Why the buff to Wrath Of Elements?

Jierdanit

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/548984/pts-patch-notes-v6-2-3#latest

Wrath of Elements: Increased the damage done with this set to 23710 over 10 seconds, up from 21400 over 10. Each time the tether damage an enemy, it increases in damage by 1%, up to 20 times.

Why are you buffing this set even though its damage was already way too high in the previous PTS cycles? This weapon alone could keep a continuous DPS of 1k - 2k on an enemy in PvP with absolutely zero cost to it and without any option of dodging it outside of Cloak.

It clearly needed a nerf and not a buff and from what ive seen during the dueling on PTS pretty much every PvP player seems to agree with that.

So why are you making it even stronger?

setayco

The buff is so insane its a BiS item for mag procs. Guaranteeing more arena play for this dlc for sure. Keep in mind mag can now have 4 procs with malacath, 40k hp, 30k mag, 17k stam with 20k pen and good healing with 25-28k resists.

kathandira

I've been seeing a theme. Overpower a soon to be released item. Get as many people playing and farming it. Next patch cycle, nerf the hell out of it and implement a new overpowered item. Repeat.

This is ZoS's carrot on a stick, and i'm pretty sick and tired of it.

Wuuffyy

kathandira wrote: »

I've been seeing a theme. Overpower a soon to be released item. Get as many people playing and farming it. Next patch cycle, nerf the hell out of it and implement a new overpowered item. Repeat.

This is ZoS's carrot on a stick, and i'm pretty sick and tired of it.

Agreee. It’ll will be the only thing they want you to use and then they’ll put it in the ground right before they make something stronger to replace it.... it’s unbelievable that we, as a community, fall for this nonsense on a consistent basis. I totally feel like I have no voice on here as an active customer and it’s honestly very frustrating.

YandereGirlfriend

It was buffed because it was quite weak as a PvE option.

The counter to this is pretty straightforward in PvP. It's a tether so simply CC the caster and escape the 15 meter tether range. Not rocket science. This is not a proc effect that sticks with you and it obviously is not burst. If someone is dying to this it then it seems like a "L2P" issue to me.

Olupajmibanan

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It was buffed because it was quite weak as a PvE option.

The counter to this is pretty straightforward in PvP. It's a tether so simply CC the caster and escape the 15 meter tether range. Not rocket science. This is not a proc effect that sticks with you and it obviously is not burst. If someone is dying to this it then it seems like a "L2P" issue to me.

The issue with tethers I always had was that they were plagued by annoying bug that they ignored line of sight. If you hide behind a pillar and your enemy is at the other side of the pillar the tether should instantly break regardless of range.

If this particular tether works as intended, I have no issue with it at all. But if it ignores LoS it might get really strong with very limited number of counterplays available.

Jierdanit

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It was buffed because it was quite weak as a PvE option.

The counter to this is pretty straightforward in PvP. It's a tether so simply CC the caster and escape the 15 meter tether range. Not rocket science. This is not a proc effect that sticks with you and it obviously is not burst. If someone is dying to this it then it seems like a "L2P" issue to me.

so you want a melee pvp build to cc and get out of range of that every 10 seconds? that leaves you with about 3 sec offensive time every proc because it takes you about 1-2 sec to realize you even have it on you, another sec to use the cc and about 2 secs to get out of range and another 2 to get into a good offensive position again.

That is no really working counter because it completely diminishes your own offensive capability and on top of that costs you stam or mag for the cc and you loose the cc for potential offensive combos and that all off a skill that costs nothing and i already in a lot of mag builds without that set.

Ragnaroek93

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

It was buffed because it was quite weak as a PvE option.

The counter to this is pretty straightforward in PvP. It's a tether so simply CC the caster and escape the 15 meter tether range. Not rocket science. This is not a proc effect that sticks with you and it obviously is not burst. If someone is dying to this it then it seems like a "L2P" issue to me.

Do you want to attack too or just hug a pillar/tree/rock for the entire fight because that's what this set forces you to do. It's the definition of garbage game design.

YandereGirlfriend

@Jierdanit This set is trivial compared to existing proc sets, especially the burst sets.

In non-CP (where procs are the larger problem) it's 23710 (base damage) * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) * 0.6 (average 40% player mitigation) / 10 seconds = 711 DPS.

Maybe it scales to 711 * 1.10 (max single-target tether bonus) = 782 DPS for its final tick but honestly, if you are dying to or being overly pressured by that then there are bigger problems with your build than the tether damage.

Sure, you can stack it with other sets but Stamina users can already do this with Merciless Charge (which sticks to you and does its damage faster) and mentioning Malacath is more a reason to nerf Malacath than it is to adjust this set.

Focus your attention on trying to get Malacath to no longer work with proc sets. That is the single most beneficial nerf that we can achieve for PvP and it would, with one nerf, substantially weaken the proc set meta.

katorga

If it functions as well as the necro shocking siphon tether, no one will use it, lol.

Seems like a reasonable anti-melee tool, procs icy conjuror, returns magicka from magicka steal. Might be fun on my no-shields melee mag sorc. It is going to be a bear on overwhelming/grothdarr DKs. I wonder if the flame tether gets lengthened by elf bane?

Jierdanit

katorga wrote: »

If it functions as well as the necro shocking siphon tether, no one will use it, lol.

Seems like a reasonable anti-melee tool, procs icy conjuror, returns magicka from magicka steal. Might be fun on my no-shields melee mag sorc. It is going to be a bear on overwhelming/grothdarr DKs. I wonder if the flame tether gets lengthened by elf bane?

It is way better than the necro siphon, because it deals damage to the person you proc it on, not only the ones in between you and the player.

YandereGirlfriend

@katorga From what I understand it randomly cycles through the elements rather than changing to match the type of your Destruction Staff, which is, IMO, unfortunate for build diversity. So I doubt that Elf Bane would work on it.

Starlight_Whisper

Jierdanit wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/548984/pts-patch-notes-v6-2-3#latest

Wrath of Elements: Increased the damage done with this set to 23710 over 10 seconds, up from 21400 over 10. Each time the tether damage an enemy, it increases in damage by 1%, up to 20 times.

Why are you buffing this set even though its damage was already way too high in the previous PTS cycles? This weapon alone could keep a continuous DPS of 1k - 2k on an enemy in PvP with absolutely zero cost to it and without any option of dodging it outside of Cloak.

It clearly needed a nerf and not a buff and from what ive seen during the dueling on PTS pretty much every PvP player seems to agree with that.

So why are you making it even stronger?

No dps was looking at it before. This makes it useable

Jierdanit

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Jierdanit This set is trivial compared to existing proc sets, especially the burst sets.

In non-CP (where procs are the larger problem) it's 23710 (base damage) * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) * 0.6 (average 40% player mitigation) / 10 seconds = 711 DPS.

Maybe it scales to 711 * 1.10 (max single-target tether bonus) = 782 DPS for its final tick but honestly, if you are dying to or being overly pressured by that then there are bigger problems with your build than the tether damage.

Sure, you can stack it with other sets but Stamina users can already do this with Merciless Charge (which sticks to you and does its damage faster) and mentioning Malacath is more a reason to nerf Malacath than it is to adjust this set.

Focus your attention on trying to get Malacath to no longer work with proc sets. That is the single most beneficial nerf that we can achieve for PvP and it would, with one nerf, substantially weaken the proc set meta.

The average dmg of each tick of the set was about 1k in the duels i could look at in Combat Metrics (those were all before the buffs this patch). That is 1k continuous dps without the other person actually doing anything other than putting a FREE debuff on you every 10 seconds that also does Major Breach and Minor Magickasteal.

During that 1k DPS from a proc set the player can still attack you with other stuff and do more DPS which pretty much just has 1k added on top of it.

In addition to that, this Proc"set" literally only takes up 2 slots (and is still at least as strong or even stronger than nearly all 5 piece procsets), which means that you can easily pair it with 2 5 piece sets and a Monster set.
Due to this right now a lot of Mag Builds are playing with a normal 5 5 2 setup and just put this weapon in for a free extra 1k dps. There are builds which are full defense and are just doing damage with proc sets with about 3 - 4k permanent DPS.

You really want to tell me that thats not broken?
There is a reason why every seriously build MagDK, MagDen, MagCro and MagPlar is playing that weapon atm.

Jierdanit

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/548984/pts-patch-notes-v6-2-3#latest

Wrath of Elements: Increased the damage done with this set to 23710 over 10 seconds, up from 21400 over 10. Each time the tether damage an enemy, it increases in damage by 1%, up to 20 times.

Why are you buffing this set even though its damage was already way too high in the previous PTS cycles? This weapon alone could keep a continuous DPS of 1k - 2k on an enemy in PvP with absolutely zero cost to it and without any option of dodging it outside of Cloak.

It clearly needed a nerf and not a buff and from what ive seen during the dueling on PTS pretty much every PvP player seems to agree with that.

So why are you making it even stronger?

No dps was looking at it before. This makes it useable

That makes it usable for Pve and an absolute must have for PvP on any mag build.

Atherakhia

Jierdanit wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/548984/pts-patch-notes-v6-2-3#latest

Wrath of Elements: Increased the damage done with this set to 23710 over 10 seconds, up from 21400 over 10. Each time the tether damage an enemy, it increases in damage by 1%, up to 20 times.

Why are you buffing this set even though its damage was already way too high in the previous PTS cycles? This weapon alone could keep a continuous DPS of 1k - 2k on an enemy in PvP with absolutely zero cost to it and without any option of dodging it outside of Cloak.

It clearly needed a nerf and not a buff and from what ive seen during the dueling on PTS pretty much every PvP player seems to agree with that.

So why are you making it even stronger?

No dps was looking at it before. This makes it useable

That makes it usable for Pve and an absolute must have for PvP on any mag build.

This change isn't going to make it a must any more than it was prior. It will take eons to stack to max stacks and maintaining LOS and no counter CC for the duration is never going to happen. I could see people use it, but not significantly more because of this change.

Personally, I'm only looking forward to it because the majority of monster helms are bad and I'd rather use 2 monster weapon sets than a helm. So I look forward to finally having another good monster weapon that's suitable for mag.

Taleof2Cities

Has anyone tested the upgraded weapon on PTS?

Talking about theory is fine ... but that only gets the discussion to a certain point where it can spill over into conjecture.

Especially when comparing the tether to "something that's in the game now that I've personally had problems with in the past."

FrancisCrawford

I presume the debuffs are purgeable but the tether damage is not?

Jierdanit

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Has anyone tested the upgraded weapon on PTS?

Talking about theory is fine ... but that only gets the discussion to a certain point where it can spill over into conjecture.

Especially when comparing the tether to "something that's in the game now that I've personally had problems with in the past."

Im not talking about theory, i am talking about the experience i have from dueling on the PTS where this Destro is now one of the most used sets and by far the most used set on mag chars.

Jierdanit

Atherakhia wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Starlight_Whisper wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/548984/pts-patch-notes-v6-2-3#latest

Wrath of Elements: Increased the damage done with this set to 23710 over 10 seconds, up from 21400 over 10. Each time the tether damage an enemy, it increases in damage by 1%, up to 20 times.

Why are you buffing this set even though its damage was already way too high in the previous PTS cycles? This weapon alone could keep a continuous DPS of 1k - 2k on an enemy in PvP with absolutely zero cost to it and without any option of dodging it outside of Cloak.

It clearly needed a nerf and not a buff and from what ive seen during the dueling on PTS pretty much every PvP player seems to agree with that.

So why are you making it even stronger?

No dps was looking at it before. This makes it useable

That makes it usable for Pve and an absolute must have for PvP on any mag build.

This change isn't going to make it a must any more than it was prior. It will take eons to stack to max stacks and maintaining LOS and no counter CC for the duration is never going to happen. I could see people use it, but not significantly more because of this change.

Personally, I'm only looking forward to it because the majority of monster helms are bad and I'd rather use 2 monster weapon sets than a helm. So I look forward to finally having another good monster weapon that's suitable for mag.

The LOS and counter CC parts are certainly true in most open world scenarios e.g. 1vX, XvX or Xv1, but it is not going to be true in a lot of BG fights and especially not in duels, where this set is certainly the strongest.

YandereGirlfriend

@Jierdanit Yes, I'm saying that it's fine as a compromise between different players that have different and competing interests.

Item sets shouldn't be balanced around dueling as that is the pursuit of a relatively small handful of elite PvP players. And the interests of that small group does not override the interests of everyone else. For an honest duel, most already ban damage proc sets.

It is, of course, a harder problem for BGs and non-CP Cyrodiil, but it's not a fire-and-forget proc (since the tether can be broken), it can only be used within gap-closing distance, and it doesn't provide burst. That bumps it way down the toxicity totem pole compared to the worst proc set offenders. It's tied to a strong skill but that proc condition isn't any easier than "do damage" or "on Light Attack" like so many sets are now.

Getting Malacath's nerfed to no longer work with proc sets remains the Holy Grail of PvP balance since ZOS is never going to go back through ~50+ proc sets and nerf them all individually. At least not any time soon.

I'll agree though that if LOS does not work to break the tether then it absolutely should be fixed to do so. That change alone would enable more than enough counter-play to balance the set in PvP.

VoidCommander

It needed a buff because in pve it was still underperforming compared to the maelstrom staff. Don’t get me wrong, it was almost there, but it wasn’t quite worth missing out on the light attack damage buff (especially on magplar with constant empower).

With these new buffs, the ability now can hit multiple enemies (unlike maelstrom staff) and will deal about the same amount of damage if not more than the maelstrom staff.

I get that pvp people are worried that its too much damage, but you can literally roll dodge backwards and that would almost be enough to break the tether. Additionally, this ability is comparable in damage and range to undaunted orbs, and yet you don’t see people complaining about those in pvp. I highly doubt this will become the new meta for pvp, but I hope it can become an alternate stand for magicka dps to use. This way healers can do more healing and less debuffing.

wheem_ESO

VoidCommander wrote: »

It needed a buff because in pve it was still underperforming compared to the maelstrom staff. Don’t get me wrong, it was almost there, but it wasn’t quite worth missing out on the light attack damage buff (especially on magplar with constant empower).

With these new buffs, the ability now can hit multiple enemies (unlike maelstrom staff) and will deal about the same amount of damage if not more than the maelstrom staff.

I get that pvp people are worried that its too much damage, but you can literally roll dodge backwards and that would almost be enough to break the tether. Additionally, this ability is comparable in damage and range to undaunted orbs, and yet you don’t see people complaining about those in pvp. I highly doubt this will become the new meta for pvp, but I hope it can become an alternate stand for magicka dps to use. This way healers can do more healing and less debuffing.

"Just dodge roll backwards" isn't a realistic solution for PvP, especially when you factor in snares, gap closers, and CC. My Magicka Necromancer isn't likely to be able to escape most other Magicka builds that would be running this staff, and also wouldn't be able to utilize it as effectively as most of them. My only real offense-oriented CC option is Flame Clench, which could potentially knock the target out of my tether, I have no gap closer, no reliable and on-demand root/snare (Grave Grasp is way too slow).

While I like the idea of being able to use this staff as an anti-Stam-melee tool - they have been far too dominant for far too long now - I don't really care for the fact that it would benefit all the other Magicka classes more than it would my own, despite the fact that they're already superior in virtually every other way when it comes to offensive power. I also don't like being forced to do a potentially significant amount of PvE just to be able to get on a level playing field in PvP.

As to whether the damage numbers themselves are too overpowered or not, I can't say, since I haven't actually tested it myself. And since the only PvP that is likely to be happening on the PTS right now is pre-arranged duels in someone's house, I doubt I'll get the opportunity before it goes live (and duels don't really give you an accurate depiction of "real" PvP, anyway).

I also have to wonder if we'd end up seeing some Stamina builds running this on the backbar with Maelstrom 2h on the front bar, keeping this "proc" up alongside the multiple DOTs from gap close spamming on their front bar.

Gnine

I understand why people are upset about adding more proc/free damage to pvp - I hear you and agree. I wish procs was not the direction the combat team was taking.

That said, I think that if we have to have proc sets... more of them should be designed like this. This is a set that requires you to take an action and then you get a payout for that action. Additionally, it requires you to plan your strategy to maximize the payout of the set (stuns/snares/etc). This is very different from a lot of proc sets in our current meta that just require you to light attack/poison inject and then you get the maximum payout from the proc (or two). This set, while potentially very strong in certain scenarios, will rarely see it's maximum payout in a real pvp situation (with the exception of duels). Again, in direct violation of other sets that will always see their maximum payout for much less effort.

Regardless of what you think of this individual item, and it very well may need damage tuning - I think more procs should be designed like this. Allow for counterplay and don't automatically award the full payout up front.

Austinseph1

It's probably useable in PvP but in PvE ain't no dps going to be running weakness and using it every 10 seconds... It's a poorly designed set for PvE especially with the full 10s cool down and range. It's like an awful version of zaan.

Joy_Division

Jierdanit wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Jierdanit This set is trivial compared to existing proc sets, especially the burst sets.

In non-CP (where procs are the larger problem) it's 23710 (base damage) * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) * 0.6 (average 40% player mitigation) / 10 seconds = 711 DPS.

Maybe it scales to 711 * 1.10 (max single-target tether bonus) = 782 DPS for its final tick but honestly, if you are dying to or being overly pressured by that then there are bigger problems with your build than the tether damage.

Sure, you can stack it with other sets but Stamina users can already do this with Merciless Charge (which sticks to you and does its damage faster) and mentioning Malacath is more a reason to nerf Malacath than it is to adjust this set.

Focus your attention on trying to get Malacath to no longer work with proc sets. That is the single most beneficial nerf that we can achieve for PvP and it would, with one nerf, substantially weaken the proc set meta.

The average dmg of each tick of the set was about 1k in the duels i could look at in Combat Metrics (those were all before the buffs this patch). That is 1k continuous dps without the other person actually doing anything other than putting a FREE debuff on you every 10 seconds that also does Major Breach and Minor Magickasteal.

During that 1k DPS from a proc set the player can still attack you with other stuff and do more DPS which pretty much just has 1k added on top of it.

In addition to that, this Proc"set" literally only takes up 2 slots (and is still at least as strong or even stronger than nearly all 5 piece procsets), which means that you can easily pair it with 2 5 piece sets and a Monster set.
Due to this right now a lot of Mag Builds are playing with a normal 5 5 2 setup and just put this weapon in for a free extra 1k dps. There are builds which are full defense and are just doing damage with proc sets with about 3 - 4k permanent DPS.

You really want to tell me that thats not broken?
There is a reason why every seriously build MagDK, MagDen, MagCro and MagPlar is playing that weapon atm.

This is the way ZOS's proc sets work. What you say about taking up 2 slots, free damage on top of the ability, etc., applies to the scattershot bow from blackrose. ZoS buffed the set because all proc sets are ridiculously strong and it's got to fit their standard, especially because it's an arena attached to a DLC.

Atherakhia

1k damage is about on par with every other proc set. Why would this be OP and things like Maelstrom 2h, Master DW, etc aren't? Other than the obvious fact that this is Elder Stamina Online and how DARE mag get anything remotely viable.

Jierdanit

Atherakhia wrote: »

1k damage is about on par with every other proc set. Why would this be OP and things like Maelstrom 2h, Master DW, etc aren't? Other than the obvious fact that this is Elder Stamina Online and how DARE mag get anything remotely viable.

have you tried it?

HankTwo

I agree, it looks pretty op to be honest. With the damage increase over time it deals ~ 24.9k damage unbuffed over 10 seconds with no downtime. This would be ~ 31k with malacath. And while you can get out of zaan most of the time, keep in mind that this set has almost twice the range with 15 meters. On top of that the apply is on demand, costs no resources and afaik cant be dodged. I think it will be very toxic in duels and fights on more open fields in general.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Jierdanit This set is trivial compared to existing proc sets, especially the burst sets.

In non-CP (where procs are the larger problem) it's 23710 (base damage) * 0.5 (Battle Spirit) * 0.6 (average 40% player mitigation) / 10 seconds = 711 DPS.

Maybe it scales to 711 * 1.10 (max single-target tether bonus) = 782 DPS for its final tick but honestly, if you are dying to or being overly pressured by that then there are bigger problems with your build than the tether damage.

Sure, you can stack it with other sets but Stamina users can already do this with Merciless Charge (which sticks to you and does its damage faster) and mentioning Malacath is more a reason to nerf Malacath than it is to adjust this set.

Focus your attention on trying to get Malacath to no longer work with proc sets. That is the single most beneficial nerf that we can achieve for PvP and it would, with one nerf, substantially weaken the proc set meta.

The fact that you think a two piece set that deals ~747 true damage unbuffed & per second as constant pressure against a player with 40% true mitigation (and therefore after penetration) in PvP is pretty showing. But be my guest and show me a two piece max stat set with such potential.

Lets look at master destro as an example, shall we? And to make this comparison more in favor of it lets say it just adds the 600 spell damage permanently without you having to do anything. If you had 3k spell damage and 30k max mag before adding this, the extra 600 spell damage, buffed by major sorcery to 720, would increase your damage by (10.5 * 3720 + 30000) / (10.5 * 3000 + 30000) = 1.122927, so roughly 12.3 %.

Now, lets see how much damage you would need to deal on average per second for this hypothetical version of master destro to outperform wrath of elements: x * 1.123 = x +747 --> x = 747 / 0.123 --> x = 6073 true damage per second or 20243 tooltip damage (with battlespirit and 40% target mitigation) every single second without pause from skills & light/heavy attacks only. With malacath that would be 7591 true damage or 25304 tooltip . Don't get me wrong, for sure you can deal more damage than that during burst, but on average every second without pause? I mean lemme put it this way, what do you think is the actual average dps in a duel between two good players of equal skill, both running builds with 40% true mitigation?

Atherakhia wrote: »

1k damage is about on par with every other proc set. Why would this be OP and things like Maelstrom 2h, Master DW, etc aren't? Other than the obvious fact that this is Elder Stamina Online and how DARE mag get anything remotely viable.

Master DW adds 3270 extra damage initially and then another 1635 every following 2 seconds. This gives you a total of 11445 damage over 10 seconds. Yes, it can crit, but with most proc builds running malacath this is pretty much a non-factor. Meanwhile, the new wrath of elements deals ~24.9k damage over the same duration. Thats more than twice as much, so please stop spreading false information.

Firstmep

Between this, zaan and draugrkin we might see some intersting new builds pop up.

Jierdanit

Firstmep wrote: »

Between this, zaan and draugrkin we might see some intersting new builds pop up.

"interesting" xD