First time trying to make a hybrid build, how bad have i messed up?

aurelius_fx

https://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/build-planer#f1,r7,c1,18:2,19:2,20:2,21:2,22:1,25:1,34:1,65:3,66:3,67:3,87:2,88:2,102:2,103:2,104:2,105:2,106:2,201:1,330:1,348:1,353:1,360:1,361:2,362:2,363:2,364:2,365:2,388:1,390:1,397:1,400:1,404:1,405:2,406:2,407:2,415:1,418:1,422:1,426:2,427:2,428:2,429:2,639:1,662:1;360:25:22:348:422:662;330:400:418:390:415:388;7;32,25,7;2,0,5;;0,0,0;2,3;

This is the link to it. I wanted to do something with sword and board/heavy armor because i never had a build with it, but i'd also to like it PVP viable. I have never reached level 50 so i'm completely clueless about CP points and equipment. Is there anything i could do to better it? I'm particularly doubtful about attribute points, since despite my main spammable being a stamina ability, most of my other skills are magicka based.

Udrath

Maybe heavy shackle breaker or Eternal vigor/blood-thorn, 1 Domihaus with malacath as imperial race . Big sustain, decent damage. Never tried it personally just an idea.


I recommend checking out kristofer builds for hybrids. Usually a good place to see other hybrid builds in action and seeing what works, then build up from there.

EtTuBrutus

Ev/wp is good on any hybrid.

aurelius_fx

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Ev/wp is good on any hybrid.

What does Ev/wp means?

EtTuBrutus

Eternal vigor and willows path.

Araneae6537

aurelius_fx wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Ev/wp is good on any hybrid.

What does Ev/wp means?

Looking over an alphabetical list of ESO sets, I’d say that EV stands for Eternal Vigor and WP for Willow’s Path. Both of those focus on health and resources. With the goal of a (hopefully) higher damage hybrid, I’m looking at trying out a combo of Shacklebreaker and New Moon Acolyte. Maybe that won’t work nearly so well as I hope but it will be fun to try.

aurelius_fx

Araneae6537 wrote: »

aurelius_fx wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Ev/wp is good on any hybrid.

What does Ev/wp means?

Looking over an alphabetical list of ESO sets, I’d say that EV stands for Eternal Vigor and WP for Willow’s Path. Both of those focus on health and resources. With the goal of a (hopefully) higher damage hybrid, I’m looking at trying out a combo of Shacklebreaker and New Moon Acolyte. Maybe that won’t work nearly so well as I hope but it will be fun to try.

Thanks! From what i'm noticing so far armor seems to matter the most onto a build, and not really the skills, as long as there is some sort of balance for your role. Is that true? My doubts initially were all from what skills i were using (if they complimented each other well) and my attribute points, if they were properly distributed for my needs.

EtTuBrutus

aurelius_fx wrote: »

Araneae6537 wrote: »

aurelius_fx wrote: »

EtTuBrutus wrote: »

Ev/wp is good on any hybrid.

What does Ev/wp means?

Looking over an alphabetical list of ESO sets, I’d say that EV stands for Eternal Vigor and WP for Willow’s Path. Both of those focus on health and resources. With the goal of a (hopefully) higher damage hybrid, I’m looking at trying out a combo of Shacklebreaker and New Moon Acolyte. Maybe that won’t work nearly so well as I hope but it will be fun to try.

Thanks! From what i'm noticing so far armor seems to matter the most onto a build, and not really the skills, as long as there is some sort of balance for your role. Is that true? My doubts initially were all from what skills i were using (if they complimented each other well) and my attribute points, if they were properly distributed for my needs.

For a hybrid, skills matter incredibly. Everything youll be using will be watered down, you only have the advantage of skill combinations you typically couldn't manage otherwise.

Dks hybrid the best. Major savagery, prophecy, sorcery and brutality in 2 skills.

Metemsycosis

The "watered down" depends. Malacath changes everything.

You can use the frontloaded cp system to increase weapon and magic damage simultaneously and just dump your crit mod cp

EtTuBrutus

Metemsycosis wrote: »

The "watered down" depends. Malacath changes everything.

You can use the frontloaded cp system to increase weapon and magic damage simultaneously and just dump your crit mod cp

But the skills are never going to be as strong as focusing. That's water down means here.

Metemsycosis

Clever NMA Balorgh is one example of a build that builds damage in both directions (highly).

Yeah watered down by like 300 effective damage from max stat loss.

Malacath more than makes up for that.

EtTuBrutus

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Clever NMA Balorgh is one example of a build that builds damage in both directions (highly).

Yeah watered down by like 300 effective damage from max stat loss.

Malacath more than makes up for that.

You think a hybrid build would only have 3000 stam AND(you need both pools) mag less than a non hybrid? You also have 0 sustain, which is a big challenge for hybrid builds. Going nma/ca would get good damage. But you'd need to make your hybrid focus damage on either stam or mag and utility on the other. May as well actually focus on one (stam)

Have you actually ever made a hybrid? Nma/ca would get you about 10 casts before you're put of both resources, unless u sack that dmg your after forb the sustain you need. If you're after a burst hybrid, just build stam or mag. It's better (hence not watered down).

aurelius_fx

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Clever NMA Balorgh is one example of a build that builds damage in both directions (highly).

Yeah watered down by like 300 effective damage from max stat loss.

Malacath more than makes up for that.

Do you need the proper DLCs to obtain those items? I currently only have the base game, without ESO plus or any of the DLCs.

EtTuBrutus

aurelius_fx wrote: »

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Clever NMA Balorgh is one example of a build that builds damage in both directions (highly).

Yeah watered down by like 300 effective damage from max stat loss.

Malacath more than makes up for that.

Do you need the proper DLCs to obtain those items? I currently only have the base game, without ESO plus or any of the DLCs.

You'd need someone to craft both sets for you. You'd need eso plus to go after balorgh unless uve gotten it off of the golden/ undaunted vendor.

You're gonna have a bad time trying to make a heavy armor hybrid with those 2 sets. Neglecting everything but damage is something only pure stamina builds can pull off bar gank/ bombs.

Metemsycosis

Brutus
To compare my stamblade has 28k stam 27k health and 15k Magicka while my hybrid sorc has 26k mag 27k health and 26k stam -- both hit around 3.8k damage but stamblade has master bow so hits harder. Not getting much from max stat tho.

Jewelry can be enchanted with tri recovery glyphs in triune traits.

3x is like 200 each regen + engine guardian instead of balorgh, and let nma+CA carry the damage with malacath.

EtTuBrutus

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Brutus
To compare my stamblade has 28k stam 27k health and 15k Magicka while my hybrid sorc has 26k mag 27k health and 26k stam -- both hit around 3.8k damage but stamblade has master bow so hits harder. Not getting much from max stat tho.

Jewelry can be enchanted with tri recovery glyphs in triune traits.

3x is like 200 each regen + engine guardian instead of balorgh, and let nma+CA carry the damage with malacath.

So you've adjusted balorghs AND jewelry for regen, a massive damage difference in damage (watered down). Are both of those builds in nma/ca? Is your cp split (watered down)? I'm not saying they can't be decent. Im dating thier main strength, since everything else is watered down, it's skill diversity.

Id love to see your builds either way. Hybrids are fun to play.

Metemsycosis

Yeah the other way is keep balorgh but drop nma for EV (I would have to farm helms to run this myself).

It would be neat if there hybrid damage glyphs too

My point is your streak with a hybrid running 7.5k esd might hit the same if you had a magsorc running 40k magicka and 3k spell damage. Watered down sure but much closer than it used to be.

It's not only utility. A hybrid sorc can combo a dizzy dbos with mages wrath and curse. Dodge and streak for its defense. I've seen hybrid sorcs snag heals off pets. Idk I'd do that but you could.

As long as you have penetration in both sources of damage and malacath seems you would do decent damage. Id say the main spammables are watered down but some are not...

EtTuBrutus

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Yeah the other way is keep balorgh but drop nma for EV (I would have to farm helms to run this myself).

It would be neat if there hybrid damage glyphs too

My point is your streak with a hybrid running 7.5k esd might hit the same if you had a magsorc running 40k magicka and 3k spell damage. Watered down sure but much closer than it used to be.

It's not only utility. A hybrid sorc can combo a dizzy dbos with mages wrath and curse. Dodge and streak for its defense. I've seen hybrid sorcs snag heals off pets. Idk I'd do that but you could.

As long as you have penetration in both sources of damage and malacath seems you would do decent damage. Id say the main spammables are watered down but some are not...

That's my point.

Skill diversity is a hybrids strength.

fred4

Without having looked over your build, because I'm feeling lazy right now: The game has been at a point for a while where you have so many skill choices, both stamina and magicka, that making a competitive hybrid usually doesn't pan out. Try and make a hybrid in a build editor - I'm more familiar with UESP, which is why I didn't study yours - then look at it and turn it either into a pure magicka or pure stamina build. In 99% of cases you'll find the build gets stronger as a pure build, because there is no killer combination of magicka and stamina skills (nor proc sets really) that doesn't have a better equivalent in a pure build.

Hybrids have always suffered from there being separate spell crit and weapon crit, separate penetration buffs and from your magicka / stamina stats influencing damage. These factors are being mitigated more and more with hybrid set choices and homogenised buffs, but you're still left with magicka or stamina-centric enchants and mundus stones. Above all: What's the motivation? If there isn't some killer hybrid skill combo you're going for or some (proc) set combination, there isn't one from a performance point of view.

I find hybrids are also tricky to play. You have to build them just right so you pull equally from your two stat pools on average and then you have to train yourself to actually do that. You're either going to find a build where such a rotation comes naturally or your're going to have to force yourself to adapt your playstyle. Probably a bit of both. There's a lot of fun in making new builds and doing this, but I just felt like emphasizing that's what you're in for. The problem with hybrids is that the payoff doesn't tend to be there in terms of how they perform.

Finally: Torc of Tonal Constancy. Eternal Vigor is a very good set in my experience. You'll be on mag / stam regen most of the time and get health regen when you need it. It works and it works well on non-hybrid builds, especially sorcs. However if there ever was a case for the Torc, it would be on a true hybrid build. It's not that great a piece for pure builds in my experience. If I was making a hybrid, I would aim to use the Torc for sustain so I could find a lot of damage elsewhere.

aurelius_fx

fred4 wrote: »

-snip-

I was planning on using DK magicka abilities mostly to buff myself, shield up and heal. I'd stamina abilities for spammables and debuffs, to avoid having to bother with magicka penetration/damage buffs, and in case i got out of magicka i could heavy attack with my back bar resto staff. I'm trying to do this build mostly for challange and fun, but with also some PVP in mind. Is it possible to buy that "Torc of Tonal Constancy" item? I'm still on early levels so i'm not sure if i should be bothering with equipment at all right now.

ichsuisme

I just made a hybrid dk on pts then on live. I’ve used it in bgs with decent success. Once the AoeE tests finish I’ll try it in cyrodiil.

I’m wearing: medium pelinal, chudan monster set, Malacath’s band, 2 pieces of trainee infused weapon damage jewelry, asylum 2h, vateshran resto back bar.

I have about 4400 spell and weapon damage. Dizzy swing procs my flame lash. And with the major breach changes, starting tomorrow, toxic breath will provide penetration for my non-Stam skills too.

It’s nice to use vigor and regen. Looking forward to getting the vateshran resto on live, on the pts it was providing a lot of resources.

I don’t think hybrid builds are quite top tier yet, but it seems like they get better every patch. Max stats still really hold it back.



As far as your build goes. You don’t seem to have any real offensive magicka skills on your bars. It’s mostly buff and some utility skills. It could still work depending on set choices but why not just stick to stamina? Sword and board is also still pretty lackluster as far as damage goes. It’s fun to power bash someone and get a kill but generally it has always held my builds back, as far as damage goes.

fred4

aurelius_fx wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

-snip-

I was planning on using DK magicka abilities mostly to buff myself, shield up and heal. I'd stamina abilities for spammables and debuffs, to avoid having to bother with magicka penetration/damage buffs

That's called a stamina build. What really defines a hybrid in my book is using mixed weapon skills or mixed heals that scale with your offenisve stats. On the healing front that's hardly necessary. Cauterize scales with your highest stat anyway and Dragon Blood (not that I'd use it) scales with health.

Using a resto staff on a stamina build can be neat. I recall an old stamsorc build doing it, but stamsorc has a strong motivation: Dark Deal. Stam DK doesn't need magicka. Fragmented Shield, Cauterize and Volatile / Hardened Armor are standard on stam DK and don't require additional sustain beyond base. A build that uses magicka skills only for utility is called a stamina build.

There are some nice skills that you might like further sustain for, such as Fossilize and wings, but (a) that doesn't make you a hybrid and (b) you tend to gimp yourself. My first character is a DK and my own journey over the past 5 years has basically taken me through that. I finally arrived at a just slightly off meta PvP build and my DK has been performing all the better for it.

If you want to build something unusual, by all means do. That's what the game is all about. It's just that (a) your current thinking is basically an off-beat stamina build and (b) be prepared for disappointment in how it performs. Back barring a resto, for example, is something I've mostly given up on, even on magicka PvP builds. DK has a blocking passive. Play into that, if you want to survive and use a 1H + Shield back bar. 1H + Shield was once very good for offense, but has been heavily nerfed. Furthermore you will find yourself in situations where you need to refresh multiple buffs and heal. It helps if you can block while doing that. A 1H + Shield back bar works well and this is what I use on magplar and magden as well. A resto heavy attack, by contrast, leaves you wide open and blocking with a resto staff is weak. It doesn't block enough damage and kills your stamina quickly.

I can see a point to front-barring a heal, such as Rally or Resolving Vigor. I can't see a point in blocking on your front bar. You should not block, or only very rarely, when you're on the attack. You should pressure your opponent at that point in time, so they're on the defensive and put less damage into you. If you block, you lose light attack damage, you lose mobility and you consume too much stamina. This is my case for relegating 1H + Shield to the back bar these days.

That said, I'm only trying to point out what is IMHO effective. There is a whole counter-argument that what's effective isn't necessarily the most fun. For example I prefer speed and sustain both over having the best damage and being the tankiest character in PvP. Perhaps your hybrid build plays well and is enjoyable for you, then that's all that counts. If you're not yet sure about that, though, then I recommend you start with duelling ... and only golding out items that are truly necessary to have in gold, e.g. weapons.

it possible to buy that "Torc of Tonal Constancy" item?

No. It's a mythic item.

DTStormfox

Since you are going Dragonknight hybrid, Pelinal's Aptitude may also be a beneficial set because casting an Earthen Heart ability increases Weapon damage (because you get Minor Brutality from the Mountain's Blessing passive), which then translates into spell damage by this set. Meaning that by buffing your weapon damage, you simultaneously can get decent spell damage values by using this set.

aurelius_fx

fred4 wrote: »

Back barring a resto, for example, is something I've mostly given up on, even on magicka PvP builds. DK has a blocking passive. Play into that, if you want to survive and use a 1H + Shield back bar. 1H + Shield was once very good for offense, but has been heavily nerfed. Furthermore you will find yourself in situations where you need to refresh multiple buffs and heal. It helps if you can block while doing that. A 1H + Shield back bar works well and this is what I use on magplar and magden as well. A resto heavy attack, by contrast, leaves you wide open and blocking with a resto staff is weak. It doesn't block enough damage and kills your stamina quickly.

I can see a point to front-barring a heal, such as Rally or Resolving Vigor. I can't see a point in blocking on your front bar. You should not block, or only very rarely, when you're on the attack. You should pressure your opponent at that point in time, so they're on the defensive and put less damage into you. If you block, you lose light attack damage, you lose mobility and you consume too much stamina. This is my case for relegating 1H + Shield to the back bar these days.

Thank you, that's very informative. I have switched the back bar resto for another shield+sword and decided to just use Resolving Vigor to heal instead. I have also switched Fossilize on my front to a ranged shield charge stun ability to combo with Flame Lash, to also receive healing. I'm not having the opportunity to play very often due to issues with my computer right now but i'm excited to see how it works out. I'm aware how much i'm gimping myself by doing all of that but i took upon myself the challenge of trying to do a sword and board main bar. Do you think another class would suit the playstyle better? If it goes bad i might just switch to full on tank, supporting my team and possibly stunning/debuffing the enemy.

DTStormfox wrote: »

Since you are going Dragonknight hybrid, Pelinal's Aptitude may also be a beneficial set because casting an Earthen Heart ability increases Weapon damage (because you get Minor Brutality from the Mountain's Blessing passive), which then translates into spell damage by this set. Meaning that by buffing your weapon damage, you simultaneously can get decent spell damage values by using this set.

That might help a lot on Flame Lash/Venomous Claw, thanks!

This is how the build looks right now:
http://www.eso-skillfactory.com/en/share/43851/
I'm still not very sure about equipment but i'm planning on doing something with Pelinal's or Barlogh now. I might switch the shield skill tree ult for Magma Armor (unsure which morph is the best for that)

Baphomet

You have to mix new moon and shacklebreaker - works better than any other combo in my experience.

And sorc and wardens are prolly the only good class choices for PvP.

aurelius_fx

Baphomet wrote: »

And sorc and wardens are prolly the only good class choices for PvP.

Can you explain why?

fred4

aurelius_fx wrote: »

Baphomet wrote: »

And sorc and wardens are prolly the only good class choices for PvP.

Can you explain why?

I bet he can't , cause it's not that simple.

If you're a solo player in open world, then IMO sorc and NB rule, because of the ability to disengage from a fight with Streak, Shadow Image and Cloak. Magsorc and stamblade are the stronger variants.

Warden is an odd choice. Stamden is strong, but it seems to me that it's been overshadowed by stamcro lately, mainly because Blastbones can be aimed and because that grants Major Defile. Magden isn't as highly rated, but lends itself to group ice / snare control builds.

Nothing wrong with mag DK for group play. Last group I was in the leader kept asking for one, e.g. due to it's ability to be a talon-spamming nuisance. It's also a very good choice for a true hybrid Pelinal's build, having access to both Major and Minor Brutality - albeit with the caveats to building a hybrid already mentioned.

As a small-scale / solo player I'm not fond of mag DK, because I don't like it's healing mechanics, which I find overly complicated. I think you want to have a very good sense of your rotation on that class. Stam DK, on the other hand, is quite a straightforward class to play. I prefer it over warden, because Take Flight is such a fantastic ultimate.

SeveN085

Does anyone know if spell strat 5th bonus will translate to weapon damage with pelinal since it's technically not a standard spell power buff ?


Spell Strategist

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you place a mark over your target for 5 seconds, granting you 460 Spell Damage against your marked target. This effect can occur every 4 seconds.

fred4

SeveN085 wrote: »

Does anyone know if spell strat 5th bonus will translate to weapon damage with pelinal since it's technically not a standard spell power buff ?


Spell Strategist

(2 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) When you deal damage with a Light Attack, you place a mark over your target for 5 seconds, granting you 460 Spell Damage against your marked target. This effect can occur every 4 seconds.

Sorry, I don't know, but it's an odd question to ask. Most Pelnal's builds go for medium armor, because of the +15% weapon damage from that armor type. There is no equivalent spell damage multiplier. This causes most, if not all, Pelinal's builds to translate weapon damage to spell damage, not the other way around.

Spell Strategist is also single target and has recently been nerfed. It's not even a good set anymore - definitely overnerfed. With so many other spell / weapon damage sets recently buffed, this set IMO deserved a slight buff, not a nerf, considering it's attached to a single target and it's short duration, which makes it less effective to back bar than other sets.

To the best of my knowledge the Spell Strategist buff is boosted by Major Sorcery, therefore it stands to reason that it might work with Pelinal's. However you'd have to test that, if you still want to go down that road.

StarOfElyon

Baphomet wrote: »

You have to mix new moon and shacklebreaker - works better than any other combo in my experience.

And sorc and wardens are prolly the only good class choices for PvP.

I was using that on my hybrid for a long while but it only got me so far still. I feel much stronger (at the cost of some sustain) using New Moon and Innate Axiom. Unfortunately, I still suffer from being too squishy and not having enough punch to finish kills.

Playing a hybrid is really difficult IF you are using both stamina and magicka skills to do damage, which is what a true hybrid does in my opinion. I have to give up so much to try to be balanced. Unlike others who min/max their characters. And teammates in BGs let me know how little they appreciate me.

StarOfElyon

I have an idea for how ZOS can help hybrid builds though:

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I think hybrid characters could use some help and the way I think it can be done is by changing some of the armor skill passives. I think by lowering the minimum for some bonuses from 5 pieces to 3 pieces, it would allow characters to wear 3 pieces of two different armor weights and gain the advantages of both, while still not feeling unbalanced.

Instead of using a 5-1-1 set-up or a 5-2 set-up, I can choose to use a 3-3-1 set-up or a 3-2-2 set-up. It opens up more combinations and allows for hybrids to be competitive.

Thoughts?

LIGHT ARMOR

GRACE:
- Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 4% per piece of light armor worn.
- Reduces the cost of Sprint by 3% per piece of light armor worn.

EVOCATION:
- Increases your Magicka Recovery by 4% for each piece of Light Armor equipped.
- Reduces the Magicka Cost of your abilities by 2% for each piece of Light Armor equipped.

SPELL WARDING:
- Increases your Spell Resistance by 363 for each piece of Light Armor equipped.

WHEN 3 OR MORE PIECES OF LIGHT ARMOR ARE EQUIPPED:

PRODIGY:
- Increases your Spell Critical rating by 2191.

CONCENTRATION:
- Increases your Spell Penetration by 4884.



MEDIUM ARMOR:

DEXTERITY:
- Increases your Weapon Critical rating by 328 for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.

WIND WALKER:
- Increases Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
- Also reduces the Stamina cost of abilities by 2% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

IMPROVED SNEAK:
- Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
- Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.


WHEN 3 OR MORE PIECES OF MEDIUM ARMOR ARE EQUIPPED:

AGILITY:
- Increases your Weapon Damage by 15%.

ATHLETICS:
- Increases your Movement Speed while using Sprint by 3% and reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.



HEAVY ARMOR:

RESOLVE:
- Increases your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 362 for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.

CONSTITUTION:
- Increases Health Recovery by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped.
- You restore 108 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. This effect can occur once every 4 Seconds.

JUGGERNAUT:
- Increases Max Health by 2% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped.


WHEN 3 OR MORE PIECES OF HEAVY ARMOR ARE EQUIPPED:

REVITALIZE:
- Increases the Magicka or Stamina your Heavy Attacks restores by 25%.

RAPID MENDING:
- Increases healing received by 8%.