Ball Groups - Brainstorming

Oreyn_Bearclaw

First, there are no bad ideas in brain storming.

I am curious what people would purpose if your main goal was to eliminate ball groups from PVP, at least in the short term. To be clear, I am not attacking them as a playstyle. I honestly wish they were viable and compatible with a healthy gameplay experience. I have run in ball groups over the years, and some of the most fun I have ever had in PVP were Ball Group vs Ball Group. But for better or worse, it is 100% clear to anybody that PVPs that the servers simply cant seem to handle them. This isn't about balance, it's about game performance. All of my experience in PVP has lead me to the conclusion that Ball Groups = Crippling Lag. They certainly arent the only problem, but they do seem to be the proverbial elephant in the room.

Until Bill Gates throws down on some shiny new servers, I think ZOS needs to take a hard look at removing them (or greatly mitigating what they can do, thus disincentivizing them).

Some of the ideas I have heard (some practical, some comical, some borderline absurd):

-Cap group size to single digits (this weeks testing came close)
-Delete Purge (perhaps a few other skills to add here?)
-Keep "ally" defined as group member (current test)
-Restrict/cap number of allies any skill can affect (probably needs done via battlespirit, as to not effect PVE raids)
-Friendly fire on AOEs when group size over a certain amount
-Friendly fire AOE DOT (think VMOL final boss) on crown when group size over certain amount (might fall into the absurd category, but I don't hate it)
-Group wide AOE cooldowns
-Increase skill/ultimate cost as group size increases
-Decrease resistance/healing/aoe tooltips as group size increases

I could go on. Just curious what others think. Again, no bad ideas in brainstorming.

Crash427

Add more rollbacks

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Everything worked fine before with more players.

Charon_on_Vacation

limiting playstyle through exterior influence like some of your suggested solutions is usually considered bad dev in the industry.
you want gameplay solutions for stuff like that.
one example: take magicka detonation, increase the damage by a lot, tweak the radius, so its primary use is against ball groups and then decide if you want something like siege shield to negate the effect of it, to make rams and such still viable.

Inaya1

I've been playing this game for quite some time now. Previously, the limit of people in Cyrodiil was simply unimaginable. In my opinion 2k people on the server if memory serves. Now this number is about ~ 300 people (approximately), so Cyrodiil is so empty.

It's simple, ppl in Cyro is being transferred to PVE, because the servers cannot cope with the load of people who came here in PVE (the directed policy of ZOS to increase the number of newbies PVE players and suppress PVP (MORE MONEY!)). This amount will soon end sooner or later and the cyro will simply be closed as unnecessary. In the meantime, it is simply limited in its capabilities.

Do you know why? Because someone is just too lazy to buy new servers :<

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Youyouz06 wrote: »

Everything worked fine before with more players.

I don't disagree, but it has been YEARS since you could say with a straight face that everything is working fine in Cyro. In my experience, and yes, we are all bias by our own experiences, is that ball groups, currently, have a massive and negative impact on performance.

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

limiting playstyle through exterior influence like some of your suggested solutions is usually considered bad dev in the industry.
you want gameplay solutions for stuff like that.
one example: take magicka detonation, increase the damage by a lot, tweak the radius, so its primary use is against ball groups and then decide if you want something like siege shield to negate the effect of it, to make rams and such still viable.

I don't disagree. I believe that play the way you want is important, especially in ESO. But I also believe that personal playstyles need to be addressed in the context of the bigger picture. Overall PVP performance is more important, at least IMO, than specific playstyles.

I do like the example though. You could perhaps make skills/sets like prox det, curse, Vicious death effect group members stronger in way way or another. Would need to be careful, because some of these types of skills are what makes ball groups work in the first place.

idk

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Until Bill Gates throws down on some shiny new servers, I think ZOS needs to take a hard look at removing them (or greatly mitigating what they can do, thus disincentivizing them).

Bill Gates stepped down from the board. Also, MS will not be upgrading the servers as that is at a micromanaging level and they will not start doing that.

Also, unless you eliminate grouping what players try to define as a ball group cannot be eliminated.

TequilaFire

Just say no to solo Cyrodiil!

zaria

An large thigh packed group will always win unless its some way to force them to spread out.
Real world blocks of infantry was the rule until you got rifles and explosive shells in guns in the later part of 19th century.

Still kind of relevant but in niches, the last successful cavalry charge the US was involved in was after year 2000.
Then bombing is multiple b52 with PGM you want to get trough their lines fast

For ESO, an AOE who scales with numbers of enemies in the area. Oblivion damage capped at 50K to avoid PvE exploit.
50K is for more than 24 inside an 8 meter radius.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

idk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Until Bill Gates throws down on some shiny new servers, I think ZOS needs to take a hard look at removing them (or greatly mitigating what they can do, thus disincentivizing them).

Bill Gates stepped down from the board. Also, MS will not be upgrading the servers as that is at a micromanaging level and they will not start doing that.

Also, unless you eliminate grouping what players try to define as a ball group cannot be eliminated.

That was a bit of a joke on the bill gates comment. I dont, however, think it is unreasonable that a new parent company (with massively deep pockets) could ultimately equate to a capital investment in new servers.

I also agree, that even if groups were capped at 4, you would still have groups were 4 people stood right on top of each other and move as one. That said, you could certainly do things to disincentivize that type of behavior.

Also, you people are no fun. Was looking for clever ideas, but of course, people just attack the premise, which is frankly absurd. You can't deny that ball groups negatively impact the servers.

Taleof2Cities

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To be clear, I am not attacking them as a playstyle. I honestly wish they were viable and compatible with a healthy gameplay experience.

Seems like you're contradicting yourself, here, @Oreyn_Bearclaw?

As mentioned in posts above mine, there are a ton of other ways to improve Cyrodiil without removing grouping ... especially when PvP players enjoy playing with their friends.

I don't think this thread will generate much in terms of meaningful discussion (although the other ideas of improving Cyrodiil have already had a lot of feedback -- good and bad).

idk

Charon_on_Vacation wrote: »

limiting playstyle through exterior influence like some of your suggested solutions is usually considered bad dev in the industry.
you want gameplay solutions for stuff like that.

This is a good point.

People tend to not care about changes that limit our gameplay as long as it does not impact them.

OlumoGarbag

It's pretty easy to counter ball groups.
1. Don't follow them
2. Don't run into choke points

If you really wanna counter ball groups time a negate with a root or spam inevitable detonation with a friend. It get triggered when cleansed since they have purge spammers you can hit them with 10k detos every second if your on a bomber.

Crash427

For reals tho, the one way you could change or possibly even eliminate the current ballgroup style play is to have player collision. Itll never happen in ESO, but that would change it.

idk

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Until Bill Gates throws down on some shiny new servers, I think ZOS needs to take a hard look at removing them (or greatly mitigating what they can do, thus disincentivizing them).

Bill Gates stepped down from the board. Also, MS will not be upgrading the servers as that is at a micromanaging level and they will not start doing that.

Also, unless you eliminate grouping what players try to define as a ball group cannot be eliminated.

Also, you people are no fun. Was looking for clever ideas, but of course, people just attack the premise, which is frankly absurd. You can't deny that ball groups negatively impact the servers.

Oh, people have clever ideas. Just not ones that will not heavily impact other aspects of gameplay.

You say we are no fun, we are just being serious about the topic.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

To be clear, I am not attacking them as a playstyle. I honestly wish they were viable and compatible with a healthy gameplay experience.

Seems like you're contradicting yourself, here, @Oreyn_Bearclaw?

As mentioned in posts above mine, there are a ton of other ways to improve Cyrodiil without removing grouping ... especially when PvP players enjoy playing with their friends.

I don't think this thread will generate much in terms of meaningful discussion (although the other ideas of improving Cyrodiil have already had a lot of feedback -- good and bad).

I don't think so at all. What I mean is, I am not judging anyone for wanting to run in a ball group. You wont hear me shame people for zerging, ganking, xv1'ing, whatever, which a lot of people like to do. I get that people like it as a playstyle and in theory, I have no problem with it. I have enjoyed it myself. I am also not one that cries foul when I am attacked by playstyles that some find unacceptable. This isnt about being salty because I got run over by a ball group. I am stating that objectively, ball groups impact EVERYONE's game play experience from a performance standpoint. Those things are very different.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

zaria wrote: »

An large thigh packed group will always win unless its some way to force them to spread out.
Real world blocks of infantry was the rule until you got rifles and explosive shells in guns in the later part of 19th century.

Still kind of relevant but in niches, the last successful cavalry charge the US was involved in was after year 2000.
Then bombing is multiple b52 with PGM you want to get trough their lines fast

For ESO, an AOE who scales with numbers of enemies in the area. Oblivion damage capped at 50K to avoid PvE exploit.
50K is for more than 24 inside an 8 meter radius.

Exactly. That is what I am after. Clever ideas to force ball groups to spread out, that doesn't result in completely eliminating groups from Cyro. You could remove ball groups and probably fix performance over night if you kept the selfish heals of this weeks test and completely eliminated grouping in Cyro, but I am guessing very few people would want that. Was expecting some more imagination from the rest. Ah well...

Aznarb

Invest in a decent server like CUSTOMER deserve.

zaria

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Until Bill Gates throws down on some shiny new servers, I think ZOS needs to take a hard look at removing them (or greatly mitigating what they can do, thus disincentivizing them).

Bill Gates stepped down from the board. Also, MS will not be upgrading the servers as that is at a micromanaging level and they will not start doing that.

Also, unless you eliminate grouping what players try to define as a ball group cannot be eliminated.

That was a bit of a joke on the bill gates comment. I dont, however, think it is unreasonable that a new parent company (with massively deep pockets) could ultimately equate to a capital investment in new servers.

I also agree, that even if groups were capped at 4, you would still have groups were 4 people stood right on top of each other and move as one. That said, you could certainly do things to disincentivize that type of behavior.

Also, you people are no fun. Was looking for clever ideas, but of course, people just attack the premise, which is frankly absurd. You can't deny that ball groups negatively impact the servers.

More so with 4 man groups pugs would not work outside of perhaps taking resources. pvp guilds on discord would still stack and make sure to have one healer in each group.
And as 4 good pvp players can wipe an 24 man pug today it will kill off pugs in cyrodil, who might kill cyrodil

josiahva

Honestly? If you are going to eliminate large scale PvP...make Cyrodiil PvE and stick to IC and BG for small scale PvP...the whole POINT of Cyrodiil is large scale PvP...without large groups its just a bunch of 1vXers running around on rocks in random places.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

josiahva wrote: »

Honestly? If you are going to eliminate large scale PvP...make Cyrodiil PvE and stick to IC and BG for small scale PvP...the whole POINT of Cyrodiil is large scale PvP...without large groups its just a bunch of 1vXers running around on rocks in random places.

Large groups do not necessarily equal ball groups. For example, most Pug Herders (i.e. Zone chat guilds/groups) are specifically NOT ball groups. Yes they are large, but they dont stack on crown, or coordinate builds, buffs, ults and AOES.

When I say ball group. I am generally talking 12-24 people that are all within a meter or two of crown. I have been in PLENTY of massive fights, especially during the testing, with no lag whatsoever. But once an actual ball group gets in the vicinity, performance goes to crap, every freak'n time. It's to the point where when i start to feel the lag, I look for the BG. They are always there.

That is kind of my whole point? How do you keep cyro as a place for large scale battles that allows for grouping, but also makes it very difficult for 20 people to stack on crown and blow up the servers in the process.

CaffeinatedMayhem

TequilaFire wrote: »

Just say no to solo Cyrodiil!

Just say no to running around like a chicken spamming radiating and proxy det.

IMO Cyrodill would be a lot better if grouping was disabled entirely, AND healing skills would only affect yourself. Could grouping still be approximated with Discord? Yes, but no more unkillable wrecking balls.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

idk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Until Bill Gates throws down on some shiny new servers, I think ZOS needs to take a hard look at removing them (or greatly mitigating what they can do, thus disincentivizing them).

Bill Gates stepped down from the board. Also, MS will not be upgrading the servers as that is at a micromanaging level and they will not start doing that.

Also, unless you eliminate grouping what players try to define as a ball group cannot be eliminated.

Also, you people are no fun. Was looking for clever ideas, but of course, people just attack the premise, which is frankly absurd. You can't deny that ball groups negatively impact the servers.

Oh, people have clever ideas. Just not ones that will not heavily impact other aspects of gameplay.

You say we are no fun, we are just being serious about the topic.

And I would like to hear them. Some may be totally impractical, but its also possible that a combination of others might actually result in a good balance. Impacting other gameplay is subjective and relative, especially when the status quo is a borderline unplayable game.

OlumoGarbag wrote: »

It's pretty easy to counter ball groups.
1. Don't follow them
2. Don't run into choke points

If you really wanna counter ball groups time a negate with a root or spam inevitable detonation with a friend. It get triggered when cleansed since they have purge spammers you can hit them with 10k detos every second if your on a bomber.

Missing my point. This is not a thread about how to fight a ball group. It's about how to deter them from forming in the first place. There very existence hurts game performance, methods for fighting them is not what I am after. I am very aware about what to do when a ball group is around.

TequilaFire

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

Just say no to solo Cyrodiil!

Just say no to running around like a chicken spamming radiating and proxy det.

IMO Cyrodill would be a lot better if grouping was disabled entirely, AND healing skills would only affect yourself. Could grouping still be approximated with Discord? Yes, but no more unkillable wrecking balls.

So much misinformation.

OOJIMMY

I'm sure it would cause lag and or trolling, but I wish there was player collision instead of just going through each other.

Jeremy

idk wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Until Bill Gates throws down on some shiny new servers, I think ZOS needs to take a hard look at removing them (or greatly mitigating what they can do, thus disincentivizing them).

Bill Gates stepped down from the board. Also, MS will not be upgrading the servers as that is at a micromanaging level and they will not start doing that.

Also, unless you eliminate grouping what players try to define as a ball group cannot be eliminated.

Why do you consider upgrading servers as "micromanaging"?

Ensuring that the game's server infrastructure can actually accommodate the amount of players who are playing the game sounds like a very basic and reasonable function of any company to me: which is to provide the resources necessary to make their product/game work. And considering Microsoft is one of the richest companies in the world, they can certainly afford it. So I don't see why any of the developers working on ESO would see that as micromanaging their efforts. If anything: I would think they would love to see their servers upgraded. Then maybe they could stop doing all these silly and useless "experiments" to try and make a hopeless situation better and get back to actual game design.

Jeremy

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

First, there are no bad ideas in brain storming.

I am curious what people would purpose if your main goal was to eliminate ball groups from PVP, at least in the short term. To be clear, I am not attacking them as a playstyle. I honestly wish they were viable and compatible with a healthy gameplay experience. I have run in ball groups over the years, and some of the most fun I have ever had in PVP were Ball Group vs Ball Group. But for better or worse, it is 100% clear to anybody that PVPs that the servers simply cant seem to handle them. This isn't about balance, it's about game performance. All of my experience in PVP has lead me to the conclusion that Ball Groups = Crippling Lag. They certainly arent the only problem, but they do seem to be the proverbial elephant in the room.

Until Bill Gates throws down on some shiny new servers, I think ZOS needs to take a hard look at removing them (or greatly mitigating what they can do, thus disincentivizing them).

Some of the ideas I have heard (some practical, some comical, some borderline absurd):

-Cap group size to single digits (this weeks testing came close)
-Delete Purge (perhaps a few other skills to add here?)
-Keep "ally" defined as group member (current test)
-Restrict/cap number of allies any skill can affect (probably needs done via battlespirit, as to not effect PVE raids)
-Friendly fire on AOEs when group size over a certain amount
-Friendly fire AOE DOT (think VMOL final boss) on crown when group size over certain amount (might fall into the absurd category, but I don't hate it)
-Group wide AOE cooldowns
-Increase skill/ultimate cost as group size increases
-Decrease resistance/healing/aoe tooltips as group size increases

I could go on. Just curious what others think. Again, no bad ideas in brainstorming.

Outside of upgrading their servers to where it can handle high volume traffic (my preferred solution) the only other solution I can think of would be to drastically lower the population cap and add more campaigns. Because I doubt anything else is going to work.

Dagoth_Rac

Siege could work like Proxy Det. When you get hit by siege, damage is multiplied by number of group mates within a certain radius. Loosely stacked groups (and pug groups, which tend to be scattered and disorganized by default) would not see much difference in siege damage, but the tightly stacked ball groups running in circles would get wrecked. Siege shield would defend against these attacks, but a stationary defense like siege shield would probably be of limited use for ball groups, which tend to use uninterrupted flow of movement to their advantage.

Another thought? If flags are flipped and doors/walls repaired, any enemy players still inside a keep get insta-killed. Let the NPC guards do a keep-wide AoE that does a million damage or something. Ball groups running around resources, or farming AP while doing circles around rocks between a milegate and keep, would not be affected. But they can be ignored by knowledgeable players who do not want to be AP fodder. But the groups that roll into keeps would not be able to just run around walls or upstairs for an hour. They would have to actually take and hold the keep.

Gnine

The OP set this up as a discussion on how to improve the pvp experience for everyone. It has been shown that ball groups contribute to the server lag and reinforce a poor gameplay experience for everyone involved. Are they the only issue? No. But they are certainly a factor. I believe discussing this issue and thinking of ways to improve the eso pvp experience is an admirable idea. I don't understand how this type of discussion always brings so much negativity when, at its core, this is about improving the pvp gameplay experience for everyone.

A significant factor of the ball group "lag" is that it typically requires a larger group, and I mean much larger, of unorganized players to take down the ball group. This leads to large zergs trying to take down the ball group and further enforces the "faction stack" in one small area. Controlling the power ball groups have could allow more counterplay for smaller groups and finally - lead to the fight ending sooner. In the current iteration they draw out the fight while more and more players join to try and take them out.

I still believe organized groups will and should have power. They have power in their coordination, communication and optimization of builds. However, the way they currently work gives those groups so much power their only counter is numbers or an equally optimized ball group. I think we should introduce additional options of counterplay.

Now on to my thoughts.. the majority of what I will share has been said before. These are not necessarily new ideas but rather things I have heard throughout the eso pvp community that I agree would bring about a more positive pvp experience:

-Limit group sizes: I believe this test has shown improvement - it has not solved everything and certainly no single test will.

-Limit healing to within groups with the exception of single targeted heals: This will give power to organized groups and remove power from faction stack zergs.

-Introduce more meaningful pvp objectives in Cyro: Every night is the same faction stacks at keeps and then ball groups go to those same keeps because that is where the action is. Faction stack + ball group gives us crippling lag. Create more objectives that spread people out.

-Re-work Purge: The current spammable "purge bot" lends a fair amount of power to ball groups' survivability by removing counterplay options from players. Consider a similar ramping cost mechanic as streak? Re-work efficient purge morph?

-Eliminate stacked hots: Part of the ball groups near immortality is stacked heal over times. If you watch a ball group player you will see 4+ regens and about the same number of vigors up at almost all times. This gameplay reduces the need for real healers and gives all players within that group a safety net that opponents don't have access to. This does not encourage positioning well or tactical gameplay - it instead just allows them to run through just about anything due to the exorbitant number of heals ticking every second.

-Re-work Snowtreaders: One tactic to break up ball groups was to snare, slow or separate the members. This no longer works as well when ball groups put this item on. This item further removed ball group counterplay by ensuring the group would have a much easier time sticking together. This is an item that has almost no power for a single player or small group but becomes very strong in an organized ball group that relays on sticking together.

-Re-work sets and skills that were designed to breakup ball groups: The very same sets and skills originally designed to break up this type of gameplay are used by the ball groups to great effect. Sets and skills like det and VD should be more effective when used by solos or smaller groups and less affective when used by larger groups - have the dmg scale vs group size you are in? A solo/duo or small man has to put themselves at a much higher risk using det and/or VD for the same payout as a group running these same skills/sets with 4+ regens/vigors and purge running at all times.

I think a combination of breaking up zergs and introducing counterplay vs. ball groups would lead to an overall better cyro experience for everyone. The thing is we don't need to get rid of ball groups entirely... the good ball groups - they will adapt to any changes and will still be very strong regardless of what happens. Ball group gameplay doesn't have to go away, it just has to be reigned in.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Gnine wrote: »

The OP set this up as a discussion on how to improve the pvp experience for everyone. It has been shown that ball groups contribute to the server lag and reinforce a poor gameplay experience for everyone involved. Are they the only issue? No. But they are certainly a factor. I believe discussing this issue and thinking of ways to improve the eso pvp experience is an admirable idea. I don't understand how this type of discussion always brings so much negativity when, at its core, this is about improving the pvp gameplay experience for everyone.

A significant factor of the ball group "lag" is that it typically requires a larger group, and I mean much larger, of unorganized players to take down the ball group. This leads to large zergs trying to take down the ball group and further enforces the "faction stack" in one small area. Controlling the power ball groups have could allow more counterplay for smaller groups and finally - lead to the fight ending sooner. In the current iteration they draw out the fight while more and more players join to try and take them out.

I still believe organized groups will and should have power. They have power in their coordination, communication and optimization of builds. However, the way they currently work gives those groups so much power their only counter is numbers or an equally optimized ball group. I think we should introduce additional options of counterplay.

Now on to my thoughts.. the majority of what I will share has been said before. These are not necessarily new ideas but rather things I have heard throughout the eso pvp community that I agree would bring about a more positive pvp experience:

-Limit group sizes: I believe this test has shown improvement - it has not solved everything and certainly no single test will.

-Limit healing to within groups with the exception of single targeted heals: This will give power to organized groups and remove power from faction stack zergs.

-Introduce more meaningful pvp objectives in Cyro: Every night is the same faction stacks at keeps and then ball groups go to those same keeps because that is where the action is. Faction stack + ball group gives us crippling lag. Create more objectives that spread people out.

-Re-work Purge: The current spammable "purge bot" lends a fair amount of power to ball groups' survivability by removing counterplay options from players. Consider a similar ramping cost mechanic as streak? Re-work efficient purge morph?

-Eliminate stacked hots: Part of the ball groups near immortality is stacked heal over times. If you watch a ball group player you will see 4+ regens and about the same number of vigors up at almost all times. This gameplay reduces the need for real healers and gives all players within that group a safety net that opponents don't have access to. This does not encourage positioning well or tactical gameplay - it instead just allows them to run through just about anything due to the exorbitant number of heals ticking every second.

-Re-work Snowtreaders: One tactic to break up ball groups was to snare, slow or separate the members. This no longer works as well when ball groups put this item on. This item further removed ball group counterplay by ensuring the group would have a much easier time sticking together. This is an item that has almost no power for a single player or small group but becomes very strong in an organized ball group that relays on sticking together.

-Re-work sets and skills that were designed to breakup ball groups: The very same sets and skills originally designed to break up this type of gameplay are used by the ball groups to great effect. Sets and skills like det and VD should be more effective when used by solos or smaller groups and less affective when used by larger groups - have the dmg scale vs group size you are in? A solo/duo or small man has to put themselves at a much higher risk using det and/or VD for the same payout as a group running these same skills/sets with 4+ regens/vigors and purge running at all times.

I think a combination of breaking up zergs and introducing counterplay vs. ball groups would lead to an overall better cyro experience for everyone. The thing is we don't need to get rid of ball groups entirely... the good ball groups - they will adapt to any changes and will still be very strong regardless of what happens. Ball group gameplay doesn't have to go away, it just has to be reigned in.

Some good points. I didnt realize ball groups were running Snowtreaders, but it does make sense as to why. You also make an excellent point about the fact that a lot things designed to be counterplay against groups, looking at you VD, are more likely to be used effectively by them than against them. One thing probably to consider is that the more conditions we put on a set, the more calcs a server has to do, but I like the idea of VD scaling based on group size. I def dont want VD removed, bombers need to be around if for no other reason than pure comedy.

I think Purge and the stacking of HOTs are two of the biggest reasons that ball groups are virtually unkillable, except as you stated, by either another ball group or overwhelming numbers. I do think Ball Groups were going down a little faster last week, but that might simply have been do to group size.

Joy_Division

It's worth pointing out that if ZOS has to actively step in put significant debuffs for players grouping up in a MMO, that's either a damning indictment of a company that just gave up on its intended purpose or a damning indictment on the player base that they just suck and can't avoid getting farmed.