Lowering Armor Piece Requirement for Bonus Passive To Make Hybrids More Viable

StarOfElyon

I think hybrid characters could use some help and the way I think it can be done is by changing some of the armor skill passives. I think by lowering the minimum for some bonuses from 5 pieces to 3 pieces, it would allow characters to wear 3 pieces of two different armor weights and gain the advantages of both, while still not feeling unbalanced.

Instead of using a 5-1-1 set-up or a 5-2 set-up, I can choose to use a 3-3-1 set-up or a 3-2-2 set-up. It opens up more combinations and allows for hybrids to be competitive.

Thoughts?

LIGHT ARMOR

GRACE:
- Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 4% per piece of light armor worn.
- Reduces the cost of Sprint by 3% per piece of light armor worn.

EVOCATION:
- Increases your Magicka Recovery by 4% for each piece of Light Armor equipped.
- Reduces the Magicka Cost of your abilities by 2% for each piece of Light Armor equipped.

SPELL WARDING:
- Increases your Spell Resistance by 363 for each piece of Light Armor equipped.

WHEN 3 OR MORE PIECES OF LIGHT ARMOR ARE EQUIPPED:

PRODIGY:
- Increases your Spell Critical rating by 2191.

CONCENTRATION:
- Increases your Spell Penetration by 4884.



MEDIUM ARMOR:

DEXTERITY:
- Increases your Weapon Critical rating by 328 for each piece of Medium Armor equipped.

WIND WALKER:
- Increases Stamina Recovery by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
- Also reduces the Stamina cost of abilities by 2% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.

IMPROVED SNEAK:
- Reduces the cost of sneaking by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.
- Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.


WHEN 3 OR MORE PIECES OF MEDIUM ARMOR ARE EQUIPPED:

AGILITY:
- Increases your Weapon Damage by 15%.

ATHLETICS:
- Increases your Movement Speed while using Sprint by 3% and reduces the cost of Roll Dodge by 4% per piece of Medium Armor equipped.



HEAVY ARMOR:

RESOLVE:
- Increases your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 362 for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped.

CONSTITUTION:
- Increases Health Recovery by 4% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped.
- You restore 108 Magicka and Stamina when you take damage for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. This effect can occur once every 4 Seconds.

JUGGERNAUT:
- Increases Max Health by 2% per piece of Heavy Armor equipped.


WHEN 3 OR MORE PIECES OF HEAVY ARMOR ARE EQUIPPED:

REVITALIZE:
- Increases the Magicka or Stamina your Heavy Attacks restores by 25%.

RAPID MENDING:
- Increases healing received by 8%.

Casul

Just wait till those stamcros can get both 25% stamina on heavy attacks AND 15% weapon damage.

Bashev

They can lower it to 4 pieces but not less.

WrathOfInnos

I like the goal of being able to combine light and medium armor for an effective hybrid build. The likely problem is that it would be overpowered on medium + heavy or light + heavy builds in PVP. Combining two deferent types of damage would be interesting, but combining either damage type with more survivability would have balance issues.

StarOfElyon

Yeah, heavy kind of throws it off a little. The defensive bonuses would have to be treated differently.

ExistingRug61

Yeah, being able to get two armour lines full bonuses would probably be a bit strong.

My way of making armour skills more hybrid friendly would be to simply “hybridise” the bonuses, as follows:

Light armour:
Evocation: change give magicka and stamina cost reduction but no regen bonus, but increase the cost reduction value (double?).
Prodigy: Give both spell and weapon crit
Concentration: Give both spell and weapon pen

Medium Armour:
Dexterity: Give both weapon and spell crit
Wind Walker: change to give stam and mag regen but no cost reduction, but increase the regen value (double?).
Agility: Give both weapon and spell damage

So with that, both armours still basically function as they already do for pure builds, but also work for hybrids the changes to evocation and wind walker are to keep a bit more difference once things get hybridised. Also, it somewhat removes the medium=stamina and light=magicka rule as both would be viable for each flavour of dps so could open up build options, although the tradition pairings would likely still be more common due to existing sets and also likely more efficient (regen and roll cost reduction synergising better with stam builds that use roll for defence whereas skill cost reduction synergises better with magicka using skills/shields for defence). The challenge with this design would be making sure one type doesn’t simply become BIS for all dps, plus it kinda screws with healer builds as they could actually gain more from medium (due to getting a damage passive instead of pen) but all the existing healer sets are light. Could be offset by adjusting the numbers and/or adding a healing buff passive to light though.

Nebula_DooM

I don't think each of the passives (that require 5 pieces of armor) should ALL be brought down to 3 pieces that needed to be worn. Rather, it should be a mixture so for example the weapon damage should be 4 pieces of armor, the healing recieved should be 4 pieces and the spell penetration should be 4 pieces so no one can get a crazy amount of benefit for wearing the two. So you end up sacrificing something which is what this game is about! The rest of the passives could be 3 pieces

SgtNuttzmeg

You don't need this to make a hybrid build work. The main reason they fail is because you can't balance your resource totals appropriately. There are a ton of sets that already could be seen as catering to hybrids. Most of which are craftable and are easy to get.

Nebula_DooM

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

You don't need this to make a hybrid build work. The main reason they fail is because you can't balance your resource totals appropriately. There are a ton of sets that already could be seen as catering to hybrids. Most of which are craftable and are easy to get.

While it make hybrid builds a little more interesting, i reckon this would be such a cool change for the armor weights and to builds in general. The only issue im seeing is that most sets require you to wear 5 pieces to be worn but that can be easily negated by wearing it through weapons and jewelry

StarOfElyon

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

You don't need this to make a hybrid build work. The main reason they fail is because you can't balance your resource totals appropriately. There are a ton of sets that already could be seen as catering to hybrids. Most of which are craftable and are easy to get.

This is about the passives that hybrids have to chose between when they need both (because true hybrids deal damage with both resources). In medium armor, my hybrid is missing needed spell pen to compete with a mag build.

AinSoph

An interesting idea I think, to add-on to this is that you can choose which two passives can be locked to 3 pieces.

Syrpynt

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

You don't need this to make a hybrid build work. The main reason they fail is because you can't balance your resource totals appropriately. There are a ton of sets that already could be seen as catering to hybrids. Most of which are craftable and are easy to get.

You can balance your resource useage actually for a long fight. Your hybrid probably isn't using the right food/drink, or distibuting the resources well enough. I'm doing it on 3 different characters right now.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I think hybrid characters could use some help and the way I think it can be done is by changing some of the armor skill passives. I think by lowering the minimum for some bonuses from 5 pieces to 3 pieces, it would allow characters to wear 3 pieces of two different armor weights and gain the advantages of both, while still not feeling unbalanced.

Instead of using a 5-1-1 set-up or a 5-2 set-up, I can choose to use a 3-3-1 set-up or a 3-2-2 set-up. It opens up more combinations and allows for hybrids to be competitive.

Thoughts?

The only problem right now keeping hybrids from ruining the game is the lack of total resource pools for healing. This is a GOOD thing imo. I like hybrid magicka/stamina dps builds. The healing is weak. GREAT! But real issue is that healing AND damage are scaled off of the total resource pool. If healing was strictly resource pool and damage was purely weapon/spell then everything would make much more sense again.

Everest_Lionheart

Pulling off a hybrid requires some give and take. The whole point of hybrid is to stay in the fight by using both pools to damage and mitigate effectively. You are able to fire off skill after skill but at the expense of dealing too end damage. It’s the trade you have to be willing to accept.

You can go way out of the box here and run something like vicious ophidian on the body and overwhelming surge weapons and jewelry and have a sustain set for each type. Throw on a Balrogh or Domihaus monster set and you’ve got something interesting.

If you lean to the magicka side run false gods with ancient dragonguard. Or run a cheap set like innate axiom plus a trial set of your choice. Hybrids can work well enough in this game but come the hardest trials and dungeons it’s best to specialize your role and tune your character to one or the other.

ealdwin

Syrpynt wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

You don't need this to make a hybrid build work. The main reason they fail is because you can't balance your resource totals appropriately. There are a ton of sets that already could be seen as catering to hybrids. Most of which are craftable and are easy to get.

You can balance your resource useage actually for a long fight. Your hybrid probably isn't using the right food/drink, or distibuting the resources well enough. I'm doing it on 3 different characters right now.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I think hybrid characters could use some help and the way I think it can be done is by changing some of the armor skill passives. I think by lowering the minimum for some bonuses from 5 pieces to 3 pieces, it would allow characters to wear 3 pieces of two different armor weights and gain the advantages of both, while still not feeling unbalanced.

Instead of using a 5-1-1 set-up or a 5-2 set-up, I can choose to use a 3-3-1 set-up or a 3-2-2 set-up. It opens up more combinations and allows for hybrids to be competitive.

Thoughts?

The only problem right now keeping hybrids from ruining the game is the lack of total resource pools for healing. This is a GOOD thing imo. I like hybrid magicka/stamina dps builds. The healing is weak. GREAT! But real issue is that healing AND damage are scaled off of the total resource pool. If healing was strictly resource pool and damage was purely weapon/spell then everything would make much more sense again.

One idea that I feel like I've heard before, that I've begun liking, is to replace the scaling of damage based on respective offensive attribute with the the combination of both attributes.

So, instead of Magic Damage scaling off of purely Magicka, it would instead scale off of the combination of Magicka and Stamina, and vice versa with Physical Damage. So, 64 Magicka would add the same amount of damage as 64 Stamina and the same amount of damage as 32 Mag and 32 Stam.

Ideally, this would make investing points into each offensive resource pool more about how often you can cast abilities that cost magicka or stamina, while investing into either resource pool is about investing into an offensive setup. (This would prevent people from just stacking all 64 into Health and then stacking Weapon Damage for high damage tanks)

Araneae6537

I’m fine with the armor bonuses remaining as they are. I think abilities’ strength scaling with the highest offensive stat is the greatest obstacle for hybrid builds.

ealdwin wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

You don't need this to make a hybrid build work. The main reason they fail is because you can't balance your resource totals appropriately. There are a ton of sets that already could be seen as catering to hybrids. Most of which are craftable and are easy to get.

You can balance your resource useage actually for a long fight. Your hybrid probably isn't using the right food/drink, or distibuting the resources well enough. I'm doing it on 3 different characters right now.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I think hybrid characters could use some help and the way I think it can be done is by changing some of the armor skill passives. I think by lowering the minimum for some bonuses from 5 pieces to 3 pieces, it would allow characters to wear 3 pieces of two different armor weights and gain the advantages of both, while still not feeling unbalanced.

Instead of using a 5-1-1 set-up or a 5-2 set-up, I can choose to use a 3-3-1 set-up or a 3-2-2 set-up. It opens up more combinations and allows for hybrids to be competitive.

Thoughts?

The only problem right now keeping hybrids from ruining the game is the lack of total resource pools for healing. This is a GOOD thing imo. I like hybrid magicka/stamina dps builds. The healing is weak. GREAT! But real issue is that healing AND damage are scaled off of the total resource pool. If healing was strictly resource pool and damage was purely weapon/spell then everything would make much more sense again.

One idea that I feel like I've heard before, that I've begun liking, is to replace the scaling of damage based on respective offensive attribute with the the combination of both attributes.

So, instead of Magic Damage scaling off of purely Magicka, it would instead scale off of the combination of Magicka and Stamina, and vice versa with Physical Damage. So, 64 Magicka would add the same amount of damage as 64 Stamina and the same amount of damage as 32 Mag and 32 Stam.

Ideally, this would make investing points into each offensive resource pool more about how often you can cast abilities that cost magicka or stamina, while investing into either resource pool is about investing into an offensive setup. (This would prevent people from just stacking all 64 into Health and then stacking Weapon Damage for high damage tanks)

That seems like a potentially good solution to me... Maybe it should vary by ability too? Like a purely weapon ability would depend on stamina while purely spells would depend on magicka while those class abilities that seem a mix (conjure a weapon and attack with it) could maybe be based off of total? I feel that there should still be some trade-offs besides resources only — that a 100% magicka spellcaster would still cast stronger spells than a hybrid but not as great of a difference or there are other abilities in which the hybrid would be equal (I don’t think they should be stronger than pure magicka or stamina in anything as they will already have a broader range of abilities to choose from). But I would like to see hybrids as well as pure magicka/stamina all be able to compete in all content (of course there will always be some set-ups that are BiS, but my understanding now is that all hybrid builds would be greatly inferior in endgame PvE for instance).

LtAscott

Did the last patch not make everything just scale off your highest stat?
I've always played a hybrid build, its finally actually performing as expected.
(DW/Stam main bar: 2x AoE +2x single target dps + 1 self buff)
(Magicka back bar - 3 x AoE + 1 self heal + 1 shield)
My build relies heavily on raw damage (from light attacks)

idk

Araneae6537 wrote: »

I’m fine with the armor bonuses remaining as they are. I think abilities’ strength scaling with the highest offensive stat is the greatest obstacle for hybrid builds.

ealdwin wrote: »

Syrpynt wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

You don't need this to make a hybrid build work. The main reason they fail is because you can't balance your resource totals appropriately. There are a ton of sets that already could be seen as catering to hybrids. Most of which are craftable and are easy to get.

You can balance your resource useage actually for a long fight. Your hybrid probably isn't using the right food/drink, or distibuting the resources well enough. I'm doing it on 3 different characters right now.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I think hybrid characters could use some help and the way I think it can be done is by changing some of the armor skill passives. I think by lowering the minimum for some bonuses from 5 pieces to 3 pieces, it would allow characters to wear 3 pieces of two different armor weights and gain the advantages of both, while still not feeling unbalanced.

Instead of using a 5-1-1 set-up or a 5-2 set-up, I can choose to use a 3-3-1 set-up or a 3-2-2 set-up. It opens up more combinations and allows for hybrids to be competitive.

Thoughts?

The only problem right now keeping hybrids from ruining the game is the lack of total resource pools for healing. This is a GOOD thing imo. I like hybrid magicka/stamina dps builds. The healing is weak. GREAT! But real issue is that healing AND damage are scaled off of the total resource pool. If healing was strictly resource pool and damage was purely weapon/spell then everything would make much more sense again.

One idea that I feel like I've heard before, that I've begun liking, is to replace the scaling of damage based on respective offensive attribute with the the combination of both attributes.

So, instead of Magic Damage scaling off of purely Magicka, it would instead scale off of the combination of Magicka and Stamina, and vice versa with Physical Damage. So, 64 Magicka would add the same amount of damage as 64 Stamina and the same amount of damage as 32 Mag and 32 Stam.

Ideally, this would make investing points into each offensive resource pool more about how often you can cast abilities that cost magicka or stamina, while investing into either resource pool is about investing into an offensive setup. (This would prevent people from just stacking all 64 into Health and then stacking Weapon Damage for high damage tanks)

That seems like a potentially good solution to me... Maybe it should vary by ability too? Like a purely weapon ability would depend on stamina while purely spells would depend on magicka while those class abilities that seem a mix (conjure a weapon and attack with it) could maybe be based off of total? I feel that there should still be some trade-offs besides resources only — that a 100% magicka spellcaster would still cast stronger spells than a hybrid but not as great of a difference or there are other abilities in which the hybrid would be equal (I don’t think they should be stronger than pure magicka or stamina in anything as they will already have a broader range of abilities to choose from). But I would like to see hybrids as well as pure magicka/stamina all be able to compete in all content (of course there will always be some set-ups that are BiS, but my understanding now is that all hybrid builds would be greatly inferior in endgame PvE for instance).

I think it is more than merely having skill scale off max stats instead of the resource they cost as crit chance and CP due to the type of damage being done play major roles. As such a hybrid will still be inferior pure builds. We see this with the recent change to basic attacks on weapons scaling off the predominant stat in the build.

Ofc, Zos could easily alleviate all this but I seriously doubt they will and it would be bad for the game. If they took the huge leap and homogenized crit chance, scaled all damage to the max stat or even added them all up as though they were one, and even had the damage type change accordingly it would homogenize the game, giving it less flavor, and lead to one build per class to rule them all.

StarOfElyon

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Pulling off a hybrid requires some give and take. The whole point of hybrid is to stay in the fight by using both pools to damage and mitigate effectively. You are able to fire off skill after skill but at the expense of dealing too end damage. It’s the trade you have to be willing to accept.

You can go way out of the box here and run something like vicious ophidian on the body and overwhelming surge weapons and jewelry and have a sustain set for each type. Throw on a Balrogh or Domihaus monster set and you’ve got something interesting.

If you lean to the magicka side run false gods with ancient dragonguard. Or run a cheap set like innate axiom plus a trial set of your choice. Hybrids can work well enough in this game but come the hardest trials and dungeons it’s best to specialize your role and tune your character to one or the other.

I don't like proc sets otherwise I would probably have a better time. In order to do any damage I have to wear two damage sets (in medium armor). So it's new moon and innate axiom for me. I sacrifice sustain,

Syrpynt wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

You don't need this to make a hybrid build work. The main reason they fail is because you can't balance your resource totals appropriately. There are a ton of sets that already could be seen as catering to hybrids. Most of which are craftable and are easy to get.

You can balance your resource useage actually for a long fight. Your hybrid probably isn't using the right food/drink, or distibuting the resources well enough. I'm doing it on 3 different characters right now.

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I think hybrid characters could use some help and the way I think it can be done is by changing some of the armor skill passives. I think by lowering the minimum for some bonuses from 5 pieces to 3 pieces, it would allow characters to wear 3 pieces of two different armor weights and gain the advantages of both, while still not feeling unbalanced.

Instead of using a 5-1-1 set-up or a 5-2 set-up, I can choose to use a 3-3-1 set-up or a 3-2-2 set-up. It opens up more combinations and allows for hybrids to be competitive.

Thoughts?

The only problem right now keeping hybrids from ruining the game is the lack of total resource pools for healing. This is a GOOD thing imo. I like hybrid magicka/stamina dps builds. The healing is weak. GREAT! But real issue is that healing AND damage are scaled off of the total resource pool. If healing was strictly resource pool and damage was purely weapon/spell then everything would make much more sense again.

It's not really good that resource pool is lower considering that damage is also lower. All builds should have to sacrifice but hybrids are all sacrifice and no gain. My hybrid has higher weapon damage than my magplar but light attacks hit way lighter.

They do not compete in BG. And I've had numerous teammates tell me I suck and should uninstall lol