MentalxHammer wrote: »It's actually painfully easy to build max res 40k hp WW's that are gushing damage
Thevampirenight wrote: »Making it only last 20 seconds no way to extend it? What's the point in having werewolves then?
What they can do is make them vulnerable to prismatic enchantments and maybe give an added weakness, say fire for example as a weakness. They should keep them the way they are but they should make it so they do have more weaknesses. Maybe make them take 450% more damage from the Dawnguard Crossbow ability. looking at the 2791 damage number taken from uesp, you take that and you times that number by 450% you get 12559.5 per hit. That would balance it out, 50k health just need to hit them a few times with fire magic and most importantly silver and then its no longer as much of an issue. So having Silver Bolts do that amount of damage plus an enchant that does what the prismatic enchant does ontop of it should make them a lot more vulnerable to being killed and it would not be as much of an issue.
Since its using Silver Bolts and Silver is the iconic werewolf weakness and this ability does use that type of bolt going by its description. Thus Silver should be the most effective weakness against them. Hence the much higher damage number. A fire weakness would also hinder them but still make the skilline viable it makes sense you would need some type of silver or fire to kill a werewolf.
So gist of what they could do.
1. Buff on the Silverbolts Crossbow ability that does way more damage to werewolves.
2. Add in a unique silver enchant that does what Primsatic does or add werewolves to Prismatic.
3.Make fire an added werewolf weakness just as it is for vampires.
Now what this would do is make it so they have vulnerabilities they cannot just ignore.
The issue isn't the timer, the timer is fine what is the issue is not enough vulnerabilities.
What they can also do is add in that ability cost weakness remove that from the vampire does not make sense there and add in a based ability cost increase say like 5/10% for abilties werewolves in humanoid form and make these weaknesses apply to them as well. Why because werewolves can be restless or don't sleep as good. Going by that is how they did it in Skyrim. They could not receive resting bonuses. Being restless and not sleeping as great would obviously make you not as alert. Not as alert means your not as effective. Still can sleep and get sleep just you don't have as much energy. Unless your in your beast form. So an ability cost increase weakness would make sense for a lycanthrope to have.
MentalxHammer wrote: »
Recapitated wrote: »@Thevampirenight I don't want the counter to WWs to be "slot some niche ability". Fire being the counter to vamps (forget the Greymoor changes) is functional because half the specs in the game carry an inferno staff and two of them have fire as a class theme. There is no poison weapon type and only one spec that really leans into it, and even then it amounts to less than a majority of stamdk's damage. DBOS is the only werewolf counter that doesn't punish you for slotting it against non-WWs (if you play stam).
As a general rule, the counter to {highly versatile spec} (werewolf) can't be {very niche spec} (werewolf hunter).
On paper there's balance, but because {very niche spec} fails 1v1 most of the time and gets mowed down XvX before it's able to do its job, people won't run it. {highly versatile spec} will be countered in theory but not in practice.
I agree that WW uptime doesn't need to be reduced, it's not meant to enable turnaround like Goliath and Vamp ults. If WW form is balanced there is no need to change the uptime, and if uptime is addressed 20 seconds of god mode is still on the long side. I think temporary transformation ults are going to be tough to get right honestly, Goliath largely crutches on gimmicky sets.
Forgive my PvP inexperience, but not that long ago wasn't Werewolf generally uncommon in PvP? At least Cyro.
When a werewolf popped up people focused it down as a priority target then went about their business.
So isn't the problem that they're now building too tough and are able to get away with it (just like other 40k tank builds) because of proc sets?
MentalxHammer wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Are WWs the problem, or are they just uniquely good at wearing broken sets?
Stamsorc is in the same situation, one of the best specs for (ab)using broken sets. Nerfing stamsorc would make no sense though because their toolkit is already rather lacking.
WW's are a problem, 30% movement speed, 8% max HP, 10k resistances, 18% weapon damage that can be kept up with 100% uptime, that is objectively broken. Here are some other facts, since my OP was written hastily.
The WW burst heal Hircines Rage provides major berserk when casted at full health. I urge anyone reading this to examine the other sources of major berserk https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Buffs. They are few and far between, WW has access to this on a skill that can be spammed, major berserk increases the damage of proc sets as well, compounding the issue.
Let's examine their damage spammable, Howl of Agony. Comparing the tooltips of Howl of Agony to standardized spammables, it can be observed that the base damage of HoA is 29% higher than the standard spammable; additionally, this skill deals 25% more damage to targets that are facing you or feared. Assuming this % bonus is additive with other % bonus', DR's will be experienced and the buff will likely be closer to ~20%; in this case this spammable will be doing 55% more damage than common spammables. This is objectively broken.
There is a laundry list of other objectively broken issues with the WW ultimate.
Recapitated wrote: »Thevampirenight I don't want the counter to WWs to be "slot some niche ability". Fire being the counter to vamps (forget the Greymoor changes) is functional because half the specs in the game carry an inferno staff and two of them have fire as a class theme. There is no poison weapon type and only one spec that really leans into it, and even then it amounts to less than a majority of stamdk's damage. DBOS is the only werewolf counter that doesn't punish you for slotting it against non-WWs (if you play stam).
Recapitated wrote: »Thevampirenight I don't want the counter to WWs to be "slot some niche ability". Fire being the counter to vamps (forget the Greymoor changes) is functional because half the specs in the game carry an inferno staff and two of them have fire as a class theme. There is no poison weapon type and only one spec that really leans into it, and even then it amounts to less than a majority of stamdk's damage. DBOS is the only werewolf counter that doesn't punish you for slotting it against non-WWs (if you play stam).
There is a poison damage ability that everyone seems to hate that is a morph of Snipe called Lethal Arrow. In fact bow has quite a lot of poison damage on it and every stam build can pick one up and use it.
But I will agree with you on one thing, bow is the only weapon skill line with poison damage worked into its abilities. For dual wield and 2-handed weapons to get access to the poison damage type you must either slot a poison damage glyph or equip a poison onto the weapon, which as we all know overwrites the enchantment... Obviously this isn't the most viable thing for someone going 1-hand and shield/2-handed for instance or any other combo of weapons that isn't using bow.
BXR_Lonestar wrote: »MentalxHammer wrote: »Recapitated wrote: »Are WWs the problem, or are they just uniquely good at wearing broken sets?
Stamsorc is in the same situation, one of the best specs for (ab)using broken sets. Nerfing stamsorc would make no sense though because their toolkit is already rather lacking.
WW's are a problem, 30% movement speed, 8% max HP, 10k resistances, 18% weapon damage that can be kept up with 100% uptime, that is objectively broken. Here are some other facts, since my OP was written hastily.
The WW burst heal Hircines Rage provides major berserk when casted at full health. I urge anyone reading this to examine the other sources of major berserk https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Buffs. They are few and far between, WW has access to this on a skill that can be spammed, major berserk increases the damage of proc sets as well, compounding the issue.
Let's examine their damage spammable, Howl of Agony. Comparing the tooltips of Howl of Agony to standardized spammables, it can be observed that the base damage of HoA is 29% higher than the standard spammable; additionally, this skill deals 25% more damage to targets that are facing you or feared. Assuming this % bonus is additive with other % bonus', DR's will be experienced and the buff will likely be closer to ~20%; in this case this spammable will be doing 55% more damage than common spammables. This is objectively broken.
There is a laundry list of other objectively broken issues with the WW ultimate.
I've not experienced what you were talking about so perhaps this is just coming from ignorance, but tbh, it seems like the way to counter werewolves, especially if your defending the keep, is to simply stay inside the keep structures and attack them with siege until they're back in human form. Werewolves give up a long of strength to get the strength they have when they are in Werewolf form (I know this because I'm leveling one up - but not for PVP). So the idea is you are weaker in human form, but stronger in wolf form. But the Wolf form has limitations and one of those is lack of a strong ranged attack.
So perhaps the people getting farmed outside of the keep were simply just not smart enough to hide behind their walls long enough to allow the wolf forms to end, and then engage after. Seems like a pretty reasonable way to handle them to me?
MentalxHammer wrote: »This is getting ridiculous, the IC is just groups of 40k hp werewolves. Werewolf is a blatant carry, nothing in this game comes close to how overpowered this is. Other ultimate transformations have ~20 seconds uptime, WW can be kept up indefinitely, this leads to individuals ONLY playing in werewolf form, [snip]
I think the recent steps towards balance have been in the right direction, but this needs to be addressed desperately. It is ruining the PvP experience for
[Edited to remove Baiting]
DocFrost72 wrote: »40k hp werewolves aren't dealing damage, their proc sets are. Nerf crimson and alessian, and werewolves won't be near the issue they are.
The WW burst heal Hircines Rage provides major berserk when casted at full health. I urge anyone reading this to examine the other sources of major berserk https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Buffs. They are few and far between, WW has access to this on a skill that can be spammed, major berserk increases the damage of proc sets as well, compounding the issue.
Literally no one uses this *** morph in PvP.
And the only thing that needs to be addressed with werewolf is the HP based heal. Rework it to scale of weapon damage and max stamina fixes the majority of unbalances with werewolf. The rest of the toolkit is fine.
Werewolf time extending perks need to be removed so people that reply purely on this crutch to tank and spank like vamp lord can get kited for 20 seconds then go back to doing no damage.
Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Group enviroment alters a lot. Stuff works differently in a group vs solo play. WW is just one of many things that is affected by that.
DocFrost72 wrote: »40k hp werewolves aren't dealing damage, their proc sets are. Nerf crimson and alessian, and werewolves won't be near the issue they are.
DocFrost72 wrote: »40k hp werewolves aren't dealing damage, their proc sets are. Nerf crimson and alessian, and werewolves won't be near the issue they are.
yes they are
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ttJ0uM2m8w&t=393s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kK5CSkGkNg&t=182s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW1grcllBcU&t=132s
No Crimson, no alessian, no proc dmg sets. 38k health werewolf. Nothing wrong with werewolves doing damage, it's the health scaled heal that's the issue. Provide less incentive for stacking health and in turn make werewolves killable and you will see less zergs of them.