Does anyone think werewolf is balanced in pvp?

blabafat

Does anyone unironically think werewolf is balanced? Major beserk, perhaps the best heal in the game (much better than templar, the healing class in this game), major brutality, you get resources back for using that heal, major defile, increase movement speed, increase return on heavy attack, increase weapon damage by a flat 18 percent, increase resistances by 10K. Much more.

Vampire, up to 30% damage reduction if you're stage 3 or higher. While being at stage 3, you have 60% less health regen, increase cost of skills by 8%, increase fire damage taken by 13%.

Vampire ulti costs 281 at stage 3. Vampire ulti costs more if you're stage 1. Werewolf costs 300. You can literally stay in werewolf for a whole bg, like 10 plus minutes. You can die as a werewolf, and you will still be werewolf. Vampire ulti lasts 20 seconds, and there are so many downsides to vampire.

I legitimately could not imagine if anyone responds to this forum post and thinks that werewolf is balanced. It has insane healing, damage, buffs, major defile, etc.

????


https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Werewolf+Skills

JinxxND

Honestly overall I think it's really strong now which is good but can definitely be abused much like everything in some shape or way, I do think vampire is really underwhelming compared to it and could use a 2nd rework

Zeuq

Werewolf is extremely broken, I don't understand how it hasn't been nerfed yet

blabafat

JinxxND wrote: »

Honestly overall I think it's really strong now which is good but can definitely be abused much like everything in some shape or way, I do think vampire is really underwhelming compared to it and could use a 2nd rework

Vampire is way worse than it, no doubt. But I don't think we should just buff stuff to be equal to other OP stuff. Some of the debuffs, especially the cost increase, need to be taken away for vampire.

Werewolf is just plain broken. It gives so many buffs and offensive utility and it hits super hard and is tanky. Players join BG with their ulti up already and they stay in werewolf the whole time. Reading the skill line of werewolf really shows you how busted it is. ZoS holds grudges against things that were once op and once bad. Vampire has gotten several nerfs over the years and werewolf keeps getting buffed. They should be pretty equal but different. Right now, werewolf is leagues ahead of vampire.

I already said all the stuff in original post. But really, werewolf is so forgiving. You can take so much damage and heal through it, but you also do so much damage and constantly apply major defile.

Sanctum74

Vampire definitely needs an overhaul, but I’ve yet to see any op werewolves. The only time i had an issue was fighting 6 of them but I still took out 3 in medium armor before i got teabagged by the pack. Personally I’m glad to see they are a viable play style now.

SmackNCheese

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Vampire definitely needs an overhaul, but I’ve yet to see any op werewolves. The only time i had an issue was fighting 6 of them but I still took out 3 in medium armor before i got teabagged by the pack. Personally I’m glad to see they are a viable play style now.

If you haven't seen any "op werewolves" I doubt you've been playing a lot of pvp. In the IC event alone I was solokilled by 38k werewolves that I had a 0% chance of killing because of the strength of their healing. They abused knight slayer and hunters venom to do the damage for them and spec'd into max hp and health regen. In BGs today you can expect at least one WW with proc sets, more than likely more. The fact that WW ulti is a high cost powerful ultimate is pretty cool, but the fact that they can indefinitely stay in said form is complete bs.

blabafat

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Vampire definitely needs an overhaul, but I’ve yet to see any op werewolves. The only time i had an issue was fighting 6 of them but I still took out 3 in medium armor before i got teabagged by the pack. Personally I’m glad to see they are a viable play style now.

I think anecdotal evidence shouldn't be used when balancing this stuff. I mean, like I said, looking at werewolf skill line you immediately see how strong it is and how much better it is than werewolf. I can find a few roleplayer werewolves in cyrodiil and 1vX them, but that doesn't mean it's not a broken ultimate.

Sanctum74

I can only comment on what I've seen for the past 5 years of daily pvp in cyro. Some things may look op on paper, but not so much in execution. Good players will always be good no matter the class, no amount of nerfs will change that. That’s just my opinion.

Btw the werewolf group i was referring to is one of the best ball groups on ps4 na and they have always killed me much quicker on every other build except werewolf so i still stand by my balanced statement.

TequilaFire

Yeah they are strong in an organized pack.
But they sure are a lot of fun played that way.

Zeuq

TequilaFire wrote: »

Yeah they are strong in an organized pack.
But they sure are a lot of fun played that way.

they are strong in a pack they are strong solo they are strong in any scenario

TequilaFire

So are many other builds.
There are a couple of sets out currently which are making WW stronger.

Ariades_swe

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Vampire definitely needs an overhaul, but I’ve yet to see any op werewolves. The only time i had an issue was fighting 6 of them but I still took out 3 in medium armor before i got teabagged by the pack. Personally I’m glad to see they are a viable play style now.

Ww player spotted

ZarkingFrued

Its a full on carry

Xiomaro

I think when people talk about anything being strong, there needs to be a little more context. In my experience, Werewolf is a crutch in 1v1s but not as strong in other scenarios. I would agree that Werewolf can be strong in a duel. But outnumbered or in group play, I think Werewolf is somewhat lacking.

They don't have the amazing buff stacking, sustain and combo burst that a Warden has. They don't have the mobility a Stamsorc or Nightblade has. A focused Werewolf is a dead Werewolf.

Sure, a Werewolf can 1vX a bunch of potatoes who don't slot CC, poison damage or Dawnbreaker. But then literally anything could 1vX that.

In a group vs group, Werewolves don't offer nearly as much as other set ups can.

I think Werewolf might allow someone to win a 1v2 or 1v3 where they otherwise wouldn't have, given their skill. But a skilled Stamden, Stamcro, Stamblade, Magsorc etc can wrack up kills much better than even the most skilled Werewolves. The difference between a highly skilled Werewolf and a mediocre one isn't nearly as stark as the difference between a skilled literally-anything-else and an unskilled one.

Chrlynsch

You mention they have major berserk, but no werewolf in pvp is going to use that morph because it also grants a more powerful version of damage increase to any enemy that is doing damage to you.

Heal potency comes from max health.
Heal sustainability comes from Magicka regen.

Increasing either reduces damage. Thus lowers the benefit they gain from their damage bonuses.

You say they have an incredibly strong heal. How so? Do you know how much a werewolf can heal for at 25k health in no-cp? I do, and it is laughable, the cost/heal ratio is absolute garbage. Without increasing your max health/magic regen werewolves wouldn't last 10 seconds without getting slaughtered.

Their bonuses all come at a cost:

-Extra Damage: Increased ability cost
-Extra Speed: No snare removal
-Extra Armor: Weakness to Poison, and Fighter's guild abilies

They lose many of their class passives, all weapon passives, world passives, guild passives while in form.

Every other build in the game can increase survival by increasing their primary damage stats, werewolf can not.

Werewolf passives may seam overloaded but that is because Werewolf is missing out on 5 active abilities, have you every tried playing with just 5 abilities in human form? They need something to give them their offensive gameplay.

Next patch their greatest form of pressure major/minor defile is getting nerfed.

Sanctum74

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Vampire definitely needs an overhaul, but I’ve yet to see any op werewolves. The only time i had an issue was fighting 6 of them but I still took out 3 in medium armor before i got teabagged by the pack. Personally I’m glad to see they are a viable play style now.

Ww player spotted

Never played ww, nice argument though lol.

blabafat

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You mention they have major berserk, but no werewolf in pvp is going to use that morph because it also grants a more powerful version of damage increase to any enemy that is doing damage to you.

Heal potency comes from max health.
Heal sustainability comes from Magicka regen.

Increasing either reduces damage. Thus lowers the benefit they gain from their damage bonuses.

You say they have an incredibly strong heal. How so? Do you know how much a werewolf can heal for at 25k health in no-cp? I do, and it is laughable, the cost/heal ratio is absolute garbage. Without increasing your max health/magic regen werewolves wouldn't last 10 seconds without getting slaughtered.

Their bonuses all come at a cost:

-Extra Damage: Increased ability cost
-Extra Speed: No snare removal
-Extra Armor: Weakness to Poison, and Fighter's guild abilies

They lose many of their class passives, all weapon passives, world passives, guild passives while in form.

Every other build in the game can increase survival by increasing their primary damage stats, werewolf can not.

Werewolf passives may seam overloaded but that is because Werewolf is missing out on 5 active abilities, have you every tried playing with just 5 abilities in human form? They need something to give them their offensive gameplay.

Next patch their greatest form of pressure major/minor defile is getting nerfed.

Those 5 skills take care of everything though. 10K armor / spell resist is making you overall way more tanky. Not everyone is using poison damage. I'd be willing to take 10K armor/spell resist and increase poison damage any day. The heal is very strong. No CP or CP. It's very strong. It's better than dragon blood, breath of life, no doubt. I haven't played the other classes so I don't know their healing power.

Chrlynsch

blabafat wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You mention they have major berserk, but no werewolf in pvp is going to use that morph because it also grants a more powerful version of damage increase to any enemy that is doing damage to you.

Heal potency comes from max health.
Heal sustainability comes from Magicka regen.

Increasing either reduces damage. Thus lowers the benefit they gain from their damage bonuses.

You say they have an incredibly strong heal. How so? Do you know how much a werewolf can heal for at 25k health in no-cp? I do, and it is laughable, the cost/heal ratio is absolute garbage. Without increasing your max health/magic regen werewolves wouldn't last 10 seconds without getting slaughtered.

Their bonuses all come at a cost:

-Extra Damage: Increased ability cost
-Extra Speed: No snare removal
-Extra Armor: Weakness to Poison, and Fighter's guild abilies

They lose many of their class passives, all weapon passives, world passives, guild passives while in form.

Every other build in the game can increase survival by increasing their primary damage stats, werewolf can not.

Werewolf passives may seam overloaded but that is because Werewolf is missing out on 5 active abilities, have you every tried playing with just 5 abilities in human form? They need something to give them their offensive gameplay.

Next patch their greatest form of pressure major/minor defile is getting nerfed.

Those 5 skills take care of everything though. 10K armor / spell resist is making you overall way more tanky. Not everyone is using poison damage. I'd be willing to take 10K armor/spell resist and increase poison damage any day. The heal is very strong. No CP or CP. It's very strong. It's better than dragon blood, breath of life, no doubt. I haven't played the other classes so I don't know their healing power.

Werewolf doesn't have access to Major Resolve. So really you are looking at a little over 4k resistance gain over human form using Major Resolve, or under 5% increased mitigation. I think that is a fair price to pay for being limited to melee only offense, as well as not having access to major/minor protection.

The werewolf heal isn't innately strong, it is only strong after speccing heavily into health, and remember that the more you spec into health the less beneficial your 30% based damage bonuses become. Hircine's Heal has one of the worst cost/ heal ratio in the game. Compared to other tank heals yes it may seam more powerful, but no DK is running around using dragon blood as a primary heal. Hircine's Fortitude is the werewolf's primary heal, they do not have a reliable hot like vigor, Rapid regen, or damage shield that they can rely on for survival only to dip into a burst heal when needed.

You also need to factor in the fact that werewolf doesn't have buffs like major or minor mending in order to boost their heals, where a templar very easily could. Making their breath of life more effective and efficient.

On top of that how many times can a werewolf heal before it runs out of magicka? What ways does it have to regenerate magicka efficiently? Know that if a werewolf is going to heal reliably and consistently during a fight it needs to make sacrifices to their damage to do so.

EtTuBrutus

It's broken strong. I don't even run the meta on mine, but he's loads of fun. I should not be wrecking ppl with my build.

blkjag

100% broken

precambria

It's a lot like most 2hander S&B builds, but more repulsive.

Luckylancer

AT the end all comes to numbers. If they nerf skills's numbers ww will be weak. If they buff it will be broken.

You forgot ww lose 6 skill slots. Their remaining skills must be balanced as whole. Their heal is strong because it is self only and costs a lot. Go check out other classes heals, you still have old mindset about templars.

Dovahmiim

Chrlynsch wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You mention they have major berserk, but no werewolf in pvp is going to use that morph because it also grants a more powerful version of damage increase to any enemy that is doing damage to you.

Heal potency comes from max health.
Heal sustainability comes from Magicka regen.

Increasing either reduces damage. Thus lowers the benefit they gain from their damage bonuses.

You say they have an incredibly strong heal. How so? Do you know how much a werewolf can heal for at 25k health in no-cp? I do, and it is laughable, the cost/heal ratio is absolute garbage. Without increasing your max health/magic regen werewolves wouldn't last 10 seconds without getting slaughtered.

Their bonuses all come at a cost:

-Extra Damage: Increased ability cost
-Extra Speed: No snare removal
-Extra Armor: Weakness to Poison, and Fighter's guild abilies

They lose many of their class passives, all weapon passives, world passives, guild passives while in form.

Every other build in the game can increase survival by increasing their primary damage stats, werewolf can not.

Werewolf passives may seam overloaded but that is because Werewolf is missing out on 5 active abilities, have you every tried playing with just 5 abilities in human form? They need something to give them their offensive gameplay.

Next patch their greatest form of pressure major/minor defile is getting nerfed.

Those 5 skills take care of everything though. 10K armor / spell resist is making you overall way more tanky. Not everyone is using poison damage. I'd be willing to take 10K armor/spell resist and increase poison damage any day. The heal is very strong. No CP or CP. It's very strong. It's better than dragon blood, breath of life, no doubt. I haven't played the other classes so I don't know their healing power.

Werewolf doesn't have access to Major Resolve. So really you are looking at a little over 4k resistance gain over human form using Major Resolve, or under 5% increased mitigation. I think that is a fair price to pay for being limited to melee only offense, as well as not having access to major/minor protection.

The werewolf heal isn't innately strong, it is only strong after speccing heavily into health, and remember that the more you spec into health the less beneficial your 30% based damage bonuses become. Hircine's Heal has one of the worst cost/ heal ratio in the game. Compared to other tank heals yes it may seam more powerful, but no DK is running around using dragon blood as a primary heal. Hircine's Fortitude is the werewolf's primary heal, they do not have a reliable hot like vigor, Rapid regen, or damage shield that they can rely on for survival only to dip into a burst heal when needed.

You also need to factor in the fact that werewolf doesn't have buffs like major or minor mending in order to boost their heals, where a templar very easily could. Making their breath of life more effective and efficient.

On top of that how many times can a werewolf heal before it runs out of magicka? What ways does it have to regenerate magicka efficiently? Know that if a werewolf is going to heal reliably and consistently during a fight it needs to make sacrifices to their damage to do so.

I main magden and magplar in CP PvP. I suspected (from being on the receiving end) that WW was busted OP, but thought I'd try running it to be sure. 5 Unleashed Terror + 5 Alessian + 1 malacath + 1 Domi. I had absolutely nothing in to either mag or stam recovery, however I did have 42k resists in WW form. [snip]. Literally all I had to do was roll if I was rooted, then hold sprint and occasionally press the WW heal to get like a 20k burst heal.

Additionally, WW can exploit a similar Xv1 mechanic as the one stamcro uses: stack sources of defile and artificial proc damage, then hold down left click to do 8k heavy attacks (gaining 12k stam each time), while the enemy can't heal at all.
That's arguably a problem with a lot of builds atm, zerglings will build extremely tanky and let procs carry their damage, stacking as many crippling Xv1 effects as they can. The fact that WW can apply AOE major + minor defile with ONE spammable ability however, makes it the worst culprit.

Less experienced players tend to look at this the wrong way. Usually something along the lines of "you gotta remember they only have 5 abilities to work with". These 5 abilities cover more ground than all 12 (including ultis) do on top specs for a lot of classes out there. I don't NEED a defensive rotation on a WW, I just hit the heal button once, it bumps my health recov up to 5k+, then i go back to spamming heavy attacks. On a 36k health tank WW spec, I literally didn't need to use howl to get kills... [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Fawn4287

Easy fix for werewolf is to just make it last 20 seconds and remove passives that extend it duration, its actually such a simple fix to just make it in line with other transformation ults. Even the fact that barring the ult gives 15% regen is overpowered and will make regen insane next update with minor and major endurance getting buffed next update, possibly even better than temporal for the buff alone.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Can't remember the last time when an enemy WW was the main reason why I died.
Keep in mind they don't have purge, so just keep defile and some poison dot's running on them and the fight will shift in your favour.

dougodell88ub17_ESO

I think its just IC where they really excel, you don’t see alot of them in BGs doing well mostly running for the it lives and being bombard spammed with sheer venoms

Chrlynsch

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You mention they have major berserk, but no werewolf in pvp is going to use that morph because it also grants a more powerful version of damage increase to any enemy that is doing damage to you.

Heal potency comes from max health.
Heal sustainability comes from Magicka regen.

Increasing either reduces damage. Thus lowers the benefit they gain from their damage bonuses.

You say they have an incredibly strong heal. How so? Do you know how much a werewolf can heal for at 25k health in no-cp? I do, and it is laughable, the cost/heal ratio is absolute garbage. Without increasing your max health/magic regen werewolves wouldn't last 10 seconds without getting slaughtered.

Their bonuses all come at a cost:

-Extra Damage: Increased ability cost
-Extra Speed: No snare removal
-Extra Armor: Weakness to Poison, and Fighter's guild abilies

They lose many of their class passives, all weapon passives, world passives, guild passives while in form.

Every other build in the game can increase survival by increasing their primary damage stats, werewolf can not.

Werewolf passives may seam overloaded but that is because Werewolf is missing out on 5 active abilities, have you every tried playing with just 5 abilities in human form? They need something to give them their offensive gameplay.

Next patch their greatest form of pressure major/minor defile is getting nerfed.

Those 5 skills take care of everything though. 10K armor / spell resist is making you overall way more tanky. Not everyone is using poison damage. I'd be willing to take 10K armor/spell resist and increase poison damage any day. The heal is very strong. No CP or CP. It's very strong. It's better than dragon blood, breath of life, no doubt. I haven't played the other classes so I don't know their healing power.

Werewolf doesn't have access to Major Resolve. So really you are looking at a little over 4k resistance gain over human form using Major Resolve, or under 5% increased mitigation. I think that is a fair price to pay for being limited to melee only offense, as well as not having access to major/minor protection.

The werewolf heal isn't innately strong, it is only strong after speccing heavily into health, and remember that the more you spec into health the less beneficial your 30% based damage bonuses become. Hircine's Heal has one of the worst cost/ heal ratio in the game. Compared to other tank heals yes it may seam more powerful, but no DK is running around using dragon blood as a primary heal. Hircine's Fortitude is the werewolf's primary heal, they do not have a reliable hot like vigor, Rapid regen, or damage shield that they can rely on for survival only to dip into a burst heal when needed.

You also need to factor in the fact that werewolf doesn't have buffs like major or minor mending in order to boost their heals, where a templar very easily could. Making their breath of life more effective and efficient.

On top of that how many times can a werewolf heal before it runs out of magicka? What ways does it have to regenerate magicka efficiently? Know that if a werewolf is going to heal reliably and consistently during a fight it needs to make sacrifices to their damage to do so.

I main magden and magplar in CP PvP. I suspected (from being on the receiving end) that WW was busted OP, but thought I'd try running it to be sure. 5 Unleashed Terror + 5 Alessian + 1 malacath + 1 Domi. I had absolutely nothing in to either mag or stam recovery, however I did have 42k resists in WW form. [snip]. Literally all I had to do was roll if I was rooted, then hold sprint and occasionally press the WW heal to get like a 20k burst heal.

Additionally, WW can exploit a similar Xv1 mechanic as the one stamcro uses: stack sources of defile and artificial proc damage, then hold down left click to do 8k heavy attacks (gaining 12k stam each time), while the enemy can't heal at all.
That's arguably a problem with a lot of builds atm, zerglings will build extremely tanky and let procs carry their damage, stacking as many crippling Xv1 effects as they can. The fact that WW can apply AOE major + minor defile with ONE spammable ability however, makes it the worst culprit.

Less experienced players tend to look at this the wrong way. Usually something along the lines of "you gotta remember they only have 5 abilities to work with". These 5 abilities cover more ground than all 12 (including ultis) do on top specs for a lot of classes out there. I don't NEED a defensive rotation on a WW, I just hit the heal button once, it bumps my health recov up to 5k+, then i go back to spamming heavy attacks. On a 36k health tank WW spec, I literally didn't need to use howl to get kills...[snip]

[snip]

1. That build you listed would have 35k resistance on a nord... not 42k
2. With that spec you would only be hitting 8k heavy attacks on npc.
3. You were not getting 20k heals on that build. At 35k you are looking at a 10k heal at best.
4. You would not gain 12k resources back on a heavy attack even if they were off balanced they nerfed the stam return on a werewolf a long time ago. You are looking at 6k in the right conditions.
5. You are saying the proc sets are why werewolf is strong... well your issue lies with proc sets...
6. You are not getting 5k health recovery on that build, and even if you were how much of that would actually come from being a werewolf? 666 from hircine's fortitude and an additional 180 from the the armor werewolf provides over human form.

[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Dovahmiim

Chrlynsch wrote: »

Dovahmiim wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You mention they have major berserk, but no werewolf in pvp is going to use that morph because it also grants a more powerful version of damage increase to any enemy that is doing damage to you.

Heal potency comes from max health.
Heal sustainability comes from Magicka regen.

Increasing either reduces damage. Thus lowers the benefit they gain from their damage bonuses.

You say they have an incredibly strong heal. How so? Do you know how much a werewolf can heal for at 25k health in no-cp? I do, and it is laughable, the cost/heal ratio is absolute garbage. Without increasing your max health/magic regen werewolves wouldn't last 10 seconds without getting slaughtered.

Their bonuses all come at a cost:

-Extra Damage: Increased ability cost
-Extra Speed: No snare removal
-Extra Armor: Weakness to Poison, and Fighter's guild abilies

They lose many of their class passives, all weapon passives, world passives, guild passives while in form.

Every other build in the game can increase survival by increasing their primary damage stats, werewolf can not.

Werewolf passives may seam overloaded but that is because Werewolf is missing out on 5 active abilities, have you every tried playing with just 5 abilities in human form? They need something to give them their offensive gameplay.

Next patch their greatest form of pressure major/minor defile is getting nerfed.

Those 5 skills take care of everything though. 10K armor / spell resist is making you overall way more tanky. Not everyone is using poison damage. I'd be willing to take 10K armor/spell resist and increase poison damage any day. The heal is very strong. No CP or CP. It's very strong. It's better than dragon blood, breath of life, no doubt. I haven't played the other classes so I don't know their healing power.

Werewolf doesn't have access to Major Resolve. So really you are looking at a little over 4k resistance gain over human form using Major Resolve, or under 5% increased mitigation. I think that is a fair price to pay for being limited to melee only offense, as well as not having access to major/minor protection.

The werewolf heal isn't innately strong, it is only strong after speccing heavily into health, and remember that the more you spec into health the less beneficial your 30% based damage bonuses become. Hircine's Heal has one of the worst cost/ heal ratio in the game. Compared to other tank heals yes it may seam more powerful, but no DK is running around using dragon blood as a primary heal. Hircine's Fortitude is the werewolf's primary heal, they do not have a reliable hot like vigor, Rapid regen, or damage shield that they can rely on for survival only to dip into a burst heal when needed.

You also need to factor in the fact that werewolf doesn't have buffs like major or minor mending in order to boost their heals, where a templar very easily could. Making their breath of life more effective and efficient.

On top of that how many times can a werewolf heal before it runs out of magicka? What ways does it have to regenerate magicka efficiently? Know that if a werewolf is going to heal reliably and consistently during a fight it needs to make sacrifices to their damage to do so.

I main magden and magplar in CP PvP. I suspected (from being on the receiving end) that WW was busted OP, but thought I'd try running it to be sure. 5 Unleashed Terror + 5 Alessian + 1 malacath + 1 Domi. I had absolutely nothing in to either mag or stam recovery, however I did have 42k resists in WW form. [snip]. Literally all I had to do was roll if I was rooted, then hold sprint and occasionally press the WW heal to get like a 20k burst heal.

Additionally, WW can exploit a similar Xv1 mechanic as the one stamcro uses: stack sources of defile and artificial proc damage, then hold down left click to do 8k heavy attacks (gaining 12k stam each time), while the enemy can't heal at all.
That's arguably a problem with a lot of builds atm, zerglings will build extremely tanky and let procs carry their damage, stacking as many crippling Xv1 effects as they can. The fact that WW can apply AOE major + minor defile with ONE spammable ability however, makes it the worst culprit.

Less experienced players tend to look at this the wrong way. Usually something along the lines of "you gotta remember they only have 5 abilities to work with". These 5 abilities cover more ground than all 12 (including ultis) do on top specs for a lot of classes out there. I don't NEED a defensive rotation on a WW, I just hit the heal button once, it bumps my health recov up to 5k+, then i go back to spamming heavy attacks. On a 36k health tank WW spec, I literally didn't need to use howl to get kills... [snip]

[snip]

1. That build you listed would have 35k resistance on a nord... not 42k
2. With that spec you would only be hitting 8k heavy attacks on npc.
3. You were not getting 20k heals on that build. At 35k you are looking at a 10k heal at best.
4. You would not gain 12k resources back on a heavy attack even if they were off balanced they nerfed the stam return on a werewolf a long time ago. You are looking at 6k in the right conditions.
5. You are saying the proc sets are why werewolf is strong... well your issue lies with proc sets...
6. You are not getting 5k health recovery on that build, and even if you were how much of that would actually come from being a werewolf? 666 from hircine's fortitude and an additional 180 from the the armor werewolf provides over human form.

[snip]

[snip] I have the build editor on hand from when I threw it together: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=274545
(note: health/stam recov TTs do not indicate boosts from the burst heal, which on a crit heal gave the maximum bonus of 666 before modifiers).

I literally don't know how to play WW, like at all. I threw this together, and went 140 - 0 in IC, with only basic mechanical knowledge like making good use of off balance windows for sustain / burst / pressure etc. It's the closest I've felt to being an unkillable god in ESO from 6 years in game. 2 of my mates did too, experienced the exact same effectiveness I did. One downside is that WW In it's current form is such a hardcarry that's it's no fun to play at all, after first few hours of being a god, the joke sorta wears off. In case that doesn't drive the point home, we dueled friends in strong single target focus PvP specs, and could outheal their entire rotations literally AFK, letting health recov do the work for us.

Apologies, you were correct, 12k was far too high for stam returned on a heavy attack. It is actually 10.1k vs off-balance, 6k vs non off-balance. These values are definitely fair and balanced for a heavy attack that takes about 1.5s to charge :^)

As for your point about procs, at one time we did swap out Unleashed for other sets, like Knight Slayer and Briarheart, with basically the same effectiveness. While procs do amplify the power of tankier builds, WW is a damage/survival carry even without them.
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

blabafat

Luckylancer wrote: »

AT the end all comes to numbers. If they nerf skills's numbers ww will be weak. If they buff it will be broken.

You forgot ww lose 6 skill slots. Their remaining skills must be balanced as whole. Their heal is strong because it is self only and costs a lot. Go check out other classes heals, you still have old mindset about templars.

"Their heal is strong because it is self only and costs a lot"

My dragon blood costs 3.5k with 3 infused reduced cost glyphs. It heals me for about 3.8k-4k if I'm not defiled, non crit.

TequilaFire

Not everything is about tournament and elite small scale which has its place and can be controlled by tournament entry rules.
Remember some also like to have fun and not be so serious.

blabafat

TequilaFire wrote: »

Not everything is about tournament and elite small scale which has its place and can be controlled by tournament entry rules.
Remember some also like to have fun and not be so serious.

We're talking about game balance.