Make Proc sets crit again (and reduce the tooltips)

OlumoGarbag

There are 4 issues with proc sets at the moment:

1. Pve players want proc sets to be a viable option to stat sets. So proc sets got adjusted to a point where they are viable in pve but not really competetive.
2. Because of the tooltip increase and the reduce in proc conditions, its now easier than ever to deal huge amounts of damage by only using one skill in PvP. It doesent reward learning PvP anymore, when 3 proc sets combined deal more damage to your oponent then your entire attack rotation including ults.
3. Proc sets can't crit and they are not affected by your max stats, but they are buffed by penetration and multipliers, the most notorious one is Malacath which cant crit anyways. This allows to build a heavy tank without spending ressources in max stats and still deal insane proc damage.
4. Proc sets create an inbalance in non-Cp PvP, where getting good stats is significantly harder then in CP, whereas Proc sets deal around the same damage in CP and No-CP.

Its hard to find a Solution that satisfies everyone or is it?

All 4 of these Problems could be fixed by allowing proc sets to crit again but reducing their tooltip by around 30-40%. This would:
1. Make them very viable in PVE espacially for newer players or people that love the visuals of a specific proc set.
2. Make proc sets a good addition to your build in PVP, but doesent hard carry you anymore, so you still benefit of learning how to PVP and it rewards you for putting ressources into crit/crit damage
3. Fixes the problem with malacath and doesent reward building a pure tank anymore like it does now.
4. Helps balance proc sets for CP and no-CP. The CPs buff crit chance and crit damage of the sets to make them more powerfull in CP, where offence and defence are much more powerfull in general.

Lapin_Logic

Make proc sets Extinct again.
They were harmful to the game before because they take No resources and little skill to do More damage than class skills, it's the definition of broken.

The reason we do not get high damage, crit scaling, buff scaling Proc sets is that a heavy armour Tank could waltz through a dungeon doing 33% of group DPS just by heavy attacking or bashing or blocking or some other sleepy interaction.

Qbiken

Ye no, been there and done that and it was awful. And yes I read the part where you suggested that we reduce tooltips but I´m still going to say no.

Would also like to add that malacath should only buff damage that can inheritably crit to begin with (aka proc-sets shouldn´t be buffed by malacath) and sheer venom and hunters venom needs fat nerfs.

Ariades_swe

No thnx.
Just let them not be buffed by malacath and the ones that puts a dot on target should not be stackable on same target.

OlumoGarbag

We all know that malacath + proc sets is here to stay. Devs clearly want it or else they would have give the slightest amount insight why they want to ruin pvp. So this is kind of the only way to balance proc sets.

MincVinyl

What is hard to understand is the game design choice zos made by saying only some stats affect proc sets. While zos claims their goal is to help newer players or lower apm players. You can't seriously believe that those players that are just learning or are not going to take the time to learn how to play the game fully are going to go through and know what affects a proc set the most on their build.

Where a high apm player that has invested years into the game will know how to maximize and utterly abuse the damage output of the same proc set, while still playing at a high apm.

• Why does pen stat affect procs?
• Why does damage done affect procs?
• why doesn't crit affect procs?
• why doesn't dmg/max affect procs?

---

Idk seems kinda silly logic to me.

Firstmep

Id be okay with that.

Recapitated

That sounds less bad for balance and not too bad to implement. Not sure that they'll make crit, which they plan to rework, the hinge around which they'll balance proc sets.

Nerhesi

Proc sets with trap-choices prior to malacath.

There has to be a reason to pick a proc set - which means it needs to outperform stats-sets at it's intended goal.
The intended goal of damage procs is damage.

This means proc sets have to outperform base-stats for damage as they can't crit, they dont contribute to healing or shields.

MashmalloMan

The more I think about it over time, the more I think it would actually help balance them out to make proc sets crit.

Right now, we have an imbalance where more and more proc sets are released over time. They've become staples of PVP, but they're pretty garbage to use in PVE and the main reason is crit.

If their damage was drastically reduced, but could crit it would help 2 fold. In pvp you'd be able to resist proc sets via crit resistance. For proc sets to be strong again, you'd have to invest into penetration or crit chance instead of the current context which is stack defences while relying on free damage that can't be mitigated by crit resistance, while also being buffed permanently by +25% from Malacath. It's a win win for those builds.

The reason they absolutely suck for pve in most cases is because so much of our required dps comes from crit damage. We get 60-80% crit chance, +200% crit damage and stack all our abilities on trash mobs that don't move so it's obvious why a crappy 2.5k dps proc set is not worth it.

Pretty much the only proc sets worth running in pve are Relequen and some Monster Sets. Relequen only manages to be relevent because it takes time to build stacks and there isn't many trial sets to use right now, it's a good boss killer, but not much more. Anytime I find a pvp player using this on me, it puts a target on their back of "come get me, I'm new". Vicious Ophidian over sustains, with not much damage to compensate for stamina builds. Lokke just got heavily nerfed and is redundant with War Machine or RO. Kynes Aegis sets are irrelevant and no one likes heavy attacking in a dps rotation..

So proc sets being reduced by like -30 to -50% damage, but being allowed to crit would not only nerf their mitigation factor (crit resist), but also require investment to utilize them to their full extent (bye bye heavy armor, high health builds and Malacath free damage). It would then open PVE build variety where it's easier to stack higher crit chance. It would make it less punishing for newer players or players that just simply love proc sets because they have cool effects. I can't tell you how many set's I'd love to use in pve, but they only do like 2.5k dps which ends up being like half as bad as a simple stat set like Mother's Sorrow. Those same sets are "omg OP" in pvp, where you fire and forget and burn down targets.

This imbalance will not and can not be fixed. The 2 forms of combat (pve/pvp) don't behave nicely with each other in regards to proc sets.

OlumoGarbag

Exactly the reason why I made this post. Making them crit is the only long-term possibility to make them useful again. But they would need to reduce instant proc sets by alot more then dot proc sets so people can't just oneshot everything with critted instant procs like they did during viper/tremorscale meta.

It will definitely need some fine-tune but overall it would be alot better for Non-cp, PVE and PVP in general.

Vizirith

Nerhesi wrote: »

Proc sets with trap-choices prior to malacath.

There has to be a reason to pick a proc set - which means it needs to outperform stats-sets at it's intended goal.
The intended goal of damage procs is damage.

This means proc sets have to outperform base-stats for damage as they can't crit, they dont contribute to healing or shields.

The issue is just how much they are superior to stat based sets. Draugrkin is worth at least around 2.5k weapon damage with flurry and around 3k weapon damage on other abilities based on how much of a damage bonus it gives. If it read "when doing direct damage place a curse on an enemy for 6 secs and add 2,500 weapon damage to your dot and channel abilities when targeting that enemy with a cd of 9 secs", do you think then they'd understand (and yes I know that this description is underestimating its use). Meanwhile spell strategist had 500 spell damage and it was nerfed to 460.

Artorias24

Keep the damage, make them crit again but disable them completly in PvP. Thanks.

Firstmep

Nerhesi wrote: »

Proc sets with trap-choices prior to malacath.

There has to be a reason to pick a proc set - which means it needs to outperform stats-sets at it's intended goal.
The intended goal of damage procs is damage.

This means proc sets have to outperform base-stats for damage as they can't crit, they dont contribute to healing or shields.

Crimson Twilight would like to have a word with you. Also some classes like warden/sorc have sources of healing that arent dependent on offensive stats, so they can safely run around with 3k wpd and still have decent healing.

Other classes can rely on mobility or damage mitigation via heavy armor(might as well if we are using malacath).

And the main issue with most proc sets is that they are far too easy to apply(and you can proc multiple ones with 1 skill /light attack).

Every skill in this game is on the same global cooldown, but when you can apply 3-4 damage over time skills worth of damage in just 1 it becomes a problem, beacuse you can still play defensively, and have the sets do damage for you.

They also dont require you to use as much resources as if you were sourcing that damage from your skills, meaning you dont even need that much sustain.

amir412

This patch made proc sets dominant again(in PVP at least), and honestly it killed the whole fun for me.

OlumoGarbag

amir412 wrote: »

This patch made proc sets dominant again(in PVP at least), and honestly it killed the whole fun for me.

The thing is there are coming even more cancerous proc set's next Patch and they are not done yet with reworking all old sets. So the chances are high, that we will see alot more proc sets.

If we don't want every new proc set to destroy PvP until it gets nerfed, we need an overall fix for proc sets. And zenimax will definitely listen to the PVE community if they say "we want stronger proc sets" so either proc sets will be adjusted via battlespirit or theyll do what I suggested above.

Atm I don't see any other valid options. And "hurr durr delete all proc sets" is just not going to happen not for PVP and especially not for PVE.

Juhasow

I don't know is it solution with a future considering that next patch will rebalance (nerf) crit meta so there is high chance crit chance and crit dmg may no longer be dominant stats in PvE.

OlumoGarbag

Crit and crit damage will always be high driven factors in pve. They buffed major force to a whooping +20% crit damage and they even gave a new debuff +10% crit damage taken (and another 20% soon with major brittle) so yes crit damage will be very important for PVE but like they said getting high crit will be harder.