power.

Gilvoth

i have to agree it does need changed to something much more easy to work with.
right now just like the OP said it is frustrating and doesn't line up with reality on its ability to cast, it constantly is broken and unable to engage its ability due to pvp fighting realities.

Gilvoth

Zeromaz wrote: »

Thats a pretty powerful passive. Don’t think it should be a piece of cake to have it up without having to work for it. I am a bow/bow user and think its a fantastic passive

the problem is we are unable to get it to work due to the incredibly small 5 second window when enemies also block it from ever working due to line of sight as well as other effects in pvp that stop it from working.
it needs fixed, changed, altered to be able to cast its effects properly.
right now, its uncastable.

MrBrownstone

That's a PvE passive

GrumpyDuckling

MrBrownstone wrote: »

That's a PvE passive

It has issues in PVE too. Any downtime in any PVE content resets the passive to zero. Archery and a berserker/adrenaline power building mechanic is just a bad mix -- for both PVE and PVP.

Zeromaz

It has its issues in pve too?! Like what? You have to spend 5 seconds light attack weaving? Crazy...

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Thats a pretty powerful passive. Don’t think it should be a piece of cake to have it up without having to work for it. I am a bow/bow user and think its a fantastic passive

I think you're missing the point. Who is asking for the passive to be a piece of cake? I want the passive to be removed in favor of something else that better fits the theme of archery. I think it's stupid to have a large chunk of bow skill damage operate as some kind of berserker/adrenaline rush with a small-window timer that encourages you to spam light/heavy attacks and keep doing so to simply maintain power.

It is not really like an adrenaline rush as it will last as long as the player continues to meet the requirements of the passive with the intent of giving the bow some power on it's own. Five seconds is a long time for someone using a true bow build.

Zos has encouraged weaving basic attacks through a variety of means and this is one of them. It is a legitimate passive and works well for builds that can make a Bow/Bow build work. So it does not encourage a player to spam basic attacks but to weave them into their rotation.

What is great about this is it does not benefit ganker build much as they tend to have to kill faster than one can build up the stacks.

GrumpyDuckling

Zeromaz wrote: »

It has its issues in pve too?! Like what? You have to spend 5 seconds light attack weaving? Crazy...

Not all PVE content has enemies always readily available to attack. Some PVE content has mechanics where enemies do not appear within the 5 second window, resetting the passive. Crazy, huh?

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

It has its issues in pve too?! Like what? You have to spend 5 seconds light attack weaving? Crazy...

Not all PVE content has enemies always readily available to attack. Some PVE content has mechanics where enemies do not appear within the 5 second window, resetting the passive. Crazy, huh?

This is no different than having to reset dots. It is part of combat in those fights and is intended.

Recapitated

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

It has its issues in pve too?! Like what? You have to spend 5 seconds light attack weaving? Crazy...

Not all PVE content has enemies always readily available to attack. Some PVE content has mechanics where enemies do not appear within the 5 second window, resetting the passive. Crazy, huh?

Besides that you're not going back to your bow bar every 5 seconds even parsing on a dummy

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Thats a pretty powerful passive. Don’t think it should be a piece of cake to have it up without having to work for it. I am a bow/bow user and think its a fantastic passive

I think you're missing the point. Who is asking for the passive to be a piece of cake? I want the passive to be removed in favor of something else that better fits the theme of archery. I think it's stupid to have a large chunk of bow skill damage operate as some kind of berserker/adrenaline rush with a small-window timer that encourages you to spam light/heavy attacks and keep doing so to simply maintain power.

It is not really like an adrenaline rush as it will last as long as the player continues to meet the requirements of the passive with the intent of giving the bow some power on it's own. Five seconds is a long time for someone using a true bow build.

Zos has encouraged weaving basic attacks through a variety of means and this is one of them. It is a legitimate passive and works well for builds that can make a Bow/Bow build work. So it does not encourage a player to spam basic attacks but to weave them into their rotation.

What is great about this is it does not benefit ganker build much as they tend to have to kill faster than one can build up the stacks.

You can nitpick about "adrenaline rush" as one of the descriptors, but the point remains -- it's out of place with an archery theme where the bow weirdly builds up power over time by stacking light/heavy attacks. And then that power disappears if your next light/heavy attack comes out at 6 seconds instead of 5.

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

It has its issues in pve too?! Like what? You have to spend 5 seconds light attack weaving? Crazy...

Not all PVE content has enemies always readily available to attack. Some PVE content has mechanics where enemies do not appear within the 5 second window, resetting the passive. Crazy, huh?

This is no different than having to reset dots. It is part of combat in those fights and is intended.

This is most certainly different than having to reset dots.

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

Thats a pretty powerful passive. Don’t think it should be a piece of cake to have it up without having to work for it. I am a bow/bow user and think its a fantastic passive

I think you're missing the point. Who is asking for the passive to be a piece of cake? I want the passive to be removed in favor of something else that better fits the theme of archery. I think it's stupid to have a large chunk of bow skill damage operate as some kind of berserker/adrenaline rush with a small-window timer that encourages you to spam light/heavy attacks and keep doing so to simply maintain power.

It is not really like an adrenaline rush as it will last as long as the player continues to meet the requirements of the passive with the intent of giving the bow some power on it's own. Five seconds is a long time for someone using a true bow build.

Zos has encouraged weaving basic attacks through a variety of means and this is one of them. It is a legitimate passive and works well for builds that can make a Bow/Bow build work. So it does not encourage a player to spam basic attacks but to weave them into their rotation.

What is great about this is it does not benefit ganker build much as they tend to have to kill faster than one can build up the stacks.

You can nitpick about "adrenaline rush" as one of the descriptors, but the point remains -- it's out of place with an archery theme where the bow weirdly builds up power over time by stacking light/heavy attacks. And then that power disappears if your next light/heavy attack comes out at 6 seconds instead of 5.

It is a fantasy game. Is this any weirder than throwing ice or lightning from a stick? It does seem as though I am nitpicking after all.

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Zeromaz wrote: »

It has its issues in pve too?! Like what? You have to spend 5 seconds light attack weaving? Crazy...

Not all PVE content has enemies always readily available to attack. Some PVE content has mechanics where enemies do not appear within the 5 second window, resetting the passive. Crazy, huh?

This is no different than having to reset dots. It is part of combat in those fights and is intended.

This is most certainly different than having to reset dots.

True, they are different, but in the end, they have similar effects as one has to build things back up. It does not take long to build that back up either.

nesakinter

Please no, without it Bow/Bow builds won't even be possible in PvE. It is literally the only advantage front-barring bow has over back-bar bow like every PvE stam build. If you change it for something more universal, bow-bow builds will die with it. It is a primarily a PvE passive. Also not all passives have to be easy to use (not that LA is hard or anything). It is not meant to have 100% uptime (it has 25% damage boost, which is the biggest in the game). Also, there are certain builds, which use it to its max potential in PvP as well.

YandereGirlfriend

This is an example of a very well thought-through passive.

It specifically buffs Bow/Bow builds that would otherwise be woefully under-powered compared to traditional builds while escaping adding power to Bow back-bar and PvP ganking builds. I honestly wish that more passives functioned this elegantly.

GrumpyDuckling

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This is an example of a very well thought-through passive.

It specifically buffs Bow/Bow builds that would otherwise be woefully under-powered compared to traditional builds while escaping adding power to Bow back-bar and PvP ganking builds. I honestly wish that more passives functioned this elegantly.

I disagree. I see it as a stupid, timer-based, berserker mini-game that doesn't fit into the theme of archery. There are other ways that bow/bow could be buffed without forcing a mini-game onto the player.

Araneae6537

Edit: Deleted comment, sorry; I don’t know why I was thinking of the Bosmer passive Hunter’s Eye instead of the Bow passive Hawk Eye, other than as a Bosmer stamblade main, it is quick to come to mind as a passive I’m unhappy about!

CP5

Its not beserk, its about building up momentum then using the bows range advantage to keep attacking your target. And like YandereGirlfriend said, it is a passive that significantly buffs a bows sustained damage over time without buffing its burst damage or its damage on bow backbar builds.

Zeromaz

CP5 wrote: »

Its not beserk, its about building up momentum then using the bows range advantage to keep attacking your target. And like YandereGirlfriend said, it is a passive that significantly buffs a bows sustained damage over time without buffing its burst damage or its damage on bow backbar builds.

Weird concept for some.. a passive that rewards you for using the weapon that gives the passive. Its not a reward for using bow once every 12 seconds so i guess thats why some people are upset. I love the passive and wouldn’t want to give it up

YandereGirlfriend

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This is an example of a very well thought-through passive.

It specifically buffs Bow/Bow builds that would otherwise be woefully under-powered compared to traditional builds while escaping adding power to Bow back-bar and PvP ganking builds. I honestly wish that more passives functioned this elegantly.

I disagree. I see it as a stupid, timer-based, berserker mini-game that doesn't fit into the theme of archery. There are other ways that bow/bow could be buffed without forcing a mini-game onto the player.

I mean, it requires you to Light Attack, so if you are one of those anti-Light Attack people, then I don't know what to tell you except that that is how current game mechanics are set up and you either deal with it or you don't.

As for the "theme" of archery, what does that mean? What passives in Dual Wield or 2H feel like those activities either? Not saying that things couldn't potentially be better but I'm honestly not sure what you're asking for.

Generally speaking, in this thread I detect people who are anti-Light Attack and/or just want something to further empower their ganks. Not saying that applies to you but it is the implicit (or sometimes explicit!) thrust of most of the arguments made.

idk

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This is an example of a very well thought-through passive.

It specifically buffs Bow/Bow builds that would otherwise be woefully under-powered compared to traditional builds while escaping adding power to Bow back-bar and PvP ganking builds. I honestly wish that more passives functioned this elegantly.

I disagree. I see it as a stupid, timer-based, berserker mini-game that doesn't fit into the theme of archery. There are other ways that bow/bow could be buffed without forcing a mini-game onto the player.

I mean, it requires you to Light Attack, so if you are one of those anti-Light Attack people, then I don't know what to tell you except that that is how current game mechanics are set up and you either deal with it or you don't.

As for the "theme" of archery, what does that mean? What passives in Dual Wield or 2H feel like those activities either? Not saying that things couldn't potentially be better but I'm honestly not sure what you're asking for.

Generally speaking, in this thread I detect people who are anti-Light Attack and/or just want something to further empower their ganks. Not saying that applies to you but it is the implicit (or sometimes explicit!) thrust of most of the arguments made.

Well said. I agree. Especially since it is not hard to weave a basic attack which is all it really requires.

I do like how you ponder about the "theme" and the passives of other weapon lines.

GrumpyDuckling

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This is an example of a very well thought-through passive.

It specifically buffs Bow/Bow builds that would otherwise be woefully under-powered compared to traditional builds while escaping adding power to Bow back-bar and PvP ganking builds. I honestly wish that more passives functioned this elegantly.

I disagree. I see it as a stupid, timer-based, berserker mini-game that doesn't fit into the theme of archery. There are other ways that bow/bow could be buffed without forcing a mini-game onto the player.

I mean, it requires you to Light Attack, so if you are one of those anti-Light Attack people, then I don't know what to tell you except that that is how current game mechanics are set up and you either deal with it or you don't.

As for the "theme" of archery, what does that mean? What passives in Dual Wield or 2H feel like those activities either? Not saying that things couldn't potentially be better but I'm honestly not sure what you're asking for.

Generally speaking, in this thread I detect people who are anti-Light Attack and/or just want something to further empower their ganks. Not saying that applies to you but it is the implicit (or sometimes explicit!) thrust of most of the arguments made.

Archery theme is simply the concept of shooting a bow and arrow, and the feel that goes along with it. The Hawk Eye mini-game is just silly and doesn't feel like an archery mechanic when you stack arrows within a 5 second window to boost the damage of your bow. That mechanic feels more berserker/adrenaline rush to me and I think it would be a better fit on a melee-type weapon.

If you're worried about gankers in the event of a passive change, then the damage numbers on bow skills like snipe could be lowered to compensate. Light attacks are fine, I don't have an issue with those -- but I do have an issue with this Hawk Eye mini-game that doesn't fit the theme of archery.

idk

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This is an example of a very well thought-through passive.

It specifically buffs Bow/Bow builds that would otherwise be woefully under-powered compared to traditional builds while escaping adding power to Bow back-bar and PvP ganking builds. I honestly wish that more passives functioned this elegantly.

I disagree. I see it as a stupid, timer-based, berserker mini-game that doesn't fit into the theme of archery. There are other ways that bow/bow could be buffed without forcing a mini-game onto the player.

I mean, it requires you to Light Attack, so if you are one of those anti-Light Attack people, then I don't know what to tell you except that that is how current game mechanics are set up and you either deal with it or you don't.

As for the "theme" of archery, what does that mean? What passives in Dual Wield or 2H feel like those activities either? Not saying that things couldn't potentially be better but I'm honestly not sure what you're asking for.

Generally speaking, in this thread I detect people who are anti-Light Attack and/or just want something to further empower their ganks. Not saying that applies to you but it is the implicit (or sometimes explicit!) thrust of most of the arguments made.

Archery theme is simply the concept of shooting a bow and arrow, and the feel that goes along with it. The Hawk Eye mini-game is just silly and doesn't feel like an archery mechanic when you stack arrows within a 5 second window to boost the damage of your bow. That mechanic feels more berserker/adrenaline rush to me and I think it would be a better fit on a melee-type weapon.

If you're worried about gankers in the event of a passive change, then the damage numbers on bow skills like snipe could be lowered to compensate. Light attacks are fine, I don't have an issue with those -- but I do have an issue with this Hawk Eye mini-game that doesn't fit the theme of archery.

Firing off a basic attack is shooting a boss and arrow by definition. That is an arrow that flies off and hits the target.

That five-second timeframe is only the time the buff will last unless it is refreshed. A player can take as long as 20 seconds to get all the stacks for the buff (firing off a basic attack once every four seconds) and as long as they hit a target with a basic attack at least once every five seconds after that they keep the buff.

It is a nice buff that rewards skillful gameplay for builds that keep sustained damage from the bow. That seems to be the intent and it works well within that framing.

@YandereGirlfriend spoke well in their reply.

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

This is an example of a very well thought-through passive.

It specifically buffs Bow/Bow builds that would otherwise be woefully under-powered compared to traditional builds while escaping adding power to Bow back-bar and PvP ganking builds. I honestly wish that more passives functioned this elegantly.

I disagree. I see it as a stupid, timer-based, berserker mini-game that doesn't fit into the theme of archery. There are other ways that bow/bow could be buffed without forcing a mini-game onto the player.

I mean, it requires you to Light Attack, so if you are one of those anti-Light Attack people, then I don't know what to tell you except that that is how current game mechanics are set up and you either deal with it or you don't.

As for the "theme" of archery, what does that mean? What passives in Dual Wield or 2H feel like those activities either? Not saying that things couldn't potentially be better but I'm honestly not sure what you're asking for.

Generally speaking, in this thread I detect people who are anti-Light Attack and/or just want something to further empower their ganks. Not saying that applies to you but it is the implicit (or sometimes explicit!) thrust of most of the arguments made.

Archery theme is simply the concept of shooting a bow and arrow, and the feel that goes along with it. The Hawk Eye mini-game is just silly and doesn't feel like an archery mechanic when you stack arrows within a 5 second window to boost the damage of your bow. That mechanic feels more berserker/adrenaline rush to me and I think it would be a better fit on a melee-type weapon.

If you're worried about gankers in the event of a passive change, then the damage numbers on bow skills like snipe could be lowered to compensate. Light attacks are fine, I don't have an issue with those -- but I do have an issue with this Hawk Eye mini-game that doesn't fit the theme of archery.

Firing off a basic attack is shooting a boss and arrow by definition. That is an arrow that flies off and hits the target.

That five-second timeframe is only the time the buff will last unless it is refreshed. A player can take as long as 20 seconds to get all the stacks for the buff (firing off a basic attack once every four seconds) and as long as they hit a target with a basic attack at least once every five seconds after that they keep the buff.

It is a nice buff that rewards skillful gameplay for builds that keep sustained damage from the bow. That seems to be the intent and it works well within that framing.

@YandereGirlfriend spoke well in their reply.

That's nice. The Hawk Eye passive still doesn't fit the archery theme.

Vajrak

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

That's nice. The Hawk Eye passive still doesn't fit the archery theme.

No, it doesn't fit YOUR personal theme of Archery.

2h has Power-up -- which encourages you to Heavy Weave for a 10% damage boost to your next direct damage attack.

DW has all of it's damage tied to DW skills (besides Blade and Blunt).

Bow has -- Hawk Eye, which you can get up to max in the first 5-6 seconds of a fight, and then just need one LA every 5s to maintain it. In combination with Long Shots, for pure archer builds, it gives you a potential 25% bow skill bonus and up to 12% range bonus -- makes bow/bow extremely powerful and is easy as hell to maintain for an ARCHER.

It would be punishing you if you had to land all of the attacks on the same target, but it doesn't, just land light attacks at all, and you get the damage bonus up. That goes a long way to compensate for the fact that bows, as a ranged weapon, have lower weapon damage to begin with.

GrumpyDuckling

Vajrak wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

That's nice. The Hawk Eye passive still doesn't fit the archery theme.

No, it doesn't fit YOUR personal theme of Archery.

2h has Power-up -- which encourages you to Heavy Weave for a 10% damage boost to your next direct damage attack.

DW has all of it's damage tied to DW skills (besides Blade and Blunt).

Bow has -- Hawk Eye, which you can get up to max in the first 5-6 seconds of a fight, and then just need one LA every 5s to maintain it. In combination with Long Shots, for pure archer builds, it gives you a potential 25% bow skill bonus and up to 12% range bonus -- makes bow/bow extremely powerful and is easy as hell to maintain for an ARCHER.

It would be punishing you if you had to land all of the attacks on the same target, but it doesn't, just land light attacks at all, and you get the damage bonus up. That goes a long way to compensate for the fact that bows, as a ranged weapon, have lower weapon damage to begin with.

My personal theme of archery? How does a damage-building time-dependent mini-game fit into anyone's theme of archery? It has nothing to do with archery.

"That goes a long way to compensate for the fact that bows, as a ranged weapon, have lower weapon damage to begin with."
Maybe that low damage to begin with has something to do with gating 25% damage behind a stupid mini-game maintenance passive...?

nesakinter

If you think Hawk Eye is so bad, then suggest a changed passive which satisfies the following conditions

• Buffs mainly front-bar bow.
• Does not buff back-bar bow in PvE context.
• Hard to keep up to justify the huge boost.
• Takes time to build up, therefore does not buff gank builds.
• Can be used freely in both PvE and PvP, when directly going for it.

Hawk Eye satisfies all the above, so why fix what's not broken.

idk

Vajrak wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

That's nice. The Hawk Eye passive still doesn't fit the archery theme.

No, it doesn't fit YOUR personal theme of Archery.

I think this sums it up. It very much meets the criteria OP stated as being the archery theme. It fits it perfectly.

GrumpyDuckling

idk wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

That's nice. The Hawk Eye passive still doesn't fit the archery theme.

No, it doesn't fit YOUR personal theme of Archery.

I think this sums it up. It very much meets the criteria OP stated as being the archery theme. It fits it perfectly.

Nope. How does a damage-building time-dependent mini-game fit into anyone's theme of archery? It has nothing to do with archery.