Werewolf needs to be addressed.

MentalxHammer

This is getting ridiculous, the IC is just groups of 40k hp werewolves. Werewolf is a blatant carry, nothing in this game comes close to how overpowered this is. Other ultimate transformations have ~20 seconds uptime, WW can be kept up indefinitely, this leads to individuals ONLY playing in werewolf form, [snip]

I think the recent steps towards balance have been in the right direction, but this needs to be addressed desperately. It is ruining the PvP experience for

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Sephyr

MentalxHammer wrote: »

[Quoted post was removed]

You have to refresh the page in order for the gear in the top right to show up for editing posts.

GeneraLandon

It is pretty ridiculous. Just wait. Next month you'll get to enjoy groups of them in bgs too.. They at least need to come up with a set the is especially deadly for WW's

MentalxHammer

GeneraLandon wrote: »

It is pretty ridiculous. Just wait. Next month you'll get to enjoy groups of them in bgs too.. They at least need to come up with a set the is especially deadly for WW's

There was a zerg of entirely werewolves farming the front of a keep for over an hour tonight in Ravenwatch, many of them not dropping werewolf the whole time. There was literally nothing anyone could do to make a dent in their 40k hp pools, and all they had to do was spam light attacks to effortlessly get kills, it literally left me sick to my stomach as a pvp player.

Wandering_Immigrant

"But who polices the proc sets, daddy?"

"Werewolves, son, werewolves."

Swomp23

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

"But who polices the proc sets, daddy?"

"Werewolves, son, werewolves."

Except werewolves also use proc sets. It allows them to build even more tanky and still be able to deal good damage.
Sets that allow you to build tanky without losing damage is never the option.

Morwaenna

Pvp has been broke for a long time.

DocFrost72

40k hp werewolves aren't dealing damage, their proc sets are. Nerf crimson and alessian, and werewolves won't be near the issue they are.

cheesefome

Whats funny is poison is suppose to be their weakness and my bud had a dk full poison build(venomous, sheer venom, ) combo and did absolutely nothing to this WW.

They need to be addressed. Also, I dont understand how the balance team all agreed that this was good enough to be released. Sometimes It makes me wonder what is going on back there.

Recapitated

Are WWs the problem, or are they just uniquely good at wearing broken sets?

Stamsorc is in the same situation, one of the best specs for (ab)using broken sets. Nerfing stamsorc would make no sense though because their toolkit is already rather lacking.

MentalxHammer

Recapitated wrote: »

Are WWs the problem, or are they just uniquely good at wearing broken sets?

Stamsorc is in the same situation, one of the best specs for (ab)using broken sets. Nerfing stamsorc would make no sense though because their toolkit is already rather lacking.

WW's are a problem, 30% movement speed, 8% max HP, 10k resistances, 18% weapon damage that can be kept up with 100% uptime, that is objectively broken. Here are some other facts, since my OP was written hastily.

The WW burst heal Hircines Rage provides major berserk when casted at full health. I urge anyone reading this to examine the other sources of major berserk https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Buffs. They are few and far between, WW has access to this on a skill that can be spammed, major berserk increases the damage of proc sets as well, compounding the issue.

Let's examine their damage spammable, Howl of Agony. Comparing the tooltips of Howl of Agony to standardized spammables, it can be observed that the base damage of HoA is 29% higher than the standard spammable; additionally, this skill deals 25% more damage to targets that are facing you or feared. Assuming this % bonus is additive with other % bonus', DR's will be experienced and the buff will likely be closer to ~20%; in this case this spammable will be doing 55% more damage than common spammables. This is objectively broken.

There is a laundry list of other objectively broken issues with the WW ultimate.

Qbiken

The WW burst heal Hircines Rage provides major berserk when casted at full health. I urge anyone reading this to examine the other sources of major berserk https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Buffs. They are few and far between, WW has access to this on a skill that can be spammed, major berserk increases the damage of proc sets as well, compounding the issue.

Literally no one uses this *** morph in PvP.

And the only thing that needs to be addressed with werewolf is the HP based heal. Rework it to scale of weapon damage and max stamina fixes the majority of unbalances with werewolf. The rest of the toolkit is fine.

Vevvev

cheesefome wrote: »

Whats funny is poison is suppose to be their weakness and my bud had a dk full poison build(venomous, sheer venom, ) combo and did absolutely nothing to this WW.

They need to be addressed. Also, I dont understand how the balance team all agreed that this was good enough to be released. Sometimes It makes me wonder what is going on back there.

Was he also using Noxious Breath, Venomous Claw, Lethal Arrow, and Dawnbreaker/Toxic Barrage? The poison weakness is 25% which is an exponential increase in damage. The higher the damage the larger the exponential damage increase will be, which means Lethal Arrow is going to be hitting the werewolf incredibly hard for every single shot.

Also Dawnbreaker with the Skilled Tracker Passive is going to hit for 20% more damage against werewolves. Dawnbreaker of Smiting can be used by magicka builds to, although their crit and penetration bonuses won't apply but that 20% damage increase will. Smiting also comes with a stun and can hit a whole group of werewolves incredibly hard.

Recapitated

Vevvev wrote: »

Dawnbreaker of Smiting can be used by magicka builds to, although their crit and penetration bonuses won't apply but that 20% damage increase will. Smiting also comes with a stun and can hit a whole group of werewolves incredibly hard.

I don't understand arguments like this. Yes, mag specs can theoretically slot DBOS if have the skill points handy and they've leveled it on for some reason and they stay out of combat to buy it but is that remotely practical especially given how much damage you're losing from pen and crit CP? If the counter is gimping yourself against everyone else then you're practically making OP's argument for them.

@FrankonPC you've made videos about this, do you think the problems are internal to the spec or do you think they just make issues with certain sets and health-based heals especially apparent?

FrankonPC

Recapitated wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Dawnbreaker of Smiting can be used by magicka builds to, although their crit and penetration bonuses won't apply but that 20% damage increase will. Smiting also comes with a stun and can hit a whole group of werewolves incredibly hard.

I don't understand arguments like this. Yes, mag specs can theoretically slot DBOS if have the skill points handy and they've leveled it on for some reason and they stay out of combat to buy it but is that remotely practical especially given how much damage you're losing from pen and crit CP? If the counter is gimping yourself against everyone else then you're practically making OP's argument for them.

@FrankonPC you've made videos about this, do you think the problems are internal to the spec or do you think they just make issues with certain sets and health-based heals especially apparent?

From my experience with werewolf, fighter's guild and poisons really don't do much. Pack leader + the resistances you get are more than enough. I did lose a 1 v 4 vs 4 dks all running sheer and venomous smite, but it was close. Considering that "should" be the werewolf weakness, that fight should never be close.

The biggest issue with werewolf imo is health based heals. My heals hit for anywhere from 12-17.5k per howl. I run just under 40k health so when I do heal, I heal for a lot. I really cannot be bursted by one player due to my resistances, % mitigation and max health. There are a lot of health based heals that function this way, but werewolf's heal is the strongest imo.

In my opinion, health based heals are too strong and they need to be scaled back quite a bit. It's this reason that makes them and other classes like warden best for stacking proc sets. They're better suited for abusing these sets because their healing doesn't scale off of dmg done. You combine other sets like crimson(that needs to be adjusted imo) and other proc sets and you can make an extremely oppressive build in group play that is one of the sturdiest specs in the game, provides amazing utility and is just overall easier to play than anything else. The proc set "weakness" that everyone says exists is lower healing and squishiness. Not on a werewolf. You get all of the benefits of running procs with none of the weaknesses.

Now, zenimax did try to counter this by making the heal super expensive. The thing is, when you're in a group, you really don't have to worry about solo heals nearly as much, meaning you could switch to the other morph giving you berserk. This is where werewolf is at it's strongest imo. So much health stacked for high healing when needed, so much dmg mitigation naturally through passives...and then stacked in a coordinated group situation they can provide major and minor defile to groups, aoe off balance, major fracture(soon to be breach) etc. They are, imo, one of the best front line group specs for this reason. So much utility by applying buffs and debuffs to a group with no real loss in that format.


The cost of the heal is not easy to build around solo. If other mag based heals cost as much as what werewolf gives these forums would be in an uproar. I can see why zenimax thought that this high cost would offset werewolf strengths, because solo you really do have to build in a ton of mag recovery to sustain. That weakness does not exist in group play though, which means werewolves really don't have any weaknesses for 95% of the gaming population.

So, imo, adjust the health based heal so it doesn't scale as much, adjust the proc sets so they're not so ridiculously easy to use to give free damage. These would be good steps in the right direction. The major and minor defile that werewolves have are already getting nerfed next patch...this very well could be all of the adjustments that they need. maybe reduced the %mitigation on pack leader to 5% instead of 10. These are all solid options to bring them in line with everything else.

Recapitated

FrankonPC wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Dawnbreaker of Smiting can be used by magicka builds to, although their crit and penetration bonuses won't apply but that 20% damage increase will. Smiting also comes with a stun and can hit a whole group of werewolves incredibly hard.

I don't understand arguments like this. Yes, mag specs can theoretically slot DBOS if have the skill points handy and they've leveled it on for some reason and they stay out of combat to buy it but is that remotely practical especially given how much damage you're losing from pen and crit CP? If the counter is gimping yourself against everyone else then you're practically making OP's argument for them.

@FrankonPC you've made videos about this, do you think the problems are internal to the spec or do you think they just make issues with certain sets and health-based heals especially apparent?

From my experience with werewolf, fighter's guild and poisons really don't do much. Pack leader + the resistances you get are more than enough. I did lose a 1 v 4 vs 4 dks all running sheer and venomous smite, but it was close. Considering that "should" be the werewolf weakness, that fight should never be close.

The biggest issue with werewolf imo is health based heals. My heals hit for anywhere from 12-17.5k per howl. I run just under 40k health so when I do heal, I heal for a lot. I really cannot be bursted by one player due to my resistances, % mitigation and max health. There are a lot of health based heals that function this way, but werewolf's heal is the strongest imo.

In my opinion, health based heals are too strong and they need to be scaled back quite a bit. It's this reason that makes them and other classes like warden best for stacking proc sets. They're better suited for abusing these sets because their healing doesn't scale off of dmg done. You combine other sets like crimson(that needs to be adjusted imo) and other proc sets and you can make an extremely oppressive build in group play that is one of the sturdiest specs in the game, provides amazing utility and is just overall easier to play than anything else. The proc set "weakness" that everyone says exists is lower healing and squishiness. Not on a werewolf. You get all of the benefits of running procs with none of the weaknesses.

Now, zenimax did try to counter this by making the heal super expensive. The thing is, when you're in a group, you really don't have to worry about solo heals nearly as much, meaning you could switch to the other morph giving you berserk. This is where werewolf is at it's strongest imo. So much health stacked for high healing when needed, so much dmg mitigation naturally through passives...and then stacked in a coordinated group situation they can provide major and minor defile to groups, aoe off balance, major fracture(soon to be breach) etc. They are, imo, one of the best front line group specs for this reason. So much utility by applying buffs and debuffs to a group with no real loss in that format.


The cost of the heal is not easy to build around solo. If other mag based heals cost as much as what werewolf gives these forums would be in an uproar. I can see why zenimax thought that this high cost would offset werewolf strengths, because solo you really do have to build in a ton of mag recovery to sustain. That weakness does not exist in group play though, which means werewolves really don't have any weaknesses for 95% of the gaming population.

So, imo, adjust the health based heal so it doesn't scale as much, adjust the proc sets so they're not so ridiculously easy to use to give free damage. These would be good steps in the right direction. The major and minor defile that werewolves have are already getting nerfed next patch...this very well could be all of the adjustments that they need. maybe reduced the %mitigation on pack leader to 5% instead of 10. These are all solid options to bring them in line with everything else.

Would you be able to invest enough in health for the heal to be an issue if you only had Greymoor sets, so before the proc set buffs? I realize werewolf tanks are not a meta issue in PvE but I'm weary of reducing tank self-heals after the increases to damage taken next patch.

FrankonPC

Recapitated wrote: »

Would you be able to invest enough in health for the heal to be an issue if you only had Greymoor sets, so before the proc set buffs? I realize werewolf tanks are not a meta issue in PvE but I'm weary of reducing tank self-heals after the increases to damage taken next patch.

The sets that I run on my build are not proc damage sets. They're more sustain based + malacath and I can support it fine currently. It's going to be even easier next patch with the major endurance buffs they're providing.

I would look at just potentially capping the health based heal scaling at maybe 30 health in pvp through battle spirit. That way pve tanks still get their heal, and pvp'ers do too...it's just not at ridiculously high levels. That way the problematic pvp issues are only in pvp...and pve gets their toys.

I really do think if they bring the health based heal more in line with other heals, as well as the major and minor nerfs they are providing...werewolves will be a lot less problematic.

I'm not stating that even the adjustments I am proposing are far enough...but I would do incremental changes so that they aren't gutted completely and then go from there.

Goregrinder

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

"But who polices the proc sets, daddy?"

"Werewolves, son, werewolves."

Pretty much. I went up against a Necro running a harbinger build in a BG. He went into goliath form, my teammates ran, but I kept fighting him plus two of his teammates. I just ignored him while I took his homies out one at a time. Then when he drops goliath form, his resources couldn't keep up with my pressure and I killed him. This was without running crimson too. It's nice to be able to run around in BG's policing proc builds!

Fawn4287

Werewolf time extending perks need to be removed so people that reply purely on this crutch to tank and spank like vamp lord can get kited for 20 seconds then go back to doing no damage.

Wolfchild07

Whatever happens, pvp and pve need to be separated. Once they get nerfed, they're too weak for pve. Add a battle spirit debuff and leave pve alone. Tired of ww nerfbuffnerfbuffnerf.

Qbiken

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Werewolf time extending perks need to be removed so people that reply purely on this crutch to tank and spank like vamp lord can get kited for 20 seconds then go back to doing no damage.

No, werewolf doesn't need to have the same design as other transformations. You'd have to buff werewolf to absurd levels if you limit it to 20 seconds duration. + having everything streamlined to work the same kills any kind of uniqueness and "flavour".

Rework the heal to scale of max stam and weapon damage and werewolf will be fine.

Chrlynsch

I've been saying this since werewolves were given health based heals. Werewolf is not a tank, have the heal scale off of Max stam/ max weapon damage, that way if they want to run proc sets, they can't have as much survival potential.

Proc sets carry werewolf better than anything else in the game, we all remember the bugged torug's pact time Werepocolypse, this is no different.

Werewolf's greatest offensive strength doesn't come from the damage it can put out, but from the heals it limits others from having through its defile. Werewolf doesn't have a way to support their allies through cross healing, so this is their niche for pvp. Defile is getting gutted next patch so werewolf is already getting a strong indirect nerf.

Take away Werewolf's reason to stack health, give them a heal that scales off of stam, and weapon damage.

Recapitated

FrankonPC wrote: »

I'm not stating that even the adjustments I am proposing are far enough...but I would do incremental changes so that they aren't gutted completely and then go from there.

Fair, thanks for your thoughts

Fawn4287

Qbiken wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Werewolf time extending perks need to be removed so people that reply purely on this crutch to tank and spank like vamp lord can get kited for 20 seconds then go back to doing no damage.

No, werewolf doesn't need to have the same design as other transformations. You'd have to buff werewolf to absurd levels if you limit it to 20 seconds duration. + having everything streamlined to work the same kills any kind of uniqueness and "flavour".

Rework the heal to scale of max stam and weapon damage and werewolf will be fine.

No, the perks it already has make it an incredibly strong transformation that can compete with vampire lord and goliath, 10% damage mitigation, 30% stam, 18% weapon damage and increased heavy attack damage make it strong, theres a reason every second person you see in IC runs it, because its a crutch that leaves you unable to be killed 1v1 against nearly all players and works even better in a large grouo

Chrlynsch

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Fawn4287 wrote: »

Werewolf time extending perks need to be removed so people that reply purely on this crutch to tank and spank like vamp lord can get kited for 20 seconds then go back to doing no damage.

No, werewolf doesn't need to have the same design as other transformations. You'd have to buff werewolf to absurd levels if you limit it to 20 seconds duration. + having everything streamlined to work the same kills any kind of uniqueness and "flavour".

Rework the heal to scale of max stam and weapon damage and werewolf will be fine.

No, the perks it already has make it an incredibly strong transformation that can compete with vampire lord and goliath, 10% damage mitigation, 30% stam, 18% weapon damage and increased heavy attack damage make it strong, theres a reason every second person you see in IC runs it, because its a crutch that leaves you unable to be killed 1v1 against nearly all players and works even better in a large grouo

Werewolves are running around exploiting proc sets and stacking health for survival... this is the issue. They can have damage and survivability by relying on broken sets and their defiles, 30% extra stamina and 18% extra weapon damage dont add up to anything when they have 20k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.

Not everyone runs werewolf in IC, I guarantee it.

Run the pve damage parse of a vamp lord up 100% vs a werewolf up 100%. Vamp will out damage the werewolf by a landslide.

UppGRAYxDD

Wandering_Immigrant wrote: »

"But who polices the proc sets, daddy?"

"Werewolves, son, werewolves."

Swomp23

DocFrost72 wrote: »

40k hp werewolves aren't dealing damage, their proc sets are. Nerf crimson and alessian, and werewolves won't be near the issue they are.

And unleashed, syvarra, venom smite... There is more than 1 problematic proc set.

And even then, Isth3reno1else made a killer build without any proc set.

10k free resist + 10% mitigation + health based heal is too much

MirandaSharp

MentalxHammer wrote: »

There was a zerg of entirely werewolves farming the front of a keep for over an hour tonight in Ravenwatch, many of them not dropping werewolf the whole time. There was literally nothing anyone could do to make a dent in their 40k hp pools, and all they had to do was spam light attacks to effortlessly get kills, it literally left me sick to my stomach as a pvp player.

Was there a full moon?

MentalxHammer

MirandaSharp wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

There was a zerg of entirely werewolves farming the front of a keep for over an hour tonight in Ravenwatch, many of them not dropping werewolf the whole time. There was literally nothing anyone could do to make a dent in their 40k hp pools, and all they had to do was spam light attacks to effortlessly get kills, it literally left me sick to my stomach as a pvp player.

Was there a full moon?

Unfortunately this is happening every night regardless of the moon XD

Cronopoly

Decided to go to the dark side WW Ult with 2 pups as my Vamp has been gutted. Put on Alessian set for starters and was wearing 7 Heavy. Was a blast. Yes I'm setup as a Tank but I don't have any proc sets atm and need to adjust my sustain still.

Of Note - I lived far longer than any other build excepting a specific Perma-Block build. I was only good for a damage soak / distraction which seems to work. I'm sure raid leaders were saying in chat "STOP ATTACKING THE WW TANK 🤬' as I would jump into their midst and swipe the AOE claw, AOE fear etc not doing any damage at all.

That said their DPS toons cannot help attacking the Tank... We all know it's the bane of all realms group leaders and causes many to drink. It helped my AD behind me pick them off. Any experienced DK's and those with Roots got me killed easily enough though....occasionally 😝😭

To the OP, yeah if I had damage too. That might be a problem. I don't...

MentalxHammer

Cronopoly wrote: »

Decided to go to the dark side WW Ult with 2 pups as my Vamp has been gutted. Put on Alessian set for starters and was wearing 7 Heavy. Was a blast. Yes I'm setup as a Tank but I don't have any proc sets atm and need to adjust my sustain still.

Of Note - I lived far longer than any other build excepting a specific Perma-Block build. I was only good for a damage soak / distraction which seems to work. I'm sure raid leaders were saying in chat "STOP ATTACKING THE WW TANK 🤬' as I would jump into their midst and swipe the AOE claw, AOE fear etc not doing any damage at all.

That said their DPS toons cannot help attacking the Tank... We all know it's the bane of all realms group leaders and causes many to drink. It helped my AD behind me pick them off. Any experienced DK's and those with Roots got me killed easily enough though....occasionally 😝😭

To the OP, yeah if I had damage too. That might be a problem. I don't...

It's actually painfully easy to build max res 40k hp WW's that are gushing damage