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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Temporal Consolidation of the Aldmeri Dominion
Enodoc
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or Maintaining continuity of a linear storyline in a non-linear world
Moreso than any other alliance storyline, that of the Aldmeri Dominion was clearly written to progress from start to end linearly, developing characters and story along the way. With the launch of One Tamriel, this continuity was broken as it became much easier to do zone quest chains out-of-order. In most alliances, this is negligible, as the zones are not usually directly connected, but in the Dominion, it is much more noticeable, as characters who die in one zone appear alive in what would have been a "previous" zone under the original linear storyline.
This thread is an attempt to fix that discontinuity by addressing each issue and providing possible solutions, and should be seen as a companion to my 2016 thread Cadwell's Almanac and the Alliance Story.
A summary of the issues, if you don't want to go back to the other thread to read them:
It's not so easy to split the solutions up into nice little bits like that, since to maintain the primary integrity of the storyline (i.e., the main plot), things that are interconnected must change their interconnections. So we'll start with the thing that has most connections:
The Death of Naemon: Primary Dependency
Vicereeve Pelidil goes crazy and steals the Staff of Magnus supposedly because of Naemon's death. But as a member of the Veiled Heritance, there could easily be any number of other reasons for stealing the staff, so here, references and inferences to Naemon's death being the motive can be removed, and replaced with ambiguous Veiled Heritance guff.
Pelidil also attempts to raise the deceased Naemon as a lich, but this results in the Shade of Naemon, specifically noted as "something else" and "not (just) the original Naemon". This could easily be altered (through dialogue references and inferences) to make the lich a "shadow duplicate" created by the Staff of Magnus, rather than a "resurrection", allowing the original Naemon to theoretically co-exist with it. Timeline references should also be adjusted to infer that it was a while ago that Pelidil created the lich, rather than the current inference that suggests it happened "just before you got there". His motivation for stealing the Staff of Magnus will also need to be altered slightly, particularly if we are now saying the "shadow duplicate" lich was created earlier (maybe he thought he could use the Staff to control it, rather than create it).
That covers off the primary dependencies of Naemon's death, which means Pelidil's activities and the Shade of Naemon can now exist without Naemon himself actually being dead.
That in turn unravels a temporal strand in Greenshade, meaning we can now address:
Indaenir, and his Appointment as the Silvenar
It is an unequivocal truth that Indaenir must become the Silvenar (in Greenshade) before he is abducted for being the Silvenar (in Malabal Tor). The only way this can work, if you complete Malabal Tor first, is by putting the Green's Marrow region of Greenshade in a temporal bubble. Chronologically, that has to happen first, even if you actually do it afterwards, so this needs to be stated as part of the questline. Story-wise, we know the tales of the Spinners can have actual repercussions in the world - this is already a part of the Wilderking Court storyline in Greenshade, where the Spinner puts you into Aranias' story, thus affecting her memories, and the Valeguard story quest in Malabal Tor, where you have to fix the Spinner's story of the Silvenar and Green Lady.
In this case then, the story of how Indaenir became the Silvenar can be refactored into a Spinner story, with you being inserted into the story to ensure the Shade of Naemon doesn't corrupt the tale with the power of the Shadow Wood. As you approach one of the relevant locations (Driladan Pass, Dread Vullain, Verrant Morass, or Hectahame), a Spinner would appear (we'll say it's Spinner Maruin, but it doesn't need to be) and tell you that either: (if you've already met the Silvenar in Malabal Tor) the tale of the Silvenar's rise is in danger of being corrupted; or (if you already know about the Shade of Naemon by doing the rest of Greenshade) the Shade of Naemon is corrupting the Heart of Valenwood; or (if you haven't yet gone to Malabal Tor or found out about the Shade) the tale of the Valenheart is being corrupted by unknown forces.
Regardless, you must enter the story to cleanse the corruption from the region and ensure that the here and now is not affected by someone messing with stories of the past. If you don't yet know about Indaenir, you won't be informed that it is his story that you are trying to save. Now this could all just exist as dialogue exposition, or it could directly kick off a new quest (or a refactored "Shades of Green") with the objective to "Cleanse the corruption from the story of the Heart of Valenwood" (or something like that). Completing the whole thing would result in Maruin stating that thanks to your efforts, the story of the Silvenar and the Heart of Valenwood continues to be spun.
This indirectly also addresses the issues with Akkhuz-ri, Shazah, and Khali, as if they are here as part of a Spinner's story, it doesn't matter if they're already dead/corrupted/defamed in the "real world".
This also gives a good hook into ensuring the story of the previous Silvenar is appropriately "spun down":
Edhelorn, and his Death in Mistral
Edhelorn theoretically must die before Indaenir can become the Silvenar, otherwise, we don't need a new Silvenar. Sorting this one out is more difficult, as while the same "Spinner story" approach could work, your actions this time would be to specifically not change or fix anything, which counters the approach that this concept has taken before where you are inserted into stories to maintain or influence them by changing someone else's actions. (If you thought you could change the outcome, you could logically try to save the Silvenar, which is not possible anyway, and if it was, would break continuity everywhere else.)
This means that, as a Spinner story, you'd need to be inserted into the story specifically to understand what happened, rather than to change it. There are a few ways this could be implemented, but additional dialogue attached to Edhelorn himself may be the best approach - something along the lines of "You're not Indaenir" being an option during his diaogue about being the Silvenar. His initial response would likely be confusion, but as we have seen with certain other characters, it's possible for you to be detected as someone out of time, and so that can be used again here. "I do not know this Indaenir you speak of, but if the Valenheart has chosen him, then my story must already be over / must be coming to an end. I wonder why the Green has decided to ensure you are included in that story..."
Another option could be to have a projection of Indaenir appearing near the start of the Mistral quest to explain that you have been put into this story to see what happened here between the Maormer and the Dominion, and that while you can't change the outcome, this experience will help you understand how some of the events you have already seen came about.
A similar but different approach which doesn't rely on a Spinner story (and is therefore my preferred option) would be to imply that the Maormer storm or some other plot device connected to the Khenarthi storyline has severed Edhelorn's metaphysical connection to the Valenheart, meaning it has chosen a new Silvenar even though the old one is technically still alive. This could be introduced with the same "You're not Indaenir" approach, but the response dialogue in this instance would focus on how Edhelorn felt his connection to the Green being severed by the mystical forces behind that first hurricane (the one that occurs before you arrive). The hurricane not only trapped him on the island, but its mystic properties also mean that he can now never return to Valenwood as their Silvenar. (From the perspective of characters in other zones, they may have thought he was just killed in the storm.)
Something along those lines may be sufficient enough already to imply that the story here is taking place out of normal time, and can therefore also indirectly explain why Pelidil is here, even if you've already killed him in Greenshade. An alternative solution for Pelidil (which fits better with the "severed connection" approach that isn't presented as out-of-time) is just to replace him with a generic Vicereeve, since he's only mentioned by name in a couple of instances which could easily be changed to "the Vicereeve".
Having explained away Pelidil, that leads us back to:
The Death of Naemon: Secondary Dependency
This mainly refers to his appearances on Auridon, which would be impossible if he were already dead. For the most part, his actions here can be replaced by other generic Altmer or just removed, as they are mostly flavour text and inserts for additional colour. It might be good to add a couple of passing remarks to Estre as a counter to removing him if he's already dead, as that could give her additional motivation for her Veiled Heritance activities. Estre could also directly replace Naemon as the quest-giver of the Tanzelwil quest as she's right there anyway. Pelidil as well could just be removed from Auridon if Grahtwood is already complete, as he's only there for additional flavour.
The rest of the Estre and Naemon dynamic mostly plays out in Grahtwood (and Pelidil's there too), but that's just dialogue that can be removed or changed, and Pelidil has no major role so can be removed if he's already dead. Either way, we could even throw in a bit of a reference to the Shade of Naemon duplicate as passing dialogue from Naemon himself (either a poor attempt at praise for defeating it, or a passing remark wondering what Pelidil has been up to).
With Naemon's dependencies all untangled, that just leaves one loose end:
The End of the Tale: Treehenge
The quests at Treehenge only exist because Finoriell, the Green Lady from Khenarthi's Roost, is dead. The best solution here, while a bit of a cop-out, it to take the "Veya is Tundilwen, but only if you already know her" approach - if you haven't done Khenarthi's Roost, the character you assist at Treehenge is just a generic former "Green Lady". With a couple of tweaks to the character dialogue, the essence of this quest isn't affected.
And there we have it. A much-needed follow-up to my 2016 post, finally closing off my suggestions for making an already excellent set of storylines into a coherent narrative experience, regardless of the order you do the content in. At least, where the base-game content is concerned.
(I haven't played AD for a while, so please do call anything out if it turns out I missed anything....)
Moreso than any other alliance storyline, that of the Aldmeri Dominion was clearly written to progress from start to end linearly, developing characters and story along the way. With the launch of One Tamriel, this continuity was broken as it became much easier to do zone quest chains out-of-order. In most alliances, this is negligible, as the zones are not usually directly connected, but in the Dominion, it is much more noticeable, as characters who die in one zone appear alive in what would have been a "previous" zone under the original linear storyline.
This thread is an attempt to fix that discontinuity by addressing each issue and providing possible solutions, and should be seen as a companion to my 2016 thread Cadwell's Almanac and the Alliance Story.
A summary of the issues, if you don't want to go back to the other thread to read them:
- Indaenir is the Silvenar. Affecting: Malabal Tor, Greenshade
- If you play through the last quests of Greenshade after Malabal Tor, this will make no sense, as it is during the quests in Greenshade that Indaenir has his "first reveal" as the new Silvenar. You already know there is a Silvenar, as you've been chasing him all over Malabal Tor, so the reveal would be out of place.
- Indaenir being revealed as the Silvenar is the entire reason for the Malabal Tor storyline to exist. The only way that could be addressed is, if you do Malabal Tor first, he must already know he's the Silvenar, and what happens to him in Valenheart if you do that afterwards is not a surprise. But that doesn't really make sense, as the "reveal" itself is the important thing for his character development in Greenshade.
- The Silvenar is Dead, Long Live the Silvenar. Affecting: Malabal Tor, Khenarthi's Roost
- The deaths of the Silvenar and Green Lady in Mistral are relevant to storylines which occur "later", as the new Silvenar and Green Lady are revealed in Greenshade and Malabal Tor, and the previous Green Lady is laid to rest in Treehenge.
- The primary storyline in Malabal Tor only exists at all because the previous Silvenar and Green Lady died on Khenarthi's Roost.
- I said before that there's not really much that can be done about that discontinuity if you decide to play Khenarthi's Roost late, but hopefully here I can think of something different.
- The (Dark) Mane(s). Affecting: Reaper's March, Greenshade
- This one was addressed already in the previous thread. In Driladan Pass, you rescue the Mane, but if you've done anything in Reaper's March, he's not the Mane any more. This could easily be addressed simply by him being able to retain the title without holding the position, but another solution is possible with the suggested changes to Greenshade, below.
- I forgot to mention this one last time, but Shazah and Khali turn up as the Lunar Champions when you are at Hectahame. If one of them is already the Mane and the other one is the Dark Mane (i.e., dead or heading that way), this makes no sense.
- PRINCE NAEMON, the Chronometric Singularity. Affecting: Greenshade, Grahtwood, Auridon, Khenarthi's Roost
- In Greenshade, Prince Naemon is raised as a lich, which means he must already be dead. But if you haven't yet completed Grahtwood, he won't be dead.
- Prince Naemon dies at the end of the Grahtwood story. The entirety of the Greenshade storyline (barring the Wilderking section) exists because Naemon is dead. Pelidil goes off his rocker and steals the Staff of Magnus directly as a result.
- If you've already completed Grahtwood before tackling Auridon, Naemon should be dead, despite the fact that he turns up in a number of Auridon quests.
- Naemon isn't directly connected to the Khenarthi's Roost plot, but Pelidil is, as the primary Altmer diplomat during the mission. If he's already gone off his rocker, he wouldn't be doing this.
- Fix Prince Naemon's chronometric dependencies, and you get a significant amount of temporal lucidity through which to address everything else.
- Estre and the Veil of Death. Affecting: Grahtwood, Auridon
- Naemon is partly acting the way he is in Grahtwood because of the death of Estre, which will only have happened if you've completed Auridon.
- Mentions of Estre's betrayal and death are also thrown around quite liberally in the "later" Dominion zones; if you have yet to complete Auridon, such dialogue lines should be removed.
It's not so easy to split the solutions up into nice little bits like that, since to maintain the primary integrity of the storyline (i.e., the main plot), things that are interconnected must change their interconnections. So we'll start with the thing that has most connections:
The Death of Naemon: Primary Dependency
Vicereeve Pelidil goes crazy and steals the Staff of Magnus supposedly because of Naemon's death. But as a member of the Veiled Heritance, there could easily be any number of other reasons for stealing the staff, so here, references and inferences to Naemon's death being the motive can be removed, and replaced with ambiguous Veiled Heritance guff.
Pelidil also attempts to raise the deceased Naemon as a lich, but this results in the Shade of Naemon, specifically noted as "something else" and "not (just) the original Naemon". This could easily be altered (through dialogue references and inferences) to make the lich a "shadow duplicate" created by the Staff of Magnus, rather than a "resurrection", allowing the original Naemon to theoretically co-exist with it. Timeline references should also be adjusted to infer that it was a while ago that Pelidil created the lich, rather than the current inference that suggests it happened "just before you got there". His motivation for stealing the Staff of Magnus will also need to be altered slightly, particularly if we are now saying the "shadow duplicate" lich was created earlier (maybe he thought he could use the Staff to control it, rather than create it).
That covers off the primary dependencies of Naemon's death, which means Pelidil's activities and the Shade of Naemon can now exist without Naemon himself actually being dead.
That in turn unravels a temporal strand in Greenshade, meaning we can now address:
Indaenir, and his Appointment as the Silvenar
It is an unequivocal truth that Indaenir must become the Silvenar (in Greenshade) before he is abducted for being the Silvenar (in Malabal Tor). The only way this can work, if you complete Malabal Tor first, is by putting the Green's Marrow region of Greenshade in a temporal bubble. Chronologically, that has to happen first, even if you actually do it afterwards, so this needs to be stated as part of the questline. Story-wise, we know the tales of the Spinners can have actual repercussions in the world - this is already a part of the Wilderking Court storyline in Greenshade, where the Spinner puts you into Aranias' story, thus affecting her memories, and the Valeguard story quest in Malabal Tor, where you have to fix the Spinner's story of the Silvenar and Green Lady.
In this case then, the story of how Indaenir became the Silvenar can be refactored into a Spinner story, with you being inserted into the story to ensure the Shade of Naemon doesn't corrupt the tale with the power of the Shadow Wood. As you approach one of the relevant locations (Driladan Pass, Dread Vullain, Verrant Morass, or Hectahame), a Spinner would appear (we'll say it's Spinner Maruin, but it doesn't need to be) and tell you that either: (if you've already met the Silvenar in Malabal Tor) the tale of the Silvenar's rise is in danger of being corrupted; or (if you already know about the Shade of Naemon by doing the rest of Greenshade) the Shade of Naemon is corrupting the Heart of Valenwood; or (if you haven't yet gone to Malabal Tor or found out about the Shade) the tale of the Valenheart is being corrupted by unknown forces.
Regardless, you must enter the story to cleanse the corruption from the region and ensure that the here and now is not affected by someone messing with stories of the past. If you don't yet know about Indaenir, you won't be informed that it is his story that you are trying to save. Now this could all just exist as dialogue exposition, or it could directly kick off a new quest (or a refactored "Shades of Green") with the objective to "Cleanse the corruption from the story of the Heart of Valenwood" (or something like that). Completing the whole thing would result in Maruin stating that thanks to your efforts, the story of the Silvenar and the Heart of Valenwood continues to be spun.
This indirectly also addresses the issues with Akkhuz-ri, Shazah, and Khali, as if they are here as part of a Spinner's story, it doesn't matter if they're already dead/corrupted/defamed in the "real world".
This also gives a good hook into ensuring the story of the previous Silvenar is appropriately "spun down":
Edhelorn, and his Death in Mistral
Edhelorn theoretically must die before Indaenir can become the Silvenar, otherwise, we don't need a new Silvenar. Sorting this one out is more difficult, as while the same "Spinner story" approach could work, your actions this time would be to specifically not change or fix anything, which counters the approach that this concept has taken before where you are inserted into stories to maintain or influence them by changing someone else's actions. (If you thought you could change the outcome, you could logically try to save the Silvenar, which is not possible anyway, and if it was, would break continuity everywhere else.)
This means that, as a Spinner story, you'd need to be inserted into the story specifically to understand what happened, rather than to change it. There are a few ways this could be implemented, but additional dialogue attached to Edhelorn himself may be the best approach - something along the lines of "You're not Indaenir" being an option during his diaogue about being the Silvenar. His initial response would likely be confusion, but as we have seen with certain other characters, it's possible for you to be detected as someone out of time, and so that can be used again here. "I do not know this Indaenir you speak of, but if the Valenheart has chosen him, then my story must already be over / must be coming to an end. I wonder why the Green has decided to ensure you are included in that story..."
Another option could be to have a projection of Indaenir appearing near the start of the Mistral quest to explain that you have been put into this story to see what happened here between the Maormer and the Dominion, and that while you can't change the outcome, this experience will help you understand how some of the events you have already seen came about.
A similar but different approach which doesn't rely on a Spinner story (and is therefore my preferred option) would be to imply that the Maormer storm or some other plot device connected to the Khenarthi storyline has severed Edhelorn's metaphysical connection to the Valenheart, meaning it has chosen a new Silvenar even though the old one is technically still alive. This could be introduced with the same "You're not Indaenir" approach, but the response dialogue in this instance would focus on how Edhelorn felt his connection to the Green being severed by the mystical forces behind that first hurricane (the one that occurs before you arrive). The hurricane not only trapped him on the island, but its mystic properties also mean that he can now never return to Valenwood as their Silvenar. (From the perspective of characters in other zones, they may have thought he was just killed in the storm.)
Something along those lines may be sufficient enough already to imply that the story here is taking place out of normal time, and can therefore also indirectly explain why Pelidil is here, even if you've already killed him in Greenshade. An alternative solution for Pelidil (which fits better with the "severed connection" approach that isn't presented as out-of-time) is just to replace him with a generic Vicereeve, since he's only mentioned by name in a couple of instances which could easily be changed to "the Vicereeve".
Having explained away Pelidil, that leads us back to:
The Death of Naemon: Secondary Dependency
This mainly refers to his appearances on Auridon, which would be impossible if he were already dead. For the most part, his actions here can be replaced by other generic Altmer or just removed, as they are mostly flavour text and inserts for additional colour. It might be good to add a couple of passing remarks to Estre as a counter to removing him if he's already dead, as that could give her additional motivation for her Veiled Heritance activities. Estre could also directly replace Naemon as the quest-giver of the Tanzelwil quest as she's right there anyway. Pelidil as well could just be removed from Auridon if Grahtwood is already complete, as he's only there for additional flavour.
The rest of the Estre and Naemon dynamic mostly plays out in Grahtwood (and Pelidil's there too), but that's just dialogue that can be removed or changed, and Pelidil has no major role so can be removed if he's already dead. Either way, we could even throw in a bit of a reference to the Shade of Naemon duplicate as passing dialogue from Naemon himself (either a poor attempt at praise for defeating it, or a passing remark wondering what Pelidil has been up to).
With Naemon's dependencies all untangled, that just leaves one loose end:
The End of the Tale: Treehenge
The quests at Treehenge only exist because Finoriell, the Green Lady from Khenarthi's Roost, is dead. The best solution here, while a bit of a cop-out, it to take the "Veya is Tundilwen, but only if you already know her" approach - if you haven't done Khenarthi's Roost, the character you assist at Treehenge is just a generic former "Green Lady". With a couple of tweaks to the character dialogue, the essence of this quest isn't affected.
And there we have it. A much-needed follow-up to my 2016 post, finally closing off my suggestions for making an already excellent set of storylines into a coherent narrative experience, regardless of the order you do the content in. At least, where the base-game content is concerned.
(I haven't played AD for a while, so please do call anything out if it turns out I missed anything....)
UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
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dazee✭✭✭✭✭
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Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sooo.....how would one play it in order?
Zone Order: Khenarthi's Roost, Auridon, Grahtwood, Greenshade, Malabal Tor, and Reaper's March
Following the Quest Order on UESP: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Aldmeri_Dominion
Or here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/525351/a-clear-step-by-step-guide-to-playing-eso-in-chronological-order
Fantastic writeup, Enodoc, by the way!Edited by VaranisArano on October 1, 2020 12:53AM2 -
Athan1✭✭✭✭✭
✭Never thought about this because I forced myself to play everything in order, following a guide. Quests could easily become unavailable if another quest has not been completed with a little bit of coding, no?Athan Atticus Imperial Templar of Shezarr0 -
It's sad that one needs a guide if they want their storylines to make sense. I get that the devs want you to play the game however you want, but, especialy for new players, it's very confusing.
One way of solving it would be to lock the main zone quests, so that you'd have to finish Auridon, in order to do the main quest in Grathwood, and so on. If you moved there before doing so, you'd be able to do the misc quests, but the main one wouldn't be available.1 -
Sinlar✭✭✭This one simply concluded that Tharn broke time somewhat with his recent ***'s.
"Seriously though, despite many comments by many about this matter, they have decided upon their course and are sticking with it. I feel for the new people who are trying to follow or construct some sort of coherent time line or story narrative.
It is clear that the whole process is due to promotion of the new expansions at the expense of these things.
which is really a shame, as the original content holds up very well still.1
