DPS loss / nerfs communication

Tannus15

Could the combat / dev team please communicate with us what their goals are with the changes to the major / minor buff systems and the lowering of crit chance and the nerf to ranged light attacks and what the desired outcome of these changes are with regard to the current live levels of DPS vs what we're seeing on the PTS?

I just want to know what level of dps loss is intended (if any) or if things are meant to stay about the same but the sources of dps are shifting (minor berserk is nerfed, minor courage is buffed)

I've read over the u28-combat-preview-developer-update as well as the current patch notes and while the changes are well outlined and I understand what is changing, it would be helpful to see the overall intent.

Is the intent of the changes to lower dps, raise dps or to maintain the status quo?

Or are the changes for the devs to make life easier going forward, and the outcome isn't actually important yet? As in, make the changes as required to fit the standards and then balance it next update.

I don't pretend to speak for the rest of the community, but this would definitely help with my own understanding of what is going on and what to expect with this update.

mikey_reach

They are probably going to standardize the game while lowering the ceiling. Which in all honesty its fair game since its been a while since the power creep has been addressed. So expect nerfs if you are end game and if you are newer then its probably wont affect you much at all.

llBlack_Heartll

mikey_reach wrote: »

They are probably going to standardize the game while lowering the ceiling. Which in all honesty its fair game since its been a while since the power creep has been addressed. So expect nerfs if you are end game and if you are newer then its probably wont affect you much at all.

How are they lowering the ceiling though? A net DPS lose impacts everyone. If the top players are losing 10k DPS, so am I.
On a good day I can reach 60K-55K live, so losing 10K is massive for my self, knocks me out of some DPS checks, not to mention the damage mitigation nerfs. Also a massive impact on Solo Players.
Unoptimized/PUG Trial Groups will suffer.

ExistingRug61

From the explanation given in the update and patch notes, it seems to me that the intention with the minor/major buff changes was twofold:

1) Make the major/minor buffs follow a standard and conform with the set bonus efficiency, with the motivation for this being that it theoretically would make it easier to balance them when putting them on skills or sets for current and future.

2) Reduce the difference between having perfect buff uptime and no/poor buff uptime, with the motivation being an attempt to reduce the gap between the floor and ceiling (in this case by reducing the ceiling).

I don't think the effect on dps was a driving factor, likewise the effect on hps or tank mitigation stacking. Obviously the changes will affect these things , but I think it is a case of the changes being made for the reasons above and whatever happens to dps/healing/tanking happens, and can potentially be rebalanced later if they deem it necessary.

To me 1) explains why some of the effects got buffed and others nerfed and other unchanged, as the effective value of the buffs was different and now they want them all to be of similar value according to their standard. And 2) explains why generally across the board we saw a reduction in the the percentages, as this means the benefit of having good buff uptime is now less significant vs having poor/no buff uptime.

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

They are probably going to standardize the game while lowering the ceiling. Which in all honesty its fair game since its been a while since the power creep has been addressed. So expect nerfs if you are end game and if you are newer then its probably wont affect you much at all.

How are they lowering the ceiling though? A net DPS lose impacts everyone. If the top players are losing 10k DPS, so am I.
On a good day I can reach 60K-55K live, so losing 10K is massive for my self, knocks me out of some DPS checks, not to mention the damage mitigation nerfs. Also a massive impact on Solo Players.
Unoptimized/PUG Trial Groups will suffer.

As explained above my take is that the intent of the major/minor change is to lower the ceiling, as reducing the effect of the buffs it will have a greater effect on a player/group based on how good that player/group's buff uptime is.

So for the ceiling with near-perfect 100% buff uptime, they lose the most. The lower end with say the worst case of 0% buff uptime loses nothing. If you're somewhere in the middle you will still lose some somewhat depending on how good your buff uptime is, but not as much as the ceiling. So the impact is proportional to where you are in the range between floor and ceiling, which in theory should simply "compress" the range with the floor staying the same, ie: everyone will lose some percentage of their dps above a certain value, as opposed to being the same constant dps loss for everyone.

At least that's what I take the intention to be. Whether or not it will work like that in practice, and whether its a good or bad thing, will remain to be seen.
I certainly sympathise with progression groups and individual players (I fall into this category) and the like who are trying to improve but get arbitrarily knocked back a bit, even if it isn't as much as the top end does.

llBlack_Heartll

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

From the explanation given in the update and patch notes, it seems to me that the intention with the minor/major buff changes was twofold:

1) Make the major/minor buffs follow a standard and conform with the set bonus efficiency, with the motivation for this being that it theoretically would make it easier to balance them when putting them on skills or sets for current and future.

2) Reduce the difference between having perfect buff uptime and no/poor buff uptime, with the motivation being an attempt to reduce the gap between the floor and ceiling.

I don't think the effect on dps was a driving factor, likewise the effect on hps or tank mitigation stacking. Obviously the changes will affect these things , but I think it is a case of the changes being made for the reasons above and whatever happens to dps/healing/tanking happens, and can potentially be rebalanced later if they deem it necessary.

To me 1) explains why some of the effects got buffed and others nerfed and other unchanged, as the effective value of the buffs was different and now they want them all to be of similar value according to their standard. And 2) explains why generally across the board we saw a reduction in the the percentages, as this means the benefit of having good buff uptime is now less significant vs having poor/no buff uptime.

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

They are probably going to standardize the game while lowering the ceiling. Which in all honesty its fair game since its been a while since the power creep has been addressed. So expect nerfs if you are end game and if you are newer then its probably wont affect you much at all.

How are they lowering the ceiling though? A net DPS lose impacts everyone. If the top players are losing 10k DPS, so am I.
On a good day I can reach 60K-55K live, so losing 10K is massive for my self, knocks me out of some DPS checks, not to mention the damage mitigation nerfs. Also a massive impact on Solo Players.
Unoptimized/PUG Trial Groups will suffer.

As explained above my take is that the ceiling is being lowered because by reducing the effect of the buffs it will have a greater effect on you based on how good your buff uptime is.

So for the ceiling with near-perfect 100% buff uptime, they lose the most. The lower end with say the worst case of 0% buff uptime loses nothing. If your somewhere in the middle you will still lose some, but not as much as the ceiling. So the impact is proportional to where you are in the range between floor and ceiling, which in theory should simply "compress" the range with the floor staying the same, ie: everyone will lose some percentage of their dps above a certain value, as opposed to being the same constant dps loss for everyone.

At least that's what I take the intention to be. Whether or not it will work like that in practice, and whether its a good or bad thing, will remain to be seen.
I certainly sympathise with progression groups and individual players (I fall into this category) and the like who are trying to improve but get arbitrarily knocked back a bit, even if it isn't as much as the top end does.

I disagree, take the Warden for instance. If you are using the Warden class for Trials, Solo, Group Content etc you just were nerfed every single buff the class has access too. So if you are at the floor already with this class, you are now through the floor.


Minor Protection: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
Major Protection: Decreased to 10%, down from 30%.
Minor Maim: Decreased to 5%, down from 15%
Major Mending: Decreased to 16%, down from 25%

Minor Berserk: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%
Minor Vulnerability: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%

I'm sure other classes are the same and will certainly impact the floor.

ExistingRug61

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

From the explanation given in the update and patch notes, it seems to me that the intention with the minor/major buff changes was twofold:

1) Make the major/minor buffs follow a standard and conform with the set bonus efficiency, with the motivation for this being that it theoretically would make it easier to balance them when putting them on skills or sets for current and future.

2) Reduce the difference between having perfect buff uptime and no/poor buff uptime, with the motivation being an attempt to reduce the gap between the floor and ceiling.

I don't think the effect on dps was a driving factor, likewise the effect on hps or tank mitigation stacking. Obviously the changes will affect these things , but I think it is a case of the changes being made for the reasons above and whatever happens to dps/healing/tanking happens, and can potentially be rebalanced later if they deem it necessary.

To me 1) explains why some of the effects got buffed and others nerfed and other unchanged, as the effective value of the buffs was different and now they want them all to be of similar value according to their standard. And 2) explains why generally across the board we saw a reduction in the the percentages, as this means the benefit of having good buff uptime is now less significant vs having poor/no buff uptime.

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

They are probably going to standardize the game while lowering the ceiling. Which in all honesty its fair game since its been a while since the power creep has been addressed. So expect nerfs if you are end game and if you are newer then its probably wont affect you much at all.

How are they lowering the ceiling though? A net DPS lose impacts everyone. If the top players are losing 10k DPS, so am I.
On a good day I can reach 60K-55K live, so losing 10K is massive for my self, knocks me out of some DPS checks, not to mention the damage mitigation nerfs. Also a massive impact on Solo Players.
Unoptimized/PUG Trial Groups will suffer.

As explained above my take is that the ceiling is being lowered because by reducing the effect of the buffs it will have a greater effect on you based on how good your buff uptime is.

So for the ceiling with near-perfect 100% buff uptime, they lose the most. The lower end with say the worst case of 0% buff uptime loses nothing. If your somewhere in the middle you will still lose some, but not as much as the ceiling. So the impact is proportional to where you are in the range between floor and ceiling, which in theory should simply "compress" the range with the floor staying the same, ie: everyone will lose some percentage of their dps above a certain value, as opposed to being the same constant dps loss for everyone.

At least that's what I take the intention to be. Whether or not it will work like that in practice, and whether its a good or bad thing, will remain to be seen.
I certainly sympathise with progression groups and individual players (I fall into this category) and the like who are trying to improve but get arbitrarily knocked back a bit, even if it isn't as much as the top end does.

I disagree, take the Warden for instance. If you are using the Warden class for Trials, Solo, Group Content etc you just were nerfed every single buff the class has access too. So if you are at the floor already with this class, you are now through the floor


Minor Protection: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%.
Major Protection: Decreased to 10%, down from 30%.
Minor Maim: Decreased to 5%, down from 15%
Major Mending: Decreased to 16%, down from 25%

Minor Berserk: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%
Minor Vulnerability: Decreased to 5%, down from 8%

I'm sure other classes are the same and will certainly impact the floor.

True, Warden is affected by a lot of the changes.
Although it wasn't all nerfs - intellect and endurance doubled, savagery, prophecy and resolve were slightly buffed, as was the new breach if your a Magden.

And if you are actively using those buffs/debuffs you aren't at the floor you are above it, as the floor would not even be using those active buffs/debuffs.

I am not saying there is not a change for the floor or those somewhere in between - the point I was trying to make as is that to me it seems like the intent was to get a proportional change relating to how good your buff/debuff uptime is and hence is somewhat of a sliding scale of effect between the floor and ceiling.

And I would also add that I am not trying to defend or support the changes on the PTS, rather I was trying to explain what I perceived to be the developers intent behind the changes based on the comments given and the changes listed, which was what the OP was asking about. I will leave it to those much more experienced than I who can do the proper testing to evaluate whether the changes are good/bad/have met the aim etc etc.

Pevey

I main a warden, it is the class I started with, I love the Druid theme, and I am not a bandwagon hopper. With patch after patch of dps nerfs, I simply don’t bother with most new PVE content zos puts out. I just don’t understand that aspect of their combat direction at all, why they can’t see this is terrible for the game.

I am not a top tier player, by far, but I’m also not terrible. I did VMA enough times to farm 2 bows back in the day when warden was at its peak. Even made leaderboard. I have been a sought-after player in other coop games, so I know I have at least SOME skill. I completed Witcher 3 on Death March mode. This is just to give some context.

But over time, I just gave up on ESO endgame PVE. No new vet dungeons or trials for me, not in over a year now. I haven’t stepped foot in Kyne’s. No plans to. I’ll run some of the older vet dungeons when there is a new style page to farm, that’s really it.

I’ve stopped complaining at this point and just accept the game for the parts I enjoy, which is no longer endgame pve combat. I don’t even know anyone in game anymore who does that content. Even if I wanted to, I could not find a group for it. It seems limited now to a small number of very selective guilds who would never let me in given my current parse.

PS The dev team seems to take offense when optimized teams can actually complete their vet content (the horror!) and nerf everything those teams are doing in response. So the rest of all pay the price. This just seems so strange to me. No other game I have ever played has seemed to be offended when we actually find a skill or buff (gasp) useful. If the devs want to take away more of the power of optimization to bring the floor closer to the ceiling, then they need to simultaneously increase the base power of skills significantly.

llBlack_Heartll

True, Warden is affected by a lot of the changes.
Although it wasn't all nerfs - intellect and endurance doubled, savagery, prophecy and resolve were slightly buffed, as was the new breach if your a Magden.

And if you are actively using those buffs/debuffs you aren't at the floor you are above it, as the floor would not even be using those active buffs/debuffs.

I am not saying there is not a change for the floor or those somewhere in between - the point I was trying to make as is that to me it seems like the intent was to get a proportional change relating to how good your buff/debuff uptime is and hence is somewhat of a sliding scale of effect between the floor and ceiling.

And I would also add that I am not trying to defend or support the changes on the PTS, rather I was trying to explain what I perceived to be the developers intent behind the changes based on the comments given and the changes listed, which was what the OP was asking about. I will leave it to those much more experienced than I who can do the proper testing to evaluate whether the changes are good/bad/have met the aim etc etc.[/quote]

It would almost be impossible for anyone not to actively use at lease 1 buff/de-buff available to a class. This Statement ("And if you are actively using those buffs/debuffs you aren't at the floor you are above it, as the floor would not even be using those active buffs/debuffs") Implies that the floor doesn't use skills that have buffs attached to them. If that is the case, then the floor will never be close to the ceiling and to bring the ceiling to the floor? well that's impossible if the floor isn't using the buffs available to them.

ExistingRug61

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

True, Warden is affected by a lot of the changes.
Although it wasn't all nerfs - intellect and endurance doubled, savagery, prophecy and resolve were slightly buffed, as was the new breach if your a Magden.

And if you are actively using those buffs/debuffs you aren't at the floor you are above it, as the floor would not even be using those active buffs/debuffs.

I am not saying there is not a change for the floor or those somewhere in between - the point I was trying to make as is that to me it seems like the intent was to get a proportional change relating to how good your buff/debuff uptime is and hence is somewhat of a sliding scale of effect between the floor and ceiling.

And I would also add that I am not trying to defend or support the changes on the PTS, rather I was trying to explain what I perceived to be the developers intent behind the changes based on the comments given and the changes listed, which was what the OP was asking about. I will leave it to those much more experienced than I who can do the proper testing to evaluate whether the changes are good/bad/have met the aim etc etc.

It would almost be impossible for anyone not to actively uses the at lease 1 buff/de-buff available to a class. This Statement ("And if you are actively using those buffs/debuffs you aren't at the floor you are above it, as the floor would not even be using those active buffs/debuffs") Implies that the floor doesn't use skills that have buffs attached to them. If that is the case, then the floor will never be close to the ceiling and to bring the ceiling to the floor? well that's impossible if the floor isn't using the buff available to them.

I take your point that many of the buffs are either from passives or passives from skills, and these will likely be affected across the board regardless of where you sit in dps. That's why I tried to be specific when I said "actively" using buffs/debuffs, but I possibly wasn't clear enough. And I will admit that my assertion in my original post of the floor seeing no loss was too broad and not correct as even they will have some effect from these changes due to getting buffs/debuffs from passives. However I am still of the opinion that the intent behind the change was so that it had a greater effect on the ceiling due to the ceiling having better buff uptime from active skills than the middle or the floor.

And I agree with your statement about it being impossible to bring the ceiling down to the floor if the floor isn't using every buff available too them (well, unless the effect of these buffs was zero, but then there existence would be pointless and I assume no-one wants that). That's why I said I believed the change was aimed at reducing, not eliminating, the gap between the ceiling and the floor.

I would also add that I can also see that it is possible that the actual gameplay effect of this change may be disproportionate, even if the dps loss is proportionate, due to it meaning a player or group in the middle becomes unable to meet a dps check they were previously just able to make, while the ceiling is far enough above this for it not to matter apart from simply taking longer.

Anyway I think we have taken this topic on a bit of a tangent from the OPs initial question so I hope other readers and future posters will focus on that rather than our discussion (even though I have found it interesting and thought provoking it may not have been what OP was after).

llBlack_Heartll

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

True, Warden is affected by a lot of the changes.
Although it wasn't all nerfs - intellect and endurance doubled, savagery, prophecy and resolve were slightly buffed, as was the new breach if your a Magden.

And if you are actively using those buffs/debuffs you aren't at the floor you are above it, as the floor would not even be using those active buffs/debuffs.

I am not saying there is not a change for the floor or those somewhere in between - the point I was trying to make as is that to me it seems like the intent was to get a proportional change relating to how good your buff/debuff uptime is and hence is somewhat of a sliding scale of effect between the floor and ceiling.

And I would also add that I am not trying to defend or support the changes on the PTS, rather I was trying to explain what I perceived to be the developers intent behind the changes based on the comments given and the changes listed, which was what the OP was asking about. I will leave it to those much more experienced than I who can do the proper testing to evaluate whether the changes are good/bad/have met the aim etc etc.

It would almost be impossible for anyone not to actively uses the at lease 1 buff/de-buff available to a class. This Statement ("And if you are actively using those buffs/debuffs you aren't at the floor you are above it, as the floor would not even be using those active buffs/debuffs") Implies that the floor doesn't use skills that have buffs attached to them. If that is the case, then the floor will never be close to the ceiling and to bring the ceiling to the floor? well that's impossible if the floor isn't using the buff available to them.

I take your point that many of the buffs are either from passives or passives from skills, and these will likely be affected across the board regardless of where you sit in dps. That's why I tried to be specific when I said "actively" using buffs/debuffs, but I possibly wasn't clear enough. And I will admit that my assertion in my original post of the floor seeing no loss was too broad and not correct as even they will have some effect from these changes due to getting buffs/debuffs from passives. However I am still of the opinion that the intent behind the change was so that it had a greater effect on the ceiling due to the ceiling having better buff uptime from active skills than the middle or the floor.

And I agree with your statement about it being impossible to bring the ceiling down to the floor if the floor isn't using every buff available too them (well, unless the effect of these buffs was zero, but then there existence would be pointless and I assume no-one wants that). That's why I said I believed the change was aimed at reducing, not eliminating, the gap between the ceiling and the floor.

I would also add that I can also see that it is possible that the actual gameplay effect of this change may be disproportionate, even if the dps loss is proportionate, due to it meaning a player or group in the middle becomes unable to meet a dps check they were previously just able to make, while the ceiling is far enough above this for it not to matter apart from simply taking longer.

Anyway I think we have taken this topic on a bit of a tangent from the OPs initial question so I hope other readers and future posters will focus on that rather than our discussion (even though I have found it interesting and thought provoking it may not have been what OP was after).

Yes were are off topic! In the end optimized groups will always make the ceiling high, because they spend countless hours farming optimal gear and figuring out the best and most efficient way to complete something and not only that, are able to co-ordinate a whole group where everyone knows their roles and executes what they had practiced for.

frozzzen101

Oh, this absolutely closes the gap between best group and less optimal groups. This doesn't concern floor but rather groups with different degree of optimization. It doesn't address power gap between floor and ceiling but power gap between minmaxed groups and those that roll without trying to check out every box in meta handbook.

Some things are given in lower optimized groups, such as potions, warhorn, courage buffs which are easily accessable by virtue of supports just existing, but the moment it comes to optimizing your gameplay, such as coordinating current major vuln+warhorm+majorslayer source to get insane group damage window - it gets nerfed. Enough penetration was added to make Alkosh not needed in mag groups compositions making another skill based diferentiator for tanks gone. Now you can just pierece armor for 9k pen where you'd have to coordinate tank synergies to get that much pen just patch ago. Same can be said of minor berserk from healers. Big difference in healer quality results in big gap in minor berserk uptimes.
So yeah, you don't have to do as much to achieve optimal pen, easy accessable buffs are more powerful etc.
Some buffs/debuffs are changed for pvp's sake as well which was long standing issue with % mitigation there.

However new minor brittle(?) will take loooooong time to become mainstream in low optimized groups. MK/Zen are still not thing there and healers are using olo jorvuld worm hollowfang ignoring huge potential dps increase. Those consistent shakeups are bad for groups that can't adapt the moment new meta is figured out, and with frequent changes like this affecting weaker trial groups, I think this intent while good is just one step forward two steps back kinda thing. Good intentions poorly implemented.

llBlack_Heartll

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Oh, this absolutely closes the gap between best group and less optimal groups. This doesn't concern floor but rather groups with different degree of optimization. It doesn't address power gap between floor and ceiling but power gap between minmaxed groups and those that roll without trying to check out every box in meta handbook.

Some things are given in lower optimized groups, such as potions, warhorn, courage buffs which are easily accessable by virtue of supports just existing, but the moment it comes to optimizing your gameplay, such as coordinating current major vuln+warhorm+majorslayer source to get insane group damage window - it gets nerfed. Enough penetration was added to make Alkosh not needed in mag groups compositions making another skill based diferentiator for tanks gone. Now you can just pierece armor for 9k pen where you'd have to coordinate tank synergies to get that much pen just patch ago. Same can be said of minor berserk from healers. Big difference in healer quality results in big gap in minor berserk uptimes.
So yeah, you don't have to do as much to achieve optimal pen, easy accessable buffs are more powerful etc.
Some buffs/debuffs are changed for pvp's sake as well which was long standing issue with % mitigation there.

However new minor brittle(?) will take loooooong time to become mainstream in low optimized groups. MK/Zen are still not thing there and healers are using olo jorvuld worm hollowfang ignoring huge potential dps increase. Those consistent shakeups are bad for groups that can't adapt the moment new meta is figured out, and with frequent changes like this affecting weaker trial groups, I think this intent while good is just one step forward two steps back kinda thing. Good intentions poorly implemented.

Why would you want to close the gap on “best groups” and less optimal?
Of course a group that min/maxes and are organised, is going to preform better than a group that is less optimised and less organised.

It’s not possible to close that gap, it’s like expecting a foot ball team that doesn’t go to training, slapped together on the weekend to compete against a well coached, organised and planned team and expect the team that’s isn’t optimal to be competitive and then scratch their heads as to why they just got trounced and then figure out how to close the gap between the 2 teams.

It’s just not going to happen unless time and effort is put into getting better.

ecru

I really don't like how they're trying to lower the ceiling by making good buff uptime less rewarding. Coordinating perfect uptime on major/minor buffs isn't easy, and should come with rewards in high dps/hps/mitigation/whatever else. Generally in most MMORPGs rotating personal and raid cooldowns for good buff uptimes is what separates the absolute top tier groups from the rest, and I don't see any good reason to change that.

I don't even really raid anymore because all of my friends quit the game due to lag but from my perspective all these specific changes will do to top tier raid comps is to force them to stack more necros for higher uptime on major vuln now that there's no immunity timer, which is uh.. interesting, I guess. Either that or use some of the new sets that provide ult and keep it at 3 necros, whatever, my point is that it doesn't really change anything for top tier groups and more than likely hurts sub optimal comps by making the "best" comp not as good. That's all these kinds of changes ever do, honestly.

That mid tier group might have finally gotten together the gear and organization and people they needed to hit high numbers, and with these changes it all gets flipped around on them and being a mid tier group, they don't fully understand how to work around the new changes, so their progression is moved back. Meanwhile top tier groups adapt right away because they already either have every piece of gear needed, or understand everything they need to get and farm it right away, and we're right back where we started with top tier groups doing top tier dps, and mid tier groups struggling to get back on their feet.

llBlack_Heartll

ecru wrote: »

I really don't like how they're trying to lower the ceiling by making good buff uptime less rewarding. Coordinating perfect uptime on major/minor buffs isn't easy, and should come with rewards in high dps/hps/mitigation/whatever else. Generally in most MMORPGs rotating personal and raid cooldowns for good buff uptimes is what separates the absolute top tier groups from the rest, and I don't see any good reason to change that.

I don't even really raid anymore because all of my friends quit the game due to lag but from my perspective all these specific changes will do to top tier raid comps is to force them to stack more necros for higher uptime on major vuln now that there's no immunity timer, which is uh.. interesting, I guess. Either that or use some of the new sets that provide ult and keep it at 3 necros, whatever, my point is that it doesn't really change anything for top tier groups and more than likely hurts sub optimal comps by making the "best" comp not as good. That's all these kinds of changes ever do, honestly.

Completely agree, well organised team work shouldn’t be punished.
Also agree that these changes hurt mid tier groups and players the most.

Xebov

From the patches we got within the last year i see them following 2 major goals:

• Standardize everything. ESO is existing for some years now. There are alot of sets, buffs, defubbs and skills and it its hard to add new things and balance them. So they started to put in a standard that puts everything on or near a level and removes exceptions to make this easier in the future.
  
• Reducing the gap between the lower and upper end of players. This would make it easier to balance content in a way that the lower end sees a chance and the upper end still gets a challenge. The Minor/Major changes show this if you look a bit closer.
  1. Players at the lower end use less of these buffs/debuffs and use them less efficient, so they are naturally less effected. Players on the upper level are more effected because they utilize them alot more up to a perfect level.
  2. Damage Buffs that have a % increase have been nerfed (Minor/Major Berserk and Major Slayer). These buffs dont effect players equally. The bonus of these buffs becomes more effective the higher your dps is. This reduces the damage of high end players while having little effect on low end players.
  3. Damage Buffs that offer static increases have been buffed (Minor/Major Courage). These buffs have the same effect on all players no matter how much damage they deal. However the % increase of total damage becomes less effective the more damage someone deals. This improves the situation for lower end players, while having only minor effects on high end players.
  4. All defence and heal buffs have been nerved making them less important but also creating less of a jump when you get them. This has a high impact on balancing.

karekiz

Lower DPS = Better for non organized teams.
Lower Sustain unless you have X class doing casts = Better for non organized teams.
Lower Damage reduction <Maim nerfs> = Better for non organized teams.

How can you not see?

Kurat

By lowering the ceiling they also lowering the floor and most importantly the average pug. Some end game content is already out of my reach and next patch even more so. Instead of nerfing why not just release more challenging content for end gamers and leave dps as is so newer or average players can at least clear some older content. I main magden and currently only parse 78k. On pts I dropped to 70k. Optimized groups will also loose some dps but will most likely still gonna be able to clear HMs, get Goodslayers etc. while average Joe has to struggle even in content that they cleared easily before.
All the progress and work I've done in past year to get up to 78k is being taken away. Not cool.

llBlack_Heartll

Xebov wrote: »

From the patches we got within the last year i see them following 2 major goals:

• Standardize everything. ESO is existing for some years now. There are alot of sets, buffs, defubbs and skills and it its hard to add new things and balance them. So they started to put in a standard that puts everything on or near a level and removes exceptions to make this easier in the future.
  
• Reducing the gap between the lower and upper end of players. This would make it easier to balance content in a way that the lower end sees a chance and the upper end still gets a challenge. The Minor/Major changes show this if you look a bit closer.
  1. Players at the lower end use less of these buffs/debuffs and use them less efficient, so they are naturally less effected. Players on the upper level are more effected because they utilize them alot more up to a perfect level.
  2. Damage Buffs that have a % increase have been nerfed (Minor/Major Berserk and Major Slayer). These buffs dont effect players equally. The bonus of these buffs becomes more effective the higher your dps is. This reduces the damage of high end players while having little effect on low end players.
  3. Damage Buffs that offer static increases have been buffed (Minor/Major Courage). These buffs have the same effect on all players no matter how much damage they deal. However the % increase of total damage becomes less effective the more damage someone deals. This improves the situation for lower end players, while having only minor effects on high end players.
  4. All defence and heal buffs have been nerved making them less important but also creating less of a jump when you get them. This has a high impact on balancing.

[*] Players at the lower end use less of these buffs/debuffs and use them less efficient, so they are naturally less effected. Players on the upper level are more effected because they utilize them alot more up to a perfect level.[/quote]

[*] [*] ***It still doesn't change anything, Take minor Berserk - High End Players will use the reduce 5% efficiently and Lower End Players wont. Changing the Number doesn't change they way players use the bonus.


[*] Damage Buffs that have a % increase have been nerfed (Minor/Major Berserk and Major Slayer). These buffs dont effect players equally. The bonus of these buffs becomes more effective the higher your dps is. This reduces the damage of high end players while having little effect on low end players. [/quote]

[*] ***Again If Mid to Low end players are using say Major Protection to get them through content, its now been Nerf by 20%, which is a huge difference in damage taken, same goes with Major and Minor maim, which you can stack these 2 buffs, which is a 30-40% difference.. These Mid to Low end group are going to struggle with content by lowering these defenses, as they were assisting with getting them through content.
Berserk and Slayer aren't actually driven by high DPS, its actually Weapon\Spell Damage Damage. I could have the same Weapon Damage, Same Sets, Same Bonuses as a high end player, but may rotation is sloppy and I do 20k DPS Less.

Tannus15

@Kurat don't worry they are adding extra buffs to the 21m dummy so everyone will be fooled into thinking their dps is unchanged.
Except mag necros, they are going to be sad face.

Can we please have some honest dialog?

I mean, what is this meant to mean?

Now that these bonuses have been reigned in, we have also made sure to keep item sets in their intended SBE range, so we have done a pass on all sets that source these effects to ensure that. While each of these bonuses is normally worth 2 for Minor and 4 for Major, they are worth .5 less than their original value while sourced on an item set, since they are mainly sourced via the abilities and passives in the game. This ensures if you opt to run a set that grants you a permanent major or minor buff, you’ll gain some extra effectiveness on top of that to ensure they aren’t completely wasted if you gain access to the buff from another source. We have not done a full pass on class abilities since the SBE system is generally meant to be designed for non-abilities; that said, we will keep a close eye on class functionality in PvE and PvP due to these changes.

Am I wrong that this means that major / minor buffs from sets are going to be worth 1.5 / 3.5 and ZoS are phrasing it as some sort of buff? It basically means major and minor buffs from sets are worthless and you'll need to run the buff from an ability or potion anyway?

This is not cool. This is the opposite of cool. What's worse is this is confusing as hell, unintuitive as hell and brings no benefit to anyone for any reason.
Why have a standardised set of major / minor buffs that are all called the same thing but work differently depending on where they are sourced from but give no indication that they do so? I guarantee you that people who don't read the entire patch notes are not going to pick up on the fact that rattlecage gives you BAD major sorcery.

Pevey

Well, ESO is unique. What other game gives you negative progression, patch after patch? In seriousness, I have suggested it before and I will suggest it again: ZOS needs a psychologist and/or behavioral economist on staff. Someone who can explain why RPGs are fun and addictive (hint: PROGRESS), and which parts of the game are hitting those buttons and which parts are actually driving people away and causing higher churn than necessary for such an expansive and otherwise amazing game.

llBlack_Heartll

Kurat wrote: »

By lowering the ceiling they also lowering the floor and most importantly the average pug. Some end game content is already out of my reach and next patch even more so. Instead of nerfing why not just release more challenging content for end gamers and leave dps as is so newer or average players can at least clear some older content. I main magden and currently only parse 78k. On pts I dropped to 70k. Optimized groups will also loose some dps but will most likely still gonna be able to clear HMs, get Goodslayers etc. while average Joe has to struggle even in content that they cleared easily before.
All the progress and work I've done in past year to get up to 78k is being taken away. Not cool.

Your only talking about DPS here, not even the damage mitigation that has also been nerfed and there is no way to test that on a dummy, only if you actually test groups and trials.

idk

The combat team did address the changes for this update and you linked their comments in the OP.

I understand the questions and concerns but I doubt Zos can answer them. Precise has been buffed, the nerfed, and is being nerfed again. This is just one of many examples that shows Zos struggles to figure out how to manage combat in this game. It is like they are shooting darts at the wall hoping one will stick and solve all their problems.

Xebov

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

Xebov wrote: »

From the patches we got within the last year i see them following 2 major goals:

• Standardize everything. ESO is existing for some years now. There are alot of sets, buffs, defubbs and skills and it its hard to add new things and balance them. So they started to put in a standard that puts everything on or near a level and removes exceptions to make this easier in the future.
  
• Reducing the gap between the lower and upper end of players. This would make it easier to balance content in a way that the lower end sees a chance and the upper end still gets a challenge. The Minor/Major changes show this if you look a bit closer.
  1. Players at the lower end use less of these buffs/debuffs and use them less efficient, so they are naturally less effected. Players on the upper level are more effected because they utilize them alot more up to a perfect level.
  2. Damage Buffs that have a % increase have been nerfed (Minor/Major Berserk and Major Slayer). These buffs dont effect players equally. The bonus of these buffs becomes more effective the higher your dps is. This reduces the damage of high end players while having little effect on low end players.
  3. Damage Buffs that offer static increases have been buffed (Minor/Major Courage). These buffs have the same effect on all players no matter how much damage they deal. However the % increase of total damage becomes less effective the more damage someone deals. This improves the situation for lower end players, while having only minor effects on high end players.
  4. All defence and heal buffs have been nerved making them less important but also creating less of a jump when you get them. This has a high impact on balancing.

[*] [*] ***It still doesn't change anything, Take minor Berserk - High End Players will use the reduce 5% efficiently and Lower End Players wont. Changing the Number doesn't change they way players use the bonus.

[*] ***Again If Mid to Low end players are using say Major Protection to get them through content, its now been Nerf by 20%, which is a huge difference in damage taken, same goes with Major and Minor maim, which you can stack these 2 buffs, which is a 30-40% difference.. These Mid to Low end group are going to struggle with content by lowering these defenses, as they were assisting with getting them through content.
Berserk and Slayer aren't actually driven by high DPS, its actually Weapon\Spell Damage Damage. I could have the same Weapon Damage, Same Sets, Same Bonuses as a high end player, but may rotation is sloppy and I do 20k DPS Less.

The amount of buffs/debuffs used still varies. If a group uses all the buffs tehy are way more effected than a group that only used half of it. Thats the whole point behind it. The lower tier players are effected, but much less because tehy depended on much less buffs/debuffs. The top tier players however use all of them and are much more effected. It also creates a situation where missing one buff/debuff has less impact on the group.

JinMori

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

They are probably going to standardize the game while lowering the ceiling. Which in all honesty its fair game since its been a while since the power creep has been addressed. So expect nerfs if you are end game and if you are newer then its probably wont affect you much at all.

How are they lowering the ceiling though? A net DPS lose impacts everyone. If the top players are losing 10k DPS, so am I.
On a good day I can reach 60K-55K live, so losing 10K is massive for my self, knocks me out of some DPS checks, not to mention the damage mitigation nerfs. Also a massive impact on Solo Players.
Unoptimized/PUG Trial Groups will suffer.

The aren't.

This is just the easiest most *** way to address power creep.

We will see when microsoft finalizes the deal but i doubt much will change. The only thing that i can see changing is that with more money they could afford more devs, but we have to see if they are doing this because they do not have the resources to do better, or because this is their game design. Which is trash.

Pevey

I don’t think more devs is the answer to their problem with combat direction. It almost seems like too many cooks in the kitchen, resulting in no clear vision or any idea how to get there. IMO, the combat team has wasted countless hours over the past couple years needlessly tweaking and yo-yoing various things without actually moving the ball. Even necro was not a huge success. To most people I know, they are not fun to play. People have necros because they just wanted to try out the new class for a while and/or because they are required in trials. But they are clunky as hell.

katorga

The the content difficulty remains the same, then the blanket changes just put endgame content farther out of reach for casual players.

JinMori

Pevey wrote: »

I don’t think more devs is the answer to their problem with combat direction. It almost seems like too many cooks in the kitchen, resulting in no clear vision or any idea how to get there. IMO, the combat team has wasted countless hours over the past couple years needlessly tweaking and yo-yoing various things without actually moving the ball. Even necro was not a huge success. To most people I know, they are not fun to play. People have necros because they just wanted to try out the new class for a while and/or because they are required in trials. But they are clunky as hell.

I don't know about that, they had a lot of opportunities to approach the game's problems in a better way, and they just never did, they always go with that i call the lowest effort solution.

Which makes me believe they either are fine with it, and you are correct on your assumption, or they do not have enough devs to do it the better way.

SodanTok

llBlack_Heartll wrote: »

mikey_reach wrote: »

They are probably going to standardize the game while lowering the ceiling. Which in all honesty its fair game since its been a while since the power creep has been addressed. So expect nerfs if you are end game and if you are newer then its probably wont affect you much at all.

How are they lowering the ceiling though? A net DPS lose impacts everyone. If the top players are losing 10k DPS, so am I.
On a good day I can reach 60K-55K live, so losing 10K is massive for my self, knocks me out of some DPS checks, not to mention the damage mitigation nerfs. Also a massive impact on Solo Players.
Unoptimized/PUG Trial Groups will suffer.

I will let you make the math: If everyone loses 10% DPS guess who loses more or less, them or you?