Do you enjoy the proc set meta in PvP?

MentalxHammer

Do you enjoy the proc set meta in PvP? With the PTS coming to a close, and no changes to the proc meta in sight, I decided to make this poll to provide ZOS with some hard data regarding our opinions on the current meta. Feel free to include your thoughts.

Morwaenna

No

I don't think they use forums polls as hard data when making balancing changes but I voted "no" anyway.

Elo106

No

Well the people have spoken lol

Solariken

Yes

Mostly fine with the idea of proc damage on glass builds, but it's stupid how much these sets play the game for you and let you build like a tank with huge damage.

They need to tighten up proc conditions and scale proc damage on damage stats, and get rid of stupid brainless crap like Thews.

Urzigurumash

Yes

Solariken wrote: »

They need to tighten up proc conditions and scale proc damage on damage stats.

This seems like a good idea, since besides balancing out survivability vs. damage, it will give proc users more incentive to learn, experiment, optimize, and practice, while keeping the hundreds of sets in this game worth farming. As it stands, largely the only thing related to offense one needs to "optimize" when using all proc sets is Penetration. However, I believe the top ends of damage procs would probably need to be higher than what they are today, to keep proc sets from becoming like Pelinal's Aptitude, where the set is equipped only to "transform" damage, rather than increasing net damage output. So long as this higher upper end of damage came with a commensurate loss of defense and sustain, I think it is possible to balance out proc and stat sets in an equitable manner. This could also open up a broader variety of solo anti-group builds besides Mag builds in VD. But I could be wrong about all of that.

Vevvev

No

I don't mind proc sets but right now they're way over tuned, especially with that one mythic ring. I've been able to fight and kill proc set users but it's left me racing to kill them before I run out of magicka. These sets are making them very resource efficient.

Bergzorn

No

No.

techyeshic

No

A global CD would be fine with individual CDs being based on the set. Keep the sets interesting, nail down outliers. Encourage them as a compliment to a build rather than stack just procs, or if you do, you are picking the proc condition based on situation rather than have all go off.

Gilvoth

Yes

i hate metas, and i dont like some sets, but i disagree that proc sets are a problem.
i love that we get new sets in eso every patch it keeps the game exciting and new.
sory, just honest feedback.

Zer0_CooL

I dont enjoy pvp at all. Either you get zerged or your oponent is runing away as soon as his health drops below 30%. PvP is a joke.

MentalxHammer

Gilvoth wrote: »

i hate metas, and i dont like some sets, but i disagree that proc sets are a problem.
i love that we get new sets in eso every patch it keeps the game exciting and new.
sory, just honest feedback.

The excitement of new sets is quickly diminished when you're forced to wear them to compete. I agree that change is good, but not when it's the only option. Yes, traditional builds still work, but they dont hold a candle to someone pumping hp, res', and 3x proc sets. Thanks for to your feedback.

Kartalin

No

During these cyrodiil tests it's really bad if you're magicka -- we can't purge it off quickly enough before they're just reapplied, especially fighting a group of these guys.

People complain about the warden netch, but it takes 5 GCDs for me to purge off what it took a player 1 single attack to apply. Almost as long for Efficient Purge or Extended Ritual since there's a 3 sec cooldown between casts right now.

Zeromaz

No

When will we learn? We’re all supposed to vote YES so ZOS takes it away

zvavi

I just want my skills to work...

Joinovikova

No

worst patch since release... non proc set ups is just.. frustration to play not even close to be competitive. never was meta so much powerfull then any other options.. .. proc meta is super boring to play .. jessus.. I played this game for years and pvp was fun to play even on lets say bad patches the game was still enjoyable and playble on most clases but now ?? most effective way is to stack proc sets and hit one button..

olsborg

No

None of my friends eithr

Nirntrotter

This poll desperately needs an "other" option. I don't enjoy the current situation, but I also don't mind proc sets being a strong option; what I mind is that the whole system is rewarding stacking (dots, purges, cc immunity etc) so extremely.

JayKwellen

No

Nirntrotter wrote: »

This poll desperately needs an "other" option. I don't enjoy the current situation, but I also don't mind proc sets being a strong option; what I mind is that the whole system is rewarding stacking (dots, purges, cc immunity etc) so extremely.

Yeah this right here folks.

I enjoy the current proc meta about as much as I'd enjoy having my member crushed repeatedly by a mallet. That means not at all, for those of you with questionable appetites.

That said...I still think proc sets have their place, and could be incorporated into the game so long as it was done properly. Specifically, I think proc sets that either accentuate a classes strength, or help to band-aid over it's weaknesses, are okay. These are the types of sets that aren't going to win a fight for you, but when used in combination with a classes own innate abilities can be useful to either round out the kit, or improve on it's weaknesses.

Three examples:

1. Venomous Smite on a StamNB. Okay so personally I hate this set, but when used (on it's own) on a StamNB it actually does paper over the one of their weaknesses, which is consistent pressure. That it's based off crit also synergizes well with the class, as they can control the proc at will. Stamblades don't have good DoT/consistent pressure in their class kit outside of their burst window, neither do they have true delayed burst abilities like stamplar, stamden, or stamcro's, so this works well for them and allows for at least some type of playstyle beyond only incap + bow proc.

2. Grothdarr, Valkyn Skoria, or Overwhelming on a MagDK. My main is a vamp magblade, so I hate magDK's in general even more than venomous smite, and that hate only grows when I see grothdarr going off but still, it's another good example of a set that, in this case, accentuates a classes strengths.

3. Caluurion on a (stealth) MagNB. Depending on your outlook, Cal can either be helping a weakness (burst) or improving a strength (burst). I suppose it depends on your outlook regarding the class. Given my own experiences with magblades I believe its the former. Whichever you believe it is, it can't be denied that magblades have issues in PvP. One of these issues is killing power, as they generally lag far behind their stamina cousins in both their ability to burst and their ability to finish kills. Caluurion is the crutch (because lets be honest, in an unfortunate number of cases it truly is the crutch keeping many playstyles viable at all) that allows magblades to actually play the role of the squishy and shifty yet bursty assassin.

The problems just begin when, instead of using a proc set to round out your character you start stacking them to play the game for you. Then you have Malacath which only worsens the problem.

This could of course all be avoided if ZOS changed proc sets so that they either have global cooldowns and can't proc simultaneously, or so that they aren't effected by Malacath, or so multiple proc sets can't be worn simultaneously, or allow them to crit again but also have them scale with stats, or some combination thereof. You could even take your chosen solution and enforce it with battlespirit so that the remaining 99% of the PvE world wouldn't be effected in the slightest. Most of them probably wouldn't even notice. Then you'd have no need to rebalance their DPS or do anything truly silly like balance the classes themselves around sets. There are so many ways with which this this self-inflicted wound could be fixed, and I look forward to seeing none of them being implemented.

Firstmep

No

Solariken wrote: »

Mostly fine with the idea of proc damage on glass builds, but it's stupid how much these sets play the game for you and let you build like a tank with huge damage.

They need to tighten up proc conditions and scale proc damage on damage stats, and get rid of stupid brainless crap like Thews.

Yeah, I have thrown this idea out a while ago and it seems to be a popular idea.
Would solve a lot of issues, both by reducing the effectiveness of stacking procs and by eliminating tanky builds running them.
Why Zos haven't figured this out yet is beyond me.
I like the concept of proc sets, just not in their current implementation.
IMHO procsets could be the replacement for spell crafting even, if they scaled with stats.
Probably too big of an undertaking for the "team" though, so they will probably spreadsheet balance them if it ever comes to that.

JayKwellen

No

Firstmep wrote: »

Probably too big of an undertaking for the "team" though, so they will probably spreadsheet balance them if it ever comes to that.

I'm fairly certain that the whole reason we have the current problems we do is because they were "speadsheet" balanced in the first place. I come to that conclusion because on their own these proc sets are okay, it's only once they're exposed to reality that there are problems -- which is kind of the hallmark of something balanced purely by numbers and nothing else.

Now I don't PvE at all so I can't give you any solid numbers, this is literally just a bunch of wild conjecture on my part.

Anyway, if I had to guess I'd say that they took the damage from these sets and, using whatever internal metric they have for "acceptable proc damage DPS", balanced their proc frequency and overall damage around what parses out to exactly what number they consider appropriate. This wouldn't be out of character or anything as this is typically the approach they take to matters such as this.

The problem is that that system breaks down as soon as it's exposed to reality, or in this case, anything that isn't a parsing dummy. The adage "no plan survives contact with the enemy" comes to mind. If you substitute enemy for 'the dedicated PvP playerbase' (might be the same thing in ZOS's mind at this point, idk), it quickly becomes clear how all the perfect spreadsheet balancing in the world crumbles the second real actual human beings and dynamic situations like PvP are involved.

I'm sure these sets parse perfectly according to their spreadsheet values and make them all very happy that the numbers line up in their tightly controlled testing scenarios. I'm also sure they lacked the imagination to consider the dystopian hellscape they were creating of malacath/grothdarr/overwhelming DK's, and sheer venom/venomous smite/velidreth NB's, and all the other malignant multi-proc combos that are now out there running around terrorizing everyone, everywhere.

MirandaSharp

Gilvoth wrote: »

i hate metas, and i dont like some sets, but i disagree that proc sets are a problem.
i love that we get new sets in eso every patch it keeps the game exciting and new.
sory, just honest feedback.

I find the 'one-shot' maxed out crit builds the most annoying... Set procs just give me an -"Uh, oh! Better get out of range quickly!", but I survive and can get back. Ranged builds should pretty much never really have an issue with proccers as they usually stand too far away to get caught by it..

MirandaSharp

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

I dont enjoy pvp at all. Either you get zerged or your oponent is runing away as soon as his health drops below 30%. PvP is a joke.

I also can't stand PvP, only I do it for the stone farming.. Often I'll just be running about and suddenly I die. Then someone snuck up on be from behind and one-shot me with some ~100% crit chance uber ability. There just isn't much "fighting" in PvP, it's like the old duels in the wild west, the one who draws quickest wins.

Merforum

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

i hate metas, and i dont like some sets, but i disagree that proc sets are a problem.
i love that we get new sets in eso every patch it keeps the game exciting and new.
sory, just honest feedback.

I find the 'one-shot' maxed out crit builds the most annoying... Set procs just give me an -"Uh, oh! Better get out of range quickly!", but I survive and can get back. Ranged builds should pretty much never really have an issue with proccers as they usually stand too far away to get caught by it..

This is exactly correct point of view. CRIT has always been the most toxic, OP, ridiculous aspect of PVP. They best possible change they could make in the whole game would be to eliminate all Crit from PVP completely, but leave it alone in PVE. Then they can tone down the Proc sets a little bit damage wise, but allow proc sets to crit in PVE. Would solve most 'balance' problems, make PVE still fun and make PVP less toxic, and be super simple ti fix with battle spirit.

Recapitated

No

Merforum wrote: »

CRIT has always been the most toxic, OP, ridiculous aspect of PVP.

Merforum wrote: »

I only started PVP several weeks ago

AyaDark

Yes

I like it. The most will dislike anything so ... .

master_vanargand

No

Merforum wrote: »

MirandaSharp wrote: »

Gilvoth wrote: »

i hate metas, and i dont like some sets, but i disagree that proc sets are a problem.
i love that we get new sets in eso every patch it keeps the game exciting and new.
sory, just honest feedback.

I find the 'one-shot' maxed out crit builds the most annoying... Set procs just give me an -"Uh, oh! Better get out of range quickly!", but I survive and can get back. Ranged builds should pretty much never really have an issue with proccers as they usually stand too far away to get caught by it..

This is exactly correct point of view. CRIT has always been the most toxic, OP, ridiculous aspect of PVP. They best possible change they could make in the whole game would be to eliminate all Crit from PVP completely, but leave it alone in PVE. Then they can tone down the Proc sets a little bit damage wise, but allow proc sets to crit in PVE. Would solve most 'balance' problems, make PVE still fun and make PVP less toxic, and be super simple ti fix with battle spirit.

Critical Build has been a PvP joke for many years.
Critical has recently been re-evaluated in PvP, but it's still not too strong.

Goregrinder

Yes

Yeah it shakes things up. I like it better than the DoTbreaker meta we used to have.

Starlight_Whisper

Let's not ruin pve sets for pvp again please

Recapitated

No

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Let's not ruin pve sets for pvp again please

Making sets functional only for PVP or only for PVE is one of the few things ZOS can do to separate the two games without adding convoluted changes to skills in PVP only or making Battle Spirit more complicated.

The long-term consequences of this attitude is that instead of ZOS being able to balance the sets around one particular environment, they will be used in both PvE and PvP, making it impossible to balance the sets in one meta without affecting the other.

For instance, if Relequen got a buff that caused it to be used in PVP for 3 months and OP in PvE -- shutting magicka out of trials -- then the next patch while PvEers were rightfully asking for balance PvPers would be regarding the set as also theirs and demanding it stay the same because they'll have wasted gold mats.

That's what's happening right now. ZOS's rationale for changing proc conditions was to reduce lag, mainly in Cyro. Now these sets are barely, just barely viable in PvE and the two communities are at each other's throats because their use in both environments is hurting one of the few ways to balance them separately. Just let proc sets, especially the ones that are problematic in PVP, be PVP sets balanced around PVP. There are plenty of proc sets that are less viable in PVP, like Ilambris, which are being left alone by PvPers. There is no reason to be wearing Sheer Venom when it's going to be doing next to nothing for the majority of the fight. It's going to be much better for your build options in the long run.

Recapitated

No

JayKwellen wrote: »

Anyway, if I had to guess I'd say that they took the damage from these sets and, using whatever internal metric they have for "acceptable proc damage DPS", balanced their proc frequency and overall damage around what parses out to exactly what number they consider appropriate. This wouldn't be out of character or anything as this is typically the approach they take to matters such as this.

I think in the second patch notes when the Vate 2H proc damage was increased it sounded like that was pretty much the approach, literally just "the added DPS from this set on average was less than procs should be" with no regard for the fact that it's a burst set meant to be used on targets with less than 40k health, not several million.

DTStormfox

No

They should rename PvP to PvPS (Player versus Proc Sets).