Fiery / Unrelenting Grip and Taunt

Dimski

I got myself involved in a discussion with the tank of my random dungeon group the other day. To prime Molten Whip on my magDk I am using Unrelenting Grip up to three times in a row. The tank claims it taunts the mob. There's nothing in the description of the skill that even mentions taunt and the site I got this idea from doesn't mention it either. However, a tank in my guild claimed as well that Fiery Grip taunts. What's going on?

Joxer61

it DOES NOT taunt! period.
Now, it will pull said mob to you if so morphed, and if no one else has hit that mob then it will attack you...but it in no way taunts and i dont care what anyone says...it doesnt do it...not a "soft taunt'...nothing.
That said, it should really only be used on bosses since immune to pull and that way you get 100% resource return and it primes your seething. Can also help a tank out to pull mobs into the group if needed.

(oh, and before anyone says it...the Tormentor set doesnt count. He is asking about the SKILL, not a set that uses the skill...2 different things.)

the1andonlyskwex

I haven't used it in a while, but part of the reason I stopped was that it certainly seemed like bosses would attack (or at least face) me for a couple seconds every time I used it on them.

Everest_Lionheart

Does not taunt, but you are definitely going to get some serious side eye from your tank if you start chaining adds out of the pile and over to you. When I was running chains one of the tanks I played with was OK with it as long as I pulled enemies to the same area. He’s the same tank that got me out of running chains a few months later and introduced me to a simpler and more effective rotation.

Chains can still be fun solo to stack everything up in your WoE and then snare with burning talons (another skill that ranks will give you the old side eye) and hit with engulfing flames. It’s a nasty solo fire setup. Chain, burn, snare, burn some more, giggle...

Dimski

Naw, the pulling isn't really a problem for me. When cleaning trash, by the time the rotation gets to "Unreleting Grip" they are already dead, or they weren't in the pack and pulling them in is a good idea. And I have yet to see a boss that can be pulled.

Joxer61

Dimski wrote: »

Naw, the pulling isn't really a problem for me. When cleaning trash, by the time the rotation gets to "Unreleting Grip" they are already dead, or they weren't in the pack and pulling them in is a good idea. And I have yet to see a boss that can be pulled.

bosses are immune...thus the use for resource return.

JackAshes

This skill is a “soft taunt”. It will not override a hard taunt but if there is no “hard taunt” ie pierce armor etc. present it will make the mob come to to that player over any other player present. Easy to test easy to see. What your tank may be doing is letting his full taunt expire without refresh. Through testing you will see it does expire as well. So for example if you you are say at a world boss fight and no one else around are hard taunting and you throw in a chain it will immediately come for you even if you show up half way through a fight. Again easy to test easy to see. Hope this helps.

Phaedryn

Chains do not taunt. If you are wearing Tormentor, then chains will cause the 5 piece bonus to proc, but on it's own the skill does not taunt.

It will trigger the CC cooldown however.

Joxer61

JackAshes wrote: »

This skill is a “soft taunt”. It will not override a hard taunt but if there is no “hard taunt” ie pierce armor etc. present it will make the mob come to to that player over any other player present. Easy to test easy to see. What your tank may be doing is letting his full taunt expire without refresh. Through testing you will see it does expire as well. So for example if you you are say at a world boss fight and no one else around are hard taunting and you throw in a chain it will immediately come for you even if you show up half way through a fight. Again easy to test easy to see. Hope this helps.

lol, there is no such beast in the game...what you are referring to is the simple fact that i stated above in that if no one else has hit said mob of course it will aggro you. Same as if you were running solo and pulled things in, they will attack you..or...if you pull mobs BEFORE tank has put a taunt on them, they will attack you. Thats not a taunt, thats simple aggro. Man I wish people would get a clue to this skill.....

JackAshes

Sadly you are so wrong. Easy way to prove this. Pick any dungeon. Vet, normal it does not matter. Take pierce armor, undaunted taunt and ice staff off your equipment and skill bars. Go in with just chains. With no Hard taunts around to screw with your Agro you will hold agro almost as effectively as using pierce armor. The difference it that the soft taunt wears off faster than the 15 seconds a hard taunt last for. It is closer to 5 seconds. But with the resource return you can spam it with minimal issues. Regular mobs are not a great test because they die so quickly but you will notice fighting a boss is almost the same as using pierce armor you just have to refresh it more frequently.

idk

Joxer61 wrote: »

it DOES NOT taunt! period.
Now, it will pull said mob to you if so morphed, and if no one else has hit that mob then it will attack you...but it in no way taunts and i dont care what anyone says...it doesnt do it...not a "soft taunt'...nothing.

That said, it should really only be used on bosses since immune to pull and that way you get 100% resource return and it primes your seething. Can also help a tank out to pull mobs into the group if needed.

(oh, and before anyone says it...the Tormentor set doesnt count. He is asking about the SKILL, not a set that uses the skill...2 different things.)

This. If it was a taunt it would specifically say so in the tooltips. I tank on DKs and use chains in dungeons, then root the mobs, and can attest that they are not taunted. If you use this on a boss and get agro it means the tank is not doing their job and you probably would have gotten agro anyhow.

However, I would not suggest using it on trash in dungeons because it means the tank cannot gather the adds as they intend to if they have any idea what they are doing.

Beyond that, I question how worthy it is to use chains to get empowered. DPS comes down to damage per action. Chains do such little damage and I do not think the increase in damage gained to a couple of light attacks makes up for that.

Edit: To the argument that this skill is a soft taunt, there is no soft taunt in-game as others have stated. There is no such thing and never has been in ESO.

JackAshes

Again do the test I recommend. Pick the highest DPSs you can grab to do the dungeon with you. The results will be the same you will hold agro on the bosses. You will hold agro on the bosses if you refresh it every 5 seconds. Baring any funky mechanics that cause agro to drop (ie charging the farthest player away from the boss). That you would lose agro on with a hard taunt anyway. You will function like a regular tank with the draw back of having to refresh it more frequently.

Just because a skill does not say anything does not make it not do the effect. Easy to see easy to prove.

BejaProphet

I don’t know who is right, but to help people to stop speaking past each other....

1. All parties agree it is NOT a taunt technically speaking.

2. Both parties agree there is not a thing anywhere described by the game as a soft taunt.

The argument is that there is a hidden mechanic in the game such that a chain or leash will gain you Aggro for something like two seconds on an untaunted mob. And that the most appropriate term for this is a “soft” taunt although it is nowhere acknowledged by the game.

Now I do not know if this exists. But...

To say they are wrong, because it is not a taunt is to miss the point. Nobody says it is a taunt.

To argue that the game never says there is a soft taunt is again to miss the point. Everybody agrees on that.

At the end I think @JackAshes makes Avery reasonable appeal. Try it. Get a creature that...

1. You know has not been taunted.
2. You know that enough Aggro has been established on them that a single move should not steal them.

Then cast chains.

Again, I’m just trying to clarify the conversation. Because I’d love to know who is right.

JackAshes

Thank you for being scientific and not judgmental!
Beja

Apox

Joxer61 wrote: »

JackAshes wrote: »

This skill is a “soft taunt”. It will not override a hard taunt but if there is no “hard taunt” ie pierce armor etc. present it will make the mob come to to that player over any other player present. Easy to test easy to see. What your tank may be doing is letting his full taunt expire without refresh. Through testing you will see it does expire as well. So for example if you you are say at a world boss fight and no one else around are hard taunting and you throw in a chain it will immediately come for you even if you show up half way through a fight. Again easy to test easy to see. Hope this helps.

lol, there is no such beast in the game...what you are referring to is the simple fact that i stated above in that if no one else has hit said mob of course it will aggro you. Same as if you were running solo and pulled things in, they will attack you..or...if you pull mobs BEFORE tank has put a taunt on them, they will attack you. Thats not a taunt, thats simple aggro. Man I wish people would get a clue to this skill.....

congratulations, you now understand what a soft taunt is.

BejaProphet

Apox wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

JackAshes wrote: »

This skill is a “soft taunt”. It will not override a hard taunt but if there is no “hard taunt” ie pierce armor etc. present it will make the mob come to to that player over any other player present. Easy to test easy to see. What your tank may be doing is letting his full taunt expire without refresh. Through testing you will see it does expire as well. So for example if you you are say at a world boss fight and no one else around are hard taunting and you throw in a chain it will immediately come for you even if you show up half way through a fight. Again easy to test easy to see. Hope this helps.

lol, there is no such beast in the game...what you are referring to is the simple fact that i stated above in that if no one else has hit said mob of course it will aggro you. Same as if you were running solo and pulled things in, they will attack you..or...if you pull mobs BEFORE tank has put a taunt on them, they will attack you. Thats not a taunt, thats simple aggro. Man I wish people would get a clue to this skill.....

congratulations, you now understand what a soft taunt is.

No, that is not what a soft taunt is. Joxer is making a very coherent statement.

The soft taunt stance is arguing for a three tier system to Aggro.

Step 1: The normal aggro mechanics of the game. You attack a creature first and as a result it attacks you.

Step 2: A chain or leash “trumps” the normal mechanics and steals the aggro for at least a couple seconds.

Step 3: An actual full fledge taunt trumps both the previous effects and secures aggro for 15 seconds.


@Joxer61 is saying that where some imagine they are seeing step 2, in truth they are only seeing step 1, the base line aggro mechanics at work. Because no step 2 exists.

Again, I’m not saying either view is right. I’m saying joxer is being clear and consistent in that particular post.

JackAshes

That exactly correct the 3 tiers you just described Beja! Again this so easy to prove and I have done so with 5 or 6 people over the years through simple scientific method as you described. Enough that they concede to my point. What will happen in the forums though is they will test it an never return to admit they were incorrect......

Apox

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q49snx_a5ww

mobicera

@JackAshes
You need to do 1 more test
You need to test chains on a target that has been cc.
You will see that chain does not in fact "soft taunt" if the target is cc immune.
So for example if you chain some random untaunted add and it gets pulled to you it will indeed attack you for a few seconds.
If you chain an elite that can not be chained and is not taunted chances are it will indeed attack you.
Now however if you chain an add that has recently been cc it tends to not infact aggro to you.
To test this just prog the twins and tank skinrai
Chain an add that someone just dropped a colossus on...
You will see it does not in fact run to you and you will need to inner fire.

Everest_Lionheart

mobicera wrote: »

@JackAshes
You need to do 1 more test
You need to test chains on a target that has been cc.
You will see that chain does not in fact "soft taunt" if the target is cc immune.
So for example if you chain some random untaunted add and it gets pulled to you it will indeed attack you for a few seconds.
If you chain an elite that can not be chained and is not taunted chances are it will indeed attack you.
Now however if you chain an add that has recently been cc it tends to not infact aggro to you.
To test this just prog the twins and tank skinrai
Chain an add that someone just dropped a colossus on...
You will see it does not in fact run to you and you will need to inner fire.

I’ve been guilty of this issue actually CCing adds when my tank was trying to chain and taunt them in with gripping shards on my Stamden. He saw it right away and said change the skill please unless I am gonna kill whatever I’ve CCed instantly because he was wasting rss. Have to watch your CC skills around tanks. It’s the same thing when I run MagDK. When I solo I’ve got talons but drop it in group because it interferes with tanks too much unless the tank and I work it out that I CC after everything is chained. That sort of thing can change his skill setup if we work it out in advance and he can buff the group in place of the CC.

Stinkyremy

Doesn't taunt but CC's the adds so they can't be chained by the tank and he would have to use range taunt to get the aggro away from you. As others have said, this should only ever be used on a boss or heavy enemy who can't be pulled after the tank has aggroed.
If you were using this in a dungeon with me I would have to explain and insist you stop using it.

JackAshes

There will always be exceptions due to hard coded mechanics that override hard and soft taunts. Most bosses are in fact immune to CC. Where I first uncovered the soft taunt chains have after years of tanking trials was the district bosses in IC. You can literally walk up to a boss fight down to 1/4 th of its Heath and with one chain pull it off of 5, 10, 20 players. 1 chain. Same goes for world bosses. Or when you run a 4 man in a Dungeon with just DPS. As long as there is no hard taunt present the agro is all yours. And it can be retained as long as you refresh every 5 seconds.

BejaProphet

@Apox i finally made tome to watch the video.

I’ll say just this. Neither side in THIS thread are defining soft taunts the way Nefas does in that video. Neither have I ever heard anybody mean what Nefas does when using that term.

Now that doesn’t really matter or make Nefas wrong. We all use phrases differently all the time and that is why we must always define our terms.

But when people in this thread are saying soft taunts exist, they do NOT mean what Nefas means.

When people in this thread are denying soft taunts exist, they are NOT talking about what Nefas was in that video.

Referring to my previous posts talking about “3 steps” in aggro. This thread is debating the existence of step 2. Nefas is labeling step 1 as soft taunt.

That’s fine if he wants to do that, the game designers never speak of soft taunts so that one side can appeal to an authoritative definition. But in this thread nobody has been working under Nefas’ definition.

Xvorg

JackAshes wrote: »

That exactly correct the 3 tiers you just described Beja! Again this so easy to prove and I have done so with 5 or 6 people over the years through simple scientific method as you described. Enough that they concede to my point. What will happen in the forums though is they will test it an never return to admit they were incorrect......

It is not a soft taunt, is just regular aggro. One way to prove it is use a regular taunt on a mob and then use the pull. What does it happen?

Now, use the pull, then another guy uses a skill that dmg while you are holding block. What does it happen?

Xvorg

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Apox i finally made tome to watch the video.

I’ll say just this. Neither side in THIS thread are defining soft taunts the way Nefas does in that video. Neither have I ever heard anybody mean what Nefas does when using that term.

Now that doesn’t really matter or make Nefas wrong. We all use phrases differently all the time and that is why we must always define our terms.

But when people in this thread are saying soft taunts exist, they do NOT mean what Nefas means.

When people in this thread are denying soft taunts exist, they are NOT talking about what Nefas was in that video.

Referring to my previous posts talking about “3 steps” in aggro. This thread is debating the existence of step 2. Nefas is labeling step 1 as soft taunt.

That’s fine if he wants to do that, the game designers never speak of soft taunts so that one side can appeal to an authoritative definition. But in this thread nobody has been working under Nefas’ definition.

Actually when sap tanks were used for tanking, the "taunt" was sap essence despite not being a real taunt. It was labelled as a "soft taunt" just as a term to define it, not because it was a soft taunt (in fact, sap tanks were practically deleted from PvE because it was the only spec that could do an "AoE soft taunt" back in the day).

the1andonlyskwex

Xvorg wrote: »

JackAshes wrote: »

That exactly correct the 3 tiers you just described Beja! Again this so easy to prove and I have done so with 5 or 6 people over the years through simple scientific method as you described. Enough that they concede to my point. What will happen in the forums though is they will test it an never return to admit they were incorrect......

It is not a soft taunt, is just regular aggro. One way to prove it is use a regular taunt on a mob and then use the pull. What does it happen?

Now, use the pull, then another guy uses a skill that dmg while you are holding block. What does it happen?

No, what @JackAshes is saying is that it isn't like regular aggro. Just doing damage to an untaunted target doesn't generally cause that target to attack you if somebody else already has aggro (and is also continuing to damage the target). Using Unrelenting Grip, on the other hand, will (almost) always cause the target to attack you, as long as there isn't a full taunt active.

BejaProphet

Xvorg wrote: »

BejaProphet wrote: »

@Apox i finally made tome to watch the video.

I’ll say just this. Neither side in THIS thread are defining soft taunts the way Nefas does in that video. Neither have I ever heard anybody mean what Nefas does when using that term.

Now that doesn’t really matter or make Nefas wrong. We all use phrases differently all the time and that is why we must always define our terms.

But when people in this thread are saying soft taunts exist, they do NOT mean what Nefas means.

When people in this thread are denying soft taunts exist, they are NOT talking about what Nefas was in that video.

Referring to my previous posts talking about “3 steps” in aggro. This thread is debating the existence of step 2. Nefas is labeling step 1 as soft taunt.

That’s fine if he wants to do that, the game designers never speak of soft taunts so that one side can appeal to an authoritative definition. But in this thread nobody has been working under Nefas’ definition.

Actually when sap tanks were used for tanking, the "taunt" was sap essence despite not being a real taunt. It was labelled as a "soft taunt" just as a term to define it, not because it was a soft taunt (in fact, sap tanks were practically deleted from PvE because it was the only spec that could do an "AoE soft taunt" back in the day).

I can totally accept that other people use “soft taunt” in that way and I just haven’t been exposed to it. I’m just saying that one refusing to recognize how the term is being used here is going to only ensure we keep talking past one another.

Xvorg

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

JackAshes wrote: »

That exactly correct the 3 tiers you just described Beja! Again this so easy to prove and I have done so with 5 or 6 people over the years through simple scientific method as you described. Enough that they concede to my point. What will happen in the forums though is they will test it an never return to admit they were incorrect......

It is not a soft taunt, is just regular aggro. One way to prove it is use a regular taunt on a mob and then use the pull. What does it happen?

Now, use the pull, then another guy uses a skill that dmg while you are holding block. What does it happen?

No, what @JackAshes is saying is that it isn't like regular aggro. Just doing damage to an untaunted target doesn't generally cause that target to attack you if somebody else already has aggro (and is also continuing to damage the target). Using Unrelenting Grip, on the other hand, will (almost) always cause the target to attack you, as long as there isn't a full taunt active.

because mobs attack the closest enemy that damaged them

JackAshes

I will take this a step further. I had someone in my guild argue all the stuff you guys were saying that are anti soft taunt after I returned to the game 7 months ago. I took him into Wayrest sewers and we went to the first boss. The huge crocodile. We were in Discord so I shared my desktop. He was able to view my fight on his laptop while we played together. He was playing the same class Dk so we could take skill variables out of the discussion. He soloed the boss to 3/4 health. I did 1 chain boss comes to me and does not swap back to him for 5 seconds. I do 1 chain (same result 5 second taunt). Mind you he can see all the skills on my bar. I am doing no other attacks at all just chain. Boss is obviously immune to CC I get full resource return. With one skill I hold agro on the boss refreshing every 5 seconds until it is dead. I don’t know what more proof you guys need. Just go test it yourself.

the1andonlyskwex

Xvorg wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

JackAshes wrote: »

That exactly correct the 3 tiers you just described Beja! Again this so easy to prove and I have done so with 5 or 6 people over the years through simple scientific method as you described. Enough that they concede to my point. What will happen in the forums though is they will test it an never return to admit they were incorrect......

It is not a soft taunt, is just regular aggro. One way to prove it is use a regular taunt on a mob and then use the pull. What does it happen?

Now, use the pull, then another guy uses a skill that dmg while you are holding block. What does it happen?

No, what @JackAshes is saying is that it isn't like regular aggro. Just doing damage to an untaunted target doesn't generally cause that target to attack you if somebody else already has aggro (and is also continuing to damage the target). Using Unrelenting Grip, on the other hand, will (almost) always cause the target to attack you, as long as there isn't a full taunt active.

because mobs attack the closest enemy that damaged them

This happens with bosses that are immune to the pull, it has nothing to do with range.

BejaProphet

This is diverging from the main point a bit, but...

I don’t think the community fully understands the base aggro mechanics in the game.

We say whoever attacks creature first gets aggro. I even teach this principle to new tanks.

But if we who have been tanking for years are completely honest...we’d have to say this is what normally happens. How many times do we open with an AoE and most of them come to us, and yet one or perhaps two, that you know you hit, go straight for your team. Bosses are especially prone to ignore the “opening hit” rule if you don’t give a taunt. After years of tanking I am convinced that what we present as the “base aggro mechanics” of the game, is only partial knowledge of what is going on under the hood.